EmancipationLover said:

Maybe we need to make clear then what we think what an "icon" is (in popular music) - we might have different views here. My opinion is that an iconic status in pop is not only achieved by musical delivery, but that it is also based on a certain image that had an impact on popular culture.

It is iconic how Prince crawled on the floor naked in the "When doves cry" video. MJs dance moves in the "Thriller" video are iconic. Madonna's "Like a prayer" video has some iconic character. The Sex Pistols were icons for their punk image. Abba were icons for their super-cheesy image. Tina Turner is an icon with her spiky hair and her wild style in the 80s. James Brown is an icon with his dance moves and so on and so on. These pop icons did not only deliver great music, they also defined fashion at some stage and made people look up to them.

Having this in mind I can't see anything iconic about Whitney. Yes, she is (rightfully) praised for her great vocal capabilities, but that is a musical skill, not an iconic aspect of her personality. Again, Prince is not an icon for his great guitar solos, but for his style in "Purple Rain" etc. Whitney sitting on a chair singing "I will always love you", combined with a few scenes from "The Bodyguard", hardly leaves any iconic impression imo. It is simply a woman singing a good, but rather polished version of a good song.

I think that you are coming from a pop/funk musician type world that doesn't allow for the interpretative skill of a singer. You dont give credit for someone who can take a schmaltzy song and stand flat footed sing and make the hairs on someone arms go up or make someone feel. Someone doesn't get to Whitney's height of fame for so long accomplishing what she has done without having made a lasting impact on millions of lives. It just doens't happen.

Please, putting out artistic videos is not the bar set at which a singer can be determined to be an Icon. That is a silly yardstick.Nobody looks to Aretha for groundbreaking videos or Donna Summer or Anita Baker or Chaka.

She refers to herself as an interpreter of music. I alike it to a skilled actor who doesn't write the script or the book but can make the character come alive by imbueing their skill, their vision into the words. That is what she does and she has sone a great job of it.

She doesn't get to get penalize because she is not a dancer or plays an instrument and quite frankly, Barbra streisand is indeed a huge legend and Icon.

What Whitney did with her style of singing which was unique when she came in was to open the door and usher in a new era. Ever since a debut, labels have been looking for the next Whitney, they have tried grooming their artist to sing like her, to be like her to capture what she has that connected with people. Whatever it is that she has can't be captured in a bottle and this is what makes her unique and iconic.

Again not trying to change opinions here because you like what you like. However, realize that this is not a fishbowl and there are millions, literally millions of people out there who don't agree and feel that she is a legend and an icon whose name is worthy to be right up next to those 3.

Just as there are millions of people who aren't turn on by Prince's music or feel that he is impactful. Somewill say he went off the deep end with the 'unpronouceable sign' and behind irrelevant. I think he's found other ways to get his music out to his fans and make a living.

BTW, I think the Preacher's Wife and MLIYL are probably Whitney's most personal cds and also left center for what she was known to put out to the masses.

vainandy said:

EmancipationLover said:

Yeah, but this might also be the exact reason why people refuse to accept her as a member of the super league of iconic pop legends.

Exactly!!!!! She's better mentioned in the same sentence with folks like Barbara Streisand, Neil Diamond, Air Supply, or Debbie Boone.

They're trying to put Shitney in a league with "cool" entertainers and she's the furthest thing from cool. Of course people aren't going to accept her in that league. That would be like someone trying put Barbara Streisand in a league with AC/DC or Judas Priest. Those head bangers would kick your ass if you put her name in their's.

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[Edited 8/4/11 13:58pm]

Hey, don't take my F.U.N.K. pass away from me me just 'cause I started liking ole Babs when I was four years old...and still do!

Someone sent this to me months ago, Whitney's documentary done during her my love is your love tour in Europe. She or the label never released it

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/...;<param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/...?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

Here is 'it's not right but it's okay' performance from Manneheim, Germany for the ones who are clueless about her My love is your love sound which was edgy for her and for the ones who still think that she sings ac/pop fully. it's also part of that documentary and you get to see and hear her while she is putting on make up. That's a beast! and dancing and sounding great.

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/...;<param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/...?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

purplethunder3121 said:

vainandy said:

Exactly!!!!! She's better mentioned in the same sentence with folks like Barbara Streisand, Neil Diamond, Air Supply, or Debbie Boone.

They're trying to put Shitney in a league with "cool" entertainers and she's the furthest thing from cool. Of course people aren't going to accept her in that league. That would be like someone trying put Barbara Streisand in a league with AC/DC or Judas Priest. Those head bangers would kick your ass if you put her name in their's.

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.

[Edited 8/4/11 13:58pm]

Hey, don't take my F.U.N.K. pass away from me me just 'cause I started liking ole Babs when I was four years old...and still do!

Hey, I have no problem with Babs. Hell, I like The Carpenters my damn self.

