rdhull said:

Be constant RD for in the Messiah's "Dangerous" teachings he instructed us all to "Keep The Faith". As strength in moments of weakness and as a poetic dedication to Brother915, Joshy, Cloudbuster, Marrk, Papaa, Deeplove et al I offer the following prose. Taken from Telia Diane Perryman's "I Can't Believe It! Michael Jackson: Michael Be Strong" book:

Wishing Love

You Hid your smile,
you hid your laugh,
but
my love
I promise
not to hide
I will speak
my mind
and I always
will be kind.
Michael Jackson,
I wish
that we could
meet
down by the sea
where
the lonely trees
blow,
with silent
blows.
Michael Jackson
I wish
you were
the one
for me.

Joshy84au said:

No offense, but the credits really don't prove anything. Credits can be manipulated or outright bought. Col. Parker, Elvis Presley's manager, was notorius for this. Songwriters who wanted to work with Elvis were told that they *had* to give Elvis a credit if they wanted to work with him.


Many artists are suspected of manipulating credits. The word on Lenny Kravitz is that he pays his band members to shut up about the extent of their contributions to his albums so that it looks like Lenny did most of the work himself.

I have suspected for a long time that most of MJ's credits are BS. If MJ could really play an instrument, he would have done so in public by now.

I think it is very important for one to have an objective view of things{in addtion to putting things in the proper perspective}. I think because of some of the things going on in his personal life is bizarre, people allow that to cloud their judgement and their ability to assess the musical aspect of his being.

First of all, Mike is a musical icon..PERIOD!!! Yes put his name right there next to Elvis Presley(Spats} and Marilyn Monroe. Do you think it is accidental that 27 million viewers tuned in to his documentary last week. Do you think it's accidental that anytime a MJ special comes on TV...millions on top of millions tuned in? That speak volumes about Michael. Also, if Michael didn't have the talent muscle to back up all of this attention, he wouldn't be such a big deal. But he is!!! Does anyone remember the piece that Vibe did on Mike a few years ago? The writer was saying that we ought to appreciate someone like Mike while he is still around. I agree with this writer 200% because someone like MIKE comes once in a lifetime. After HIM, there will be no more...just like Miles Davis, Sammy Davis Jr, Jimi Hendrix, Donny Hathaway, Billie Holiday etc..
So let's go back and look at why Mike is such a big deal...



1. Child Prodigy- We've all heard those amazing Jackson 5 recording. Mike's ability {as a child} to interpret and read adult like situations is nothing short of amazing. Listen to the way he sings with such conviction on "Never Can Say Goodbye". You know as a 12 year old child, he has never experienced the trials and tribulations of an adult relationship. But yet he sings and conveys the ups and downs of the relationship so exact and to the point that you may find yourself forgetting that it a little boy singing this. A work of genius. Also hear "Who Lovin You" for the same type of evidence of Mike's GREATNESS...THE EARLY YEARS!!!

2. Spinning In... Back in the early 70's Mike created {even though it is an augmentation of spin moves executed by James Brown and Jackie Wilson..two heroes of Mike} a dance called "spinning in. This is where Mike take his left leg and place it over his right leg and thrust himself around in a circular motions several times."{like an ice skater} This steps has been done by people like members of New Edition, NSYNC, Dru Hill, and countless others!!! Also note the response Mike got when he did " the robot" dance on Soul Train when him and brothers performed "Dancing Machine". Plus his dancing has been praised by the likes of Sammy Davis Jr and Gene Kelly. Mike is a natural dancer who doesn't need classes. As he said in his documentary"you can't teach this, it has to come from within..it's a gift". It's also worth noting that in 1983 when "Billie Jean" and "Beat It" started showing up on MTV along with his Motown 25th performance, the mainstream populaton were like "Gee, I didn't know Michael could dance like that". Man, the Black Community been knowing for years that Mike could dance. But "all of a sudden "it was "discovered" that he has an immense dancing talent...DUH!!!

