lastdecember said:

jpnyc said:

A guy who has written entire albums worth of material for other musicians complains about American Idol being karaoke. This is just too easy.

How is that a connection? Those songs are written for them, the Idol people are covering songs they most of time dont even know, or have a clue what they are. Big difference. Idol is Karoake, just as bad as some drunk in a bar singing along to lisa lisa's all cried out, if thats the case put that shit on tv too.

One time I was at somebody's house who had cable and there was some sort of celeb karoake show on. I remember Sting singing Don't You Want Me by Human League.

MickyDolenz said:

lastdecember said:

How is that a connection? Those songs are written for them, the Idol people are covering songs they most of time dont even know, or have a clue what they are. Big difference. Idol is Karoake, just as bad as some drunk in a bar singing along to lisa lisa's all cried out, if thats the case put that shit on tv too.

One time I was at somebody's house who had cable and there was some sort of celeb karoake show on. I remember Sting singing Don't You Want Me by Human League.

well Sting lost his cred awhile back when he did the grammy show with Puffy

lastdecember said:

MickyDolenz said:

One time I was at somebody's house who had cable and there was some sort of celeb karoake show on. I remember Sting singing Don't You Want Me by Human League.

well Sting lost his cred awhile back when he did the grammy show with Puffy

I think you mean MTV VMA's and then had the nerve to redo "Roxanne" with Puffy Shits.

He sounds like me when I was 19 and the show came out, I was being obnoxious about it too and noticed everyone was shrieking like Christina Aguilera and still is, and I felt like it was an insult to people like the J5 and artists who had to work their way up from rags to riches. But I did audition for Idol where I'm at, at some point and made it to the judge round, which I failed out of stage fright and cause I felt restricted from being myself and thinking I won't fit their cookie cutter image....so that might make me a bit of a hypocrite, I did it to see how far I would get.

But I must admit, Kelly and Jordin have some really nice songs, and that Sanjaya was cute no matter what anyone says

Last but not least, Richard is awesome.

[Edited 5/21/11 19:11pm]

alphastreet said:

I felt like it was an insult to people like the J5 and artists who had to work their way up from rags to riches.

Well a long time ago there was a program called The Gong Show.

MickyDolenz said:

alphastreet said:

I felt like it was an insult to people like the J5 and artists who had to work their way up from rags to riches.

Well a long time ago there was a program called The Gong Show.

I was about to say lol shows like "Idol" have been going on for a long time lol

Yeah I've heard of Star Search and the like too

lastdecember said:

rialb said:

I admit I'm not a fan but what cred? If he wrote songs for N'Sync I do not believe that credibility is a concern.

Besides, maybe he could make a small impact on the show and steer them towards what he views as being better singers? Probably not but you never know. He might catch on and be very popular.

first of all a 47 year old is not going to have some "pop culture" popularity all of a sudden, this is not the 80's, hes too old for people to just get into him. Two the show isnt going to change its course because the public could care less about what is put out there, we forget William Hung had a top 30 record. And last, why do we cherrypick the artists he has written for, ok nysnc all of sudden is shit, but what about Luther and Lionel or striesand, so is Prince shit because he wrote for Carmen ELectra he has no cred for anything? i mean come on now. ANd last thing said that Nsync song is actually good, and the way it was crafted by him actually gave them their biggest hit, and i think we all have been saying someone like GaGa makes good pop songs, well im sure tons of people on this forum thought the same of Justin Timberlake too, so again its cherrypicking.

Steven Tyler is in his '60s and the kids seem to like him.

If the network and producers think a change of course will garner higher ratings they will absolutely change course.

N'Sync isn't all of a sudden shit, they were shit right out of the gate.

We will just have to agree to disagree about Mr. Marx. Maybe he has some fantastic album cuts but any of his music that I have heard I found to be very bland and unappealing. He's not someone that I have any respect for as a singer or songwriter. So, at least for me, he doesn't have any "cred."

Prince has certainly made some bad music and questionable decisions regarding the artists that he has worked with but his highs are in a completely different leage than anything Richard Marx has even dreamed about as far as music goes. Of course as a Prince fan I am biased but I think it is fair to say that Prince has a sense of adventure and experimentation in his music that Richard Marx does not. To be fair I'm not sure if Richard Marx ever aspired to anything more than crafting catchy pop songs and on that level he succeeded.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Well a long time ago there was a program called The Gong Show.

