Three leading black females. The most popular of their given eras.

Diana Ross (Berry Gordy)

Whitney Houston (Bobby Brown)

Beyonce (Jay-Z)

Do you think Diana still would have made it into the business? Would she have been so dominant if she wasn't set up to be dominate?

If Whitney never met Bobby would we have seen the same public image struggles? It's like everybody puts the blame on him even though it's a two-way street. What if she married Denzel Washington? Do you think she would have been more active from the early 90s on?

If Jay-Z wasn't attached to Beyonce's name do you think it would be easier for Rihanna and the Keri, Ashanti's, and Ciara's of the world?

I would say that the men in Diana Ross' and Beyonce's lives gave their career more of a boost, most notoriously, Beyonce. As for Whitney, she was at the peak of her success when she met Bobby. Afterwards, it just spiraled downhill. I wouldn't say that Bobby should take 100% of the blame for this.

musicjunky318 said:

Three leading black females. The most popular of their given eras.

Diana Ross (Berry Gordy)

Whitney Houston (Bobby Brown)

Beyonce (Jay-Z)

Do you think Diana still would have made it into the business? Would she have been so dominant if she wasn't set up to be dominate?

If Whitney never met Bobby would we have seen the same public image struggles? It's like everybody puts the blame on him even though it's a two-way street. What if she married Denzel Washington? Do you think she would have been more active from the early 90s on?

If Jay-Z wasn't attached to Beyonce's name do you think it would be easier for Rihanna and the Keri, Ashanti's, and Ciara's of the world?

I dont believe Jay-Z's attachment to Beyonce has anything to do with Ciara's Keri's and Ashanti's inability to stay revelant in music. We all know Beyonce's father was the driving force behind her success.

Whitney behind closed doors was a 'party girl'. Bobby was a 'bad boy' that wasnt a case of 'opposites attract' like everyone thought at the time. I believe Whitney was 'experimenting' wayyy before she met Bobby Brown. Eventually her usage wouldve manifest even if they never married.

Diana Ross became who she was because she slept with Berry Gordy. Would she had made it on her own without the Supremes first or Berry Gordy? Hell No

Interesting.

I don't know anything about Beyonce's personal relationships [with Jay-Z or anyone else - just not interested], but I always wondered where she would be now if it hadn't been for daddy...

Diana - obviously in her early years, she was driven (if a little shy at first), Berry gave her motivation and confidence in a way her father never did, that's why she clinged on to Berry as long as she did and how she ended up being one of Berry's many girlfriends (while he was still married to someone else btw). I don't know how her career would've fared had she not been signed to Motown, maybe becoming an actress or, as her father would've liked, a college graduate/nurse of some sort.

Whitney - this is a case of someone who made hasty decisions as far as love goes. I won't go as far as blaming Bobby for Whitney's downfall. Whatever happened was Whitney's decision. We have to think about how she dealt with situations in her career and how come she picked Bobby over everyone else. I think it's a complex thing with Whitney & Bobby than has been let on. They both needed each other for something, maybe it was a consensual thing between the both of them. Maybe both of their careers wouldn't have had the problems it did when they were married, who knows?

Beyonce - I can't see Beyonce's career going as well as it has WITHOUT Mathew. He risked everything - including alienating Beyonce from friendships (mainly with the Destiny's Child members) - to make Beyonce a superstar. Mathew was the kind of person Joe Jackson TRIED to be: a successful businessman that was able to get his way with his pride & joy.

Timmy84 said:

Diana - obviously in her early years, she was driven (if a little shy at first), Berry gave her motivation and confidence in a way her father never did, that's why she clinged on to Berry as long as she did and how she ended up being one of Berry's many girlfriends (while he was still married to someone else btw). I don't know how her career would've fared had she not been signed to Motown, maybe becoming an actress or, as her father would've liked, a college graduate/nurse of some sort.

