TylerHippie said:

Emancipation89 said:

And why do you think people felt that much excitement just by looking at him and feeling his presence? It was part of the process of him building up the hype and the excitement, which is part of "entertaining" people. Everyone can learn to sing/dance/play instrument...perform...but I don't think you can teach how to truly connect with the crowd on that level..

I think his popularity had something to do with that. The guy was a star since 5 years old. Who

wouldn't go crazy over a legend like that.

I've seen footage of Prince accepting an award, and not being able to be heard on multiple occasions. Have you seen Prince footage of Prince at the 86' American Music Awards? He stole

Huey Lewis moment.

but how could he have earned the legend statement if he wasn't a great entertainer from the beginning ?

Emancipation89 said:

TylerHippie said:

I think his popularity had something to do with that. The guy was a star since 5 years old. Who

wouldn't go crazy over a legend like that.

I've seen footage of Prince accepting an award, and not being able to be heard on multiple occasions. Have you seen Prince footage of Prince at the 86' American Music Awards? He stole

Huey Lewis moment.

but how could he have earned the legend statement if he wasn't a great entertainer from the beginning ?

You can be a legend, and not be a great entertainer.

TylerHippie said:

Emancipation89 said:

but how could he have earned the legend statement if he wasn't a great entertainer from the beginning ?

You can be a legend, and not be a great entertainer.

So MJ's been only a legend in musician department? Last time I checked more people were giving him credits as entertainer than musician...I'm dizzy. I don't understand why you don't know this since you once were one of the biggest MJ fans?

Emancipation89 said:

TylerHippie said:

You can be a legend, and not be a great entertainer.

So MJ's been only a legend in musician department? Last time I checked more people were giving him credits as entertainer than musician...I'm dizzy. I don't understand why you don't know this since you once were one of the biggest MJ fans?

Exactly, I respected MJ for his music, not those over the top performances. I rather listen to

"The Lady Of My Life", than watch the Victory Tour.

And last time I checked, I wasn't a person who gave him credit of being a better entertainer than

musician.

mjscarousal said:

TylerHippie said:

I wouldn't say he entertained them by doing that, it was his presence that had people so crazy.

When you entertain someone, it last for a longer time.

Of COUSE you would say this... I mean this is a PRINCE FORUM BUT on ANY regular forum on a good day golf forum, beauty forum, rap forum, ring forum, weightloss forum, music forum paybills forum AS WELL AS REAL LIFE etc etc etc... Michael Jackson wins all the time because HE IS.

You have to realize something, being a musician and entertainer are TWO different things. Musicians can also entertain as well however Prince is an ACQUIRED taste. I LOVE Prince but I have NEVER been entertained by him like how I am by Michael. There really is NO comparision. Your going to get this thread locked or just stir up more drama. Cause you talkin crazy shit now.

Just say you prefer Prince over MJ but Michael is the greatest hands down. This goes BEYOND tours. Michael as a performer could stand ALONE on stage with a mic and be entertaining. Michael DONT EVEN have to use his magical amazing natural dancing talent to entertain a crowd but on the other hand folks here only arguement for Prince is the fact that his plays instruments and interacts with the crowd. I like to see Prince do half the stuff Michael does and be able to bring tears to my eyes without no guitar in his hand and just his mic. Not to mention Prince is NO WHERE near as talented as Michael on VOCALS ALONE. It is MUCH more to being a entertainer and it is also much more as to why Michael is the greatest entertainer that ever lived besides his impact on tours.

[Edited 8/2/11 8:42am]

...It's all subjective, there is no definitive right or wrong answer here for it to be a case of anybody being the best, 'hands down'. I think you're getting your own opinion confused with facts.

You can't make him agree with you. To him, MJ isn't the best, and that's fine. In all honesty it says loads about your own inability to handle a differing opinion in a discussion, that you resort to personal attacks the second someone has a view you don't agree with.

That aside, my personal take is that MJ was the best entertainer in the sense of flash and dazzle. Being a musician is something different, and I honestly think Prince is the greatest musician of all-time. Ultimately I value artistry and musicianship above anything else so to me Prince comes out on top. Absolutely, MJ was talented as hell, and put on a great 'show' - lots of pyrotechnics, effects, all that good stuff. Watching him perform had plenty of 'oh wow!' moments, but it didn't really stick with me or touch me on a deeper, heart- level, the way Prince's music and performances do (and have). My opinion. Agree or disagree, that's fine, but if you expect to be able to browbeat me into sharing your views at some point, you should know that it's ultimately a waste of time.

mjscarousal said:

TylerHippie said:

I wouldn't say he entertained them by doing that, it was his presence that had people so crazy.