I was about to say lol shows like "Idol" have been going on for a long time lol

Technically, you could say that places like the Apollo Theater are an old version, although not televised (unless you count the 1980's Showtime At The Apollo program). Even the old "rate-a-record" on American Bandstand is sort of the same thing.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

I was about to say lol shows like "Idol" have been going on for a long time lol

Technically, you could say that places like the Apollo Theater are an old version, although not televised (unless you count the 1980's Showtime At The Apollo program). Even the old "rate-a-record" on American Bandstand is sort of the same thing.

"Showtime" was still raw because judges didn't critique you: the audience did. That's really WHAT should matter. Believe me if someone like, Sanjaya, or Justin Guarnini had come on the Apollo stage, there wouldn't be no Paula Abdul to "groom" them with comments about how nice they look, no Randy Jackson to tell them, "you need to work on your steelo, dawg", no crying girl in the middle of the audience, no cards saying WE LOVE YOU XXX. No you'll have an audience that will BOO you off the stage, you hear this big siren, and this dude comes out in a clown outfit dancing your untalented ass off the stage. With American Bandstand, they mix the style and substance so if you wasn't shit they let you know it too.

American Idol ass-kisses you until you do something that pisses them off.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Technically, you could say that places like the Apollo Theater are an old version, although not televised (unless you count the 1980's Showtime At The Apollo program). Even the old "rate-a-record" on American Bandstand is sort of the same thing.

"Showtime" was still raw because judges didn't critique you: the audience did. That's really WHAT should matter. Believe me if someone like, Sanjaya, or Justin Guarnini had come on the Apollo stage, there wouldn't be no Paula Abdul to "groom" them with comments about how nice they look, no Randy Jackson to tell them, "you need to work on your steelo, dawg", no crying girl in the middle of the audience, no cards saying WE LOVE YOU XXX. No you'll have an audience that will BOO you off the stage, you hear this big siren, and this dude comes out in a clown outfit dancing your untalented ass off the stage. With American Bandstand, they mix the style and substance so if you wasn't shit they let you know it too.

American Idol ass-kisses you until you do something that pisses them off.

I don't watch AI, but from what I understand the callers pick the winner, not the judges.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

"Showtime" was still raw because judges didn't critique you: the audience did. That's really WHAT should matter. Believe me if someone like, Sanjaya, or Justin Guarnini had come on the Apollo stage, there wouldn't be no Paula Abdul to "groom" them with comments about how nice they look, no Randy Jackson to tell them, "you need to work on your steelo, dawg", no crying girl in the middle of the audience, no cards saying WE LOVE YOU XXX. No you'll have an audience that will BOO you off the stage, you hear this big siren, and this dude comes out in a clown outfit dancing your untalented ass off the stage. With American Bandstand, they mix the style and substance so if you wasn't shit they let you know it too.

American Idol ass-kisses you until you do something that pisses them off.

I don't watch AI, but from what I understand the callers pick the winner, not the judges.

Well yeah but that's still as bad as judges ass-kissing you every night.

lastdecember said:

Richard Voiced these opinions a few years back in an interview in 2003, so im surprised they went back and asked him about judging the damn show, but Richard once again, shows why he is so friggin cool, and hes 100% on point about the show and what its teaching young singers to do.

Despite having many of his compositions covered on “Idol,” it turns out Richard isn’t too big a fan of the show–which, in a most Simon Cowell-esque fashion, he dubbed “one long karaoke night.” And despite the fact that he’d probably never consider taking a job as a reality show judge–because it would require him to, you know, actually WATCH a reality show–I admire his honesty and still think he’d be a great guy for the job.

“It’s not about artistry,” Richard said of “Idol” and similar shows. “How am I supposed to know about some 20-year-old’s artistry when they’re making him sing some old Motown track to a horribly bad arrangement?” Hey, the man had a point.

Additionally, Richard argued, with great validity: “Audiences seem to think that a singer is really good not necessarily because that singer is singing well, but because they’re just singing loud. Singing loud doesn’t necessarily mean you’re singing well–and everyone on ‘American Idol’ sings loud!”

Still, I’d love to see Richard on a panel alongside Randy Jackson, as it would undoubtedly be a total lovefest. Said Richard of The Dawg: “I love that Randy Jackson has become a gazillionaire because of ‘American Idol,’ but what I don’t like is that people don’t know that he’s one of the most talented people we’ve ever had in the music business. He is such a deeply gifted musican, and he’s sort of become a little bit of a cartoon because of that show.”

Well then, maybe Richard could give Randy some tips on how to be a tougher, better judge? And maybe Richard would reconsider taking a judging job like Randy’s? Mr. Marx may be a little polarizing, and more than a little snarky, but his refreshing hard-stance opinions are just what reality television needs.

