Marrk said:

Emancipation89 said:

No way! MJJC is more like, "Everyone around Michael can go f themselves", "Poor Michael, never had anyone to fully trust", To a certain extend I do agree with these kind of statements and I don't think it's necessarily false but people there just go too far. Like during memorial service people gave so much shit to Brooke Shields for even being there... I find that MJ fans on Prince fan-site are much more logical and fair...kinda ironic lol

Shit, i just called Mike cowardly for the release structure of HIStory. Die hard fan but I always thought that. I could only get away from that here.

lol exactly...I think MJ fans here express what they really think of Michael more easily...I like that...

Emancipation89 said:

No way! MJJC is more like, "Everyone around Michael can go f themselves", "Poor Michael, never had anyone to fully trust", To a certain extend I do agree with these kind of statements and I don't think it's necessarily false but people there just go too far. Like during memorial service people gave so much shit to Brooke Shields for even being there... I find that MJ fans on Prince fan-site are much more logical and fair...kinda ironic lol

MJJC is like "Michael Jackson is the only performer that has ever existed, and all other acts are no good and have no talent." Or "Let's go stuff some silly online poll to make sure Mike wins, because 'so and so' is in no way superior to him." Or "Mike's children should be in some Fortress Of Solitude and isolated from the world, especially their evil cousins". Or "Can someone please erase the raps, Jermaine, Paul McCartney, Rockwell, Mick Jagger, etc. and post it because I don't wanna hear them, only Michael".

MickyDolenz said:

angel345 said:

MJ was an perfectionist so therefore, I do not see him dropping an album that soon.

Between 1969 and 1980, there was at least an album each year (including Jackson/J5). In some cases, there were multiple albums a year. Before the mid 80's most acts released an album a year. Thriller started the trend of releasing a lot of singles from an album, when before the average album generally had 2 (maybe 3) singles. Steely Dan were notorious perfectionists and even they released albums often.

wasn't there a time they ended up recording a whole album over, because they heard one mistake in a song or something?

MickyDolenz said:

JoeTyler said:

New Jack was already old by 92 standards...

Although there were a few hits on the pop charts, New Jack Swing as a genre never really crossed over to mainstream audiences and was mainly popular on R&B radio. That's where it had been played since around 1986 and was oversaturated by 1991 and was just about over. The brothers (2300 Jackson Street) and Randy & The Gypsys released New Jack records 2 years before Dangerous was released. I think that is one of the reasons Dangerous was more popular overseas than in the USA. New Jack wasn't really an international thing, so it was a new sound in a way.

to me though, dangerous wasn't a straight new jack record. which is why i liked it. it had classical, traditional ballads... vocal percussions... vocal layering done in a way not done before in the genre- because michael did his thang on it. again, genre-wise, the album may have been late, but it was right on time. i was thoroughly disturbed by the new jack trend. dangerous was the best thing riley ever worked on.

Marrk said:

MJJstudent said:

he was highly disappointed whenever he didn't hit 'thriller' sales, even though nothing in the history of music hit that much..

Post an MJ quote saying as much, any article or video. No '100million sales note sellotaped to a mirror' nonsense either. The whole internet is at your fingers.

There isn't one. Keep learning 'student'.

the funny thing, i actually HAVE seen quotes, over the years, because i recall people harping on about it to him. so he'd be sort of diplomatic about it, talking about how he doesn't like to look to the past, but the reason he wasn't selling as much was because of this, this and that. i've seen him compare 'invincible' to thriller in the press at several points. he specifically stated that 'invincible was better than thriller, and that the lack of sales was due to sony's non-promotion of it. i need to find it. it may be that dileo was stating something (around the time of 'bad'), but i remember reading in an old issue of rolling stone, or one of the industry magazines, where michael spoke about wanting to reach higher than 'thriller's sales'. i saw an interview where he spoke of this too.

and marrk, there is no need to be condescending. the point of a student is to continue learning, as well as questioning your teachers. the thing is, what makes you think michael would NOT be disappointed in not reaching those sales?

and you find me articles which counters michael not stating his concern with sales. he was a marketing guy. of COURSE he was concerned with sales. this is why some of those hoaxes WERE made up.

Marrk said:

Unholyalliance said:

So...that wasn't a true story?

I always thought that at some point he stopped caring and just wanted to release music for people to hear. I mean...obviously if he wanted to make Thriller-like sales then HIStory just isn't the way to go you know?

