kitbradley said:

Timmy84 said:

That is true. But I also think, and my mama has brought it up, that she felt she wasn't really respected by her peers anyway especially compared to how the rockers treated her. Which can probably explain why she hated being tagged as R&B after she left Ike. It's actually understandable.

Oh I definately agree that Tina has never been given credit for what she contributed to Soul/R&B music by critics, the public or other artists in the particular genre. I think a lot of her bitterness towards the genre probably has a lot to do with Ike, also. And she has stated several times that when she was down and out, her white audience and friends were the only ones supporting her. But, I guess I feel if an African American Awards show is honoring you and they ask you to do something as simple as take a photo with the other guests, that wasn't asking very much. Unless, of course, she had a personal beef with another person who was asked to participate in the photo (i.e, Aretha) . I remember a rumor back in '85 that, after Diana presented her with an award, Tina snubbed her backstage at the Grammies b/c she felt Diana did not offer any support when she was struggling.

So yeah, I understand her frustration about certain things as far as black music is concerned. But, that's no reason to turn your nose up at the music and the audience that made you a star in the first place. If she would have started out doing Rock back in the 60's, she would not have had a career.

That's interesting but I wonder what exactly Tina expected Diana to do? It's probably fair to say that most of the R & B/Soul singers of the '60s had struggles in the mid-late '70s. Was Diana any more supportive towards them than she was towards Tina?

rialb said:

Huh, I never really thought about how to qualify Tina's music but if you imagine that the Ike years never happened and that Private Dancer is her debut I guess she is at least as much pop/rock as she is soul/R & B. Pretty much every black singer is to a degree pigeonholed as being an R & B singer. Charley Pride is one of the few that springs to mind as having completely escaped that label.

Perhaps I need to better familiarise myself with her '80s-present recordings but I never really considered Tina to be a rock singer either. For my tastes her music is too slick and poppy to be considered rock. Has she recorded anything with live drums and bass that features loud guitars? To me that is rock music. I wonder what some of her songs would sound like coming from a white singer and if they would still be considered R & B?

Tina even at the beginning of her career struck me as a rock singer. She didn't have the traditional R&B female voice anyway...

Timmy84 said:

kitbradley said:

Oh I definately agree that Tina has never been given credit for what she contributed to Soul/R&B music by critics, the public or other artists in the particular genre. I think a lot of her bitterness towards the genre probably has a lot to do with Ike, also. And she has stated several times that when she was down and out, her white audience and friends were the only ones supporting her. But, I guess I feel if an African American Awards show is honoring you and they ask you to do something as simple as take a photo with the other guests, that wasn't asking very much. Unless, of course, she had a personal beef with another person who was asked to participate in the photo (i.e, Aretha) . I remember a rumor back in '85 that, after Diana presented her with an award, Tina snubbed her backstage at the Grammies b/c she felt Diana did not offer any support when she was struggling.

So yeah, I understand her frustration about certain things as far as black music is concerned. But, that's no reason to turn your nose up at the music and the audience that made you a star in the first place. If she would have started out doing Rock back in the 60's, she would not have had a career.

Tina felt like that with most of the R&B artists when her situation with Ike went down. I think it's something she's never got over.

She definately has a strong dislike for the genre. Her solo albums from the 70's after she left Ike were mostly Rock oriented. I think the only reason why half of "Private Dancer" was R&B was because Roger Davis probably told her if she wanted to make it here in the States, she would have to go back to her roots. "Let's Stay Together", which was 100% Soul music, was the first and only Tina Turner song American audiences had responded to since she had left Ike. And they responded very strongly so she knew what she had to do in order to have a chance over here again.

rialb said:

kitbradley said:

Oh I definately agree that Tina has never been given credit for what she contributed to Soul/R&B music by critics, the public or other artists in the particular genre. I think a lot of her bitterness towards the genre probably has a lot to do with Ike, also. And she has stated several times that when she was down and out, her white audience and friends were the only ones supporting her. But, I guess I feel if an African American Awards show is honoring you and they ask you to do something as simple as take a photo with the other guests, that wasn't asking very much. Unless, of course, she had a personal beef with another person who was asked to participate in the photo (i.e, Aretha) . I remember a rumor back in '85 that, after Diana presented her with an award, Tina snubbed her backstage at the Grammies b/c she felt Diana did not offer any support when she was struggling.