3. Off The Wall- The Official Transition from Child Star To Adult Artist...I won't say much about this because this record has been discussed so many times. But Mike's vocal turns on this album is pure soul. A work of genius. The way Mike shouts OOO at the beginning of "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough" symbolizes his artistic/independence coming of age. Mike sounds as if he's finally liberated. Everything on this landmark record is a work of genius. The producing, the solid musicianship of the musicians, Mike's vocals, the songwriting etc...

4. Thriller- You know the deal on this...the best selling album of all time.IMHO, it won't be broken,,,not in my lifetime, anyway. How many copies you have of this album? You dont have to be ashame to tell me.

5. The Business- Mike is also a great business man. He realizes unlike so many black performers in the past that out of the phrase SHOW BUSINESS, the word BUSINESS is longer than the word SHOW. Mike learned this long time ago. Mike is a avid student of black history. He has read about how so many of the very performers whom he admired growing up got ripped off. So he developed a strong sense of business savvy. One of my very first posts on prince.org{back in 2001} was a statememt I made stating that the media backlash on MJ didn't start until after he acquired the Beatles catalog in the mid 80's{needless to say I go flamed badly}. As a person that has followed media and magazine articles on Mike, I begin noticing that the media didn't start turning on Mike until after he got the Beatles catalog in his possession. Hey, it was a great move for Mike. Then when he allowed Nike to run a commerical using one of the Beatles songs..."Revolution", "the mainstream media"{comprised and consisting of majority WHITE PEOPLE ..YES I SAID IT/Beatles fans} said "off with Mike's head". Because remember The Beatles are sacred and holy , and NO ONE is to tamper with their art. Plus the thought of an entertainer.. ahem... a black artist having the green light to allow such a thing is too much for them handle. But they will live.Black artists have been getting pimped and screwed for years and no one had a problem with that, so they need to keep their mouths shut about Mike. People have to realize that the Beatles catalog is an asset. And I would say that a substantial amount of those SAME people would have outbidded Paul for those songs too, if they had the financial muscle to do so. But yet they cry and moan about Mike having access to the Fab Four catalog. People talk about that was cold of Mike to outbid Paul after Paul gave sound muscial business advice. As Miles would say...SO WHAT?, Paul should have found an alternate means of acquiring the songs he help write. Anytime the media even think that Mike may be going broke they will print and talk about it to no end, that should tell
you something right there.. The "mainstream media" wouldn't love nothing more than for Mike to go broke and then they'd say "Oh what a tradegy and travesty for this to happen". Then behind the scenes under their breaths they'll whisper."another STUPID nigger who didn't know how to take care of his business..had it all, now he has nothing to show for his MANY years of hard work".
So you can label Mike's move to get the Sony/Beatles catalog..a work of GENIUS. I'll be the first to admit that Mike has some personal issues. As I stated before, I still don't believe that Mike doesn't have the skin disease he claims to have. Which leads me to say that no matter how much Mike bleaches his skin, he will still be looked as " black man" to the mainstream media.

In closing Mike is a living legend who is one of the greatest live performers to ever STEP foot on a stage. A seasoned veterean to BE EXACT. Sometimes I look at people who post about Mike's LACK of peforming prowness{ he is lame on stage and does the same things on stage OVER AND OVER} and shake my head. Performing on stage is like breathing air for Mike. I know one thing if I wanted some advice on stage performance, he'd {along with LIL MAN, Stevie Wonder. I would say Miles and Marvin, but they are no longer with us} be one of the first ones I'd consult. Mike could probably sell out nearly every date right now, if he was to embark on a US Tour. Barbara Walters and ABC and all of the other media networks state "Mike is a freak and is weird" but will break their necks {and play 10 million $$$ to get the right to air a documentary on him} You know why?..cause Mike is AN ICON and a legend and he means $$$. Remember you don't have to be a multi-instrumentalist to be labeled a genius. Webster defines genius as "a natural fitness,aptitude or talent". Now ask yourself does not Mike, as it relates to his singing ,dancing and performing earns the right to be labeled a genius? Remember... playing an instrument or several instruments is not a prerequisite that must be fulfilled to be labeled a genius. Even Your Royal Badness gave Mike favorable mention in a 1990 issue of Rolling Stone magazine.