But neither Babs, nor The Carpenters were marketed to R&B radio so they couldn't do any damage to it. Shitney however, was all over R&B radio and did tons of damage that will never be undone. It's because of her tired ass and her influence, that R&B radio of the late 1980s eventually became a snoozefest of adult contemporary artists to the point that shit hop was able to come in and fill the rebellion void that was left after Shitney killed funk. Hell, if she wanted to be a damn adult contemporary singer, then they should have marketed her ass to adult contemporary stations like they did Babs and folks like that. Playing her ass on R&B radio which was dominated by funk at the time, just because she's black was just fucking rediculous. Hell, if you really think about it, it was kinda racist because if somebody had came to white hard rock stations wanting them to play Babs, they would have thrown them out of the station because it didn't fit the format. Funk dominated radio should have been given the same respect.

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[Edited 8/4/11 15:49pm]

Entertainer said:

Someone sent this to me months ago, Whitney's documentary done during her my love is your love tour in Europe. She or the label never released it

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/...;<param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/...?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

Here is 'it's not right but it's okay' performance from Manneheim, Germany for the ones who are clueless about her My love is your love sound which was edgy for her and for the ones who still think that she sings ac/pop fully. it's also part of that documentary and you get to see and hear her while she is putting on make up. That's a beast! and dancing and sounding great.

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/...;<param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/...?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

Uh this site don't except embed YouTube videos. Lemme help you out...

For the ones trying to stir shit up re whitney and MJ,

This is her singing missing you and dedicating it to MJ and to her late make up artist (roxanna floyd) who passed away in late 2010

http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related

This is Whitney singing 'A song for you' in Glasgow 2010 changing the lyrics up and singing about her relationship with MJ. The speech that she gives in themiddle of the song was edited out.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...CFBFD1AC7E

This is Whitney in Russia, Dec 2009 performing a bit of 'man in the mirror' and then giving a speech about MJ, you have to watch the whole thing to hear her tribute him and call him the the greatest entertainer if not then one of. No need to stir stan wars, this is her in her own words on tour:

http://www.youtube.com/wa...sbVUCoku3E

Whitney ins Seoul, Korea singing a medley of MJ songs and singing that she loves him and misses her 'dear friend'

http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related

Whitney again dedicating 'never can say goodbye ' to MJ in australia 2010

http://www.youtube.com/wa...JdLFNK3qZQ

Don't take haters word that she didn't care for MJ, take her own words said over, and over, and over and not in front of cameras or the media for self-attention.

Timmy84 said:

Entertainer said:

Someone sent this to me months ago, Whitney's documentary done during her my love is your love tour in Europe. She or the label never released it

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/...;<param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/...?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

Here is 'it's not right but it's okay' performance from Manneheim, Germany for the ones who are clueless about her My love is your love sound which was edgy for her and for the ones who still think that she sings ac/pop fully. it's also part of that documentary and you get to see and hear her while she is putting on make up. That's a beast! and dancing and sounding great.

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/...;<param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/...?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

Uh this site don't except embed YouTube videos. Lemme help you out...

Thanks for posting the full videos, thanks much. Arista is crazy for not releasing this documentary. She was on fire in Europe on this tour.

Oops I didn't know that, how did you post the vids so i know for next time?

[Edited 8/4/11 15:17pm]

Entertainer said:

I think that you are coming from a pop/funk musician type world that doesn't allow for the interpretative skill of a singer. You dont give credit for someone who can take a schmaltzy song and stand flat footed sing and make the hairs on someone arms go up or make someone feel.

Oh, I do give credit for this. Those people are great singers! That doesn't make them icons with a cultural impact.

Someone doesn't get to Whitney's height of fame for so long accomplishing what she has done without having made a lasting impact on millions of lives. It just doens't happen.

Agreed - that's why I never said that she hasn't made a lasting impact on many people. The question I would like to ask is if that impact was a cultural one - like people trying to look like her, dress like her, accepting her as a role model etc. - or if it was simply many people enjoying her music.

Please, putting out artistic videos is not the bar set at which a singer can be determined to be an Icon. That is a silly yardstick.Nobody looks to Aretha for groundbreaking videos or Donna Summer or Anita Baker or Chaka.

Agreed - that's why I never said this. Viedos were - in the golden age of MTV - one way to get across a certain image, feeling or "flavour" associated with an artist. There were other ways before. The Beatles and the Stones were iconic without videos, and I've alredy listed people such as James Brown and The Sex Pistols who became huge prior to the age of MTV.

She refers to herself as an interpreter of music. I alike it to a skilled actor who doesn't write the script or the book but can make the character come alive by imbueing their skill, their vision into the words.

The problem is that music and film are two totally different disciplines, so I don't see the point.

She doesn't get to get penalize because she is not a dancer or plays an instrument and quite frankly, Barbra streisand is indeed a huge legend and Icon.

I don't mind her not playing an instrument. That is not a prerequisite for iconic status. Kurt Cobain didn't become an icon because he could play the guitar.

What Whitney did with her style of singing which was unique when she came in was to open the door and usher in a new era. Ever since a debut, labels have been looking for the next Whitney, they have tried grooming their artist to sing like her, to be like her to capture what she has that connected with people. Whatever it is that she has can't be captured in a bottle and this is what makes her unique and iconic.

They have looked for the next Whitney because they expected to sell shit loads of records with her - not because they were fascinated by the original's cultural impact.

Again not trying to change opinions here because you like what you like. However, realize that this is not a fishbowl and there are millions, literally millions of people out there who don't agree and feel that she is a legend and an icon whose name is worthy to be right up next to those 3.

