Does anybody here know any music theory? My theory book is at home

and my ear is shot. I think I have an interesting question:

I'm in the key of B major. The next tone in B major is C#. If I

play a C# dorian chord, instead of a C# major chord, wishing to remain

in the diatonic, is that dorian chord dissonant to the diatonic?

I am not near a piano, so I want to know!

EDIT: not that dissonance is a "bad" thing, I simply want to know if it

clashes against B major.

[Edited 8/11/11 12:24pm]

Do the listening thing

duccichucka said:

Does anybody here know any music theory? My theory book is at home

and my ear is shot. I think I have an interesting question:

I'm in the key of B major. The next tone in B major is C#. If I

play a C# dorian chord, instead of a C# major chord, wishing to remain

in the diatonic, is that dorian chord dissonant to the diatonic?

I am not near a piano, so I want to know!

EDIT: not that dissonance is a "bad" thing, I simply want to know if it

clashes against B major.

[Edited 8/11/11 12:24pm]

See......this is why I stay away from the theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_major

duccichucka said:

Does anybody here know any music theory? My theory book is at home

and my ear is shot. I think I have an interesting question:

I'm in the key of B major. The next tone in B major is C#. If I

play a C# dorian chord, instead of a C# major chord, wishing to remain

in the diatonic, is that dorian chord dissonant to the diatonic?

I am not near a piano, so I want to know!

EDIT: not that dissonance is a "bad" thing, I simply want to know if it

clashes against B major.

[Edited 8/11/11 12:24pm]

Hmm...I don't have a piano in front of me either...but usually if you're trying chord formation, they shouldn't clash terribly as long as you stay within the key signature of B major or switch to the relative minor key. I took advanced rudiments, but my knowledge on modes atm is somewhat hazy, since it's been over a year since I've taken my theory exam.

If you can get near a piano, try it out and let me know how it turns out. Good luck!

ThruTheEyesOfWonder said:

duccichucka said:

Does anybody here know any music theory? My theory book is at home

and my ear is shot. I think I have an interesting question:

I'm in the key of B major. The next tone in B major is C#. If I

play a C# dorian chord, instead of a C# major chord, wishing to remain

in the diatonic, is that dorian chord dissonant to the diatonic?

I am not near a piano, so I want to know!

EDIT: not that dissonance is a "bad" thing, I simply want to know if it

clashes against B major.

[Edited 8/11/11 12:24pm]

Hmm...I don't have a piano in front of me either...but usually if you're trying chord formation, they shouldn't clash terribly as long as you stay within the key signature of B major or switch to the relative minor key. I took advanced rudiments, but my knowledge on modes atm is somewhat hazy, since it's been over a year since I've taken my theory exam.

If you can get near a piano, try it out and let me know how it turns out. Good luck!

Wait, I got all of this wrong:

B major: B C# D# E F# G# A# B

The next diatonically chordal tone after B is C# dorian, not C#maj. C#major is not related to B major although it does sound pleasing to transition from Bmaj7 to C#maj7.

Try this one out guys!:

Bmaj7-C#maj7-Emaj7(b5)(13) ------------awesomeness

I digress.

So, if I was to play C# dorian diatonically, it would obviously not be clashing with B major. Dorian modes flat the 3rd and the 7th so C# dorian sounds "fine" in B major (C# dorian has the same 1-3-5 as C#m).

I shouldn't have needed a piano to figure that out. Thanks for the help dude.

And shunning theory is such an awful mistake for a musician. I use to hate it but once I figured that Mozart, Beethoven, Coltrane and Davis knew theory forwards and backwards, then my sorry ass should learn theory forwards and backwards too.

duccichucka said:

ThruTheEyesOfWonder said:

Hmm...I don't have a piano in front of me either...but usually if you're trying chord formation, they shouldn't clash terribly as long as you stay within the key signature of B major or switch to the relative minor key. I took advanced rudiments, but my knowledge on modes atm is somewhat hazy, since it's been over a year since I've taken my theory exam.

If you can get near a piano, try it out and let me know how it turns out. Good luck!

Wait, I got all of this wrong:

B major: B C# D# E F# G# A# B

The next diatonically chordal tone after B is C# dorian, not C#maj. C#major is not related to B major although it does sound pleasing to transition from Bmaj7 to C#maj7.

Try this one out guys!:

Bmaj7-C#maj7-Emaj7(b5)(13) ------------awesomeness

I digress.

So, if I was to play C# dorian diatonically, it would obviously not be clashing with B major. Dorian modes flat the 3rd and the 7th so C# dorian sounds "fine" in B major (C# dorian has the same 1-3-5 as C#m).

