rialb said:

ThePopLover2 said:

I'm sorry, what you are saying makes no sense to me at all. If Jam and Lewis were doing music way before Janet came along and it WAS NOT groundbreaking, But When Janet was ABLE to control her music and collaborated with Jam and Lewis. HOW DO YOU KNOW that Jam and Lewis took more involvemet in Janet's music? You just basing it on assumptions

[Edited 8/8/11 12:09pm]

Who said anything about groundbreaking music? Not me.

How do I know that Jam and Lewis took more involvement in her music? I'm not entirely sure I understand what you are saying but Jam and Lewis are musicians while Janet is not. If you compare her first two albums with what came after I think it is crystal clear what Jam and Lewis did.

My point is that as far as her music goes Jam and Lewis deserve at least equal credit and I would argue more credit than Janet.

You're not Listening

. I just said that "WHEN Janet was ABLE to control her music". Janet did not have a say in her music when she was only 15 years old! Anyone on this board can tell you that.

You were Not there when Janet AND Jam and Lewis made the music so you shouldn't challenge their credability. period.

I could see if janet was writting and producing her own stuff and when Jam and Lewis came along Janet became popular, THEN I would see where you are coming from however that is not the case

[Edited 8/8/11 13:31pm]

ThePopLover2 said:

rialb said:

Who said anything about groundbreaking music? Not me.

How do I know that Jam and Lewis took more involvement in her music? I'm not entirely sure I understand what you are saying but Jam and Lewis are musicians while Janet is not. If you compare her first two albums with what came after I think it is crystal clear what Jam and Lewis did.

My point is that as far as her music goes Jam and Lewis deserve at least equal credit and I would argue more credit than Janet.

You're not Listening

. I just said that "WHEN Janet was ABLE to control her music". Janet did not have a say in her music when she was only 15 years old! Anyone on this board can tell you that.

You were Not there when Janet AND Jam and Lewis made the music so you shouldn't challenge their credability. period.

I could see if janet was writting and producing her own stuff and when Jam and Lewis came along Janet became popular, THEN I would see where you are coming from however that is not the case

[Edited 8/8/11 13:31pm]

if it was all jimmy and terry, why didn't the several 100s other' artist they work with not end up as successful as janet????

its because janet had the WHOLE package, the dance, the videos, the image, and ability to perform, plus attitude and hunger. Thats something no producer can create.

rialb said:

Musicslave said:

When they won their Grammy for Producer of the Year in '87 odds are it wasn't mainly for their R&B hits from artist like Cherrelle and S.O.S Band. It was the Janet hits that helped garnered them that award. I'm not taking anything away from my boys, don't get me wrong. But more than likely, it was the recognition of their work with Jan and probably Human League that really got them noticed by the academy. For Reals.

I guess what I'm saying is that they basically helped put each other on a more POPular map. No disrespect to my early Flyte Tyme productions either! Still love those songs.

[Edited 8/8/11 12:25pm]

I think we are basically on the same page. I just think that when we are talking about Janet Jackson's music that it is impossible to overstate how important Jam and Lewis were to her success. If Janet is a legend it is largely due to the music that Jam and Lewis created.

I agree.

TotalAlisa said:

ThePopLover2 said:

You're not Listening

. I just said that "WHEN Janet was ABLE to control her music". Janet did not have a say in her music when she was only 15 years old! Anyone on this board can tell you that.

You were Not there when Janet AND Jam and Lewis made the music so you shouldn't challenge their credability. period.

I could see if janet was writting and producing her own stuff and when Jam and Lewis came along Janet became popular, THEN I would see where you are coming from however that is not the case

[Edited 8/8/11 13:31pm]

if it was all jimmy and terry, why didn't the several 100s other' artist they work with not end up as successful as janet????

its because janet had the WHOLE package, the dance, the videos, the image, and ability to perform, plus attitude and hunger. Thats something no producer can create.

maybe because the other artist were not about dancing and choreographer and image. Yeah janet had the whole package, but I still believe JJ and TL AS MUSICIANS which Janet is not, had as much to do with her success as she did as the songs to me were clear hits. I was a big fan of "What Have You Done for me Lately" even before i saw the video. The musical arrangements of the songs were clear winners. I don't see Janet jackson producing, and writing and song on her own.