That's exactly the key question which is still unanswered imo. Is she regularly mentioned along the "big 3" or not? If yes, then the question of the OP is pointless because it is based on a wrong assumption. If not, then we should look for reasons. My personal impression is that she is not regularly mentioned as being in the same league, and I think I've made clear what I believe to be the reason(s). Please remember: we're not debating if Whitney fans think that she belongs into this league (no surprise they would), we're debating if the average pop listener tends to think she does.

Just as there are millions of people who aren't turn on by Prince's music or feel that he is impactful. Somewill say he went off the deep end with the 'unpronouceable sign' and behind irrelevant. I think he's found other ways to get his music out to his fans and make a living.

This is not the point. The point is that it's pretty clear why Prince achieved iconic status in the 1980s and if Whitney has achieved something similar - and if not, why not.

BTW, I think the Preacher's Wife and MLIYL are probably Whitney's most personal cds and also left center for what she was known to put out to the masses.

I'm honest with you: I don't know the complete MLIYL album, just the singles. But if MLIYL (the song) is some of the most adventurous stuff Whitney has ever done, then that's really telling something...

Entertainer said:

For the ones trying to stir shit up re whitney and MJ,

This is her singing missing you and dedicating it to MJ and to her late make up artist (roxanna floyd) who passed away in late 2010

http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related

This is Whitney singing 'A song for you' in Glasgow 2010 changing the lyrics up and singing about her relationship with MJ. The speech that she gives in themiddle of the song was edited out.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...CFBFD1AC7E

This is Whitney in Russia, Dec 2009 performing a bit of 'man in the mirror' and then giving a speech about MJ, you have to watch the whole thing to hear her tribute him and call him the the greatest entertainer if not then one of. No need to stir stan wars, this is her in her own words on tour:

http://www.youtube.com/wa...sbVUCoku3E

Whitney ins Seoul, Korea singing a medley of MJ songs and singing that she loves him and misses her 'dear friend'

http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related

Whitney again dedicating 'never can say goodbye ' to MJ in australia 2010

http://www.youtube.com/wa...JdLFNK3qZQ

Don't take haters word that she didn't care for MJ, take her own words said over, and over, and over and not in front of cameras or the media for self-attention.

Why does she need the Michael Jackson fans' approval to be included in the big three? Do you know how many Michael Jackson and Prince fans that can't stand each other and neither group of those fans look for the other's approval to be in the big three. But both Michael and Prince are in the big three whether the other group likes it or not. That's just the way it is. If she was worthy, she'd be in that big three whether they liked it or not, but she isn't.

Even if she did give Michael Jackson a tribute, that means nothing. Hell, that seems to be the "fashionable" thing to do these days after he has passed away and even if she did those tributes while he was alive, hell, this is the same woman that said Bobby Brown is the "Kang of R&B". Folks don't really and truly know who she thinks is great (nor do they care) because you can't believe a word she says because she's a suck-up. She was apparently sucking up to her husband when she made that statement, who's to say she's not sucking up to the Michael Jackson fans trying to make them her fans. She's certainly greedy enough because from day one she sucked up to the pop world, the R&B world, and even the adult contemporary world. She's all over the road sucking up with no real style or taste of her own. Just a puppet that moves to the strings pulled by her mentor, old Silver Balls.

EmancipationLover said:

I'm honest with you: I don't know the complete MLIYL album, just the singles. But if MLIYL (the song) is some of the most adventurous stuff Whitney has ever done, then that's really telling something...

Oh, I remember her in the 1990s thinking she was "becoming more R&B" but just look at the R&B of the 1990s compared to the 1980s. It was already ruined from the damage she did to it in the late 1980s so when she "became more R&B" in the 1990s, the standards were much lower than before. If she had tried to become more R&B in the 1980s and put her up against folks like Cameo, Roger and Zapp, Lakeside, etc., folks with some real strong rhythm in their bones, she would have fallen flat on her face. In the 1990s when she "became R&B", most R&B at that time was just as bland as she was.

Also, in the 1990s, a lot, if not most, R&B was all over pop radio so it was crossover and you know little miss barbie doll would sell her soul to be all over pop radio. It wasn't like it was in the 1980s when most R&B was on R&B stations only. If she thought it would be on R&B radio only, she'd turn her nose up. She's too goodie goodie for that.

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[Edited 8/4/11 16:08pm]

Entertainer said:

Timmy84 said:

Uh this site don't except embed YouTube videos. Lemme help you out...

Thanks for posting the full videos, thanks much. Arista is crazy for not releasing this documentary. She was on fire in Europe on this tour.

Oops I didn't know that, how did you post the vids so i know for next time?