I shouldn't have needed a piano to figure that out. Thanks for the help dude.

And shunning theory is such an awful mistake for a musician. I use to hate it but once I figured that Mozart, Beethoven, Coltrane and Davis knew theory forwards and backwards, then my sorry ass should learn theory forwards and backwards too.

I'll give you a little hint for remembering your key signatures.

I use this acronym:

Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle (Always in this order cuz that's how they're written on the staff)

The bolded letters are sharps. To find out which key you're in, go up half a step from the last sharp.

For example, for B major, you have F, C, G, D, A sharp. half a step up from A # is B. See? That easy.

Another example, G major. F sharp...half a step up from that is G, your tonic note.

For the flats, just remember this B, E, A, D, G, C, F

Easy to remember, first word is "BEAD". It's easier this time. You only add an extra flat to the flat that is your tonic major.

Example: E flat major key signature: B, E, A (the flat before it is E; to write the signature, add on A flat and that's it)

B flat major: B, E (see it? Add on E flat, and you got the signature for B flat major)

The only key that has no sharps or flats is C major. To find relative minor keys, count back 3 semi-tones (or half steps) from the tonic major.

And yes, I agree. Learning music theory is learning the language of music. Wherever you go, it's always the same. Always a good investment and I commend you for putting the time in to learn it.

PS. I'm a girl.

[Edited 8/12/11 8:55am]

[Edited 8/12/11 8:57am]

ThruTheEyesOfWonder said:

duccichucka said:

Wait, I got all of this wrong:

B major: B C# D# E F# G# A# B

The next diatonically chordal tone after B is C# dorian, not C#maj. C#major is not related to B major although it does sound pleasing to transition from Bmaj7 to C#maj7.

Try this one out guys!:

Bmaj7-C#maj7-Emaj7(b5)(13) ------------awesomeness

I digress.

So, if I was to play C# dorian diatonically, it would obviously not be clashing with B major. Dorian modes flat the 3rd and the 7th so C# dorian sounds "fine" in B major (C# dorian has the same 1-3-5 as C#m).

I shouldn't have needed a piano to figure that out. Thanks for the help dude.

And shunning theory is such an awful mistake for a musician. I use to hate it but once I figured that Mozart, Beethoven, Coltrane and Davis knew theory forwards and backwards, then my sorry ass should learn theory forwards and backwards too.

I'll give you a little hint for remembering your key signatures.

I use this acronym:

Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle (Always in this order cuz that's how they're written on the staff)

The bolded letters are sharps. To find out which key you're in, go up half a step from the last sharp.

For example, for B major, you have F, C, G, D, A sharp. half a step up from A # is B. See? That easy.

Another example, G major. F sharp...half a step up from that is G, your tonic note.

For the flats, just remember this B, E, A, D, G, C, F

Easy to remember, first word is "BEAD". It's easier this time. You only add an extra flat to the flat that is your tonic major.

Example: E flat major key signature: B, E, A (the flat before it is E; to write the signature, add on A flat and that's it)

B flat major: B, E (see it? Add on E flat, and you got the signature for B flat major)

The only key that has no sharps or flats is C major. To find relative minor keys, count back 3 semi-tones (or half steps) from the tonic major.

And yes, I agree. Learning music theory is learning the language of music. Wherever you go, it's always the same. Always a good investment and I commend you for putting the time in to learn it.

PS. I'm a girl.

[Edited 8/12/11 8:55am]

[Edited 8/12/11 8:57am]

Ha!

That is definitely a good pneumatic for remembering your keys. I got those down many years ago. I was just having problems remembering my modes and the chords associated with them (Ionian = 1-3-5-7, Dorian = 1, 3b-5-7b, and so on) and whether or not C# dorian clashed with B major, stupidly. But you were right about everything you said.

And I call everyone "dude" - including my wife!

Thanks for your help. See ya around.

duccichucka said:

ThruTheEyesOfWonder said:

Hmm...I don't have a piano in front of me either...but usually if you're trying chord formation, they shouldn't clash terribly as long as you stay within the key signature of B major or switch to the relative minor key. I took advanced rudiments, but my knowledge on modes atm is somewhat hazy, since it's been over a year since I've taken my theory exam.

If you can get near a piano, try it out and let me know how it turns out. Good luck!

Wait, I got all of this wrong:

B major: B C# D# E F# G# A# B

That's not right.