[Edited 8/8/11 13:42pm]

wonder505 said:

TotalAlisa said:

if it was all jimmy and terry, why didn't the several 100s other' artist they work with not end up as successful as janet????

its because janet had the WHOLE package, the dance, the videos, the image, and ability to perform, plus attitude and hunger. Thats something no producer can create.

maybe because the other artist were not about dancing and choreographer and image. Yeah janet had the whole package, but I still believe JJ and TL AS MUSICIANS which Janet is not, had as much to do with her success as she did as the songs to me were clear hits. I was a big fan of "What Have You Done for me Lately" even before i saw the video. The musical arrangements of the songs were clear winners. I don't see Janet jackson producing, and writing and song on her own.

[Edited 8/8/11 13:42pm]

once again, You do not know If she had a huge Involvement in her work or not. period.

rialb said:

Musicslave said:

When they won their Grammy for Producer of the Year in '87 odds are it wasn't mainly for their R&B hits from artist like Cherrelle and S.O.S Band. It was the Janet hits that helped garnered them that award. I'm not taking anything away from my boys, don't get me wrong. But more than likely, it was the recognition of their work with Jan and probably Human League that really got them noticed by the academy. For Reals.

I guess what I'm saying is that they basically helped put each other on a more POPular map. No disrespect to my early Flyte Tyme productions either! Still love those songs.

[Edited 8/8/11 12:25pm]

I think we are basically on the same page. I just think that when we are talking about Janet Jackson's music that it is impossible to overstate how important Jam and Lewis were to her success. If Janet is a legend it is largely due to the music that Jam and Lewis created together.

Fixed I have to respectively disagree. If Janet was more of an puppet artist like say, Britney Spears or a Whitney Houston I would have to agree. These artist generally do not contribute creatively to the process of songwriting or music production as far as I know. That's not Janet. Janet and Jimmy both have talked about how she may bring a melody or a lyric to the studio and they flesh out the rest as a team. Or, Jam & Lewis brings something to the table and she adds to it or take away what she wants as the recording artist. Her album co-writing and co-producing credits alone dispute your claim.

Were they instrumental in her success, of course. But you can't discredit what it is she brings to the process either.

wonder505 said:

TotalAlisa said:

if it was all jimmy and terry, why didn't the several 100s other' artist they work with not end up as successful as janet????

its because janet had the WHOLE package, the dance, the videos, the image, and ability to perform, plus attitude and hunger. Thats something no producer can create.

maybe because the other artist were not about dancing and choreographer and image. Yeah janet had the whole package, but I still believe JJ and TL AS MUSICIANS which Janet is not, had as much to do with her success as she did as the songs to me were clear hits. I was a big fan of "What Have You Done for me Lately" even before i saw the video. The musical arrangements of the songs were clear winners. I don't see Janet jackson producing, and writing and song on her own.

[Edited 8/8/11 13:42pm]

so do you give Quincy Jones all the credit for MJ's successful albums????

why is it when it comes to janet every one gives Jimmy and Terry all the credit

but MJ had Quincy and his best albums were created when Quincy was co-executive producer.

And last time I checked janet did write for the control album and has produced before. The only album janet did not produce or write was the Discipline album. The whole reason why her dad even made her sing was because Janet wrote and produced a demo in their home studio and Joe heard the song and got janet a record deal.

TotalAlisa said:

wonder505 said:

maybe because the other artist were not about dancing and choreographer and image. Yeah janet had the whole package, but I still believe JJ and TL AS MUSICIANS which Janet is not, had as much to do with her success as she did as the songs to me were clear hits. I was a big fan of "What Have You Done for me Lately" even before i saw the video. The musical arrangements of the songs were clear winners. I don't see Janet jackson producing, and writing and song on her own.

[Edited 8/8/11 13:42pm]

so do you give Quincy Jones all the credit for MJ's successful albums????

why is it when it comes to janet every one gives Jimmy and Terry all the credit

but MJ had Quincy and his best albums were created when Quincy was co-executive producer.

And last time I checked janet did write for the control album and has produced before. The only album janet did not produce or write was the Discipline album. The whole reason why her dad even made her sing was because Janet wrote and produced a demo in their home studio and Joe heard the song and got janet a record deal.