[Edited 8/4/11 15:17pm]

Use the [youtube:X][/youtube:X] tags. And copy the link but make sure you copy and paste it so it's not posted like a link.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...5kBWwXTZo4

Whitney sining my love is your love with wyclef jean on letterman

http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related

Whitney singing my love is your love on tour in manneheim with daughter bobbi kris as part of that unreleased documentary

Whitney sining Heartbreak Hotel on tour in Poland interpolating the Jackson's Heartbreak hotel at the end

http://www.youtube.com/wa...eG0iIaGB98

Whitney singing Heartbreak Hotel with Faith Evans and Kelly Price on Rosie

http://www.youtube.com/wa...O5Jr18DCII

Whitney performing 'it's not right but it's okay' at diva's live

http://www.youtube.com/wa...WcZCCTVl60

Whitney performing 'it's not right but it's okay' Brit Awards

http://www.youtube.com/wa...WcZCCTVl60

whitney singing i learned from the best on oprah

http://www.youtube.com/wa...75F8242F83

ILFTB on tour in manneheim germany

http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related

ilftb acapella

Whitney with Lauryn Hill ' I was made to love him ' on the stevie wonder cover- i'd say her most hip hop inspired song to date- very funky

http://www.youtube.com/wa...59rPzp7mM0

Whitney singing 'Oh Yes' produced byMissy Elliott with background vocals- prob one of her most sexiest sogs

http://www.youtube.com/wa...n7ve9ipgHg

Get it back and I bow out produced both by Rodney Jerkins- these 2 songs were definitely harder beats , instrumentation and production that she was used to and she road the beats well with her vocals , the beats never surpass her vocals.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related

whitney singing 'until you come back to me' producded by babyface- prob her most classic/old school song on the c has a sort of big band feel to it

http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/wa...playnext=3

This album is her experimenting with harder urban sounds with an eccletic mix of great at that time r&b producers. It's no wonder she got a Grammy and some of the best reviews of her career. There are a few other songs on this cd including the duet 'when you belive' with Mariah.

Timmy84 said:

Entertainer said:

Thanks for posting the full videos, thanks much. Arista is crazy for not releasing this documentary. She was on fire in Europe on this tour.

Oops I didn't know that, how did you post the vids so i know for next time?

[Edited 8/4/11 15:17pm]

Use the [youtube:X][/youtube:X] tags. And copy the link but make sure you copy and paste it so it's not posted like a link.

ok so i'm really not good at this so let me try

[youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/wa...WcZCCTVl60

[/youtube]

shoot, it didn't work, what did i not do right? I used the tags as bookends and copied the link. Help! i am really, really bad at this. frankly i suck.

[Edited 8/4/11 17:09pm]

Entertainer said:

Timmy84 said:

Use the [youtube:X][/youtube:X] tags. And copy the link but make sure you copy and paste it so it's not posted like a link.

ok so i'm really not good at this so let me try

[youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/wa...WcZCCTVl60

[/youtube]

shoot, it didn't work, what did i not do right? I used the tags as bookends and copied the link. Help! i am really, really bad at this. frankly i suck.

[Edited 8/4/11 17:09pm]

OK, do this: when you see a YouTube video post, hit reply and see how it's done lol I think that'll be better.

another captivating performance from the my love is your era- mtv EMA awards

get it back/my love is your love remix- all the clothes by dolce & gabana exclusive

award presented by mary j blige- very edgy for her and she pulls it off

I DID IT! YEAh! does the cupid shuffle!!

[Edited 8/4/11 17:32pm]

[Edited 8/4/11 19:45pm]

[Edited 8/4/11 19:46pm]

[Edited 8/4/11 19:47pm]

Entertainer said:

Entertainer said:

ok so i'm really not good at this so let me try

[youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/wa...WcZCCTVl60

[/youtube]

shoot, it didn't work, what did i not do right? I used the tags as bookends and copied the link. Help! i am really, really bad at this. frankly i suck.

[Edited 8/4/11 17:09pm]

Let's see if this work

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/wa...WcZCCTVl60[/youtube]

Or maybe just type it out idk:

vainandy said:

ufoclub said:

I don't mind Whitney Houston as a person, model, pop diva, reality show star, whatever... and she is a great vocalist. But I have never bought anything of hers and never been excited to hear or see her videos. I've never included one of her songs on my own playlist. And I think my lack of excitement is shared by many others. So personally I completely understand why she is not mentioned in the same list as the others. If she had some crazy ass producer like newer school Mark Ronson/Kanye West, mid school like Rick Rubin, or even someone old school like Quincy Jones produce an album for her, it might turn out great. She has enough life material in her soul to really make a cool conceptual album with a personal message.

I think "I Will always Love You" is a great performance, but it's Dolly Parton's song. Just like "Nothing Compares to You" is Prince's song even if Sinead put it out there in hit form.

Since she liked to do drugs, she should have gotten with Rick James at the very beginning of her career. Those two could have smoked a while honey and he could have dressed her up like a whore and not only have given her some good music but a good image also. She definitely had a voice but it's the bullshit she chose to sing that's the problem and what's worse is she influenced so many others with her dead ass music trying to get that soccer mom money, that pretty soon we had a whole new generation of youngsters with the rhythm of Lawrence Welk and no jams being made by anyone. She's not a musical icon, she's a musical terrorist.

But also their are different types of Icons as well. To be honest MJ and Prince are BEYOND just being Icons they are LEGENDS. Whitney is mainly an Icon for her VOICE and some classics. She isnt an Icon for songwriting, being innovative, original etc etc.. nobody is giving her those things but to deny her impact as a vocalist is just crazy. She definitly should NOT be in the same sentence as Prince, Michael, Madonna etc but she still is influential and singers do look up to her. She was a GREAT vocalist..