It should be: B C#m D#m E F# G#m A# B

I have not really ever heard of chords themselves referred to as "dorian" etc, that is what they call the modes (scales)

But if I get your question, you are talking about a chord based on C# dorian mode, which would be c#m7, and that would be in the key of B major

But a C#Maj chord would only be in the key of C# or G# (or it could be the V chord of F# if you are only playing the I III & V and not the VII note of the chord)

MattyJam said:

duccichucka said:

Wait, I got all of this wrong:

B major: B C# D# E F# G# A# B

That's not right.

It should be: B C#m D#m E F# G#m A# B

Matty, you are mistaken, captain. The key of B major is notated as:

B, C♯, D♯, E, F♯, G♯, A♯, B ---- C# min and D# min, as you listed, is incorrect notation. I'm speaking of modes, dude: C# dorian, and it's 1-3b-5-7b pitches are obviously the same as to be found in C# minor. The reason for this is the Dorian mode always flats the 3rd and the 7th*. And you know that 1-3-5 with a flatted third makes for a minor chord (in a 1-3-5 chord). But again, my original query was about whether or not the dorian of B major would clash against playing a B major chord 7th. Here is what I was thinking. What would happen if I played:

Left hand: B major 1-3-5-7

Right hand: C# dorian 1-3b-5-7b

NDRU, you didn't read my posts carefully. I corrected myself regarding C# major not being the dorian mode of B major in my second post. I don't know how you could miss that. Then I clearly stated that C#, in the dorian mode, is 1-3b-5-7b making it a C#m7 - that is implicit, captain. I am talking about the application of B major's modes, not B major's pitches.

I think you guys are coming at me the wrong way: Yes, C#min7 has the same pitches in it's 1-3b-5-7b that are found in C# dorian's 1-3b-5-7b pitches. *But the Dorian raises the 6th pitch

a semi-tone!* Thus, they (Dorian and perfect minor scales) are not the same.

We should start a music theory forum or ask for one to be started where we talk about

theory, chord progressions, etc. I love that shit.

MattyJam said:

duccichucka said:

Wait, I got all of this wrong:

B major: B C# D# E F# G# A# B

That's not right.

It should be: B C#m D#m E F# G#m A# B

I think you guys are both right, Chuck is listing the notes in B major and Matty is listing the chords (except I think A# should be diminished, though I know there are different rules for that too)

[Edited 8/12/11 17:28pm]

duccichucka said:

NDRU, you didn't read my posts carefully. I corrected myself regarding C# major not being the dorian mode of B major in my second post. I don't know how you could miss that. Then I clearly stated that C#, in the dorian mode, is 1-3b-5-7b making it a C#m7 - that is implicit, captain. I am talking about the application of B major's modes, not B major's pitches.

true, I was addressing the original question, sorry I did not read on!

[Edited 8/12/11 17:42pm]

NDRU said:

I have not really ever heard of chords themselves referred to as "dorian" etc, that is what they call the modes (scales)

But if I get your question, you are talking about a chord based on C# dorian mode, which would be c#m7, and that would be in the key of B major

But a C#Maj chord would only be in the key of C# or G# (or it could be the V chord of F# if you are only playing the I III & V and not the VII note of the chord)

To all of NDRU comments.

Specifically to NDRU comments I highlighted...

C Sharp Dorian is the second mode of the B major scale

C# Dorian Scale Notes: C# D# E F# G# A# B

Dorian Scale Formula: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Dorian scale mode is built on the second degree of a major scale, using the same notes as that major scale. So, it's sequence of intervals would be w-h-w-w-w-h-w, ..., the major scale's intervals shifted to the right by one.

TD3 said:

NDRU said:

I have not really ever heard of chords themselves referred to as "dorian" etc, that is what they call the modes (scales)

But if I get your question, you are talking about a chord based on C# dorian mode, which would be c#m7, and that would be in the key of B major

But a C#Maj chord would only be in the key of C# or G# (or it could be the V chord of F# if you are only playing the I III & V and not the VII note of the chord)

To all of NDRU comments.

Specifically to NDRU comments I highlighted...

C Sharp Dorian is the second mode of the B major scale

C# Dorian Scale Notes: C# D# E F# G# A# B

Dorian Scale Formula: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Dorian scale mode is built on the second degree of a major scale, using the same notes as that major scale. So, it's sequence of intervals would be w-h-w-w-w-h-w, ..., the major scale's intervals shifted to the right by one.