[Edited 4/29/11 15:56pm]

That story should be filed along side 'Elephant man's bones' and 'hyperbaric chamber'. It really should. His people (Frank) pushed a lot of crap into the publics consciousness back then and it's been repeated over an over. Seems like some stuck. Myth = Reality.

Your point about HIStory is valid. I hated the hits being attached to it at the time. I thought that was off. Cowardly even. On both Michael's and Sony's part.

He should have said fuck it, this is my album and that's my statement (and just released disc 2.)

[Edited 4/29/11 16:53pm]

again... how do you know this is the case? if indeed dileo made this up then it was a horrible marketing scheme in my opinion. where is the proof this was created?

granted, everything that came out of michael's mouth was not true, but why would michael's concern about sales after thriller not be true? i'll try to find the articles for you... i have physical copies of articles which speak about concern for sales. i have to dig through.

Marrk said:

Your point about HIStory is valid. I hated the hits being attached to it at the time. I thought that was off. Cowardly even. On both Michael's and Sony's part.

He should have said fuck it, this is my album and that's my statement (and just released disc 2.)

[Edited 4/29/11 16:53pm]

i do agree with you there... i don't thiink he was cowardly for doing it, but i don't even listen to the first half of the album. the thing is, there are SO many people i've known to buy the album, and never TOUCHED the second half, until 2009. i would talk with people about the second half, and people who had the album would not even know what i was talking about.

so again, from a marketing perspective, putting the hits on there was a smart move. this is how they captured the american market, who by 1994 thought michael was off his rocker. it's outside of the u.s. in particular, who followed the second half of the album... which is so funny, considering the album discussed issues specific to u.s. socio-politics.

Unholyalliance said:

Off The Wall arrive TWO years late. There was already an anti-disco movement going on in the States as the time & disco was old by '79 standards. Had it been released in 1977 it would have been JUST AS successful as Thriller...

The question is: Unless her titties are popping out of her clothes in front of millions of people would the press even care?

She seems to live a pretty quiet life as I don't see or hear about her much, yet, then again, that could be for one of two reasons. Either her life is pretty drama free, or not enough of the buying public really just don't give a damn.

in terms of off the wall, i see it more of a jazz album than a dance album. it's classic quincy jones. i don't ever recall people stating patti austin's work with jones around that time was disco-related.

with janet, again, i don't know much about her. granted, i stopped paying attention to her when she began to take off the clothes (after rhythm nation), but i do know she's seen as a shy person.

babybugz said:

Why is it that we have better discussions in this post than the Michael Sticky? I wish some in here migrated over to that post

because this is, for all intenmts and purposes, more of a general question, as opposed to the fandom page... whenever i post something in the 'anything and everything' thread about musical arrangements or production techniques, no one responds to it... it's more about posting pictures or talking about posthumous albums or whatever. i'm more into the technical aspects of michael's music (as well as discussing the socio-political aspects of his work) but that's not really something people want to discuss here... such is life.

babybugz said:

MickyDolenz said:

I never go in there because it's no different than MJJC, just a lot of gossip and "Jackson family sucks" griping. I don't wanna see negative stuff like that.

LOL I don’t either but it would be cool if you and some others bring nice discussions over there. Just a thought

I TRY!!! but it doesn't get a response. i just posted that before...

Emancipation89 said:

MickyDolenz said:

I never go in there because it's no different than MJJC, just a lot of gossip and "Jackson family sucks" griping. I don't wanna see negative stuff like that.

No way! MJJC is more like, "Everyone around Michael can go f themselves", "Poor Michael, never had anyone to fully trust", To a certain extend I do agree with these kind of statements and I don't think it's necessarily false but people there just go too far. Like during memorial service people gave so much shit to Brooke Shields for even being there... I find that MJ fans on Prince fan-site are much more logical and fair...kinda ironic lol

because in my experience of dealing with both the prince and michael communities; the prince community is far less judgmental and much more open-minded than many i have known in the michael community. prince people have been much more supportive of me, as a person who considers michael to be a teacher. michael people have been condescending to me. i can share many experiences...

alphastreet said:

MJJstudent said:

i think he liked the competition though... if she charted higher than him (if they were on the chart at the same time) it would be devestating to him, i'm sure. i mean, when she signed that $80 million virgin deal he had to top that. even if it was friendly competition it was still competition. and as usual, if his albums were falling on the charts he came out with some major event or film, which rocketed the album back to the top.

i'd say for invincible he should have waited to do the MSG shows, but that wasn't 100% his idea to do the shows in the first place; and then sony didn't really have much to do with the event. so it was a different situation that sony or some other sponsor backing your tour or film.

and it's interesting how, overall, janet had an easier time with the labels she's been on... like how she just split from def jam as soon as she joined them, with no major press drama (not like what went down between michael and sony, anyways). janet made more appearances that were not as grand as michael, so even though she is shy she seems better able to cope with how press works. i don't know much about janet; it's just a gague.

it would have been interesting to see him and janet collaborate more.

