When Marvin Broke Pattern

By MARC MYERS

Bel Air, Calif.

Dressed in a crisp white linen shirt, black slacks and black loafers, Berry Gordy Jr. settled into a plush sofa last week as Marvin Gaye's voice boomed through a recessed speaker system. The founder of Motown Records had invited me to his estate here high above Los Angeles to talk about "What's Going On," Gaye's monumental hit single and album released 40 years ago, to be reissued Tuesday as a remastered anniversary package. By the end of the title track, Mr. Gordy's eyes were watery.

Zina Saunders

An illustration of Berry Gordy Jr.

"For years, people have written that I stood in the way of this song's release and that Marvin had threatened never to record for me again if I didn't put it out," said the 81-year-old Mr. Gordy. "That must make for great reading, but none of it is true."

Released first as a single in January 1971, "What's Going On" marked a major turning point for Gaye, Motown and soul music. Rather than continue to record formulaic pop hits, Gaye co-wrote a song that expressed his deep concern about the Vietnam War and the toll it was taking on American society.

The single was considered a gamble for Motown. Its blunt protest theme was in stark contrast with Gaye's sexy public persona and Motown's congenial image. But as "What's Going On" raced up the Billboard Hot 100 chart, Gaye rushed back into the studio to complete a concept album that included "Mercy Mercy Me (The Ecology)" and "Inner City Blues." The new songs—supported by horns, strings and a choir arranged by David Van DePitte—took on urban decay, poverty, unemployment, Vietnam veterans, children and pollution.

Released in May 1971, the LP reached No. 6 on Billboard's Top 10 album chart in July, and two of its songs are now in the Grammy Hall of Fame—the title track and "Mercy Mercy Me (The Ecology)." To commemorate the album's 40th anniversary, UME/Motown will release a remastered edition that includes two CDs with 16 previously unreleased tracks and a vinyl LP of Gaye's first mix.

When Gaye began developing the single in 1970, Mr. Gordy was taken aback by the directness of the lyrics. "I'll be honest. At first I didn't want Marvin to do it," said Mr. Gordy. "I was in Bermuda when Marvin called to tell me he was putting together a protest song. I said, 'Protest?' I was stunned. Up until then, Marvin's career had been based on a positive image, and his fans loved him for it. I told him we should talk when I returned."

In 1970, Gaye had been in a yearlong crossover slump—particularly painful for one of Motown's top earners. His previous six singles had failed to gain traction, reaching only high double-digits on Billboard's Hot 100 Chart.

"To understand my first reaction to Marvin's 'What's Going On,' you have to understand my close relationship with him," said Mr. Gordy, whose sister Anna was married to Gaye at the time. "Marvin often came to me with crazy ideas. One time he wanted to be a professional boxer. Then later he wanted to join the Detroit Lions. He was a restless genius, and with genius comes a little craziness. My job was to make him see the consequences of his decisions, to protect him."

When Mr. Gordy returned from Bermuda, he and Gaye had several conversations about the single. He told Gaye that as one of the label's best-selling stars and a Motown leader, he had certain responsibilities. "Marvin's answer was, 'No, BG, you don't understand, you have to let me do this. I want to awaken the minds of men,'" Mr. Gordy said. "When I heard that, it changed my mind."

But Mr. Gordy still had reservations about some of Gaye's lyrics for "What's Going On," specifically the line about police brutality. "I told Marvin he couldn't generalize like that, that the people in the Detroit Police Department were my friends and that every policeman wasn't brutal," Mr. Gordy said. "I said, 'Even though something is true, Marvin, why should you and Motown be the ones to say it?' Marvin said, 'Who else but us?' Of course, Marvin was right."

By 1970, social issues and protest weren't completely new themes for Mr. Gordy or Motown. In 1963, Mr. Gordy had Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. record his "I Have a Dream" speech for Motown's Gordy label. And hit songs like the Supremes' "Love Child" (1968), the Temptations' "Ball of Confusion" (1970) and Edwin Star's "War" (1970) had abstractly addressed poverty, children born out of wedlock and the brutality of war.

"My reason for pushing back on Marvin wasn't to stop the single, just to determine whether or not this was another one of his wild ideas," Mr. Gordy said. "Motown was about music for all people—white and black, blue and green, cops and the robbers. I was reluctant to have our music alienate anyone. This was a big risk for his image."

