^ Because the saying "Michael Jackson is dead" is something some can't comprehend. Same with some Elvis fans and 'Pac fans, who 34 and 15 years after the respective legends' deaths, they believe they're still alive "somewhere". And some feel Michael joins that cycle of "mysterious deaths". It's ridiculous really.

Timmy84 said:

^ Because the saying "Michael Jackson is dead" is something some can't comprehend. Same with some Elvis fans and 'Pac fans, who 34 and 15 years after the respective legends' deaths, they believe they're still alive "somewhere". And some feel Michael joins that cycle of "mysterious deaths". It's ridiculous really.

Ok, fine but it is only fair that she speaks for herself, instead of calling it ridiculous. I want to see what she has to say.

angel345 said:

Timmy84 said:

^ Because the saying "Michael Jackson is dead" is something some can't comprehend. Same with some Elvis fans and 'Pac fans, who 34 and 15 years after the respective legends' deaths, they believe they're still alive "somewhere". And some feel Michael joins that cycle of "mysterious deaths". It's ridiculous really.

Ok, fine but it is only fair that she speaks for herself, instead of calling it ridiculous. I want to see what she has to say.

Maybe I'm rude but I can't find no real reason why anyone would believe it. That's just me.

lazycrockett said:

It would be the space between the judge n the prosecution and defense are located.

Judge

well

Defense Prosecution

Thanks for the explanation. Wow, Reba must have lost her mind! Was she just walking through? Maybe she didn't realize this was a no no... yo know, like when you are at the store and you walk through... but it turns out tha you are BEHIND THE REGISTER.

prodigalfan said:

lazycrockett said:

It would be the space between the judge n the prosecution and defense are located.

Judge

well

Defense Prosecution

Thanks for the explanation. Wow, Reba must have lost her mind! Was she just walking through? Maybe she didn't realize this was a no no... yo know, like when you are at the store and you walk through... but it turns out tha you are BEHIND THE REGISTER.

Except for the two times she was at Michael's 2005 trial, I doubt she never really saw the insides of a courtroom before.

L4OATheOriginal said:

Timmy84 said:

Wait a minute, are you saying SISTER Rebbie was walking into the well of the courtroom?! I mean I understand hearing your heavily medicated brother being interviewed by Conrat (I purposedly spelled that btw) is madness and I feel her pain but wow.

yeah it seems that Rebbie was upset about what she was hearing and raised her hand 2 one of the court officers 2 be removed and the officer help escort her out but by going through the well, that's when the judge ordered the recording 2 be stopped and said "i cannot have people moving in the court .."

i got this info from watching HLN after the court had adjourned for the day

and it also seems that dr adams is mighty pissed about the implications and one his lawyers claimed they will be a civil suit against dr. murray later

Oh, so it was an honest mistake... and not Reba's mistake but the court officer... who should've known better.

Just reading this reminds me of how hard this case must be for the family. This was their brother/son that is being discussed.

So sad. The whole situation. They knew and dreaded that day would come. They tried to execute an intervention and it didn't work.

prodigalfan said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

yeah it seems that Rebbie was upset about what she was hearing and raised her hand 2 one of the court officers 2 be removed and the officer help escort her out but by going through the well, that's when the judge ordered the recording 2 be stopped and said "i cannot have people moving in the court .."

i got this info from watching HLN after the court had adjourned for the day

and it also seems that dr adams is mighty pissed about the implications and one his lawyers claimed they will be a civil suit against dr. murray later

Oh, so it was an honest mistake... and not Reba's mistake but the court officer... who should've known better.

Just reading this reminds me of how hard this case must be for the family. This was their brother/son that is being discussed.

So sad. The whole situation. They knew and dreaded that day would come. They tried to execute an intervention and it didn't work.

Yeah though I've been hard on the family, I've no doubt they're still having a hard time comprehending the fact their brother/son is dead. I don't think the family will easily get over it either. This was the man that made them famous, and now they're left is memories. It's gotta be rough on ALL of them.

I understand the inability to except that Michael is dead, it's similar to Bruce Lee, Tupac, Elvis and the rest. But with Michael, it was even more pronounced, Mike's death was just an utter shock to the entire world, you know, there was a psychologist named Jung who had what he called "archetypes" our heroes fit into them as the "superman", "Trickster", etc.., I think Mike tapped into so many of those archetypes and I do believe he had a full fledged Messiah complex (which all the true rock artists do to some degree) and he was godlike, gods don't die, I remember when he died it was like hearing the sun wouldn't be rising the next morning, truly, sounds fanatical but detractors as well as fans made it clear how potent a figure the man was, we can all remember, it was pandemonium that day, the internet crashed! Who else could do that? And when this coroner says that she showed "good faith" by trying to revive him after he was obviously dead, I don't believe that for a second, people tried to bring elvis back from the dead in the same way and you know Bruce Lee had a near death experience before his real death, the doctors were quoted as saying "we can't afford to lose him" as they frantically did everything to save his life. These kinds of men have so much significance and vitality that it just doesnt' seem possible that they can die. Life's like that though, sometimes I'll go through town and see a streetperson who should have died a long time ago from his lifestyle and then you have people who bump their heads the wrong way and die. Life's like that.

Yeah I thought of the superman analogy too when it was happening, and the thought of him not being alive when waking up was awful

lazycrockett said:

This will not be a popular opinion.

While the first week the prosecution was doing very well , this week thus far they have stalled.

This week has thus far been basically character assassination. Numerous girlfriends who come off as nothing more than opportunist at the very least and the Murrray buying large amounts of propafol.

Neither of these as of yet lead to proving involuntary manslaughter. Maybe the prosecution has something planned next week and is lead up to it. but I would think that if they had a stronger case they wouldnt be wasting time on who Murray was hooking up with.

Their purpose for bringing in the girlfriends it 2 fold. One, they do want to show what type of guy he is, a womanizer/bad character. Secondly, and most importantly, they are showing that Murray was not diligently tending to MJ in the hours and even minutes before he realized that MJ was in trouble, which they have shown beyond a reasonable doubt.

^Im fine with them using a girlfriend to establish a timeline, but the bad character/womanizer shit has nothing with involuntary manslaughter. If the prosection has to resort to that then they know they don't have a strong case.

tmo1965 said:

lazycrockett said:

This will not be a popular opinion.

While the first week the prosecution was doing very well , this week thus far they have stalled.

This week has thus far been basically character assassination. Numerous girlfriends who come off as nothing more than opportunist at the very least and the Murrray buying large amounts of propafol.

Neither of these as of yet lead to proving involuntary manslaughter. Maybe the prosecution has something planned next week and is lead up to it. but I would think that if they had a stronger case they wouldnt be wasting time on who Murray was hooking up with.

Their purpose for bringing in the girlfriends it 2 fold. One, they do want to show what type of guy he is, a womanizer/bad character. Secondly, and most importantly, they are showing that Murray was not diligently tending to MJ in the hours and even minutes before he realized that MJ was in trouble, which they have shown beyond a reasonable doubt.

I said yesterday when the girl was mentioned that the girl was used to show the doctor's shortcomings.

Also from what Im hearing from CNN and other media is that the first police interview help Murray more than the prosecution. Even HLN gave props to Murray and those anchors are carrying pitchforks.

lazycrockett said:

Also from what Im hearing from CNN and other media is that the first police interview help Murray more than the prosecution. Even HLN gave props to Murray and those anchors are carrying pitchforks.

what is your opinion of that interview? Everyone so far is saying it's incriminating and full of contradictions.

^As of yet I haven't had time to listen to it, I just managed to catch a couple of updates this weekend.

From what CNN was saying that Murray comes off as a doctor concerned bout his patient and gives a long history of what other doctors had done to MJ and what was expected of him to also do.

lazycrockett said:

Also from what Im hearing from CNN and other media is that the first police interview help Murray more than the prosecution. Even HLN gave props to Murray and those anchors are carrying pitchforks.

I take this was BEFORE the propofol was discovered. I wouldn't have kissed his ass first time out.

No, not at all, in Vince Foster's case, I suspect much more a murder, some plot to get rid of him by the people he had annoyed earlier on in his career. I've lived in Russia for 8 years and I've observed that in political or business fights in high circles, not to mention the mafia-related ones, the 'suicide' theory is wildly used to cover such suspicious/unexplained deaths of opponents.

The analogy I found with MJ is that while I am open to the possibility of him faking his death, I also still think that a murder is possible - he had too many enemies. In any case, there is strong evidence to me that this 'death' has not been caused by such simple causes as are being mentioned now in court, that there is some serious foul play, tampering with the facts/truth on quite a high level.

Why I think so? For anyone who cares to look, there have been scores of reports [now posted online] of very strange facts/events/occurrences [from his 1.80 meters fitting into such a small coffin in the first place, then the photoshopped ambulance picture (and the gurney one I suspect is too), his relatives making contradictory statements to the press (Jermaine making a slip and saying to an interviewer that MJ 'was driven to the airport, oops, I mean the cemetery on 25/09', the tomb that doesn't bear his name, the fact that those who speak out about their suspicions of a faked death are then harassed to shut up (like the one in the video) - why would they be, if there is nothing to hide?.. All the cash-pissing business deals that his family is now involved in, etc.., and now the strange voice recording, among many other things in these court proceedings...

These are only a handful of strange things to me, among many, many other 'unexplainable' data.

But another fact that raises my level of suspicion is the fact that MJ himself was a master at manipulating the media, and this on a huge, global level. It's a known fact that he was a master at disguising himself, and also that he has faked medical emergencies in the past, complete with mass international coverage, several times. and yes, that includes by CNN an the major networks.

I don't think that this one is beyond his abilities:)..

So that's in the case of a faked death.

And in the case of dirty deals and a murder case: I believe that's very possible too (for the reasons I cited above), and also for the simple fact that I believe that, sadly, corruption and dirty scams do happen on a mass level in this world. In Russia they call this 'contract killing'. It wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last I fear.

I do wish to add that I don't really relate to the whole emotional thing about 'wishing and believing him to still be alive, not accepting reality, etc. Maybe that's how many fans feel, and fair enough, they are entitled to their emotions. But no matter how much I love the man & his music, on a personal, emotional level I don't feel that related to him to the point that I couldn't accept his death as real fact. I'm only waiting for evidence and the truth about still unanswered and burning questions on this case.

And as for the fans' gathering in Forest Lawn: no I didn't see anything suspicious or strange going on. Admittedly, it was my very first time at such an event [my fandom - of Prince mostly - and other artists has always been confined to attending concerts, nothing else]. So it was just lots of singing and prayers, and also 'I/We love you Michael' from the crowds - all this was quite a thing to see, it was hard not to feel some special 'feel' or his presence somehow in the air.

It was hard also not to be taken by the place: it's beautiful [rolling hills all around, a beautiful, quite impressive architectural structure where his mausoleum is], and this being June, it was a lovely sunny day. I am now joking with my 83 year old mum that I have found for her a resting place she would love:) [Sorry about the dark humor, couldn't help it! ]

There are 3 pictures I took at Forest Lawn on that day at this link, which I hope is still accessible [a friend of mine told me he had problems, so I have made it 'public']. [the other pics are just general LA ones]:

https://picasaweb.google.com/105700894385821705594/LosAngelesJune2011?authkey=Gv1sRgCPGb47GI0JbW2wE

angel345 said:

Flo6 said:

I must say I agree [about overthinking & my imagination brain cells going overdrive, esp. about the Vince Foster analogy] Some people see some links and connections about the so-called high-profile murders and unexplained disappearances, which some say are tied to the Illuminati etc.

My ultimate stance on this case though is that ultimately: 1] I personally don't know anything for sure [I'm just advancing theories/possibilities], and 2] that I do smell something fishy/not right or straightforward about MJ's disappearance, although like I said, I don't know what...

[Edited 10/7/11 23:39pm]

So, with the same analogy, would you say that Vince Foster faked his death? I've been hearing about the so-called death hoax of MJ for the past two years. Was there something strange about the atmosphere when you visit Forest Lawn, aside from the fact that it's a cemetary? I am trying to figure out what is causing you to think or suspect anything foul.

Flo, I would dismiss hoax theories, but when I heard the Jermaine interview, I entertained the slightest chance for awhile, but also knew I was doing it to give myself a break from crying and knew I could not go on doing that, so I choose to accept he is gone, dead or alive.

Timmy84 said:

lazycrockett said:

Also from what Im hearing from CNN and other media is that the first police interview help Murray more than the prosecution. Even HLN gave props to Murray and those anchors are carrying pitchforks.

I take this was BEFORE the propofol was discovered. I wouldn't have kissed his ass first time out.

I guess in the first interview Murray talked in depth bout the many years and many doctors that had no problem giving MJ propofol. Usually on a daily basis, also in the interview Murray talks bout how most of MJ's veins were dried up.

Before I go any further Im going to have to find the interview and listen to it, before I go into too much speculation.

double post.

[Edited 10/9/11 0:41am]

lazycrockett said:

Timmy84 said:

I take this was BEFORE the propofol was discovered. I wouldn't have kissed his ass first time out.

I guess in the first interview Murray talked in depth bout the many years and many doctors that had no problem giving MJ propofol. Usually on a daily basis, also in the interview Murray talks bout how most of MJ's veins were dried up.

Before I go any further Im going to have to find the interview and listen to it, before I go into too much speculation.

lol I wonder if years of experience matter anymore.

Thanks for that! Funny how some people claim to know what's in my head:)

angel345 said:

Timmy84 said:

^ Because the saying "Michael Jackson is dead" is something some can't comprehend. Same with some Elvis fans and 'Pac fans, who 34 and 15 years after the respective legends' deaths, they believe they're still alive "somewhere". And some feel Michael joins that cycle of "mysterious deaths". It's ridiculous really.

Ok, fine but it is only fair that she speaks for herself, instead of calling it ridiculous. I want to see what she has to say.

I certainly wouldn't argue with that... [the bold text].

Although one can't deny he has achieved a sort of 'immortality' through his music/art & legacy. I would look at it this way, alphastreet, if I were you, and try not to feel sad when thinking of him, but joyful & grateful for what he has left us [the songs, etc].

When I have his music in my apartment, when I'm on my own and in close quarters vs. through covers in loud concerts or headphones in the street, that's when I feel his 'presence' so to speak and that he is still 'alive' somehow [even in the figurative sense of course].

alphastreet said:

Flo, I would dismiss hoax theories, but when I heard the Jermaine interview, I entertained the slightest chance for awhile, but also knew I was doing it to give myself a break from crying and knew I could not go on doing that, so I choose to accept he is gone, dead or alive.

He's too full of life to feel dead and I didn't feel it for the longest time cause I was numb and couldn't cry right away though my heart was aching and broken and I'm still not myself from all this. But now I feel like the media circus is keeping his cariacture alive and feel like mj the person is gone and the crap they say is still there though we know info on him.

I don't get why you still pay attention to the nonsense. Michael taught me to shut it off. Y'all should do the same if it bothers you that much. I always said Michael transcended into another universe... wherever he's at (and it's not on this earth!), he's at peace.

Yeah I used to know how to "shut it off", but I have an issue of dwelling and not being able to control it if I'm hooked on something. I keep saying too he's at peace, and though I pray for his soul to be at peace, I feel foolish too cause why shouldn't it be? The minute he died, I was saying too he was put through hell and it's over now, but the more the shock wore off and the more we learned, I cried.

Flo6 said:

Why I think so? For anyone who cares to look, there have been scores of reports [now posted online] of very strange facts/events/occurrences [from his 1.80 meters fitting into such a small coffin in the first place, then the photoshopped ambulance picture (and the gurney one I suspect is too), his relatives making contradictory statements to the press (Jermaine making a slip and saying to an interviewer that MJ 'was driven to the airport, oops, I mean the cemetery on 25/09', the tomb that doesn't bear his name, the fact that those who speak out about their suspicions of a faked death are then harassed to shut up (like the one in the video) - why would they be, if there is nothing to hide?.. All the cash-pissing business deals that his family is now involved in, etc.., and now the strange voice recording, among many other things in these court proceedings...

These are only a handful of strange things to me, among many, many other 'unexplainable' data.

But another fact that raises my level of suspicion is the fact that MJ himself was a master at manipulating the media, and this on a huge, global level. It's a known fact that he was a master at disguising himself, and also that he has faked medical emergencies in the past, complete with mass international coverage, several times. and yes, that includes by CNN an the major networks.

I don't think that this one is beyond his abilities:)..

So that's in the case of a faked death.

Geez, we had the woman, who took the picture testifying in court! So your imagined issue of an official picture, used by the prosecution is totally void!

About the coffin... did you personally measure it?? It's a very massive coffin, a wide one, so it may appear shorter than it actually is!

As for Jermaines "slip up", who knows what hes acutally thinking about... maybe one should listen to the whole interview again.

And the reason why those who believe in a hoax are harrassed is probably because the mere thought of it is ridiculous and in a way insulting to to Michael and to the people who are mourning his death.

So Michael was a master at manipulating the press? Yeah right, he was so great at that, that he got nothing but bad press the last 15 years of his life. And yes, he has faked so many medical emergencies with hundreds of people coming to hospitals, like when he got burned doing a commercial for Pepsi and when he collapsed during rehearsal for One night only and every other week after that. Jeez!

prodigalfan said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

yeah it seems that Rebbie was upset about what she was hearing and raised her hand 2 one of the court officers 2 be removed and the officer help escort her out but by going through the well, that's when the judge ordered the recording 2 be stopped and said "i cannot have people moving in the court .."

i got this info from watching HLN after the court had adjourned for the day

and it also seems that dr adams is mighty pissed about the implications and one his lawyers claimed they will be a civil suit against dr. murray later

Oh, so it was an honest mistake... and not Reba's mistake but the court officer... who should've known better.

Just reading this reminds me of how hard this case must be for the family. This was their brother/son that is being discussed.

So sad. The whole situation. They knew and dreaded that day would come. They tried to execute an intervention and it didn't work.

i feel that regardless of a trial, anyone that loses someone and then either watches videos or recordings of their loved one again will tear u apart. as public as this trial is, it's gotta be devastating for anyone.

Of course my appraisal of the coffin and other clues is based on the published pictures and other info/reports I saw in the media.

But otherwise, who can say he/she has done anything personally on this- and earlier MJ-related cases/events - especially among us, the public? Of course we can only base our judgements on our perceptions of things.

And you said it: bad press in the last 15 years of his life. Before that, he had reached the top, and in addition to his indisputable talent & hard work, I think the media and his skillful maneuvering played no small part in his success.

PatrickS77 said:

Flo6 said:

Why I think so? For anyone who cares to look, there have been scores of reports [now posted online] of very strange facts/events/occurrences [from his 1.80 meters fitting into such a small coffin in the first place, then the photoshopped ambulance picture (and the gurney one I suspect is too), his relatives making contradictory statements to the press (Jermaine making a slip and saying to an interviewer that MJ 'was driven to the airport, oops, I mean the cemetery on 25/09', the tomb that doesn't bear his name, the fact that those who speak out about their suspicions of a faked death are then harassed to shut up (like the one in the video) - why would they be, if there is nothing to hide?.. All the cash-pissing business deals that his family is now involved in, etc.., and now the strange voice recording, among many other things in these court proceedings...

These are only a handful of strange things to me, among many, many other 'unexplainable' data.

But another fact that raises my level of suspicion is the fact that MJ himself was a master at manipulating the media, and this on a huge, global level. It's a known fact that he was a master at disguising himself, and also that he has faked medical emergencies in the past, complete with mass international coverage, several times. and yes, that includes by CNN an the major networks.

I don't think that this one is beyond his abilities:)..

So that's in the case of a faked death.

Geez, we had the woman, who took the picture testifying in court! So your imagined issue of an official picture, used by the prosecution is totally void!

About the coffin... did you personally measure it?? It's a very massive coffin, a wide one, so it may appear shorter than it actually is!

As for Jermaines "slip up", who knows what hes acutally thinking about... maybe one should listen to the whole interview again.

And the reason why those who believe in a hoax are harrassed is probably because the mere thought of it is ridiculous and in a way insulting to to Michael and to the people who are mourning his death.

So Michael was a master at manipulating the press? Yeah right, he was so great at that, that he got nothing but bad press the last 15 years of his life. And yes, he has faked so many medical emergencies with hundreds of people coming to hospitals, like when he got burned doing a commercial for Pepsi and when he collapsed during rehearsal for One night only and every other week after that. Jeez!

About the coffin:

I don't think MJ's remains were in the coffin at the large funeral. I think the family had their own private funeral in an undisclosed location earlier that day... then they had the public funeral with all the singing and circus media.

I think his family and in particular Katherine would have wanted his true "going home" service to be dignified, reverent and holy.

You can not achieve that with all the who's who of hollywood angling to get positive press etc by attending MJ and may not have even been a part of his life.

Like the hired help who have been with the family for decades and are more like family. I could imagine that some of them were at the true funeral and sat in prominent places (like in front row with family) just because they are the true friends and support system.

But for the public memorial, people like Mariah Carey, Kobe Bryant, Wesley Snipes, Spike Lee...

did any of these people even KNOW Michael Jackson? But I bet they had prominent places to sit at the funeral just because of their celebrity value.

But what about the pool man who worked for the family for 18 years (just hypothetical!) Don't you think seeing the same person for almost 2 decades would make that person closer and familiar to you then someone like Snipes.. who you have have shaked hand once at a red carpet event.

I really think the public memorial was all for show... even the coffin. So I don't think the size of the coffin was really that important.