I read accounts at some point of michael being jealous of janet's Control success and being worried he won't do well with his next album, I think in magic and the madness and in some black women's magazine where they wrote an article about janet during the Velvet Rope era. But I also read in Magic and the Madness he was so proud of her for doing Rhythm Nation and saying The Knowledge was so good and asking why there was no melody. I didn't realize this till recently but the 1,2,3 in The Knowledge and Jam are the same I don't believe the jealousy story is true, although I think it did lead to friendly competition...and great minds, from the same family mind you, think alike. Even if there are slight Control influences during Bad, those Control-isms were inspired by Off The Wall, Thriller and the Jacksons tours very much. And in the music I hear mj, prince/minneapolis, funk, freestyle influences a lot.

I guess because Janet was a star and not a mega-mega star, she didn't have it as bad and she was raised differently from Michael a little. I also think doing things like marrying young and moving out young matured her and prepared her for life and Michael was too sheltered, both at home and living in the world's fishbowl.

i pretty much agree with everything you've said.

Emancipation89 said:

Marrk said:

Shit, i just called Mike cowardly for the release structure of HIStory. Die hard fan but I always thought that. I could only get away from that here.

lol exactly...I think MJ fans here express what they really think of Michael more easily...I like that...

not always in my experience... i've gotten grief for my views from michael folks...

MickyDolenz said:

Emancipation89 said:

No way! MJJC is more like, "Everyone around Michael can go f themselves", "Poor Michael, never had anyone to fully trust", To a certain extend I do agree with these kind of statements and I don't think it's necessarily false but people there just go too far. Like during memorial service people gave so much shit to Brooke Shields for even being there... I find that MJ fans on Prince fan-site are much more logical and fair...kinda ironic lol

MJJC is like "Michael Jackson is the only performer that has ever existed, and all other acts are no good and have no talent." Or "Let's go stuff some silly online poll to make sure Mike wins, because 'so and so' is in no way superior to him." Or "Mike's children should be in some Fortress Of Solitude and isolated from the world, especially their evil cousins". Or "Can someone please erase the raps, Jermaine, Paul McCartney, Rockwell, Mick Jagger, etc. and post it because I don't wanna hear them, only Michael".

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! well i'm glad i never really looked at this site...

allsmutaside said:

"THE POINT IS MUTE!" Nothing after the brilliance of Off The Wall matters.

I TOTALLY DISAGREE!! MJ ALWAYS MADE GOOD MUSIC....[to a certain extent]

babybugz said:

Why is it that we have better discussions in this post than the Michael Sticky? I wish some in here migrated over to that post

To answer your question: Because I can sometimes be awesome! Besides, I didn't want to post this in that sticky so it wouldn't get lost in all the other stuff.....[MJ Sticky? YEAH RIGHT!]

[Edited 4/30/11 4:40am]

bboy87 said:

MickyDolenz said:

I never go in there because it's no different than MJJC, just a lot of gossip and "Jackson family sucks" griping. I don't wanna see negative stuff like that.

I'm a mod at a MJ forum and I'm gonna make make a copycat thread of this subject there

Stealing my shine huh...at least tell who originally came up with it.

MJJstudent said:

MickyDolenz said:

Between 1969 and 1980, there was at least an album each year (including Jackson/J5). In some cases, there were multiple albums a year. Before the mid 80's most acts released an album a year. Thriller started the trend of releasing a lot of singles from an album, when before the average album generally had 2 (maybe 3) singles. Steely Dan were notorious perfectionists and even they released albums often.

wasn't there a time they ended up recording a whole album over, because they heard one mistake in a song or something?

If you noticed, he didn't drop too many albums in his solo career. That's just how he roll Wasn't it also a contractual thing to release that many albums in a year?

angel345 said:

MJJstudent said:

wasn't there a time they ended up recording a whole album over, because they heard one mistake in a song or something?