Much respect to Richard Marx for going public with these comments. Richard Marx probably appreciates the royalties that are kicked back whenever a contestant sings one of his compositonns, but he's sticking by his principles. That show celebrates mediocrity and mawkish performances. I can't stand that show! Everybody I know watches that show religiously. The premise is a joke. I don't care if Aretha Franklin or Barbara Streisand were vocal judges, nobody can act as the authority of good singing. If this show was in a format like Star Search it wouldn't bother me, because it's for amateurs.

In the end, the acts that do win, sing to tracks produced by producers singed to AI's production company, get screwed with bad contracts, and have little creative control. Unfortunately shows like AI and X-Factor are here to stay. With that said, Fox won't get any Neilsen ratings from my home.

bashraka said:

With that said, Fox won't get any Neilsen ratings from my home.

You must have one of those Neilsen boxes. Otherwise, just watching something doesn't give out any ratings.

Timmy84 said:

lastdecember said:

Why would he want to be a judge? I mean outside of Randy Jackson and maybe Simon who has cred to criticize?? JLO and PAULA talking about how people sing?? really?? How about we get actual singers to judge, lets see what happens then. and lets not talk about ELLEN judging, whats next Ms. Piggy

[Edited 5/21/11 16:59pm]

Dude don't give them ideas they MIGHT just do that if Steven and J-Lo decide to ditch it after this is over.

Hey, I remember Ms. Piggy singing up a storm on several "Muppets" episodes. Honestly, I think she would have made a more qualified judge than Ellen.

kitbradley said:

Timmy84 said:

Dude don't give them ideas they MIGHT just do that if Steven and J-Lo decide to ditch it after this is over.

Hey, I remember Ms. Piggy singing up a storm on several "Muppets" episodes. Honestly, I think she would have made a more qualified judge than Ellen.

rialb said:

lastdecember said:

first of all a 47 year old is not going to have some "pop culture" popularity all of a sudden, this is not the 80's, hes too old for people to just get into him. Two the show isnt going to change its course because the public could care less about what is put out there, we forget William Hung had a top 30 record. And last, why do we cherrypick the artists he has written for, ok nysnc all of sudden is shit, but what about Luther and Lionel or striesand, so is Prince shit because he wrote for Carmen ELectra he has no cred for anything? i mean come on now. ANd last thing said that Nsync song is actually good, and the way it was crafted by him actually gave them their biggest hit, and i think we all have been saying someone like GaGa makes good pop songs, well im sure tons of people on this forum thought the same of Justin Timberlake too, so again its cherrypicking.

Steven Tyler is in his '60s and the kids seem to like him.

If the network and producers think a change of course will garner higher ratings they will absolutely change course.

N'Sync isn't all of a sudden shit, they were shit right out of the gate.

We will just have to agree to disagree about Mr. Marx. Maybe he has some fantastic album cuts but any of his music that I have heard I found to be very bland and unappealing. He's not someone that I have any respect for as a singer or songwriter. So, at least for me, he doesn't have any "cred."

Prince has certainly made some bad music and questionable decisions regarding the artists that he has worked with but his highs are in a completely different leage than anything Richard Marx has even dreamed about as far as music goes. Of course as a Prince fan I am biased but I think it is fair to say that Prince has a sense of adventure and experimentation in his music that Richard Marx does not. To be fair I'm not sure if Richard Marx ever aspired to anything more than crafting catchy pop songs and on that level he succeeded.

Well cred is cred, there is a niche for writing a "pop song" or a rock song, Richards first 7 top 10 hits only 1 was a ballad, so he is more of a rock writer, its easy to dismiss as nothing, but we cant praise one writer who im sorry, but im a Prince fan, and the guy has written his fair share of corn ball songs and many albums of material that DONT hold up, mainly Emancipation which i worshipped and now can only play about 4 songs because of its really bad production and lyrics. But again these are two guys that are doing different things, i feel Richard is more of a writer because he has written for more varied people and different types of songs, NO ONE unless TOLD knew he wrote "Dance With my Father", Prince to me is not "varied" enough in his work with others, this is why all of his proteges for the most part are forgettable, because its just another Prince, its like when we complain about a "beatmaker" using the same beats over and over, Prince has had a fair share of this himself, and no artist he has produced has ever really had an identity outside of HIM for the most part. So we can go back and forth because the two are not doing the same stuff, but to dismiss "ballads" and "pop songs" is foolish and seems to be what i hear alot of BUT i dont see anyone knowing how to craft good pop songs/ballads, Richard and maybe Lionel Richie come to mind, but thats about it.