WHERE DID I SAY THAT JJ AND TL DESERVE "ALL" THE CREDIT for Janet's overall success?? I say they deserve equal credit if not more for the actual songs. i'm sure she had input but janet is not a musician and to me its the genius of JJ and TL musicianship of the creation of the songs that made them hits. I didn't find it surprising that she didn't write any music for Discipline ,cuz jj and tl were not really involved with it. some musician she is.. and YOU DAMN RIGHT I will credit Quincy Jones for the success of MJ's songs they worked on , why wouldn't I or anyone else??? I'm happy that you see Janet as this incredible musician, composer writer whatever I but I don't. get over it. we all have different opinions.

[Edited 8/8/11 14:47pm]

wonder505 said:

TotalAlisa said:

so do you give Quincy Jones all the credit for MJ's successful albums????

why is it when it comes to janet every one gives Jimmy and Terry all the credit

but MJ had Quincy and his best albums were created when Quincy was co-executive producer.

And last time I checked janet did write for the control album and has produced before. The only album janet did not produce or write was the Discipline album. The whole reason why her dad even made her sing was because Janet wrote and produced a demo in their home studio and Joe heard the song and got janet a record deal.

WHERE DID I SAY THAT JJ AND TL DESERVE "ALL" THE CREDIT for Janet's overall success?? I say they deserve equal credit if not more for the actual songs. i'm sure she had input but janet is not a musician and to me its the genius of JJ and TL musicianship of the creation of the songs that made them hits. I didn't find it surprising that she didn't write any music for Discipline ,cuz jj and tl were not really involved with it. some musician she is.. and YOU DAMN RIGHT I will credit Quincy Jones for the success of MJ's songs they worked on , why wouldn't I or anyone else??? I'm happy that you see Janet as this incredible musician, composer writer whatever I but I don't. get over it. we all have different opinions.

[Edited 8/8/11 14:47pm]

Here what's getting me. You're making it sound like Just because Janet isnt a musician like Prince or the MOZART automatically disqualifies her as having a bigger input in her music tha Jam and Lewis. Jam and lewis already tried to use Janet's sound on a woman named Karyn white

http://www.youtube.com/wa...detailpage

Sounds exactly like "Alright" by Janet, but once again which song became more popular? the one done with JANET right?

[Edited 8/8/11 15:13pm]

rialb said:

Is Janet a legend all by herself? No, not in my opinion. Is the unit of Janet Jackson, Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis legendary? Maybe. Take away Jam and Lewis and where would Janet be?

I agree with this.

...and the inexhaustible debate rages on!

ThePopLover2 said:

rialb said:

Who said anything about groundbreaking music? Not me.

How do I know that Jam and Lewis took more involvement in her music? I'm not entirely sure I understand what you are saying but Jam and Lewis are musicians while Janet is not. If you compare her first two albums with what came after I think it is crystal clear what Jam and Lewis did.

My point is that as far as her music goes Jam and Lewis deserve at least equal credit and I would argue more credit than Janet.

You're not Listening

. I just said that "WHEN Janet was ABLE to control her music". Janet did not have a say in her music when she was only 15 years old! Anyone on this board can tell you that.

You were Not there when Janet AND Jam and Lewis made the music so you shouldn't challenge their credability. period.

I could see if janet was writting and producing her own stuff and when Jam and Lewis came along Janet became popular, THEN I would see where you are coming from however that is not the case

[Edited 8/8/11 13:31pm]

I'm listening but I was having trouble understanding your point. Now I understand where you are coming from but I still disagree. I see Janet as a lyricist, not a musician. Yes, I know that "Black Cat" is credited solely to Janet but that is an anomaly. Without Jam and Lewis writing her music I do not believe that she would have gotten very far with just her lyrics.

I think there is a reason that Janet has never released an album where she is the sole songwriter. She needs others to write the music. This is not necessarily a slight against Janet. I love Alice Cooper but he is not a musician either and he needs others to write the music. Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald are two of the greatest singers of the twentieth century but they wrote very few songs. Does that mean they are inferior to people that wrote their own lyrics and music? Of course not, it just means that they were great singers, not great songwriters.

rialb said:

ThePopLover2 said:

You're not Listening

. I just said that "WHEN Janet was ABLE to control her music". Janet did not have a say in her music when she was only 15 years old! Anyone on this board can tell you that.

You were Not there when Janet AND Jam and Lewis made the music so you shouldn't challenge their credability. period.