If you noticed, he didn't drop too many albums in his solo career. That's just how he roll Wasn't it also a contractual thing to release that many albums in a year?

Yep. Artists back then had no choice but to release albums every year, especially black artists, they had to work twice as hard (a semblance of that is still true today) to get the same level of fame other artists got. That's why the Jackson 5 hardly caught breaks. As much as Michael didn't have much of a life, neither did the other brothers despite having families, they were barely there because they had to work, work, work. Joseph and Berry pushed those boys.

Can we all agree that his major solo albums (Thriller being the exception) arrived one, two or EVEN three years late????

I mean

OTW: late 1978

Bad: early 1986

Dangerous: late 1990

History: late 1993

Invincible: 1999

[Edited 4/30/11 11:25am]

Timmy84 said:

angel345 said:

If you noticed, he didn't drop too many albums in his solo career. That's just how he roll Wasn't it also a contractual thing to release that many albums in a year?

Yep. Artists back then had no choice but to release albums every year, especially black artists, they had to work twice as hard (a semblance of that is still true today) to get the same level of fame other artists got. That's why the Jackson 5 hardly caught breaks. As much as Michael didn't have much of a life, neither did the other brothers despite having families, they were barely there because they had to work, work, work. Joseph and Berry pushed those boys.

I kinda figured it was contractual, and they worked them hard

angel345 said:

MJJstudent said:

wasn't there a time they ended up recording a whole album over, because they heard one mistake in a song or something?

If you noticed, he didn't drop too many albums in his solo career. That's just how he roll Wasn't it also a contractual thing to release that many albums in a year?

I'm sorry. I was referring to MJ, not Steve. I was responding to Micky

SoulAlive said:

MICHAEL JACKSON 'STATE OF SHOCK' (album release date: February 1985)

State Of Shock with Mick Jagger

Behind The Mask (Who Do You Love)

She's Trouble

Got The Hots

Much Too Soon

Hot Street

Nightline

Be Not Always

Don't Be Messin' Around

Remember This Night

I admit,I never heard the last track (lol) but let's assume it is a nice ballad to close the album.I only heard a snippet of "Don't Be Messin Around" but it has potential.

OK,the more I think about it,the more I realize that this would have been a weak album and not an appropriate follow-up to 'Thriller' (the biggest selling album of all time).But you get the idea...there were obviously alot of songs lying around,and Michael surely had some newly written tunes from 1984.It would have been easy for him to release an album in 1985,especially if 'Victory' had never happened.

SoulAlive said:

SoulAlive said:

MICHAEL JACKSON 'STATE OF SHOCK' (album release date: February 1985)

State Of Shock with Mick Jagger

Behind The Mask (Who Do You Love)

She's Trouble

Got The Hots

Much Too Soon

Hot Street

Nightline

Be Not Always

Don't Be Messin' Around

Remember This Night

I admit,I never heard the last track (lol) but let's assume it is a nice ballad to close the album.I only heard a snippet of "Don't Be Messin Around" but it has potential.

OK,the more I think about it,the more I realize that this would have been a weak album and not an appropriate follow-up to 'Thriller' (the biggest selling album of all time).But you get the idea...there were obviously alot of songs lying around,and Michael surely had some newly written tunes from 1984.It would have been easy for him to release an album in 1985,especially if 'Victory' had never happened.

yeah that track-list would've sucked due to the majority of them being outtakes from Thriller. As BBoy stated, THIS would have been the closest tracklist we would've gotten from an 1985 MJ album

Note: I added tracks 9-11 along with the years they were originally recorded

1. Hot Fever (original version of The Way You Make Me Feel) (1985)
2. Tomboy (1985)
3. What You Do To Me (1985)
4. The Price Of Fame (1985)
5. Dirty Diana (1983)

6. Al Capone Smooth Criminal (original with Roger Troutman) (1985)

7. Another Part Of Me (1985)

8. We Are Here To Change The World (1985)

9. Love Never Felt So Good (1984)

10. Scared of the Moon (1985)

11. Attitude (1984)

MJJstudent said:

MickyDolenz said:

Between 1969 and 1980, there was at least an album each year (including Jackson/J5). In some cases, there were multiple albums a year. Before the mid 80's most acts released an album a year. Thriller started the trend of releasing a lot of singles from an album, when before the average album generally had 2 (maybe 3) singles. Steely Dan were notorious perfectionists and even they released albums often.

wasn't there a time they ended up recording a whole album over, because they heard one mistake in a song or something?