This was a guilty pleasure...

My fav song from her is Saving All My Love

Thanks Timmy now I finally now how to post vids!!! YAYY lol

[Edited 8/4/11 18:11pm]

Entertainer said:

ufoclub said:

That's more of the type of thing a broadway show singer impresses an old school crowd with. The pop/rock arena is more about conceptual achievements, not singing ability.

People like Jackson, Prince, or Madonna released songs and videos like Thriller, Kiss, Vogue that are conceptually cutting edge in terms of the song approach and the videos. Houston was someone that (and I was in high school in the 80's) was more about non-creative innocent top 40. Two of her biggest singles were covers! And she did them in the most bland way possible from a creative standpoint. Although the three superstars mentioned did dwell into bubble gum pop, they also tried to push things into a creative original realm from time to time. It's about creative thoughtfulness/creative intellect. And even as far as singing technique, it's not like Houston invented anything new.

I wanted to come back to the highlighted point you made. You are so wrong about 'I Will Always Love' you. No one who really knows about pop. r&b vocals, radio during the 1990s and singers would say that it was remade blandly and without creativity.

From all accounts, no one was making a song with an acapella intro for almost a minute of a ballad. She did that and that was sort of a first. Not only that, to hear Dolly Parton's original version and Whitney's is like night and day in that the 2 versions are sung vastly differently.

That would take some creativity alone. No one was singing a big ballad, with an acapella intro, that builded and builed with melisma and head voices throughout. That just wasn't done and that is part of the magic that resonated with people to make that sone an iconic song globally that has sold over 8mil copies.

That was creativity, talent and vocal prowess on steroids. it's why many singers on talent show either try to cover it or are advised against covering it because it has set such a high vocal bar that many who have attempted can't match even herself today.

God and to think I was done with this thread. The big diff is that Dolly showed emotion, depth, and loss in her original tune. The way Dolly half whispers the lyrics has more impact and meaning to the listener. Dolly created a heartfelt message bout love, lost, strength, and graditude. She gave Porter props for what he had taught her but now knew it was time to fly on her own.

Whitney just Blasted out lyrics with a soaring cresendo that left the lyrics cold and sterile.

Dolly got bank, Whitney just went back home.

[Edited 8/5/11 0:36am]

lazycrockett said:

Entertainer said:

I wanted to come back to the highlighted point you made. You are so wrong about 'I Will Always Love' you. No one who really knows about pop. r&b vocals, radio during the 1990s and singers would say that it was remade blandly and without creativity.

From all accounts, no one was making a song with an acapella intro for almost a minute of a ballad. She did that and that was sort of a first. Not only that, to hear Dolly Parton's original version and Whitney's is like night and day in that the 2 versions are sung vastly differently.

That would take some creativity alone. No one was singing a big ballad, with an acapella intro, that builded and builed with melisma and head voices throughout. That just wasn't done and that is part of the magic that resonated with people to make that sone an iconic song globally that has sold over 8mil copies.

That was creativity, talent and vocal prowess on steroids. it's why many singers on talent show either try to cover it or are advised against covering it because it has set such a high vocal bar that many who have attempted can't match even herself today.

God and to think I was done with this thread. The big diff is that Dolly showed emotion, depth, and loss in her original tune. The way Dolly half whispers the lyrics has more impact and meaning to the listener. Dolly created a heartfelt message bout love, lost, strength, and graditude. She gave Porter props for what he had taught her but now knew it was time to fly on her own.

Whitney just Blasted out lyrics with a soaring cresendo that left the lyrics cold and sterile.

Dolly got bank, Whitney just went back home.

[Edited 8/5/11 0:36am]

I am not going to try to convince you which version is better. Musical taste is highly subjective and we like what we like for different reasons just as I like Whitney's better infinitely better even though I can appreciate as well Dolly's version. Whitney's version means something different to many people. I find it funny to this day that it is played at both funerals and weddings. Such a dichotomy especially at weddings when it is about lost and letting go. go figure but again, people got different things from it.

both songs, take me different places and make me feel different emotions.

However, that wasn't your initial point. Your point was that she didn't have any creativity in her 2 largest covers and I disputed that effectively by stating until she did 'IWALY' no on on was singing or and radio wasn't playing a ballad with an acapella intro. That was unheard off at the time.

No one was singing a big ballad with building crescendos and melismic, clean pure headnotes/runs in it. No one that is part of the reason why the song hit and hit in a big way. It was different and distinct from anything heard on the radio at that time. Celine came later with 'My heart will go on' which was structured the same as many ballads at that time, i.e colors of the wind Vanessa Williams etc

In fact, in the post Bodyguard era, I can't really think of another ballad that was sung so differently that made it's mark the way that IWALY did globally.

Regarding this thread, it's a guilty pleasure for many. You can go on and admit it

It almost deserves a sticky.

EmancipationLover said:

Entertainer said:

I think that you are coming from a pop/funk musician type world that doesn't allow for the interpretative skill of a singer. You dont give credit for someone who can take a schmaltzy song and stand flat footed sing and make the hairs on someone arms go up or make someone feel.

Oh, I do give credit for this. Those people are great singers! That doesn't make them icons with a cultural impact.