Timmy84 said:

kitbradley said:

Hey, I remember Ms. Piggy singing up a storm on several "Muppets" episodes. Honestly, I think she would have made a more qualified judge than Ellen.

A stray cat in an alley would be a better Judge on Music than Ellen. But on the AI point it should be noted that Richard wasnt and didnt "knock" a singer on that show, he knocked the techniques, the arrangements and actually felt bad for the singers because nothing was there for them to learn.

MickyDolenz said:

alphastreet said:

I felt like it was an insult to people like the J5 and artists who had to work their way up from rags to riches.

Well a long time ago there was a program called The Gong Show.

lastdecember said:

Timmy84 said:

A stray cat in an alley would be a better Judge on Music than Ellen. But on the AI point it should be noted that Richard wasnt and didnt "knock" a singer on that show, he knocked the techniques, the arrangements and actually felt bad for the singers because nothing was there for them to learn.

And from what I can tell, neither of them have learned anything.

Timmy84 said:

lastdecember said:

A stray cat in an alley would be a better Judge on Music than Ellen. But on the AI point it should be noted that Richard wasnt and didnt "knock" a singer on that show, he knocked the techniques, the arrangements and actually felt bad for the singers because nothing was there for them to learn.

And from what I can tell, neither of them have learned anything.

Nope as he said the show is just...boring, it goes nowhere no one learns, the show teaches you how to sing LOUD, thinnkng that LOUD is better, and i know we all have said that constantly on this forum about Alicia Keys, Xtina and Beyonce in countless threads.

lastdecember said:

Timmy84 said:

And from what I can tell, neither of them have learned anything.

Nope as he said the show is just...boring, it goes nowhere no one learns, the show teaches you how to sing LOUD, thinnkng that LOUD is better, and i know we all have said that constantly on this forum about Alicia Keys, Xtina and Beyonce in countless threads.

Yep.

American Idol is ready for the GONG!

lastdecember said:

rialb said:

Steven Tyler is in his '60s and the kids seem to like him.

If the network and producers think a change of course will garner higher ratings they will absolutely change course.

N'Sync isn't all of a sudden shit, they were shit right out of the gate.

We will just have to agree to disagree about Mr. Marx. Maybe he has some fantastic album cuts but any of his music that I have heard I found to be very bland and unappealing. He's not someone that I have any respect for as a singer or songwriter. So, at least for me, he doesn't have any "cred."

Prince has certainly made some bad music and questionable decisions regarding the artists that he has worked with but his highs are in a completely different leage than anything Richard Marx has even dreamed about as far as music goes. Of course as a Prince fan I am biased but I think it is fair to say that Prince has a sense of adventure and experimentation in his music that Richard Marx does not. To be fair I'm not sure if Richard Marx ever aspired to anything more than crafting catchy pop songs and on that level he succeeded.

Well cred is cred, there is a niche for writing a "pop song" or a rock song, Richards first 7 top 10 hits only 1 was a ballad, so he is more of a rock writer, its easy to dismiss as nothing, but we cant praise one writer who im sorry, but im a Prince fan, and the guy has written his fair share of corn ball songs and many albums of material that DONT hold up, mainly Emancipation which i worshipped and now can only play about 4 songs because of its really bad production and lyrics. But again these are two guys that are doing different things, i feel Richard is more of a writer because he has written for more varied people and different types of songs, NO ONE unless TOLD knew he wrote "Dance With my Father", Prince to me is not "varied" enough in his work with others, this is why all of his proteges for the most part are forgettable, because its just another Prince, its like when we complain about a "beatmaker" using the same beats over and over, Prince has had a fair share of this himself, and no artist he has produced has ever really had an identity outside of HIM for the most part. So we can go back and forth because the two are not doing the same stuff, but to dismiss "ballads" and "pop songs" is foolish and seems to be what i hear alot of BUT i dont see anyone knowing how to craft good pop songs/ballads, Richard and maybe Lionel Richie come to mind, but thats about it.

Well, as far as outside productions I think it is fair to say that Prince doesn't play well with others. When Prince "produces" a song for another artist you usually get a Prince song with someone else's vocals dubbed onto it. Still, I would argue that if you just look at the songs themselves that there is an awful lot of diversity in the songs he has given to other artists.

I have to plead ignorance regarding Richard Marx' songs for others but a quick glance at his wikipedia page shows that the songs are often produced by someone other than him. That might partially account for the greater diversity as far as the sound of the songs is concerned. I would also guess that Richard is much better about serving the wants and needs of the people he works with. I could be wrong but I can see him sitting down with somebody and asking what they like and don't like about a song and working together to try and improve it. With Prince I am guessing that doesn't happen.