I could see if janet was writting and producing her own stuff and when Jam and Lewis came along Janet became popular, THEN I would see where you are coming from however that is not the case

[Edited 8/8/11 13:31pm]

I'm listening but I was having trouble understanding your point. Now I understand where you are coming from but I still disagree. I see Janet as a lyricist, not a musician. Yes, I know that "Black Cat" is credited solely to Janet but that is an anomaly. Without Jam and Lewis to help write her music I do not believe that she would have gotten very far with just her lyrics.

I think there is a reason that Janet has never released an album where she is the sole songwriter. She needs others to write the music. This is not necessarily a slight against Janet. I love Alice Cooper but he is not a musician either and he needs others to write the music. Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald are two of the greatest singers of the twentieth century but they wrote very few songs. Does that mean they are inferior to people that wrote their own lyrics and music? Of course not, it just means that they were great singers, not great songwriters.

Sounds better. I mean that is what producers do right?

Musicslave said:

rialb said:

I think we are basically on the same page. I just think that when we are talking about Janet Jackson's music that it is impossible to overstate how important Jam and Lewis were to her success. If Janet is a legend it is largely due to the music that Jam and Lewis created together.

Fixed I have to respectively disagree. If Janet was more of an puppet artist like say, Britney Spears or a Whitney Houston I would have to agree. These artist generally do not contribute creatively to the process of songwriting or music production as far as I know. That's not Janet. Janet and Jimmy both have talked about how she may bring a melody or a lyric to the studio and they flesh out the rest as a team. Or, Jam & Lewis brings something to the table and she adds to it or take away what she wants as the recording artist. Her album co-writing and co-producing credits alone dispute your claim.

Were they instrumental in her success, of course. But you can't discredit what it is she brings to the process either.

I just do not buy into those production credits that she receives on her albums. There is a reason that every song that she has a producer credit on also credits a co-producer. Could she, even at her commercial peak, have produced hit songs for other artists all buy herself? Maybe, but I doubt it. What would she come up with if you locked her in a studio alone and asked her to write and produce a song? Note that I was very specific when I gave Jam and Lewis credit for the music. Do I believe that Janet writes her own lyrics? Sure, but it seems very likely that Jam and Lewis were the ones responsible for the music. As I said in a previous post, yes, Janet is credited as the sole writer of "Black Cat" but that is very much an anomaly. Over the course of her nearly thirty year career she has not written enough songs on her own to fill an ep.

I'm not saying all this stuff to try to tear Janet down but to build Jam and Lewis up. To most of the general public Jam and Lewis are nobodies but I think they are absolutely essential to the success that Janet has had and I very much see the three of them as a team.

rialb said:

ThePopLover2 said:

You're not Listening

. I just said that "WHEN Janet was ABLE to control her music". Janet did not have a say in her music when she was only 15 years old! Anyone on this board can tell you that.

You were Not there when Janet AND Jam and Lewis made the music so you shouldn't challenge their credability. period.

I could see if janet was writting and producing her own stuff and when Jam and Lewis came along Janet became popular, THEN I would see where you are coming from however that is not the case

[Edited 8/8/11 13:31pm]

I'm listening but I was having trouble understanding your point. Now I understand where you are coming from but I still disagree. I see Janet as a lyricist, not a musician. Yes, I know that "Black Cat" is credited solely to Janet but that is an anomaly. Without Jam and Lewis writing her music I do not believe that she would have gotten very far with just her lyrics.

I think there is a reason that Janet has never released an album where she is the sole songwriter. She needs others to write the music. This is not necessarily a slight against Janet. I love Alice Cooper but he is not a musician either and he needs others to write the music. Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald are two of the greatest singers of the twentieth century but they wrote very few songs. Does that mean they are inferior to people that wrote their own lyrics and music? Of course not, it just means that they were great singers, not great songwriters.

Hell, that statement can be made for a myriad of singers from the last two decades alone.

The term "musician" is subjective. Some people feel a musician is anyone who can sing and/or write a song. Others feel a musician is someone who has mastered an instrument or several. Others feel both would have to apply. Janet is a musician. She's a singer, she plays keys, she's written songs and created melodies. For me, a musician can be anyone from Mozart to Whitney Houston. If you are musically inclined in any way, be it a singer, a lyricist, a drummer, guitar player...whatever. Janet was the one who came up with the Indian chant melodies for "If". She developed the melody of the verses for "That's The Way Love Goes". She wrote "Black Cat" alone, and co-produced it with Jellybean Johnson without the aid of JJ/TL. Several songs from her albums she's written solely, with JJ/TL supplying the music only. This is why when JJ/TL produce music for other artists, it doesn't have that same impact that the music they create with Janet has. She puts her stamp on it by co-creating or creating it.

But, to turn this back to the subject at hand, yes, she's a pop music legend.

[Edited 8/8/11 15:42pm]

@ this whole thread.

ThePopLover2 said:

wonder505 said:

WHERE DID I SAY THAT JJ AND TL DESERVE "ALL" THE CREDIT for Janet's overall success?? I say they deserve equal credit if not more for the actual songs. i'm sure she had input but janet is not a musician and to me its the genius of JJ and TL musicianship of the creation of the songs that made them hits. I didn't find it surprising that she didn't write any music for Discipline ,cuz jj and tl were not really involved with it. some musician she is.. and YOU DAMN RIGHT I will credit Quincy Jones for the success of MJ's songs they worked on , why wouldn't I or anyone else??? I'm happy that you see Janet as this incredible musician, composer writer whatever I but I don't. get over it. we all have different opinions.

[Edited 8/8/11 14:47pm]

Here what's getting me. You're making it sound like Just because Janet isnt a musician like Prince or the MOZART automatically disqualifies her as having a bigger input in her music tha Jam and Lewis. Jam and lewis already tried to use Janet's sound on a woman named Karyn white

http://www.youtube.com/wa...detailpage

Sounds exactly like "Alright" by Janet, but once again which song became more popular? the one done with JANET right?

[Edited 8/8/11 15:13pm]

Sounds to me like you can't accept the fact that people have different opinion that you. Yes in view of her success it was Jam and Lewis, the musicians who had a big impact on the creation of her songs. I'm sure they all helped each other, not saying that janet didn't have input, but JJ and TL was very beneficial to "Janet's sound". again, they have much to do with her success as janet. i think its very silly to downplay the role they had in it. sorry if you see it differently but that's just me.

[Edited 8/8/11 15:40pm]

ThePopLover2 said:

rialb said:

I'm listening but I was having trouble understanding your point. Now I understand where you are coming from but I still disagree. I see Janet as a lyricist, not a musician. Yes, I know that "Black Cat" is credited solely to Janet but that is an anomaly. Without Jam and Lewis to help write her music I do not believe that she would have gotten very far with just her lyrics.

I think there is a reason that Janet has never released an album where she is the sole songwriter. She needs others to write the music. This is not necessarily a slight against Janet. I love Alice Cooper but he is not a musician either and he needs others to write the music. Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald are two of the greatest singers of the twentieth century but they wrote very few songs. Does that mean they are inferior to people that wrote their own lyrics and music? Of course not, it just means that they were great singers, not great songwriters.

Sounds better. I mean that is what producers do right?

Not necessarily. George Martin was never given co-writing credit on the albums he produced for The Beatles. Many producers do not receive songwriting credit. It tends to vary by genre. Sometimes the producer is instrumental to the songwriting (for example, Motown in the '60s) other times their primary job is to create and capture a specific sound (most rock bands write their own music and the producer helps them to achieve a specific sound).

SEANMAN said:

rialb said:

I'm listening but I was having trouble understanding your point. Now I understand where you are coming from but I still disagree. I see Janet as a lyricist, not a musician. Yes, I know that "Black Cat" is credited solely to Janet but that is an anomaly. Without Jam and Lewis writing her music I do not believe that she would have gotten very far with just her lyrics.

I think there is a reason that Janet has never released an album where she is the sole songwriter. She needs others to write the music. This is not necessarily a slight against Janet. I love Alice Cooper but he is not a musician either and he needs others to write the music. Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald are two of the greatest singers of the twentieth century but they wrote very few songs. Does that mean they are inferior to people that wrote their own lyrics and music? Of course not, it just means that they were great singers, not great songwriters.

Hell, that statement can be made for a myriad of singers from the last two decades alone.

The term "musician" is subjective. Some people feel a musician is anyone who can sing and/or write a song. Others feel a musician is someone who has mastered an instrument or several. Others feel both would have to apply. Janet is a musician. She's a singer, she plays keys, she's written songs and created melodies. For me, a musician can be anyone from Mozart to Whitney Houston. If you are musically inclined in any way, be it a singer, a lyricist, a drummer, guitar player...whatever. Janet was the one who came up with the Indian chant melodies for "If". She developed the melody of the verses for "That's The Way Love Goes". She wrote "Black Cat" alone, and co-produced it with Jellybean Johnson without the aid of JJ/TL. Several songs from her albums she's written solely, with JJ/TL supplying the music only.

But, to turn this back to the subject at hand, yes, she's a pop music legend.

[Edited 8/8/11 15:39pm]

The only song I know she wrote alone in her entire catalgo was Black Cat. Which songs has she written soley? is this documented or hearsay? and you're right, its all subjective so why can't yall respect others who see "musician" their own way.

[Edited 8/8/11 15:43pm]

rialb said:

Musicslave said:

Fixed I have to respectively disagree. If Janet was more of an puppet artist like say, Britney Spears or a Whitney Houston I would have to agree. These artist generally do not contribute creatively to the process of songwriting or music production as far as I know. That's not Janet. Janet and Jimmy both have talked about how she may bring a melody or a lyric to the studio and they flesh out the rest as a team. Or, Jam & Lewis brings something to the table and she adds to it or take away what she wants as the recording artist. Her album co-writing and co-producing credits alone dispute your claim.

Were they instrumental in her success, of course. But you can't discredit what it is she brings to the process either.

I just do not buy into those production credits that she receives on her albums. There is a reason that every song that she has a producer credit on also credits a co-producer. Could she, even at her commercial peak, have produced hit songs for other artists all buy herself? Maybe, but I doubt it. What would she come up with if you locked her in a studio alone and asked her to write and produce a song? Note that I was very specific when I gave Jam and Lewis credit for the music. Do I believe that Janet writes her own lyrics? Sure, but it seems very likely that Jam and Lewis were the ones responsible for the music. As I said in a previous post, yes, Janet is credited as the sole writer of "Black Cat" but that is very much an anomaly. Over the course of her nearly thirty year career she has not written enough songs on her own to fill an ep.

I'm not saying all this stuff to try to tear Janet down but to build Jam and Lewis up. To most of the general public Jam and Lewis are nobodies but I think they are absolutely essential to the success that Janet has had and I very much see the three of them as a team.

Thank you! We're on the same page and I agree. Plus she did admit during interviews from her last album that she took credit for songs she didn't write either. I'm sure that happens all the time so i'm not knocking but sort of adds more to your point.

purplethunder3121 said:

SEANMAN said:

rialb said:

I'm listening but I was having trouble understanding your point. Now I understand where you are coming from but I still disagree. I see Janet as a lyricist, not a musician. Yes, I know that "Black Cat" is credited solely to Janet but that is an anomaly. Without Jam and Lewis writing her music I do not believe that she would have gotten very far with just her lyrics.

I think there is a reason that Janet has never released an album where she is the sole songwriter. She needs others to write the music. This is not necessarily a slight against Janet. I love Alice Cooper but he is not a musician either and he needs others to write the music. Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald are two of the greatest singers of the twentieth century but they wrote very few songs. Does that mean they are inferior to people that wrote their own lyrics and music? Of course not, it just means that they were great singers, not great songwriters.

Hell, that statement can be made for a myriad of singers from the last two decades alone.

The term "musician" is subjective. Some people feel a musician is anyone who can sing and/or write a song. Others feel a musician is someone who has mastered an instrument or several. Others feel both would have to apply. Janet is a musician. She's a singer, she plays keys, she's written songs and created melodies. For me, a musician can be anyone from Mozart to Whitney Houston. If you are musically inclined in any way, be it a singer, a lyricist, a drummer, guitar player...whatever. Janet was the one who came up with the Indian chant melodies for "If". She developed the melody of the verses for "That's The Way Love Goes". She wrote "Black Cat" alone, and co-produced it with Jellybean Johnson without the aid of JJ/TL. Several songs from her albums she's written solely, with JJ/TL supplying the music only. This is why when JJ/TL produce music for other artists, it doesn't have that same impact that the music they create with Janet has. She puts her stamp on it by co-creating or creating it.

But, to turn this back to the subject at hand, yes, she's a pop music legend.

[Edited 8/8/11 15:42pm]

Sure that statement can be made about many singers, I never claimed that it was a phenomenon exclusive to Janet.

Not sure what you mean by this statement:

If Jam and Lewis supply the music then Janet did not solely write the song. Without the music you have poetry, not a song. Unless you are referring to instrumentation? You are obviously a much bigger fan of Janet than I am, would you care to tell me exactly how many songs she was given sole songwriting credit for? I'm guessing it is less than five.

That gif does not impress me. I've seen clips of Britney Spears "playing" the piano too.

I stand by my belief that Janet is a lyricist.

"Several songs from her albums she's written solely, with JJ/TL supplying the music only."

That's not true at all.

"Black Cat" is the only song where she's credited solely as the writer. She produced that song along with Jellybean Johnson. All of her other songs were either written and produced for her (Pre-Control work) OR she co-wrote along side Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, and they produced the work.

Some of you are really trying way too hard to make Janet out to be a musician when she's really just a performer. She can't create music without the help of another writer/producer and she will only be remembered for her work with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. Everything she did without them is irrelevant.

[Edited 8/8/11 16:02pm]

wonder505 said:

ThePopLover2 said:

Here what's getting me. You're making it sound like Just because Janet isnt a musician like Prince or the MOZART automatically disqualifies her as having a bigger input in her music tha Jam and Lewis. Jam and lewis already tried to use Janet's sound on a woman named Karyn white

http://www.youtube.com/wa...detailpage

Sounds exactly like "Alright" by Janet, but once again which song became more popular? the one done with JANET right?

[Edited 8/8/11 15:13pm]

Sounds to me like you can't accept the fact that people have different opinion that you. Yes in view of her success it was Jam and Lewis, the musicians who had a big impact on the creation of her songs. I'm sure they all helped each other, not saying that janet didn't have input, but JJ and TL was very beneficial to "Janet's sound". again, they have much to do with her success as janet. i think its very silly to downplay the role they had in it. sorry if you see it differently but that's just me.

[Edited 8/8/11 15:40pm]

It's not about me not accepting you oppinion, you are just trying so desperately to discredit Janet when it comes to her work. Then on top of that I gave you an example of someone having damn near the same song as Janet and you are still missing or avoiding my point

Secondly I wasnt downplaying anything, I agree that Jimmy and Terry should have EQUAL credit to Janet. BUT what it sounded like you and that other user were saying is that Jimmy and Terrry would've gained the same popularity now even if they didnt work with Janet.

And saying "Janet wouldn't have went far without Jimmy and Terry" knowing good and Darn well that it can go BOTH....BOTH ways.

[Edited 8/8/11 16:05pm]

[Edited 8/8/11 16:11pm]

ThePopLover2 said:

wonder505 said:

Sounds to me like you can't accept the fact that people have different opinion that you. Yes in view of her success it was Jam and Lewis, the musicians who had a big impact on the creation of her songs. I'm sure they all helped each other, not saying that janet didn't have input, but JJ and TL was very beneficial to "Janet's sound". again, they have much to do with her success as janet. i think its very silly to downplay the role they had in it. sorry if you see it differently but that's just me.

[Edited 8/8/11 15:40pm]

It's not about me not accepting you oppinion, you are just trying so desperately to discredit Janet when it comes to her work. Then on top of that I gave you an example of someone having damn near the same song as Janet and you are still missing or avoiding my point

[Edited 8/8/11 16:05pm]

Desperate? How am I desperate. I'm just stating an opinion and you fans who are so far up Janet's ass are hurt over it. Sorry, and what point did I miss? your example is lame. janet wrote one song in her entire catalog. she has never wrote and produced a song by herself and outside of jj and tl she couldn't or chose to not write or do anyting (Discipline). Like the other Orger pointed out, I'm just giving JJ and TL credit where credit it due. If you guys choose to downplay their role then fine with me , I just see thing differently.

[Edited 8/8/11 16:10pm]

wonder505 said:

ThePopLover2 said:

It's not about me not accepting you oppinion, you are just trying so desperately to discredit Janet when it comes to her work. Then on top of that I gave you an example of someone having damn near the same song as Janet and you are still missing or avoiding my point

[Edited 8/8/11 16:05pm]

Desperate? How am I desperate. I'm just stating an opinion and you fans who are so far up Janet's ass are hurt over it. Sorry, and what point did I miss? your example is lame. janet wrote one song in her entire catalog. she has never wrote and produced a song by herself and outside of jj and tl she couldn't or chose to not write or do anyting (Discipline). Like the other Orger pointed out, I'm just giving JJ and TL credit where credit it due. If you guys choose to downplay their role then fine with me , I just see thing differently.

[Edited 8/8/11 16:10pm]

I dont have my head up anyones ass, First off.

Secondly In WHAT way shape or form did I Downplay JJ and TL??

I simply said that THEY WOULD NOT BE POPULAR WITHOUT EACHOTHER. that goes for Terry and Jimmy too. You're basically making the woman sound like a straight up puppet.

ThePopLover2 said:

wonder505 said:

Desperate? How am I desperate. I'm just stating an opinion and you fans who are so far up Janet's ass are hurt over it. Sorry, and what point did I miss? your example is lame. janet wrote one song in her entire catalog. she has never wrote and produced a song by herself and outside of jj and tl she couldn't or chose to not write or do anyting (Discipline). Like the other Orger pointed out, I'm just giving JJ and TL credit where credit it due. If you guys choose to downplay their role then fine with me , I just see thing differently.

[Edited 8/8/11 16:10pm]

I dont have my head up anyones ass, First off.

Secondly In WHAT way shape or form did I Downplay JJ and TL??

I simply said that THEY WOULD NOT BE POPULAR WITHOUT EACHOTHER. that goes for Terry and Jimmy too. You're basically making the woman sound like a straight up puppet.

I agree that they helped each other gain such success, however IMO based on JJ and TL's talents and musicianship, coming fresh out of the Minneapolis scene which was on and popping at the time and eager to work on other projects outside of the Time, I believe they would have done well for themselves anyway, as songwriters and producers even without working with Janet. Maybe not as big but who knows, I think they would have done well. I just cant' say the same for Janet's career without JJ and TL's on her own, that doesn't take away the fact that as a team they were very successful.

[Edited 8/8/11 16:27pm]

wonder505 said:

SEANMAN said:

Hell, that statement can be made for a myriad of singers from the last two decades alone.

The term "musician" is subjective. Some people feel a musician is anyone who can sing and/or write a song. Others feel a musician is someone who has mastered an instrument or several. Others feel both would have to apply. Janet is a musician. She's a singer, she plays keys, she's written songs and created melodies. For me, a musician can be anyone from Mozart to Whitney Houston. If you are musically inclined in any way, be it a singer, a lyricist, a drummer, guitar player...whatever. Janet was the one who came up with the Indian chant melodies for "If". She developed the melody of the verses for "That's The Way Love Goes". She wrote "Black Cat" alone, and co-produced it with Jellybean Johnson without the aid of JJ/TL. Several songs from her albums she's written solely, with JJ/TL supplying the music only.

But, to turn this back to the subject at hand, yes, she's a pop music legend.

[Edited 8/8/11 15:39pm]

The only song I know she wrote alone in her entire catalgo was Black Cat. Which songs has she written soley? is this documented or hearsay? and you're right, its all subjective so why can't yall respect others who see "musician" their own way.

[Edited 8/8/11 15:43pm]

Well, if you notice, I did say what makes a musician "to me." Janet wrote the lyrics to "That's the Way Love Goes", with JJ/TL supplying the music. There's an article where Janet recalls the process for writing that track. She says Jimmy asked her to come up with a new song, and she went away for Christmas break and came up with the lyrics and a different melody than the song we all know. Jimmy initially rejected the melody, but liked the lyrics. She went away again and came back with the melody for that familiar melody for the verses.

She wrote "Whoops Now" from the janet. album. She wrote the promotional song for her 1998 Pepsi commercial, "Ask For More". She wrote the lyrics for "Together Again" in a hotel in Europe. She's wrote "Black Cat" by herself and co-produced it with Jellybean from The Time.

rialb said:

SEANMAN said:

Sure that statement can be made about many singers, I never claimed that it was a phenomenon exclusive to Janet.

Not sure what you mean by this statement:

Several songs from her albums she's written solely, with JJ/TL supplying the music only.

If Jam and Lewis supply the music then Janet did not solely write the song. Without the music you have poetry, not a song. Unless you are referring to instrumentation? You are obviously a much bigger fan of Janet than I am, would you care to tell me exactly how many songs she was given sole songwriting credit for? I'm guessing it is less than five.

That gif does not impress me. I've seen clips of Britney Spears "playing" the piano too.

I stand by my belief that Janet is a lyricist.

I didn't put it there to impress you. But, as I've said, people's perceptions of musicianship are subjective. Stand by your belief, hon. It is your belief and opinion. It's time to take this thread back on course. The topic at hand is whether or not she is a legend. The answer is yes.