When you entertain someone, it last for a longer time.

Of COUSE you would say this... I mean this is a PRINCE FORUM BUT on ANY regular forum on a good day golf forum, beauty forum, rap forum, ring forum, weightloss forum, music forum paybills forum AS WELL AS REAL LIFE etc etc etc... Michael Jackson wins all the time because HE IS.

You have to realize something, being a musician and entertainer are TWO different things. Musicians can also entertain as well however Prince is an ACQUIRED taste. I LOVE Prince but I have NEVER been entertained by him like how I am by Michael. There really is NO comparision. Your going to get this thread locked or just stir up more drama. Cause you talkin crazy shit now.

Just say you prefer Prince over MJ but Michael is the greatest hands down. This goes BEYOND tours. Michael as a performer could stand ALONE on stage with a mic and be entertaining. Michael DONT EVEN have to use his magical amazing natural dancing talent to entertain a crowd but on the other hand folks here only arguement for Prince is the fact that his plays instruments and interacts with the crowd. I like to see Prince do half the stuff Michael does and be able to bring tears to my eyes without no guitar in his hand and just his mic. Not to mention Prince is NO WHERE near as talented as Michael on VOCALS ALONE. It is MUCH more to being a entertainer and it is also much more as to why Michael is the greatest entertainer that ever lived besides his impact on tours.

[Edited 8/2/11 8:42am]

1. People love MJ because he was a child star singing about "ABC's" with his bigger bros. So

who wouldn't have a passion for a guy like that? Prince came on the scene in high-heels and

tights, so who has the advantage?

2. I have the right to say Prince is better because I listened to all their work, and musicially and

entertainer wise, Prince is better to me. I don't judge someone off of a couple shows or songs.

3. I doubt Prince can make you cry without a guitar in his hand, that's the difference between a true

musician and a performer. If I know Prince can play the sexiest guitar solo in the world, or

play some sick drum beats or some moving piano, why would I want him to dance the whole

show?

[Edited 8/2/11 9:21am]

TylerHippie said:

Emancipation89 said:

So MJ's been only a legend in musician department? Last time I checked more people were giving him credits as entertainer than musician...I'm dizzy. I don't understand why you don't know this since you once were one of the biggest MJ fans?

Exactly, I respected MJ for his music, not those over the top performances. I rather listen to

"The Lady Of My Life", than watch the Victory Tour.

And last time I checked, I wasn't a person who gave him credit of being a better entertainer than

musician.

Oh ok then. it was fun reading ur thoughts on MJ

Michael Joseph Jackson.

TylerHippie said:

mjscarousal said:

Of COUSE you would say this... I mean this is a PRINCE FORUM BUT on ANY regular forum on a good day golf forum, beauty forum, rap forum, ring forum, weightloss forum, music forum paybills forum AS WELL AS REAL LIFE etc etc etc... Michael Jackson wins all the time because HE IS.

You have to realize something, being a musician and entertainer are TWO different things. Musicians can also entertain as well however Prince is an ACQUIRED taste. I LOVE Prince but I have NEVER been entertained by him like how I am by Michael. There really is NO comparision. Your going to get this thread locked or just stir up more drama. Cause you talkin crazy shit now.

Just say you prefer Prince over MJ but Michael is the greatest hands down. This goes BEYOND tours. Michael as a performer could stand ALONE on stage with a mic and be entertaining. Michael DONT EVEN have to use his magical amazing natural dancing talent to entertain a crowd but on the other hand folks here only arguement for Prince is the fact that his plays instruments and interacts with the crowd. I like to see Prince do half the stuff Michael does and be able to bring tears to my eyes without no guitar in his hand and just his mic. Not to mention Prince is NO WHERE near as talented as Michael on VOCALS ALONE. It is MUCH more to being a entertainer and it is also much more as to why Michael is the greatest entertainer that ever lived besides his impact on tours.