I think that was Boston. I heard that the leader Tom Scholz once spent 6 months just to record a drum track on one song.

angel345 said:

MJJstudent said:

wasn't there a time they ended up recording a whole album over, because they heard one mistake in a song or something?

If you noticed, he didn't drop too many albums in his solo career. That's just how he roll Wasn't it also a contractual thing to release that many albums in a year?

You have to remember albums pre-CD were much shorter than a lot of today's albums as a record couldn't hold much time. That's why in a lot of cases, record companies can combine 2 old albums on one CD.

ViintageJunkiie said:

SoulAlive said:

OK,the more I think about it,the more I realize that this would have been a weak album and not an appropriate follow-up to 'Thriller' (the biggest selling album of all time).But you get the idea...there were obviously alot of songs lying around,and Michael surely had some newly written tunes from 1984.It would have been easy for him to release an album in 1985,especially if 'Victory' had never happened.

yeah that track-list would've sucked due to the majority of them being outtakes from Thriller. As BBoy stated, THIS would have been the closest tracklist we would've gotten from an 1985 MJ album

Note: I added tracks 9-11 along with the years they were originally recorded

1. Hot Fever (original version of The Way You Make Me Feel) (1985)
2. Tomboy (1985)
3. What You Do To Me (1985)
4. The Price Of Fame (1985)
5. Dirty Diana (1983)

6. Al Capone Smooth Criminal (original with Roger Troutman) (1985)

7. Another Part Of Me (1985)

8. We Are Here To Change The World (1985)

9. Love Never Felt So Good (1984)

10. Scared of the Moon (1985)

11. Attitude (1984)

The original tracklist you had wasn't that bad. Remove "She's Trouble" & "Nightline", replace those two tracks with something else & it's a dope album. Think about the time period, That album would have been another hit

gunner82 said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

yeah that track-list would've sucked due to the majority of them being outtakes from Thriller. As BBoy stated, THIS would have been the closest tracklist we would've gotten from an 1985 MJ album

Note: I added tracks 9-11 along with the years they were originally recorded

1. Hot Fever (original version of The Way You Make Me Feel) (1985)
2. Tomboy (1985)
3. What You Do To Me (1985)
4. The Price Of Fame (1985)
5. Dirty Diana (1983)

6. Al Capone Smooth Criminal (original with Roger Troutman) (1985)

7. Another Part Of Me (1985)

8. We Are Here To Change The World (1985)

9. Love Never Felt So Good (1984)

10. Scared of the Moon (1985)

11. Attitude (1984)

The original tracklist you had wasn't that bad. Remove "She's Trouble" & "Nightline", replace those two tracks with something else & it's a dope album. Think about the time period, That album would have been another hit

OOPs! I was reffering to Soulalive'e tracklist [my bad]. With your tracklist, I'd take off 'WAHTCTW' & 'SOTM'. But honestly, some of the songs you have up here we've never heard, so therefore, we have no clue if they are good songs....

gunner82 said:

gunner82 said:

The original tracklist you had wasn't that bad. Remove "She's Trouble" & "Nightline", replace those two tracks with something else & it's a dope album. Think about the time period, That album would have been another hit

OOPs! I was reffering to Soulalive'e tracklist [my bad]. With your tracklist, I'd take off 'WAHTCTW' & 'SOTM'. But honestly, some of the songs you have up here we've never heard, so therefore, we have no clue if they are good songs....

The tracks that SoulAlive posted were tracks recorded FOR Thriller, 1981-82 outtakes. The songs Bboy, along with myself, posted, these were songs that were recorded IN 1985.

ViintageJunkiie said:

gunner82 said:

OOPs! I was reffering to Soulalive'e tracklist [my bad]. With your tracklist, I'd take off 'WAHTCTW' & 'SOTM'. But honestly, some of the songs you have up here we've never heard, so therefore, we have no clue if they are good songs....

The tracks that SoulAlive posted were tracks recorded FOR Thriller, 1981-82 outtakes. The songs Bboy, along with myself, posted, these were songs that were recorded IN 1985.

But I'm reffering to if 'Bad" remained what it was. I wasn't referring to releasing 'Bad" earlier. Somebody else started that...I'm talking a an album inbetween both of those two albums in the exact state there in....[just another album inbetween]