What about the delay between the single's completion in September 1970 and its release four months later at the end of January 1971? "The other labels would put out their big releases in September and October for Christmas," Mr. Gordy said. "But we would typically wait until after the holiday season to release singles on our major artists so the field would be clear."

Did someone really leak the single leaked to a Los Angeles disc jockey in January 1971, as some articles have said, to test public reaction or force Mr. Gordy's hand? "That's another one of those colorful stories," Mr. Gordy said. "Motown had tight controls, and no one at the label would have done something like that. Marvin would never have defied me."

Interestingly, two of the most singular aspects of "What's Going On" that were extended to the album began as errors. The opening alto-sax solo by Eli Fontaine actually was a warm-up phrase for an overdub that Gaye decided to keep. And Gaye's harmonized duets with himself occurred when Ken Sands, the engineer, accidentally played back two of his vocal versions on one mono tape.

"Marvin would use that duet technique on many of his studio albums going forward," said Mr. Gordy, after we relocated to his spacious home office. "We called his love of overdubbing 'Marvin on top of Marvin on top of Marvin.' We also had a name for Marvin at Motown, but I can't remember it."

To jog his memory, Mr. Gordy reached over to his speakerphone and pressed a button. When a female voice answered, Mr. Gordy said, "Smokey, please." Within seconds, Mr. Robinson was on the line.

"We called him 'Dad,'" Mr. Robinson said. "He walked like an old man, with all the troubles he had with his feet."

After getting off the phone, Mr. Gordy laughed lovingly and shook his head. Then he looked across the room and grew serious, pointing to the largest color photo on the wood-paneled wall. It was a framed image of Mr. Gordy, Gaye and other top stars on stage at the televised "Motown 25" reunion concert in 1983, a year before the singer's death at age 44.

"I loved Marvin, and I think of 'What's Going On' as one of Motown's most prestigious singles and albums," Mr. Gordy said. "I thought those records would ruin him. Instead, they made him an icon."

Mr. Myers writes daily about jazz, soul, rock and R&B at JazzWax.com.

Hmmmm interesting!, never heard Berrys side of thing's.... either way whatever really went down. All that matters is an amazing album was made!

Gunsnhalen said:

Hmmmm interesting!, never heard Berrys side of thing's.... either way whatever really went down. All that matters is an amazing album was made!

Berry said the same thing about 16 years ago but he was all like afraid Marvin would ruin his image, of course Marvin wouldn't budge. Berry said that after its release, he realized he had made a "mistake" by denouncing it on face value.

Timmy84 said:

Gunsnhalen said:

Hmmmm interesting!, never heard Berrys side of thing's.... either way whatever really went down. All that matters is an amazing album was made!

Berry said the same thing about 16 years ago but he was all like afraid Marvin would ruin his image, of course Marvin wouldn't budge. Berry said that after its release, he realized he had made a "mistake" by denouncing it on face value.

Hmmm i sadly never heard much about this. I have heard Berry Gordy is very shadow in some his musical practices

Gunsnhalen said:

Timmy84 said:

Berry said the same thing about 16 years ago but he was all like afraid Marvin would ruin his image, of course Marvin wouldn't budge. Berry said that after its release, he realized he had made a "mistake" by denouncing it on face value.

Hmmm i sadly never heard much about this. I have heard Berry Gordy is very shadow in some his musical practices

Something he (and Smoke) have denied over the years lol there were also rumors that he used preferrential treatment of Diana Ross over the other acts, even his bro-in-law Marvin. Other folks for years - even Smoke - said Berry Gordy thought "What's Going On" "sucked ass" and that some Motown A&R person leaked it in January '71. Technically I guess I can see how Berry was convinced by Marvin's words, we just don't know if he agreed with Marvin and then turned his back and argued about putting it out. Get the "What's Going On" DVD documentary, you get Berry's side and Marvin's side. Marvin, of course, was more blunt:

Marvin Gaye said (in a 1981 interview):

There was some disagreements, some semi-violent disagreements between Berry and myself, politically speaking...

[Edited 6/28/11 17:32pm]

In short his side of the story is the same damn one that everyone then knew, Gordy was quaking in BVD's: "MY GOD WHAT ARE THE WHITE PEOPLE GOING TO THINK!" Please.