So yeah, I understand her frustration about certain things as far as black music is concerned. But, that's no reason to turn your nose up at the music and the audience that made you a star in the first place. If she would have started out doing Rock back in the 60's, she would not have had a career.

That's interesting but I wonder what exactly Tina expected Diana to do? It's probably fair to say that most of the R & B/Soul singers of the '60s had struggles in the mid-late '70s. Was Diana any more supportive towards them than she was towards Tina?

Diana didn't support anyone.

kitbradley said:

Timmy84 said:

Tina felt like that with most of the R&B artists when her situation with Ike went down. I think it's something she's never got over.

She definately has a strong dislike for the genre. Her solo albums from the 70's after she left Ike were mostly Rock oriented. I think the only reason why half of "Private Dancer" was R&B was because Roger Davis probably told her if she wanted to make it here in the States, she would have to go back to her roots. "Let's Stay Together", which was 100% Soul music, was the first and only Tina Turner song American audiences had responded to since she had left Ike. And they responded very strongly so she knew what she had to do in order to have a chance over here again.

And she knew, even if she initially hated it, that "What's Love Got to Do With It", which was also very strong on the R&B/soul side, would get her more attention. Once those two songs became hits, she was allowed to do more rock. I think even she acknowledged that once.

Timmy84 said:

rialb said:

Huh, I never really thought about how to qualify Tina's music but if you imagine that the Ike years never happened and that Private Dancer is her debut I guess she is at least as much pop/rock as she is soul/R & B. Pretty much every black singer is to a degree pigeonholed as being an R & B singer. Charley Pride is one of the few that springs to mind as having completely escaped that label.

Perhaps I need to better familiarise myself with her '80s-present recordings but I never really considered Tina to be a rock singer either. For my tastes her music is too slick and poppy to be considered rock. Has she recorded anything with live drums and bass that features loud guitars? To me that is rock music. I wonder what some of her songs would sound like coming from a white singer and if they would still be considered R & B?

Tina even at the beginning of her career struck me as a rock singer. She didn't have the traditional R&B female voice anyway...

That's true. She often has a much harsher and shouty vocal than most female R & B singers. She's probably much more similar to James Brown and Wilson Pickett than people like Diana Ross or Gladys Knight.

JoeTyler said:

rialb said:

For me it's simple. Aretha was head and shoulders better than Tina in the '60s and '70s. Say the '50s was a tie because neither one of them recorded much. That leaves the '80s to the present. Now, I think you could make an argument that the '80s was a tie but I'll give it to Tina since she was a bigger star. The '90s? Tina had one big hit in the early '90s but otherwise neither one of them has done much of note over the last twenty years. The difference is that, although Aretha's peak was relatively brief, the music she recorded circa 1967-1973 was so good that even if that was all she did her legacy would still be greater than Tina's. Further, Aretha's Columbia recordings display versatility that Tina lacks. By any objective measure I don't see how Tina's catalog of music stands up to Aretha's.

You seem to be making the case that because Aretha had a golden era that that is somehow a strike against her but I would argue that Tina never had anything close to the run that Aretha had from 1967-1973. I would also argue that Aretha never made nearly as many bad albums as Tina did with Ike in the early-mid '60s. There were some good-great live albums sprinkled in there but have you ever tried listening to those albums? Very patchy.

you guys

need

to accept

that Tina

is way better than

Diana Ross...

Thats a MUCH more realistic comparision and one that I agree with. I think the accolades Diana recieves Tina should exactly receive because she is a better entertainer singer than Diana.