Mike may be a little OFF THE WALL, but this BAD and DANGEROUS brother on stage has been THRILLING us for over 30 years..eccentricities aside. That is a testament in itself. Wonder how many MILLIONS will tuned in to FOX on Feb 20th.
___


I put this post{from my thread} here in this thread at the request of the moderator.


BRO915
[This message was edited Tue Feb 18 6:03:10 PST 2003 by Brother915]
[This message was edited Tue Feb 18 8:47:46 PST 2003 by Brother915]
[This message was edited Wed Feb 19 4:55:34 PST 2003 by Brother915]

Essence said:

oh dammnn lololol

jonylawson said:

I agree with that, and have brought it up before. It seems that nowadays Michael's passion is for the BUSINESS of music, instead of the creation of music itself. But although I'm not an MJ fan anymore I do like a lot of his old music...I'm talking mainly older than the Thriller album. Some people throw the genius tag around like it's necessary for validation. It's not. Some geniuses are what they are for different reasons, there isn't a one size fits all criteria. I don't have to consider someone a genius to enjoy what they do/did, and I still enjoy what I consider Michael's stellar musical moments.

Brother915 said:

too bad you don't





Icon is not the same thing as being a genius..genius.



Folks like seing the freakshows at the circus too as well as accidents on highways




he is appreciated..just because the whole world or some of his fans don't deify his every move does not mean what he has done is not appreciated.



Uh..not neccessarily a bad thing lol...we don't need another Mike



what a disservice you are doing to soem of these people



You would think that you would have a better perspective on things as well



Ok this I can get with



Is this really something that makes him a genius?



Ok now this I can get with and this is his best move(s) etc..fuck a moonwalk and agressive kick spin open jacket 80's bullshit.








A gift my ass..that fool danced every damn day and all day on Sunday "till he couldn't walk no more" to get his moves down




whats this have to do wit the price of fish in...?







"genius" though?



roflmaoo





Wait hol' up patna..Mike also put the overly showy boolshit back into show business and "the busines"--it isnt all raining skittles ya know.



oh damnnn



damn!



Im not to versed in this but I agree sort of..Paul and Ono semed like they didn't weant to give up any substantial amount of moola..and they were Pauls own damn songs lol.


Oh shit!





Ok I can get with this



Well damn son its about time you said something like that lol



give it up for Brotha lol..put your hands together lol



Its true tho..his shit is tired..admit that.



I agree..thats why his ass needs to tour at this time etc.



yup


yes and no though. the word genius gets theown around so much with such great and established artists..even with soem grwat things many artists do, those works still are not the mark of genius..this includes classical composers as well etc


Cornyyy but neccessary i guess eh?



I will..but not because I think Mikes a genius
___
[This message was edited Mon Feb 17 11:19:00 PST 2003 by rdhull]

What constitutes being a genius? I think MJ's biggest accomplishment is selling a butt-load of albums & introducing the moonwalk to mainstream America. If anything he is a great promoter, who had great timing. But I have yet to see anything that makes me think he is a musical genius. I can't include him on a list that includes Mozart, Beethoven, Gershwin, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Bob Dylan, Lennon/McCartney, Miles Davis, Stevie Wonder...and yes, Prince.

He makes appealing pop music...nothing more and nothing less.

rdhull said:

Awww, that's just wrong. RD, recite the "Wishing Love" poem non-stop until bedtime, you WILL see the light yet.

rdhull said:

(LOL)...well at least you agreed with a couple of my words.

My answers:

Michael is a talented pop-writer and was a talented showman.
Quincy Jones is a production genius.
Michael Jackson is not a genius, but when he combined his writing/performance with more talented producers like Q or JJ & TL, his music rewrote pop history.

His influence cannot be disputed. However, there is no more overrated, overpraised star out there. He deserves half the credit he gets.

And, notice, I never mentioned his eccentricities. I'm sticking to the music.

lameless said:

to make that Musical Marriage between the Worlds that Quincy Came from&the School that MJ came from to making that Work is of Musical Genius.

DavidEye said:

Sinatra's Phrasing was Genius.Jackie Wilson never got a chance to fully expand on His Gift but He was BADDD&Is Easily one of the Greatest Musical Talents Ever IMHO.Sammy Davis Jr was a Tight Drummer&Dancer All-Around Force.