--------------------------------------------

[Edited 6/28/11 17:42pm]

TD3 said:

In short his side of the story is the same damn one that everyone then knew, Gordy was quaking in BVD's: "MY GOD WHAT ARE THE WHITE PEOPLE GOING TO THINK!" Please.

--------------------------------------------

[Edited 6/28/11 17:42pm]

Exactly.

And "oh how dare Marvin defy me!" He knew damn well Marvin told him to kiss his ass and that he wanted it out. Marvin knew what he was doing. And at that point I doubt Marvin cared of sales during that particular time in his career. He saw it as something he NEEDED to put out. He later said the record was done on a "divine purpose" so you can see why he was hesitant on getting it out. Berry almost tried to stop the release of the full album, but due to the success of the title track, said "to hell with it".

Oddly, folks crossed over to Marvin without Marvin crossing over to THEM after "What's Going On". How about that.

I think he's lying.

armpit said:

I think he's lying.

Yeah lol

He's doing 40-years too late PR damage too.

Timmy84 said:

armpit said:

I think he's lying.

Yeah lol

He's doing 40-years too late PR damage too.

He probably got paid to do this interview for the 40th Anniversary of the album anyway. Maybe he needed a little gambling money.

This thread should be retitled, "Berry Gordy Is Still Full of Shit!" He wasn't thinking about Marvin's image, he was worried about pissing off white people that would turn their back on Motown .

I've heard similar rumblings (never bothered to confirm it, though) that he was all like at Stevie's "Village Ghetto Land", the line about the polititians being drunk to all demands, in an elcetion year. Anybody heard that story...is it true or also just an urban legend.

Adisa said:

This thread should be retitled, "Berry Gordy Is Still Full of Shit!" He wasn't thinking about Marvin's image, he was worried about pissing off white people that would turn their back on Motown .

I've heard similar rumblings (never bothered to confirm it, though) that he was all like at Stevie's "Village Ghetto Land", the line about the polititians being drunk to all demands, in an elcetion year. Anybody heard that story...is it true or also just an urban legend.

Wouldn't be surprised. He and Stevie were actually at odds throughout the '70s. I think Stevie's need for control and Berry's focus on Diana led to other projects Stevie was working on (mainly the Syreeta albums) to bomb commercially as it did.

Timmy84 said:

Adisa said:

This thread should be retitled, "Berry Gordy Is Still Full of Shit!" He wasn't thinking about Marvin's image, he was worried about pissing off white people that would turn their back on Motown .

I've heard similar rumblings (never bothered to confirm it, though) that he was all like at Stevie's "Village Ghetto Land", the line about the polititians being drunk to all demands, in an elcetion year. Anybody heard that story...is it true or also just an urban legend.

Wouldn't be surprised. He and Stevie were actually at odds throughout the '70s. I think Stevie's need for control and Berry's focus on Diana led to other projects Stevie was working on (mainly the Syreeta albums) to bomb commercially as it did.

I wonder if Stevie wanted those albums to bomb or did he want to be this multi-faceted artist that wanted to focus on more outside productions?

Adisa said:

He wasn't thinking about Marvin's image, he was worried about pissing off white people that would turn their back on Motown.

Other than the Jackson 5, Stevie, Marvin, and later The Commodores, for the most part Motown's stuff wasn't really crossing over that much during the 1970's. Even during the 1960's, the majority of acts signed to Motown didn't even get R&B hits, as Gordy only focused on really pushing a few acts.

MickyDolenz said:

Adisa said:

He wasn't thinking about Marvin's image, he was worried about pissing off white people that would turn their back on Motown.

Other than the Jackson 5, Stevie, Marvin, and later The Commodores, for the most part Motown's stuff wasn't really crossing over that much during the 1970's. Even during the 1960's, the majority of acts signed to Motown didn't even get R&B hits, as Gordy only focused on really pushing a few acts.

But Berry's main goal WAS to get at the mainstream pop market. Of course he picked favorites, or ones he felt had the commercial sound (Marvin included).

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Other than the Jackson 5, Stevie, Marvin, and later The Commodores, for the most part Motown's stuff wasn't really crossing over that much during the 1970's. Even during the 1960's, the majority of acts signed to Motown didn't even get R&B hits, as Gordy only focused on really pushing a few acts.