This is not the point. The point is that it's pretty clear why Prince achieved iconic status in the 1980s and if Whitney has achieved something similar - and if not, why not.

BTW, I think the Preacher's Wife and MLIYL are probably Whitney's most personal cds and also left center for what she was known to put out to the masses.

I'm honest with you: I don't know the complete MLIYL album, just the singles. But if MLIYL (the song) is some of the most adventurous stuff Whitney has ever done, then that's really telling something...

I so appreciate you responding to me in a mature fashion, however, we are at an impasse with our opinions so I'll leave it at that.

However, you really ought to check out 'MLIYL' cd. I'd say her live performances really lifted the material even more as she is often better live than in the studio due to her amazing stage presence. You'd be suprise as I'm betting that you probably think that she is a singer who just stands still and belts.

Some of the edgier songs I've posted links to several of her live performances and some studio cuts links.

Entertainer said:

No one was singing a big ballad with building crescendos and melismic, clean pure headnotes/runs in it. No one that is part of the reason why the song hit and hit in a big way. It was different and distinct from anything heard on the radio at that time. Celine came later with 'My heart will go on' which was structured the same as many ballads at that time, i.e colors of the wind Vanessa Williams etc

In fact, in the post Bodyguard era, I can't really think of another ballad that was sung so differently that made it's mark the way that IWALY did globally.

Isn't that one of the oldest tricks in pop ballads - to let it begin calmly and then have it slowly building up to full force? Without too much thinking, I would spontaneously say that, for example, Foreigner's "I want to know what love is" or Rod Stewart's "Sailing" followed a similar concept. Actually, all these Andrew Lloyd Webber musical ballads such as "Memories" were structured in a similar way, and all this stuff came out years before Whitney's version of IWALY. I don't even mind her version, it is nicely done and performed extremely well, but it's really not exactly a melting pot of adventurous musical innovations.

However, I do see her influence overall. Following Whitney's example, it somehow became fashionable to have female singers singing these big power ballads and to rely on their vocal abilities alone - no interesting image, no exciting personality, just powerful vocals. Celine Dion is indeed the perfect example. But if you expect me to give props to Whitney for paving the way for Celine, you'll have to wait until the next ice age, I'm afraid.

Entertainer said:

EmancipationLover said:

I'm honest with you: I don't know the complete MLIYL album, just the singles. But if MLIYL (the song) is some of the most adventurous stuff Whitney has ever done, then that's really telling something...

I so appreciate you responding to me in a mature fashion, however, we are at an impasse with our opinions so I'll leave it at that.

However, you really ought to check out 'MLIYL' cd. I'd say her live performances really lifted the material even more as she is often better live than in the studio due to her amazing stage presence. You'd be suprise as I'm betting that you probably think that she is a singer who just stands still and belts.

Some of the edgier songs I've posted links to several of her live performances and some studio cuts links.

To be honest, I don't expect us to agree at any stage, but I appreciate a good discussion anyway. It's interesting to me to see where people are coming from, even if you can't make me a Whitney fan. I'm not a hater either though, it's just that her stuff doesn't move me the way it does for you.

I have to admit though that I haven't seen her live yet, and given her current state, it's unfortunately probably not a good idea to do that in the near future. I hope that she recovers though, I don't like seeing people going down the drug road at all. If I have some time over the weekend, I might give the live videos a try - at least she doesn't send the web sheriff on our asses, the way a certain someone from Minneapolis would do... I still think he's more iconic though.

EmancipationLover said:

Entertainer said:

No one was singing a big ballad with building crescendos and melismic, clean pure headnotes/runs in it. No one that is part of the reason why the song hit and hit in a big way. It was different and distinct from anything heard on the radio at that time. Celine came later with 'My heart will go on' which was structured the same as many ballads at that time, i.e colors of the wind Vanessa Williams etc

In fact, in the post Bodyguard era, I can't really think of another ballad that was sung so differently that made it's mark the way that IWALY did globally.

Isn't that one of the oldest tricks in pop ballads - to let it begin calmly and then have it slowly building up to full force? Without too much thinking, I would spontaneously say that, for example, Foreigner's "I want to know what love is" or Rod Stewart's "Sailing" followed a similar concept. Actually, all these Andrew Lloyd Webber musical ballads such as "Memories" were structured in a similar way, and all this stuff came out years before Whitney's version of IWALY. I don't even mind her version, it is nicely done and performed extremely well, but it's really not exactly a melting pot of adventurous musical innovations.

However, I do see her influence overall. Following Whitney's example, it somehow became fashionable to have female singers singing these big power ballads and to rely on their vocal abilities alone - no interesting image, no exciting personality, just powerful vocals. Celine Dion is indeed the perfect example. But if you expect me to give props to Whitney for paving the way for Celine, you'll have to wait until the next ice age, I'm afraid.

ok, i'll rise to your bait re Celine, lots of clips of Celine giving Whitney props and saying that she influenced her and she listened to her as a child with the lastest clip being Celine sending a video message to Whitney via her Oprah interview. Lots of Clips of Whitney coverign Whitney's songs.

I don't think there are any clips or evidence of Whitney ever covering a Celine song. I would never say that Whitney paved the way for Celine but I would say as she has often stated herself, Whitney was a big influence on her.