Other than the emoticon, you've contributed nothing to this conversation. Everything

you just said has already been mentioned by yours truly, captain:

1. I've already stated that C# dorian is the 2nd mode of the B major Scale

2. I've already listed a Dorian "chord" formula (1-3b-5-7b) indicating the pitches for said "chord" which also implicitly indicates that 2 and 4 do not change from the tonic. But that the 6th is a semitone.

Read all the posts before you try to school someone dude!

See ya around.

I mean, how else can I further elaborate that I realized, before anyone corrected me,

that I was wrong?

duccichucka said:

ThruTheEyesOfWonder said:

Hmm...I don't have a piano in front of me either...but usually if you're trying chord formation, they shouldn't clash terribly as long as you stay within the key signature of B major or switch to the relative minor key. I took advanced rudiments, but my knowledge on modes atm is somewhat hazy, since it's been over a year since I've taken my theory exam.

If you can get near a piano, try it out and let me know how it turns out. Good luck!

Wait, I got all of this wrong:

B major: B C# D# E F# G# A# B

The next diatonically chordal tone after B is C# dorian, not C#maj. C#major is not related to B major although it does sound pleasing to transition from Bmaj7 to C#maj7.

Try this one out guys!:

Bmaj7-C#maj7-Emaj7(b5)(13) ------------awesomeness

I digress.

So, if I was to play C# dorian diatonically, it would obviously not be clashing with B major. Dorian modes flat the 3rd and the 7th so C# dorian sounds "fine" in B major (C# dorian has the same 1-3-5 as C#m).

I shouldn't have needed a piano to figure that out. Thanks for the help dude.

And shunning theory is such an awful mistake for a musician. I use to hate it but once I figured that Mozart, Beethoven, Coltrane and Davis knew theory forwards and backwards, then my sorry ass should learn theory forwards and backwards too.

Jeezus. Stop jumping down my throat! All I wanted to know is if I could play a Bmajor7 with the left and with a C# Dorian's 1-3b-5-7b played by the right.

Sheesh!

NDRU said:

duccichucka said:

NDRU, you didn't read my posts carefully. I corrected myself regarding C# major not being the dorian mode of B major in my second post. I don't know how you could miss that. Then I clearly stated that C#, in the dorian mode, is 1-3b-5-7b making it a C#m7 - that is implicit, captain. I am talking about the application of B major's modes, not B major's pitches.

true, I was addressing the original question, sorry I did not read on!

[Edited 8/12/11 17:42pm]

NDRU, you are right. I was so bent out of shape that I didn't realize that what Matt was doing was right alongside my own explanation.

Sorry to Matt, thank you to ND.

duccichucka said:

TD3 said:

To all of NDRU comments.

Specifically to NDRU comments I highlighted...

C Sharp Dorian is the second mode of the B major scale

C# Dorian Scale Notes: C# D# E F# G# A# B

Dorian Scale Formula: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Dorian scale mode is built on the second degree of a major scale, using the same notes as that major scale. So, it's sequence of intervals would be w-h-w-w-w-h-w, ..., the major scale's intervals shifted to the right by one.

Other than the emoticon, you've contributed nothing to this conversation. Everything

you just said has already been mentioned by yours truly, captain:

1. I've already stated that C# dorian is the 2nd mode of the B major Scale

2. I've already listed a Dorian "chord" formula (1-3b-5-7b) indicating the pitches for said "chord" which also implicitly indicates that 2 and 4 do not change from the tonic. But that the 6th is a semitone.

Read all the posts before you try to school someone dude!

See ya around.

Save me the condescending tone...

They're other people on this board besides those who've contributed to your thread... who just may be interested in music theory. The thing is, I didn't address my reply to you because I thought NDRU explanation was spot on and pretty concise... but I decided to give another minds eye on how to see things. I know what NDRU knows.

The only thing you appear to be really good at, is being boorish.

TD3 said:

duccichucka said:

Other than the emoticon, you've contributed nothing to this conversation. Everything

you just said has already been mentioned by yours truly, captain:

1. I've already stated that C# dorian is the 2nd mode of the B major Scale

2. I've already listed a Dorian "chord" formula (1-3b-5-7b) indicating the pitches for said "chord" which also implicitly indicates that 2 and 4 do not change from the tonic. But that the 6th is a semitone.

Read all the posts before you try to school someone dude!

See ya around.

Save me the condescending tone...

They're other people on this board besides those who've contributed to your thread... who just may be interested in music theory. The thing is, I didn't address my reply to you because I thought NDRU explanation was spot on and pretty concise... but I decided to give another minds eye on how to see things. I know what NDRU knows.

The only thing you appear to be really good at, is being boorish.

Boorish = incapable of pleasantly dealing with incapability