But comparing Tina Turner to ARETHA FRANKLIN??? is beyond laughable and I LOVEE Tina but their is no comparision with her and Aretha.

Not only is Aretha a better singer, she has MORE classics and has contributed alot more not saying Tina hasnt but most of her influence believe it or not has alot to do with her pairing with Ike.

[Edited 10/4/11 17:21pm]

rialb said:

Timmy84 said:

Tina even at the beginning of her career struck me as a rock singer. She didn't have the traditional R&B female voice anyway...

That's true. She often has a much harsher and shouty vocal than most female R & B singers. She's probably much more similar to James Brown and Wilson Pickett than people like Diana Ross or Gladys Knight.

I think that's why she got more attention from rock acts than say Aretha because they loved her rawness and edge. In fact, the rockers who grew up to be just that admired Tina from her Ike days anyways, like Bryan Adams for one. Tina also had more influence on the vocals on rock female acts than she did R&B because of her vocal style. It wasn't traditional R&B at all. It's kinda like as you said James Brown or Wilson Pickett (who could've easily gone the rock route with his voice but stuck to soul) or Little Richard (though Richard has shown he has a great voice for soul music). You couldn't compare her to Diana or Gladys because vocally and performance wise she was in a different place. Hell so was Ike. He wasn't a traditional R&B artist either, hell, he had part in creating rock and roll to begin with!

I just picked up my Quincy Jones autobiography page 259,this is what he wrote:

Steven (Spielberg) and I were producing the film based on the wonderfully inspired novel by Alice Walker.We were praying Tina would accept one of the lead roles,the part of Shug.I'd already spoken briefly to Tina about it,and assumed she wanted it,but at that meeting she flipped on me.She said "I wouldn't do a black film if I was dying.It took me twenty years to get out of that black shit and I ain't going back.I came out here to talk to Steven about a role in Indiana Jones".

And before anyone gets at me for getting more rock notice than Aretha, I know damn well Aretha got a lot of admirers who were rockers too. Like Eric Clapton and Keith Richards and 'em...

Timmy84 said:

rialb said:

That's interesting but I wonder what exactly Tina expected Diana to do? It's probably fair to say that most of the R & B/Soul singers of the '60s had struggles in the mid-late '70s. Was Diana any more supportive towards them than she was towards Tina?

Diana didn't support anyone.

She supported herself! She always looked out for #1.

RE: Shug in the "Color Purple": I never knew Patti was offered the role. I know both Tina and Chaka were offered and turned it down. I remember Chaka's mom stated in one of Chaka's Fan Club Newsletters (yes, I'm dating myself here) she turned it down, I believe her exact words were, "after finding out what was expected of her". Phyllis was actually hired for the role at one point and even started filming but was fired after she starting bossing Steven Speilberg around, telling him how to do his job.

Somebody should have told her that men from ALL RACES can be abusive to women it's not just a "black thing".

SoulAlive said:

I just picked up my Quincy Jones autobiography page 259,this is what he wrote:

Steven (Spielberg) and I were producing the film based on the wonderfully inspired novel by Alice Walker.We were praying Tina would accept one of the lead roles,the part of Shug.I'd already spoken briefly to Tina about it,and assumed she wanted it,but at that meeting she flipped on me.She said "I wouldn't do a black film if I was dying.It took me twenty years to get out of that black shit and I ain't going back.I came out here to talk to Steven about a role in Indiana Jones".

Whatever, Mr. "I only date young white girls because they bring the mixed milk out of my kids". I'm sure Tina knows she's black and what's wrong with wanting to do an action film? I would think Tina being in "The Color Purple" wouldn't have been a good fit anyway.

SoulAlive said:

Somebody should have told her that men from ALL RACES can be abusive to women it's not just a "black thing".

kitbradley said:

Timmy84 said:

Diana didn't support anyone.

She supported herself! She always looked out for #1.