Regarding IWALY, surely you are not equating Foreigner's 'IWKWLI' to Whitney's IWALY? Cue Mariah's version for a female take and stack it next to IWALY, structures are different, choir use is only in one son, there are not head notes, melismic runs, or slow acapella entry and as I said and as many commenters in the industry and at her label stated including David Foster, releasing IWALY was a huge risk because it did not fit the format that radio was playing. Note you are giving me male examples and even those imo are highly different from whitney's iwaly.

Are you stating that the song, 'Memories' is structured the same as Whitney's 'IWALY' because if you are, I would beg to differ. In fact, you should youtube Whitney's totally different take on 'Memories'. Very, very different.

EmancipationLover said:

Entertainer said:

I so appreciate you responding to me in a mature fashion, however, we are at an impasse with our opinions so I'll leave it at that.

However, you really ought to check out 'MLIYL' cd. I'd say her live performances really lifted the material even more as she is often better live than in the studio due to her amazing stage presence. You'd be suprise as I'm betting that you probably think that she is a singer who just stands still and belts.

Some of the edgier songs I've posted links to several of her live performances and some studio cuts links.

To be honest, I don't expect us to agree at any stage, but I appreciate a good discussion anyway. It's interesting to me to see where people are coming from, even if you can't make me a Whitney fan. I'm not a hater either though, it's just that her stuff doesn't move me the way it does for you.

I have to admit though that I haven't seen her live yet, and given her current state, it's unfortunately probably not a good idea to do that in the near future. I hope that she recovers though, I don't like seeing people going down the drug road at all. If I have some time over the weekend, I might give the live videos a try - at least she doesn't send the web sheriff on our asses, the way a certain someone from Minneapolis would do... I still think he's more iconic though.

And I appreciate a good discussion as well. I'm not a deranged fan that will try to force someone of a different opinion to come over to my side. I present objective facts and my opinion and move on.

The thing with Whitney is that she is fighter and have been counted out too many times to come back. I think to get where she is and have accomplished what she has in the world of modeling, sining, acting, producing and to be sucessful in all of those areas takes a certain type of personality and drive and this same quality will assist her again in maintaining her sobriety and putting out good, quality work.

it's expected that she will return to movies next year in the eagerly anticipated sequel to Waiting to Exhale and it's anticipated that it too will do well just as all of her movies that she has produced and stared in has.

To have a complete view of her, you can't just go by her studio work. Anyone who really knows her, even the haters will admit that she has a very, very good charisma on stage and is a very good live perfomer especially in terms of stage presence.

Fair enough that her stuff doesn't move you just as many of Madonna's stuff doesn't move me but I love her early work and some of her ballads and turn the dial re her live performances for the most part,

I often think that her label should be like the Purple one and take down of her videos, at least the unflattering ones.

Entertainer said:

EmancipationLover said:

Isn't that one of the oldest tricks in pop ballads - to let it begin calmly and then have it slowly building up to full force? Without too much thinking, I would spontaneously say that, for example, Foreigner's "I want to know what love is" or Rod Stewart's "Sailing" followed a similar concept. Actually, all these Andrew Lloyd Webber musical ballads such as "Memories" were structured in a similar way, and all this stuff came out years before Whitney's version of IWALY. I don't even mind her version, it is nicely done and performed extremely well, but it's really not exactly a melting pot of adventurous musical innovations.

However, I do see her influence overall. Following Whitney's example, it somehow became fashionable to have female singers singing these big power ballads and to rely on their vocal abilities alone - no interesting image, no exciting personality, just powerful vocals. Celine Dion is indeed the perfect example. But if you expect me to give props to Whitney for paving the way for Celine, you'll have to wait until the next ice age, I'm afraid.

ok, i'll rise to your bait re Celine, lots of clips of Celine giving Whitney props and saying that she influenced her and she listened to her as a child with the lastest clip being Celine sending a video message to Whitney via her Oprah interview. Lots of Clips of Whitney coverign Whitney's songs.

I don't think there are any clips or evidence of Whitney ever covering a Celine song. I would never say that Whitney paved the way for Celine but I would say as she has often stated herself, Whitney was a big influence on her.

Regarding IWALY, surely you are not equating Foreigner's 'IWKWLI' to Whitney's IWALY? Cue Mariah's version for a female take and stack it next to IWALY, structures are different, choir use is only in one son, there are not head notes, melismic runs, or slow acapella entry and as I said and as many commenters in the industry and at her label stated including David Foster, releasing IWALY was a huge risk because it did not fit the format that radio was playing. Note you are giving me male examples and even those imo are highly different from whitney's iwaly.

Are you stating that the song, 'Memories' is structured the same as Whitney's 'IWALY' because if you are, I would beg to differ. In fact, you should youtube Whitney's totally different take on 'Memories'. Very, very different.

I absolutely do belive that Whitney was a huge influence for Celine. My problem is that I just can't stand Celine Dion. She is to me what Whitney is to Vainandy. This Titanic song makes me aggressive, just as the goddamn movie itself. I would prefer a Whitney record over a Celine record any day of the week. Hell, compared to Celine Dion Whitney sounds like the secret daughter of Rick James and Tina Turner.