[Edited 8/2/11 8:42am]

1. People love MJ because he was a child star singing about "ABC's" with his bigger bros. So

who wouldn't have a passion for a guy like that? Prince came on the scene in high-heels and

tights, so who has the advantage?

2. I have the right to say Prince is better because I listened to all their work, and musicially and

entertainer wise, Prince is better to me. I don't judge someone off of a couple shows or songs.

3. I doubt Prince can make you cry without a guitar in his hand, that's the difference between a true

musician and a performer. If I know Prince can play the sexiest guitar solo in the world, or

play some sick drum beats or some moving piano, why would I want him to dance the whole

show?

[Edited 8/2/11 9:21am]

Thats YOUR opinion and you are basically saying the same thing as I am so what exactly IS your point?

In your preference for Prince you seem for some reason feel the need to downplay Michaels... talent Like seriously thats bullshit. You like Prince better okay. But Prince does not entertain on no Michael Jackson, James Brown, Sammy scale. I respect and appreciate Prince musicianship but they are TWO completely different things. You seem to get more out of the musicianship which is great I love that as well but your question ask who is the GREATEST ENTERTAINER and I am sorry Prince does not even come to mine and I love Stevie Wonder and I would never even call him such and I find him to be a more better musian/vocalist than Prince!. Now if you was to ask who was the GREATEST MUSICAL GENIUS COMPARED to HIS PEERS... than yea Prince is up there but they are two completely different things but if you find yourself to be MORE entertained with Prince musicianship than.. okay.

I personally dont.

I find James Brown, MJ, Sammy, Nicholas Brothers to be MUCH MORE entertaining.

If I just want to listen and appreciate Princes artistic and musical talent I can just simply pop in his C.D. but if I want to be entertained I am going to watch Michael... all in L.O.V.E..

mjscarousal said:

Just say you prefer Prince over MJ but Michael is the greatest hands down. This goes BEYOND tours. Michael as a performer could stand ALONE on stage with a mic and be entertaining. Michael DONT EVEN have to use his magical amazing natural dancing talent to entertain a crowd but on the other hand folks here only arguement for Prince is the fact that his plays instruments and interacts with the crowd. I like to see Prince do half the stuff Michael does and be able to bring tears to my eyes without no guitar in his hand and just his mic. Not to mention Prince is NO WHERE near as talented as Michael on VOCALS ALONE. It is MUCH more to being a entertainer and it is also much more as to why Michael is the greatest entertainer that ever lived besides his impact on tours.

Oh dear. You are trying to have a meaningful debate on a Prince site about how talented MJ is over Prince and your argument is that MJ can just stand there and be more entertaining???

Yep. That'll convince everyone of your sanity.

mjscarousal said:

TylerHippie said:

1. People love MJ because he was a child star singing about "ABC's" with his bigger bros. So

who wouldn't have a passion for a guy like that? Prince came on the scene in high-heels and

tights, so who has the advantage?

2. I have the right to say Prince is better because I listened to all their work, and musicially and

entertainer wise, Prince is better to me. I don't judge someone off of a couple shows or songs.

3. I doubt Prince can make you cry without a guitar in his hand, that's the difference between a true

musician and a performer. If I know Prince can play the sexiest guitar solo in the world, or

play some sick drum beats or some moving piano, why would I want him to dance the whole

show?

[Edited 8/2/11 9:21am]

Thats YOUR opinion and you are basically saying the same thing as I am so what exactly IS your point?

In your preference for Prince you seem for some reason feel the need to downplay Michaels... talent Like seriously thats bullshit. You like Prince better okay. But Prince does not entertain on no Michael Jackson, James Brown, Sammy scale. I respect and appreciate Prince musicianship but they are TWO completely different things. You seem to get more out of the musicianship which is great I love that as well but your question ask who is the GREATEST ENTERTAINER and I am sorry Prince does not even come to mine and I love Stevie Wonder and I would never even call him such and I find him to be a more better musian/vocalist than Prince!. Now if you was to ask who was the GREATEST MUSICAL GENIUS COMPARED to HIS PEERS... than yea Prince is up there but they are two completely different things but if you find yourself to be MORE entertained with Prince musicianship than.. okay.

I personally dont.

I find James Brown, MJ, Sammy, Nicholas Brothers to be MUCH MORE entertaining.