RE: Shug in the "Color Purple": I never knew Patti was offered the role. I know both Tina and Chaka were offered and turned it down. I remember Chaka's mom stated in one of Chaka's Fan Club Newsletters (yes, I'm dating myself here) she turned it down, I believe her exact words were, "after finding out what was expected of her". Phyllis was actually hired for the role at one point and even started filming but was fired after she starting bossing Steven Speilberg around, telling him how to do his job.

Yeah according to her in some interview, Patti said that Steven had told her that she had always wanted Patti to do "The Color Purple" because he had seen her in "A Soldier's Story" and because of her sassy attitude in that film, he figured she'd be great for it. When she read the role, however, there was that part where Celie and Shug engage in a lesbian sex scene and Patti was like "oh no, no offense, but I don't kiss women" and it was right after Patti turned it down that Margaret Avery eventually got the role. Patti then said that she felt like a fool turning it down because of what resulted from it: the film being a huge success and Margaret getting an Oscar nod.

[Edited 10/4/11 17:28pm]

it's amazing how many women were offered (or considered for) that role,but didn't do it

SoulAlive said:

it's amazing how many women were offered (or considered for) that role,but didn't do it

Yeah but after looking at the movie, I can't imagine them doing it. Margaret Avery was made for that role.

Timmy84 said:

SoulAlive said:

it's amazing how many women were offered (or considered for) that role,but didn't do it

Yeah but after looking at the movie, I can't imagine them doing it. Margaret Avery was made for that role.

I just think it's funny how they so badly wanted an actual singer in that role but ended up with a non-singer instead. Margaret did an outstanding acting job with the lip-synching and everything but I DEFINATELY could have easily seen Phyllis running away in that role. It could have taken her to a whole new level, especially after being kicked out on the curb at Arista Records. But unfortunately, getting herself fired was just another way she sabatoged her own career.

kitbradley said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah but after looking at the movie, I can't imagine them doing it. Margaret Avery was made for that role.

I just think it's funny how they so badly wanted an actual singer in that role but ended up with a non-singer instead. Margaret did an outstanding acting job with the lip-synching and everything but I DEFINATELY could have easily seen Phyllis running away in that role. It could have taken her to a whole new level, especially after being kicked out on the curb at Arista Records. But unfortunately, getting herself fired was just another way she sabatoged her own career.

Yeah Phyllis was the only one I could see doing it. Actually when you think about it, the way the character was BUILD, it seemed like it was really Phyllis! I just thought about it. Wasn't that her singing "God Is Trying to Tell You Something" or someone else?!

rialb said:

Huh, I never really thought about how to qualify Tina's music but if you imagine that the Ike years never happened and that Private Dancer is her debut I guess she is at least as much pop/rock as she is soul/R & B. Pretty much every black singer is to a degree pigeonholed as being an R & B singer. Charley Pride is one of the few that springs to mind as having completely escaped that label.

Perhaps I need to better familiarise myself with her '80s-present recordings but I never really considered Tina to be a rock singer either. For my tastes her music is too slick and poppy to be considered rock. Has she recorded anything with live drums and bass that features loud guitars? To me that is rock music. I wonder what some of her songs would sound like coming from a white singer and if they would still be considered R & B?

Tina Turner "The Break Every Rule Japan Tour 1988" feat. Mick Jagger

she is so rock and roll: http://www.youtube.com/wa...aKl2ec4J_w

Timmy84 said:

kitbradley said:

I just think it's funny how they so badly wanted an actual singer in that role but ended up with a non-singer instead. Margaret did an outstanding acting job with the lip-synching and everything but I DEFINATELY could have easily seen Phyllis running away in that role. It could have taken her to a whole new level, especially after being kicked out on the curb at Arista Records. But unfortunately, getting herself fired was just another way she sabatoged her own career.