But Berry's main goal WAS to get at the mainstream pop market. Of course he picked favorites, or ones he felt had the commercial sound (Marvin included).

It's been said that once Motown left Detroit, Berry had less to do with working with the record label and focused more on trying to get into the movie business.

MickyDolenz said:

Adisa said:

He wasn't thinking about Marvin's image, he was worried about pissing off white people that would turn their back on Motown.

Other than the Jackson 5, Stevie, Marvin, and later The Commodores, for the most part Motown's stuff wasn't really crossing over that much during the 1970's. Even during the 1960's, the majority of acts signed to Motown didn't even get R&B hits, as Gordy only focused on really pushing a few acts.

All record companies do that. WB did it in the 80s with Prince and Madonna (and a few others), but the majority of the marketing budget with to the big acts and little acts get a very small portion.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

But Berry's main goal WAS to get at the mainstream pop market. Of course he picked favorites, or ones he felt had the commercial sound (Marvin included).

It's been said that once Motown left Detroit, Berry had less to do with working with the record label and focused more on trying to get into the movie business.

That was a proven fact but he still was president of the organization so in a way he was always connected to the music. I see Berry's not trying to take full responsibility for HELPING to neglect the artists signed to the label. If the staff he hired had not gotten Rick James, and then later getting Rick to help a struggling Teena Marie, they would've both went to different labels. Same with the DeBarge family. Berry failed as a Hollywood producer too.

daPrettyman said:

MickyDolenz said:

Other than the Jackson 5, Stevie, Marvin, and later The Commodores, for the most part Motown's stuff wasn't really crossing over that much during the 1970's. Even during the 1960's, the majority of acts signed to Motown didn't even get R&B hits, as Gordy only focused on really pushing a few acts.

All record companies do that. WB did it in the 80s with Prince and Madonna (and a few others), but the majority of the marketing budget with to the big acts and little acts get a very small portion.

But most labels don't claim to be a "family" or "The Sound Of Young America". I don't think releasing an album by Irene Ryan (Granny on Beverly Hillbillies) was going to appeal to "young America".

MickyDolenz said:

daPrettyman said:

All record companies do that. WB did it in the 80s with Prince and Madonna (and a few others), but the majority of the marketing budget with to the big acts and little acts get a very small portion.

But most labels don't claim to be a "family" or "The Sound Of Young America". I don't think releasing an album by Irene Ryan (Granny on Beverly Hillbillies) was going to appeal to "young America".

"Family" my ass.

Maybe that was true in the EARLY years but not after 1967.

Mr. Gordy was a coward and a liar then and he's a coward and liar now.

It's all GAME.

Graycap23 said:

It's all GAME.

Right.

MickyDolenz said:

daPrettyman said:

All record companies do that. WB did it in the 80s with Prince and Madonna (and a few others), but the majority of the marketing budget with to the big acts and little acts get a very small portion.

But most labels don't claim to be a "family" or "The Sound Of Young America". I don't think releasing an album by Irene Ryan (Granny on Beverly Hillbillies) was going to appeal to "young America".

Maybe he thought it was going to be a country hit.

can anybody prove that mr gordy is lying?

jackson35 said:

can anybody prove that mr gordy is lying?

It's Berry Gordy.

babybugz said:

jackson35 said:

can anybody prove that mr gordy is lying?

It's Berry Gordy.

The issues concerning Gaye's "What's Going On" album, the Tempations recording of War and the debates around Motown, about artist and songwriters wanting to address the political and social upheaval at that time was common knowledge. This mess didn't happen in a vacumm or behind closed doors, Gaye and other Motown artist spoke about this extensively in the Black press and mainstream. Barry Gordy is like a lot of Black's then and now, they are terrified of white people... a hand wringer. Hence, I called him a coward and a liar.

armpit said:

I think he's lying.

So do I. We all know damn good and well that Berry once thought Marvin was risking career suicide by not sticking with the Classic Motown crossover formula.

babybugz said:

jackson35 said:

can anybody prove that mr gordy is lying?

It's Berry Gordy.

It's the same Berry Gordy Jr. that still believes that Motown was one big happy family most of the time.