I wouldn't state that the arrangement of IWALY is exactly (!) the same as in the ballads I've mentioned, just that the basic principle is a standard concept for pop ballads. Sure, she started a capella - just as "Road to Nowhere" (which is not a ballad though) or "Caravan of Love" by the Housemartins, which was a capella from A to Z. I even believe that it was not without risks to release it as first single - though the radio edit version that many stations played here in Europe lacked a major part of the a capella beginning (I don't know about the USA regarding this point). But it also surely was not an adventurous musical risk such as "The fly" being U2's first single from "Achtung Baby".

Entertainer said:

EmancipationLover said:

To be honest, I don't expect us to agree at any stage, but I appreciate a good discussion anyway. It's interesting to me to see where people are coming from, even if you can't make me a Whitney fan. I'm not a hater either though, it's just that her stuff doesn't move me the way it does for you.

I have to admit though that I haven't seen her live yet, and given her current state, it's unfortunately probably not a good idea to do that in the near future. I hope that she recovers though, I don't like seeing people going down the drug road at all. If I have some time over the weekend, I might give the live videos a try - at least she doesn't send the web sheriff on our asses, the way a certain someone from Minneapolis would do... I still think he's more iconic though.

And I appreciate a good discussion as well. I'm not a deranged fan that will try to force someone of a different opinion to come over to my side. I present objective facts and my opinion and move on.

The thing with Whitney is that she is fighter and have been counted out too many times to come back. I think to get where she is and have accomplished what she has in the world of modeling, sining, acting, producing and to be sucessful in all of those areas takes a certain type of personality and drive and this same quality will assist her again in maintaining her sobriety and putting out good, quality work.

it's expected that she will return to movies next year in the eagerly anticipated sequel to Waiting to Exhale and it's anticipated that it too will do well just as all of her movies that she has produced and stared in has.

To have a complete view of her, you can't just go by her studio work. Anyone who really knows her, even the haters will admit that she has a very, very good charisma on stage and is a very good live perfomer especially in terms of stage presence.

Fair enough that her stuff doesn't move you just as many of Madonna's stuff doesn't move me but I love her early work and some of her ballads and turn the dial re her live performances for the most part,

I often think that her label should be like the Purple one and take down of her videos, at least the unflattering ones.

So there are two things we probably can agree on: Whitney is a far better actor than the "big 3" mentioned in the thread title combined (I do give her that!), and Madonna really is not as interesting as many people think she is (she doesn't move me too much either).

This is true. Whitney is a very decent actress unlike the "big three" who are all lousy actors for the most part lol. Whitney is a natural on screen, just like Diana Ross (who is another singer who I think is a good actress). I think Whitney should have done more movies. Definitely looking forward to the "Waiting To Exhale" sequel.

EmancipationLover said:

I absolutely do belive that Whitney was a huge influence for Celine. My problem is that I just can't stand Celine Dion. She is to me what Whitney is to Vainandy.

Damn right she was an influence on Celine Dionne and Mariah Carey and countless others. That's why I can't stand her ass. She influenced so many people for the worst that the whole damn R&B music scene changed for the worst. I love some funk but I also love some slow jams too and if Shitney had never reared her head when she did, as far as ballads go, the sexy slow jams from the funk groups like "Anticipation" by The Barkays, "Seasons No Reason To Change" by The Gap Band, "Feel Me" by Cameo would have continued on instead of that bland adult contemporary shit. I mean, slow jams just had a different vibe and feel to them before she came along with her influence and she even fucked up the way people made albums too. Groups that were the biggest before her had mostly uptempo funky jams on their albums with maybe two, or three at the most, slow jams. A full fledged "balladeer" was not nearly as successful as the groups. She just fucked things up beyond repair and the music scene never recovered from it.

I remember in the early 1990s, there was this guy I was sleeping with from time to time. He was into all that shit that I can't stand...Shitney Houston, Celine Dion, Mariah Carey, Anita Baker, Mikki Howard, Regina Belle, etc. When I would come over to his house, he'd have his CD carosel on shuffle and shit like that would be playing the whole time we were doing our do. It used to depress the living hell out of me. If the damn dick wasn't worth a damn, I would have stopped coming over because of it. Well, one night, we were doing the do as usual and of all people to come across the speakers was Shitney herself. The more her song played, my teeth just started scraping his dick. I couldn't help it, it was getting on my damn nerves that much. Then the song went off and some more songs by different artists came on. Finally, another Shitney song came on and I jumped up out of that bed and said..."THAT does it! Either you change that damn music or I'm getting the FUCK out of here!".

Wow Vainandy, you must have dynamite between your legs! I sure as hell wouldn't get hard with that music mix in the background!

EmancipationLover said:

Wow Vainandy, you must have dynamite between your legs! I sure as hell wouldn't get hard with that music mix in the background!

Oh, if I had gotten lucky with someone else that night, I wouldn't have been over there. He was one of my two spare tires at the time. What I considered my spare tires were guys that I would stop by and see on my way home at the end of the night if I didn't get lucky with a stranger after a night of clubbing. My other spare tire was a much older guy than me and his daughter was home from college on spring break so he was out of the question. It was either go by this guy's house or go home and jack off. After hearing some of that music he played, a many a night I wished I had just gone home and jacked off.