Whitney - this is a case of someone who made hasty decisions as far as love goes. I won't go as far as blaming Bobby for Whitney's downfall. Whatever happened was Whitney's decision. We have to think about how she dealt with situations in her career and how come she picked Bobby over everyone else. I think it's a complex thing with Whitney & Bobby than has been let on. They both needed each other for something, maybe it was a consensual thing between the both of them. Maybe both of their careers wouldn't have had the problems it did when they were married, who knows?

Beyonce - I can't see Beyonce's career going as well as it has WITHOUT Mathew. He risked everything - including alienating Beyonce from friendships (mainly with the Destiny's Child members) - to make Beyonce a superstar. Mathew was the kind of person Joe Jackson TRIED to be: a successful businessman that was able to get his way with his pride & joy.

i agree with this.

diana (and everyone else signed to the label) owes a debt to motown for giving her that platform for her dreams. we tend to forget in this post-civil rights era how incredibly rare a business like motown was, and how 'shocking' that it was as successful as it was. i don't think we would have ever heard of diana, mj, stevie, marvin or any of the rest had motown not existed. i can't imagine any other label at that point in time pouring resources into black r&b artists, and striving to create a standard of excellence the way motown did. diana and the rest would have been marginalized at a larger label. i forget who it was, but they were talking about how once they left motown, and went to another label, they felt like they were 'ghetto-ized' or words to that effect.

but back to diana. she was driven, and as i alluded to in the post re: mary wilson, she had that 'extra'. a lot of people like to tear her down, but whatever her faults, i can't fault her for carving a path for those that followed, once she was pushed by berry.

whitney. i think the man in her life was clive davis. she would have been nowhere w/o him, whatever her relationship w/bobby.

beyonce. i agree. to the extent that she was already a well-established artist by the time jay-z came into her life, i give more credit to matthew than jay-z.

kibbles said:

Timmy84 said:

Diana - obviously in her early years, she was driven (if a little shy at first), Berry gave her motivation and confidence in a way her father never did, that's why she clinged on to Berry as long as she did and how she ended up being one of Berry's many girlfriends (while he was still married to someone else btw). I don't know how her career would've fared had she not been signed to Motown, maybe becoming an actress or, as her father would've liked, a college graduate/nurse of some sort.

Whitney - this is a case of someone who made hasty decisions as far as love goes. I won't go as far as blaming Bobby for Whitney's downfall. Whatever happened was Whitney's decision. We have to think about how she dealt with situations in her career and how come she picked Bobby over everyone else. I think it's a complex thing with Whitney & Bobby than has been let on. They both needed each other for something, maybe it was a consensual thing between the both of them. Maybe both of their careers wouldn't have had the problems it did when they were married, who knows?

Beyonce - I can't see Beyonce's career going as well as it has WITHOUT Mathew. He risked everything - including alienating Beyonce from friendships (mainly with the Destiny's Child members) - to make Beyonce a superstar. Mathew was the kind of person Joe Jackson TRIED to be: a successful businessman that was able to get his way with his pride & joy.

i agree with this.

diana (and everyone else signed to the label) owes a debt to motown for giving her that platform for her dreams. we tend to forget in this post-civil rights era how incredibly rare a business like motown was, and how 'shocking' that it was as successful as it was. i don't think we would have ever heard of diana, mj, stevie, marvin or any of the rest had motown not existed. i can't imagine any other label at that point in time pouring resources into black r&b artists, and striving to create a standard of excellence the way motown did. diana and the rest would have been marginalized at a larger label. i forget who it was, but they were talking about how once they left motown, and went to another label, they felt like they were 'ghetto-ized' or words to that effect.

but back to diana. she was driven, and as i alluded to in the post re: mary wilson, she had that 'extra'. a lot of people like to tear her down, but whatever her faults, i can't fault her for carving a path for those that followed, once she was pushed by berry.

whitney. i think the man in her life was clive davis. she would have been nowhere w/o him, whatever her relationship w/bobby.

beyonce. i agree. to the extent that she was already a well-established artist by the time jay-z came into her life, i give more credit to matthew than jay-z.

Oh yeah, Clive Davis was really the answer to Whitney. Who knows how her career would've fared overall without Clive. It's strange to imagine her in another label being pushed as much as Clive pushed her.