I really don't think I can find common ground with someone who can only listen to four songs from Emancipation. That one is in my top five!

So glad he said what he did about Randy Jackson... he was spot on with his comments. Randy is a monster musician, and I hate the fact that so many people don't take him seriously. If they only knew...

Not sure when Richard Marx last watched Idol, but I don't think the 'loud singing = good to the average viewer' really applies anymore. I guess he's referring to the big voiced diva types like J Hud. Doesn't seem that Idol or it's viewers support those types of singers anymore...most don't make it past Hollywood week anymore. Instead, we get people like Paul Macdonald and Scotty McCreery.

I don't think Idol is all bad, though. Sometimes I love it and sometimes I hate it. I love hearing great singers sing...in any environment--cover songs, originals, whatever. Doesn't always have to be about artistry for ME. I just like a great vocal. However, I haven't really been feeling any of these contestants for a couple of seasons now. I miss the days of Kimberly Locke, Clay Aiken and Ruben.

The show works 4 what it is..............

lastdecember said:

rialb said:

Sure, more money than the winners but what about the judges? You are comparing apples and oranges.

Why would he want to be a judge? I mean outside of Randy Jackson and maybe Simon who has cred to criticize?? JLO and PAULA talking about how people sing?? really?? How about we get actual singers to judge, lets see what happens then. and lets not talk about ELLEN judging, whats next Ms. Piggy

[Edited 5/21/11 16:59pm]

word! when AI first came out and it was announced that paula was going 2 be a judge i thought "how can someone who was accused of not singing on her tracks and is more apt 2 judge a dancing show be a singing judge?" and now there is jlo who has never really toured and has weak vocals that are studio enhanced.

richard marx has a valid point about the songs and the singers themselves, yes some have singing abilities but they need 2 sell me on showmanship, stage presence. being a singer and having 2 hit this high note all the time just 2 prove they have range is annoying. not every song has 2 be about singing loud. it's about emotion that u convey and resignates with your audience.

ooh u can hit a camera angle spot! but u'll just stand in one spot. lawd. as 4 song selections, if u look at the criticism some judges say 2 the contestants about wrong song choice, well what are they offered 2 sing? it goes like this AI is really a glossified talent show. okay u can sing gladys knight and the pips song, what can u do on ur own?

of all the "winners" of AI who really has become a star outside of kelly clarkson and daughtery? and he didn't even win

alphastreet said:

He sounds like me when I was 19 and the show came out, I was being obnoxious about it too and noticed everyone was shrieking like Christina Aguilera and still is, and I felt like it was an insult to people like the J5 and artists who had to work their way up from rags to riches. But I did audition for Idol where I'm at, at some point and made it to the judge round, which I failed out of stage fright and cause I felt restricted from being myself and thinking I won't fit their cookie cutter image....so that might make me a bit of a hypocrite, I did it to see how far I would get.

But I must admit, Kelly and Jordin have some really nice songs, and that Sanjaya was cute no matter what anyone says

Last but not least, Richard is awesome.

[Edited 5/21/11 19:11pm]

can u elaborate on the song choices u were giving or could u just go in and sing whatever u wanted to do?

i had a friend who auditioned and she can really sing but they told her that clay and ruben set the bar so high ..yet they found willam hung

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Technically, you could say that places like the Apollo Theater are an old version, although not televised (unless you count the 1980's Showtime At The Apollo program). Even the old "rate-a-record" on American Bandstand is sort of the same thing.

"Showtime" was still raw because judges didn't critique you: the audience did. That's really WHAT should matter. Believe me if someone like, Sanjaya, or Justin Guarnini had come on the Apollo stage, there wouldn't be no Paula Abdul to "groom" them with comments about how nice they look, no Randy Jackson to tell them, "you need to work on your steelo, dawg", no crying girl in the middle of the audience, no cards saying WE LOVE YOU XXX. No you'll have an audience that will BOO you off the stage, you hear this big siren, and this dude comes out in a clown outfit dancing your untalented ass off the stage. With American Bandstand, they mix the style and substance so if you wasn't shit they let you know it too.

American Idol ass-kisses you until you do something that pisses them off.

yes they would boo people ..but they also booed luther 3 times ..just saying

one other thing that bothers me about idol is ..it's okay 2 have a country station but r and b singers and hip hop artists aren't even allowed.

it will be interesting 2 see what x factor provides.

i haven't watched the voice but i might check it out