If I just want to listen and appreciate Princes artistic and musical talent I can just simply pop in his C.D. but if I want to be entertained I am going to watch Michael... all in L.O.V.E..

I have seen both MJ and Prince live many times. Both were great. But in my eyes Prince won it. You are confusing most popular with best.

Nuff said.

He blew the roof off each venue he performed in even before there were light shows and stage designs. The mere power of his singing and dancing and the unmatched raw energy of his bands easily give him this title. There is a reason why he's called The Hardest Working Man in Showbusiness.

SquirrelMeat said:

mjscarousal said:

Just say you prefer Prince over MJ but Michael is the greatest hands down. This goes BEYOND tours. Michael as a performer could stand ALONE on stage with a mic and be entertaining. Michael DONT EVEN have to use his magical amazing natural dancing talent to entertain a crowd but on the other hand folks here only arguement for Prince is the fact that his plays instruments and interacts with the crowd. I like to see Prince do half the stuff Michael does and be able to bring tears to my eyes without no guitar in his hand and just his mic. Not to mention Prince is NO WHERE near as talented as Michael on VOCALS ALONE. It is MUCH more to being a entertainer and it is also much more as to why Michael is the greatest entertainer that ever lived besides his impact on tours.

Oh dear. You are trying to have a meaningful debate on a Prince site about how talented MJ is over Prince and your argument is that MJ can just stand there and be more entertaining???

Yep. That'll convince everyone of your sanity.

And this coming from someone who undermines Whitney talent and feels she is nothing more than a crack whore

Nope.

Sit down.

If anything it reveals the looney Prince fans.. Ill admit MJ fans are crazy as hell but yall no better LOL. And that wasnt my ONLY arguement... yall so dramatic

mjscarousal said:

TylerHippie said:

1. People love MJ because he was a child star singing about "ABC's" with his bigger bros. So

who wouldn't have a passion for a guy like that? Prince came on the scene in high-heels and

tights, so who has the advantage?

2. I have the right to say Prince is better because I listened to all their work, and musicially and

entertainer wise, Prince is better to me. I don't judge someone off of a couple shows or songs.

3. I doubt Prince can make you cry without a guitar in his hand, that's the difference between a true

musician and a performer. If I know Prince can play the sexiest guitar solo in the world, or

play some sick drum beats or some moving piano, why would I want him to dance the whole

show?

[Edited 8/2/11 9:21am]

Thats YOUR opinion and you are basically saying the same thing as I am so what exactly IS your point?

In your preference for Prince you seem for some reason feel the need to downplay Michaels... talent Like seriously thats bullshit. You like Prince better okay. But Prince does not entertain on no Michael Jackson, James Brown, Sammy scale. I respect and appreciate Prince musicianship but they are TWO completely different things. You seem to get more out of the musicianship which is great I love that as well but your question ask who is the GREATEST ENTERTAINER and I am sorry Prince does not even come to mine and I love Stevie Wonder and I would never even call him such and I find him to be a more better musian/vocalist than Prince!. Now if you was to ask who was the GREATEST MUSICAL GENIUS COMPARED to HIS PEERS... than yea Prince is up there but they are two completely different things but if you find yourself to be MORE entertained with Prince musicianship than.. okay.

I personally dont.

I find James Brown, MJ, Sammy, Nicholas Brothers to be MUCH MORE entertaining.

If I just want to listen and appreciate Princes artistic and musical talent I can just simply pop in his C.D. but if I want to be entertained I am going to watch Michael... all in L.O.V.E..

1. I know what I'm saying. I'm saying Prince entertain people with his musicianship, not dances.

2. Uh, if you read my post above, I told someone I respect MJ as a musician, not a entertainer.

So how am I downplaying his talents? I think he's a better musician than entertainer, and you

think Prince is a better musician than entertainer. That's our opinions.

SquirrelMeat said:

mjscarousal said:

Thats YOUR opinion and you are basically saying the same thing as I am so what exactly IS your point?

