MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

Because "this label ain't just a label, it's a family, you can't go nowhere and if you do, we'll make sure you get blackballed! "

That's why.

That's what many of those who left after the label's so-called "glory years" learned the hard way.

Families rip each other off too and many don't get along. Look at when some rich people die, the children and/or other relatives fight over the money or estate. Some people (especially ones who talk about "family values"), think a family is like Leave It To Beaver when it's more like the ones on a soap opera.

I don't think you get it.

I mean, yeah I get your scenarios, but I guess you have to get into the shoes of Mary Wells, David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Florence Ballard, Holland-Dozier-Holland, Kim Weston, Stevie, Marvin, and even Diana, to know how that "family sentiment" meant to them and what happened when that facade cracked, once Motown tried to keep the artists almost under their will as if they were in danger if they didn't re-sign.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Families rip each other off too and many don't get along. Look at when some rich people die, the children and/or other relatives fight over the money or estate. Some people (especially ones who talk about "family values"), think a family is like Leave It To Beaver when it's more like the ones on a soap opera.

I don't think you get it.

I mean, yeah I get your scenarios, but I guess you have to get into the shoes of Mary Wells, David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Florence Ballard, Holland-Dozier-Holland, Kim Weston, Stevie, Marvin, and even Diana, to know how that "family sentiment" meant to them and what happened when that facade cracked, once Motown tried to keep the artists almost under their will as if they were in danger if they didn't re-sign.

This might have been the case on Brunswick, but I don't think Motown used any physical threats. I don't see how Stevie could have trusted Berry and Motown, when his own mother Lula didn't. She had to be more of an influence on Steve. Clarence Paul didn't get along well with the Motown staff, and he worked with Stevie a lot during the 60's. Flo Ballard never trusted Berry either.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't think you get it.

I mean, yeah I get your scenarios, but I guess you have to get into the shoes of Mary Wells, David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Florence Ballard, Holland-Dozier-Holland, Kim Weston, Stevie, Marvin, and even Diana, to know how that "family sentiment" meant to them and what happened when that facade cracked, once Motown tried to keep the artists almost under their will as if they were in danger if they didn't re-sign.

This might have been the case on Brunswick, but I don't think Motown used any physical threats. I don't see how Stevie could have trusted Berry and Motown, when his own mother Lula didn't. She had to be more of an influence on Steve. Clarence Paul didn't get along well with the Motown staff, and he worked with Stevie a lot during the 60's. Flo Ballard never trusted Berry either.

It was more about mentality. Motown may not have physically threatened to harm people but they did try to control its artists. That's the reason Stevie had to get tough goons to represent him in order for him to leave Berry's control. Marvin, it was tougher for him because one, he was married to a Gordy, and two, half of his assets were also sold to Berry when he signed with Motown (Harvey Fuqua sold a portion of his contract with Marvin to Motown, which Marvin found out a while after signing). So Marvin had a whole lot more to lose than Stevie. How he triumphed out of that adversity is amazing on its own.

Timmy84 said:

TonyVanDam said:

BACK ON TOPIC: Berry Gordy should have and retired around the time Teena Marie filed that lawsuit to get out of Motown. It's downright disappointing that Berry never learn his lesson from his disputes with Marvin & Stevie that you have to let recording artists be "artists".

Yeah that fucker was trying to keep his artists under seige. Rick learned to never trust Berry with a contract thanks to sound advice.

Now remember, Smokey used to be the vice-president "in name only". Had Berry retired in 1980 and just let Smokey be the president of Motown plus had Jermaine (Berry's son-in-law at the time) as vice-president, there would be no doubt that the label would still be independent AND successful right now. At least Smokey & Jermaine would have been more laidback and let their artists be creative.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Families rip each other off too and many don't get along. Look at when some rich people die, the children and/or other relatives fight over the money or estate. Some people (especially ones who talk about "family values"), think a family is like Leave It To Beaver when it's more like the ones on a soap opera.

I don't think you get it.

I mean, yeah I get your scenarios, but I guess you have to get into the shoes of Mary Wells, David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Florence Ballard, Holland-Dozier-Holland, Kim Weston, Stevie, Marvin, and even Diana, to know how that "family sentiment" meant to them and what happened when that facade cracked, once Motown tried to keep the artists almost under their will as if they were in danger if they didn't re-sign.

Of course, that scare tactic backfired when The Jacksons, Marvin, Diana, & Teena (who have to filed a lawsuit first!) all left Motown one by one.

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah that fucker was trying to keep his artists under seige. Rick learned to never trust Berry with a contract thanks to sound advice.

Now remember, Smokey used to be the vice-president "in name only". Had Berry retired in 1980 and just let Smokey be the president of Motown plus had Jermaine (Berry's son-in-law at the time) as vice-president, there would be no doubt that the label would still be independent AND successful right now. At least Smokey & Jermaine would have been more laidback and let their artists be creative.

I agree. He lost a great opportunity having those two run Motown like he "promised". He didn't seem to keep his promise. Don't get how Smokey is still friends with him.

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't think you get it.