Yeah Phyllis was the only one I could see doing it. Actually when you think about it, the way the character was BUILD, it seemed like it was really Phyllis! I just thought about it. Wasn't that her singing "God Is Trying to Tell You Something" or someone else?!

No. Tata Vega did all of the vocal work. Margaret lipsynched to Tata's vocals.

free2bfreeda said:

rialb said:

Huh, I never really thought about how to qualify Tina's music but if you imagine that the Ike years never happened and that Private Dancer is her debut I guess she is at least as much pop/rock as she is soul/R & B. Pretty much every black singer is to a degree pigeonholed as being an R & B singer. Charley Pride is one of the few that springs to mind as having completely escaped that label.

Perhaps I need to better familiarise myself with her '80s-present recordings but I never really considered Tina to be a rock singer either. For my tastes her music is too slick and poppy to be considered rock. Has she recorded anything with live drums and bass that features loud guitars? To me that is rock music. I wonder what some of her songs would sound like coming from a white singer and if they would still be considered R & B?

Tina Turner "The Break Every Rule Japan Tour 1988" feat. Mick Jagger

she is so rock and roll: http://www.youtube.com/wa...aKl2ec4J_w

Tina Turner & David Bowie Tonight Live in London

the woman is so rock and roll: http://www.youtube.com/wa...1E068F4118

mick + david + tina = rock n' roll

Eh, a case could be made that at those stages of their careers neither Mick nor David were rock

and roll singers, during the eighties they were trying their darndest to be pop stars.

kitbradley said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah Phyllis was the only one I could see doing it. Actually when you think about it, the way the character was BUILD, it seemed like it was really Phyllis! I just thought about it. Wasn't that her singing "God Is Trying to Tell You Something" or someone else?!

No. Tata Vega did all of the vocal work. Margaret lipsynched to Tata's vocals.

Thanks.

OK, I just did a little investigating and it appears that there is no one perfect compilation but what would you guys recommend as the best Tina compilation focusing on the post Ike years? It looks like I am leaning towards The Platinum Collection. Three discs is one more than I need but this looks like it has nearly all of her hits circa 1984-present. Ideally I would like something that completely ignores the pre Private Dancer era but other than Simply the Best (which is missing "I Don't Wanna Fight") it appears that all of her compilations contain Ike era material.

rialb said:

free2bfreeda said:

Tina Turner "The Break Every Rule Japan Tour 1988" feat. Mick Jagger

she is so rock and roll: http://www.youtube.com/wa...aKl2ec4J_w

Tina Turner & David Bowie Tonight Live in London

the woman is so rock and roll: http://www.youtube.com/wa...1E068F4118

mick + david + tina = rock n' roll

Eh, a case could be made that at those stages of their careers neither Mick nor David were rock

and roll singers, during the eighties they were trying their darndest to be pop stars.

Real true lmao in fact most of them who had emerged as "rock stars" were all trying to be pop. Guess they got jealous at Phil Collins or something.

rialb said:

free2bfreeda said:

tina is so rock n roll:

Eh, a case could be made that at those stages of their careers neither Mick nor David were rock

and roll singers, during the eighties they were trying their darndest to be pop stars.

otay i fell ur need be right. so i'll agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

free2bfreeda said:

rialb said:

Eh, a case could be made that at those stages of their careers neither Mick nor David were rock

and roll singers, during the eighties they were trying their darndest to be pop stars.

otay i fell ur need be right. so i'll agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

This may be your idea of rock and roll but it sure as heck is not mine!

This is rock and roll:

rialb said:

free2bfreeda said:

otay i fell ur need be right. so i'll agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

This may be your idea of rock and roll but it sure as heck is not mine!

This is rock and roll:

LET 'EM KNOW! LET 'EM KNOW!

Quincy is not as harsh on Tina as you all think

here he is 2010 talking bout Tina

'I saw Ike pimp slap her for 20 years he was rough on her'

'I could understand why she resistant to that movie'

part 1 3:26

http://www.soulculture.co...ain-video/