In your preference for Prince you seem for some reason feel the need to downplay Michaels... talent Like seriously thats bullshit. You like Prince better okay. But Prince does not entertain on no Michael Jackson, James Brown, Sammy scale. I respect and appreciate Prince musicianship but they are TWO completely different things. You seem to get more out of the musicianship which is great I love that as well but your question ask who is the GREATEST ENTERTAINER and I am sorry Prince does not even come to mine and I love Stevie Wonder and I would never even call him such and I find him to be a more better musian/vocalist than Prince!. Now if you was to ask who was the GREATEST MUSICAL GENIUS COMPARED to HIS PEERS... than yea Prince is up there but they are two completely different things but if you find yourself to be MORE entertained with Prince musicianship than.. okay.

I personally dont.

I find James Brown, MJ, Sammy, Nicholas Brothers to be MUCH MORE entertaining.

If I just want to listen and appreciate Princes artistic and musical talent I can just simply pop in his C.D. but if I want to be entertained I am going to watch Michael... all in L.O.V.E..

I have seen both MJ and Prince live many times. Both were great. But in my eyes Prince won it. You are confusing most popular with best.

Are you kidding me?

This has NOTHING to do with popularity.

This is SOLELY based on who puts on a show and is the greatest at that. The thread called for the GREATEST. I LOVE Prince to bits... but in this catagory Michael wins this and if you feel or think otherwise so be it. Being an entertainer and musician are two different things. I dunno why this thread was even created. This is a PRINCE forum of course Prince fans are going to say Prince LOL but not everyone feels that way or has to. I just cant get over how some are forgetting great entertainers such as James Brown and the Nicholasbrothers and have the nerve to rank Prince above them.. but okay:lol:

mjscarousal said:

SquirrelMeat said:

Oh dear. You are trying to have a meaningful debate on a Prince site about how talented MJ is over Prince and your argument is that MJ can just stand there and be more entertaining???

Yep. That'll convince everyone of your sanity.

And this coming from someone who undermines Whitney talent and feels she is nothing more than a crack whore

Nope.

Sit down.

If anything it reveals the looney Prince fans.. Ill admit MJ fans are crazy as hell but yall no better LOL. And that wasnt my ONLY arguement... yall so dramatic

She done the undermining herself when she sucked the pipe

MJ is great, but you seem to be trying to tell people they are wrong for not picking MJ. I have seen many live acts I thought were better than MJ. Sure he put on a great show, but it was a show. And in my world, a gig gives the best entertainment.

Prince hands down. Dude would dance, interact with the crowd, organize an entire band on stage in synch, play the piano...then run across the stage and play the fuck out of a guitar, then have fun with the drums, then climb a random apparatus on stage etc. An incredible performer!

Prince>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anyone else I've ever seen.

mjscarousal said:

SquirrelMeat said:

I have seen both MJ and Prince live many times. Both were great. But in my eyes Prince won it. You are confusing most popular with best.

Are you kidding me?

This has NOTHING to do with popularity.

This is SOLELY based on who puts on a show and is the greatest at that. The thread called for the GREATEST. I LOVE Prince to bits... but in this catagory Michael wins this and if you feel or think otherwise so be it. Being an entertainer and musician are two different things. I dunno why this thread was even created. This is a PRINCE forum of course Prince fans are going to say Prince LOL but not everyone feels that way or has to. I just cant get over how some are forgetting great entertainers such as James Brown and the Nicholasbrothers and have the nerve to rank Prince above them.. but okay:lol:

There isn't a choice between Prince or MJ...It can be any artist.

EVERYONE

Will say Michael Jackson.. he was amazing.

But in mhy opinion overrated as the greatest

To me James Brown is the greatest, the man was funky and could fo 100 mph the entire show. And Prince is not to far behind but i think some people even beat Prince in that category but he is defintly top 5 for me

M.J. Could sing & dance exceptionally, but when i saw Prince he sang woderfully played multiple instruments, danced in high heels & did 5 encores. That to me was the best show i have ever attented and it will be hard to top

Pr1nceQuik said:

Prince hands down. Dude would dance, interact with the crowd, organize an entire band on stage in synch, play the piano...then run across the stage and play the fuck out of a guitar, then have fun with the drums, then climb a random apparatus on stage etc. An incredible performer!

Prince>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anyone else I've ever seen.

Agree! This why I say Prince is better. He had more to rely on than MJ.

Gunsnhalen said:

M.J. Could sing & dance exceptionally, but when i saw Prince he sang woderfully played multiple instruments, danced in high heels & did 5 encores. That to me was the best show i have ever attented and it will be hard to top

Exactly.

An MJ show was great, but it never felt spontaneous. You knew if was all played out, and that takes away a lot of energy. And then he would stand there, minutes on end like some plastic doll, shirt flapping in the wind making himself look like an arrogant tosser.

With Prince, you, and often him, didn't know what was coming next, and that is electric.

SquirrelMeat said:

mjscarousal said:

And this coming from someone who undermines Whitney talent and feels she is nothing more than a crack whore

Nope.

Sit down.

If anything it reveals the looney Prince fans.. Ill admit MJ fans are crazy as hell but yall no better LOL. And that wasnt my ONLY arguement... yall so dramatic

She done the undermining herself when she sucked the pipe

MJ is great, but you seem to be trying to tell people they are wrong for not picking MJ. I have seen many live acts I thought were better than MJ. Sure he put on a great show, but it was a show. And in my world, a gig gives the best entertainment.

No no no.. people seem to use the arguement that Michael used gimmicks, flashy stage props, and big productions. While ALL those things might be true, there is NO QUESTION Michael was a very talented performer. Michael could have done gigs or smaller venues and STILL have the SAME effect. Michael is/was a much BIGGER star than Prince so just because he did big stadiums undermines his greatest title over Prince?

LOL hahahahahaha

And OF COURSE their are alot of great dancers JUST like their are alot of great musicians that I would rank higher than Prince.

If YOU prefer Prince than okay I am not trying to change your opinion but I will not sit here and allow some Prince stans to act like Michael is given that titles because of his popularity OR big productions etc as if he had more of an advantage or some bullshit. Michael was a great ass entertainer with or without all that stuff.

Timmy84 said:

YES!!!!! I love that 50's and 60's James Brown. He could take out Prince and MJ during that time.

Timmy84 said:

One bad brotha there

In the end, it's all a matter of preference. There's no objectivity in anyone's statements here. Just because one is a more popular opinion doesn't make it fact. Just because one is a less popular opinion doesn't make it fact either.

For me, personally, I don't care about how many instruments and encores you play or do or even if you have smoke, mirrors, and 1 million dancers, if you sound like shit when you sing then just forget it. Imo, there's nothing worse than someone who is hurting my ears when they can't stay on key or they lack emotion when they sing. That, more than anything, drives me nuts and have ruined many performances for me.

Though, I must say, the reason why MJ started to be hailed as being one of the greatest performers of all time, was due to the added level of drama he added to his performances that made them standout so much. That's not to take away from anyone else in the least, but I was under that impression. I mean...it doesn't make anyone else's less entertaining, but it did put his on a different level.

I prefer MJ for everything, but Prince is sexy and talented as hell onstage and though I always knew it, I was so amazed by how much at a current Prince jam. Clips from the Lovesexy tour and Nude looked amazing!

Qusetions like this are too subjective.

People like different things: A person might name his/her favorite pop artist. Someone else might name an opera singer. A jazz musician. A dancer. A broadway star.

It depends on what people are entertained by...

chocolate1 said:

Qusetions like this are too subjective.

People like different things: A person might name his/her favorite pop artist. Someone else might name an opera singer. A jazz musician. A dancer. A broadway star.

It depends on what people are entertained by...

Mmhmm exactly.

TylerHippie said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

Well, if you don't mind me interrupting, I have seen them, but nothing beats the excitement and pure awesomeness of the Destiny/Triumph/Victory/Bad/Dangerous tours.

[Edited 8/2/11 7:52am]

Madonna had better tours than that...

I would rather be raped by a tank in front of the Dalai Lama than ever have it be said that Madonna is a better entertainer than Michael Jackson...

Now normally I don't like people comparing artists....BUT PUUUUUUURRRRRLLLLEEEEAAASSSSEEEE!!

Particularly when MJ was called gimicky. Madonna's career has been measured by gimmicks...Sex book, kissing Britney, Masturbating on stage etc etc. Now I think Madonna is talented, but if ya gonna throw rocks at glass houses

I think Freddie Mercury is an amazing entertainer...just not the best.

Now for me Prince and MJ are just great great entertainers. They both know how to work a crowd...Prince with his teasing of songs chords etc...MJ with his standing still for 5 minutes letting the crowd go crazy and the cherry picker. I honestly can't say one is better than the other. They are just different in good ways.