I mean, yeah I get your scenarios, but I guess you have to get into the shoes of Mary Wells, David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Florence Ballard, Holland-Dozier-Holland, Kim Weston, Stevie, Marvin, and even Diana, to know how that "family sentiment" meant to them and what happened when that facade cracked, once Motown tried to keep the artists almost under their will as if they were in danger if they didn't re-sign.

Of course, that scare tactic backfired when The Jacksons, Marvin, Diana, & Teena (who have to filed a lawsuit first!) all left Motown one by one.

I would add Gladys and the Isleys but they all had reputations when they left Motown so it didn't faze them. Hell they were considered "outsiders" anyways (same with the Spinners).

Timmy84 said:

TonyVanDam said:

Now remember, Smokey used to be the vice-president "in name only". Had Berry retired in 1980 and just let Smokey be the president of Motown plus had Jermaine (Berry's son-in-law at the time) as vice-president, there would be no doubt that the label would still be independent AND successful right now. At least Smokey & Jermaine would have been more laidback and let their artists be creative.

I agree. He lost a great opportunity having those two run Motown like he "promised". He didn't seem to keep his promise. Don't get how Smokey is still friends with him.

Better yet, I don't see how Smokey did NOT know that his best friend Berry could be a cheeky bastard sometimes.

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

I agree. He lost a great opportunity having those two run Motown like he "promised". He didn't seem to keep his promise. Don't get how Smokey is still friends with him.

Better yet, I don't see how Smokey did NOT know that his best friend Berry could be a cheeky bastard sometimes.

I don't get that either. But I guess Smokey still looks up to him like he did when he was only 17. It's like you're 71 now and you're still kissing Berry's ass? COME ON!

[Edited 7/1/11 23:50pm]

Timmy84 said:

TonyVanDam said:

Better yet, I don't see how Smokey did NOT know that his best friend Berry could be a cheeky bastard sometimes.

I don't get that either. But I guess Smokey still looks up to him like he did when he was only 17. It's like you're 71 now and you're still kissing Berry's ass? COME ON!

[Edited 7/1/11 23:50pm]

I think Berry Gordy & Smokey Robinson are the Baby & Lil' Wayne of their generation.

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't get that either. But I guess Smokey still looks up to him like he did when he was only 17. It's like you're 71 now and you're still kissing Berry's ass? COME ON!

[Edited 7/1/11 23:50pm]

I think Berry Gordy & Smokey Robinson are the Baby & Lil' Wayne of their generation.

You could have a point about that though.

Berry Gordy didn't have the means or resources to "blackball" anyone. The only "power" Mr. Gordy had and used to his advantage, the racist constraints put on African-American artist of any elk. We are speaking of the late 50's, through-out the 60's and early early 70's; many Black artist were still depended on white management for work, opening up doors, and keeping personal humiliation to a minimum. We are still talking about the Motown Review playing to all Black audiences (in the States) at Black venues. So, with the exception of Stax's and Vee-Jay Records, Motown to some degree was the only game in town, for a minute. Things started to "change" when artist (I would guess potential artist) began to be courted by bigger and deeper pocket record companies... realizing the potential for profit. Less get real, Mr. Gordy was never going to give call me Ms. Ross 20 million dollar record deal and he was in love with the woman.

Motown as everyone knows (like most record companies) functioned like the old Hollywood Studio system the company took care of all your needs. You may not have had a lot of money in the bank but they provided a salary, home, cars all financed by them. Old fashioned sharecropping setup because you never know how much you really made. The "boss" sets the prices, in most instance you never make enough to square away all your overhead and you had to depend the books of the "boss", were on the up and up.

==========================

[Edited 7/2/11 22:11pm]

TD3 said:

Berry Gordy didn't have the means or resources to "blackball" anyone. The only "power" Mr. Gordy had and used to his advantage, the racist constraints put on African-American artist of any elk. We are speaking of the late 50's, through-out the 60's and early early 70's; many Black artist were still depended on white management for work, opening up doors, and keeping personal humiliation to a minimum. We are still talking about the Motown Review playing to all Black audiences (in the States) at Black venues. So, with the exception of Stax's and Vee-Jay Records, Motown to some degree was the only game in town, for a minute. Things started to "change" when artist (I would guess potential artist) began to be courted by bigger and deeper pocket record companies... realizing the potential for profit. Less get real, Mr. Gordy was never going to give call me Ms. Ross 20 million dollar record deal and he was in love with the woman.

Motown as everyone knows (like most record companies) functioned like the old Hollywood Studio system the company took care of all your needs. You may not have had a lot of money in the bank but they provided a salary, home, cars all financed by them. Old fashioned sharecropping setup because you never know how much you really made. The "boss" sets the prices, in most instance you never make enough to square away all your overhead and you had to depend the books of the "boss", were on the up and up.

==========================

[Edited 7/2/11 22:11pm]

True lol

TonyVanDam said:

babybugz said:

It's Berry Gordy.

It's the same Berry Gordy Jr. that still believes that Motown was one big happy family most of the time.

Yet, many of the great acts were getting out of dodge. That statement baffles me