Essence said:

I'm simply saying if someone can say Prince is a genius but Michael "king of pop" Jackson isn't then that person hasn't the faintest clue about music, fo sho Prince is a genius, but the masses say MJ is the leader and others fail to match his standards...long after their both gone MICHAEL JACKSON will be the one who will go down in the HIStory books.

Brother915 said:

AMEN for given it up for the All-Around Musical Force that is Michael Joe Jackson.AMEN!!!BRO915 You Get "IT" you see the Full Picture&truly Understand.too many Haters here who don't know a thing about MJ&are limited on the Subject.

deeplove said:

yeah..for almost being "booked"

tommyalma said:

Really? He said it around 2001/2002 on Regis when he was promoting his autobiography. Quincy has always been fair to Michael, not biased. Just read his book (a great read) and see. Now Q...he's a musical genius without a doubt. It takes one to know one, as the saying goes.

rdhull said:




ROTFLMAO!!
This is exactly what I said as I watched this documentary. I literally said, "It's like a horrible car accident that you don't want to see, but you can't stop watching."

and

rdhull said:




But don't knock Gene Kelly!

I always Notice a Pattern MJ "HATERS" do there Damnest to try to put down His Owrk.but straight up the Brother is a Genius.take "Off The Wall" as great as everything was on that Album it was even greater for MJ's Soulful Vocals.A VOice is One of the Greatest Instruments known to Man&those that use it&have Influence with it lead&Are in COmmand of it Show GENIUS&that is what MJ has shown Period.

minneapolisgenius said:

Same here, no lie--I actually said that aloud too.



Not knockin GK ..what he did for him is cool but I dont want MJ to do those style movies etc

mistermaxxx said:

I dont think anyone is knocking MJ, they just are saying he is not a genius. Nobody is denying his musical merit.I think the important thing here is that "giving tree" has caused a major problem in his music.

lameless said:

Quincy just doesn't give it up for anybody.Smokey Robinson,Little Richard,Berry Gordy,Among others have spoken up on His Gift as a Artist.

rdhull said:


Yeah, I can't really see M.J. playing the leading man in anything.

The only thing I'm saying is that jonylawson is saying that he's not a genius because he doesn't plays an instrument, RARELY write his own stuff and Michael's moonwalking {a one trick pony}. Remember I did a thread in the Prince music forum last year titled Define Genius. I was simply interested in the feedback from fellow orgers hoping that it would spark some dialogue on the subject of Prince's genius and other others who are considered geniuses. I agree the term is thrown around too lightly..hence my thread{the one last year} in the first place. I agree that some of Mike's post-Thriller recordings is commerial with flashes of brillances on certain spots{he seems to be trying for a Thriller Part 2 nearly everytime out}. However, a lot of people feel that in music... if you don't play several instruments and write all of your material then you can't be labeled a genius. At the end of the day, we all have our opinions. I was just trying to add some balance on this discussion and another viewpoint from another angle...that's all.

I'm reminded of what LIL MAN said on the song "Now" from the The Gold Experience album...

"There's more 2 genius than the word"

Brother915 said:

Yep and Mike sure lives up to that.

Brother915 said:

you are the only Person Breaking the Science on this Thread IMHO.RIGHT ON!

rdhull said:

Brother915 Broke the Science down&He Nailed it Period.

mistermaxxx said:

He broke some things down yes but not completely and some things were off the mark..some I agreed with but you wont see that because you are biased as usual ..if someone "breaks science" with an artist you love its all good and if ohers have a sensible differing opinion you call them haters etc...you are pulling what you accused me of doing with U2 several months ago..remember...and some of this MJ stuff is fanatical close-minded boolshit lol.."period". Now that's my brand a science. Learn it..love it..live it


.
[This message was edited Mon Feb 17 14:16:27 PST 2003 by rdhull]

I wouldn't ever classify Jackson as a musical genius. I'd give credit where it's due though and say that he is an excellent entertainer. There is a lot of merit in that because not everyone has the natural ability for stage presence nor the ability to command an audience that crosses generations.

rdhull said: