I'm having trouble deciding a topic for a presentation for my American Music class and wanted to run this by you guys. I found a post from Bboy in thread a couple years ago about hip hop ruining black music and he posted something someone said on another board;

My mistake, it wasn't Scorpion. It was another poster named OldPro
Here it is:

Prince did more to destroy black music than any other figure of his time

First off most people on here know I think Prince is one of the greatest artists of the past 50 years. I can't think of anyone that has made as many songs that I have enjoyed as much as I have his. If I listed my top 10 concerts ever, the 6 Prince shows I've seen would all be there. That said ..... Prince was NOT good for black music people.

I think a lot of what made him great also made him destructive. His creativity and confidence turned him into a sort of musical demigod. He didn't need a band to create and record with because in his mind nobody could play his music as well as he could. He didn't use background singers for the most part for the same reason. Prince was the show, standing above all others and he wanted to make sure you didn't forget that. Now of course Prince wasn't the first artist to feel this way. But he was the first that had the technology to isolate himself creatively the way he did. When you have the talent and ideas Prince did at the time, this isn't a bad thing in and of itself. The problem is, it inspired less creative and original people to follow in his footsteps. The end result was a parade of mediocre singer/songwriter/producer wannabes that would have been much better severed (creatively) being part of a larger collective. Just because you can make music by yourself doesn't mean you should. Of course existing bands also took note of what Prince was doing. They started cutting the "fat" and in doing so, knocked over the first domino in death of the black band.

As I said, Prince wasn't the first artist to have an ego. But he was the first to go to the lengths he did to keep from being shown up. One need to look no further than his first two side projects ... The Time and Vanity 6.... for prove of his obsessive narcissism.

Flyte Tyme by everyone's account was the baddest band in Minneapolis. So what did Prince do when he signed them? Fired their lead singer (Alexander O'Neal) and replaced them with his drummer friend Morris Day. The fact Morris couldn't sing meant nothing to Prince. As a matter of fact in his mind this was a good thing. This meant one less threat to Prince. But even this wasn't enough for him. Prince went into the studio and recorded almost all (if not all, there are various opinions on this) the music and background vocals for the first Time album. Think about this for a minute. You sign a band and then record an album under their name with your friend who you made lead singer. But that didn't matter to P. He was selling an alternate image of himself with the group. He wasn't producing in a way that would bring out the creativity in his artist, he was acting as a puppet master with his hand guiding every sight and sound associate with them. They weren't artist, they were props. Never was this truer than with his next project Vanity 6. Never before in black music history had there been a group that had this much style over substance. None of the girls could sing ...not even in a serviceable way really ... play any instruments or even dance. With Vanity Prince created the video chick before the video era even really kicked off. Once again, Prince was the star and his project was his window dressing. With Vanity 6 Prince proved you could market and sell records even though the "artist" had little to no talent. It would be foolish to think the industry didn't take note of this. This knowledge along with the emergence of the music video formed a powerful one two punch that marginalized vocal talent.

The interesting thing in all of this is how Prince slowly reverted back to more "traditional" ways as his creative tank started to run dry. Now days he loves to talk about "real music" and sing the praises of the funk and jazz stars of the past. He basks in the spotlight as the symbol of a by gone era. The last of his kind. And once again Prince is the show. And once again, Prince got exactly what he wanted.

I was wondering if you include Madonna and MJ into the equation could a fair argument be made that from a musical standpoint there haven't been any new groundbreaking innovations in popular/mainstream music. You can hear the growth from music of the 50s to the 60s to the 70s and into the 80s. But what's Justin Timberlake or Bieber doing now that MJ didn't do similarly to things Prince did in his music that James or Sly didn't do?

[Edited 4/10/11 20:25pm]

I remember reading this on Okayplayer and posting it here soon after

OldPro made some points that made me think when I read it

MajesticOne89 said:

I'm having trouble deciding a topic for a presentation for my American Music class and wanted to run this by you guys. I found a post from Bboy in thread a couple years ago about hip hop ruining black music and he posted something someone said on another board;

My mistake, it wasn't Scorpion. It was another poster named OldPro
Here it is:

Prince did more to destroy black music than any other figure of his time

First off most people on here know I think Prince is one of the greatest artists of the past 50 years. I can't think of anyone that has made as many songs that I have enjoyed as much as I have his. If I listed my top 10 concerts ever, the 6 Prince shows I've seen would all be there. That said ..... Prince was NOT good for black music people.

I think a lot of what made him great also made him destructive. His creativity and confidence turned him into a sort of musical demigod. He didn't need a band to create and record with because in his mind nobody could play his music as well as he could. He didn't use background singers for the most part for the same reason. Prince was the show, standing above all others and he wanted to make sure you didn't forget that. Now of course Prince wasn't the first artist to feel this way. But he was the first that had the technology to isolate himself creatively the way he did. When you have the talent and ideas Prince did at the time, this isn't a bad thing in and of itself. The problem is, it inspired less creative and original people to follow in his footsteps. The end result was a parade of mediocre singer/songwriter/producer wannabes that would have been much better severed (creatively) being part of a larger collective. Just because you can make music by yourself doesn't mean you should. Of course existing bands also took note of what Prince was doing. They started cutting the "fat" and in doing so, knocked over the first domino in death of the black band.

As I said, Prince wasn't the first artist to have an ego. But he was the first to go to the lengths he did to keep from being shown up. One need to look no further than his first two side projects ... The Time and Vanity 6.... for prove of his obsessive narcissism.

Flyte Tyme by everyone's account was the baddest band in Minneapolis. So what did Prince do when he signed them? Fired their lead singer (Alexander O'Neal) and replaced them with his drummer friend Morris Day. The fact Morris couldn't sing meant nothing to Prince. As a matter of fact in his mind this was a good thing. This meant one less threat to Prince. But even this wasn't enough for him. Prince went into the studio and recorded almost all (if not all, there are various opinions on this) the music and background vocals for the first Time album. Think about this for a minute. You sign a band and then record an album under their name with your friend who you made lead singer. But that didn't matter to P. He was selling an alternate image of himself with the group. He wasn't producing in a way that would bring out the creativity in his artist, he was acting as a puppet master with his hand guiding every sight and sound associate with them. They weren't artist, they were props. Never was this truer than with his next project Vanity 6. Never before in black music history had there been a group that had this much style over substance. None of the girls could sing ...not even in a serviceable way really ... play any instruments or even dance. With Vanity Prince created the video chick before the video era even really kicked off. Once again, Prince was the star and his project was his window dressing. With Vanity 6 Prince proved you could market and sell records even though the "artist" had little to no talent. It would be foolish to think the industry didn't take note of this. This knowledge along with the emergence of the music video formed a powerful one two punch that marginalized vocal talent.

The interesting thing in all of this is how Prince slowly reverted back to more "traditional" ways as his creative tank started to run dry. Now days he loves to talk about "real music" and sing the praises of the funk and jazz stars of the past. He basks in the spotlight as the symbol of a by gone era. The last of his kind. And once again Prince is the show. And once again, Prince got exactly what he wanted.

I was wondering if you include Madonna and MJ into the equation could a fair argument be made that from a musical standpoint there haven't been any new groundbreaking innovations in popular/mainstream music. You can hear the growth from music of the 50s to the 60s to the 70s and into the 80s. But what's Justin Timberlake or Bieber doing now that MJ didn't do similarly to things Prince did in his music that James or Sly didn't do?

I think you can put Michael and Madonna into the equation also

I don’t know if they stunted it but I feel they help making a good image a factor which is pretty much what people prefer these days. Musically they was good to me *shrugs*

maybe they set the bar too high. those following have been breaking their necks trying to be the next Madonna, Prince, or MJ.

CHIC0 said:

maybe they set the bar too high. those following have been breaking their necks trying to be the next Madonna, Prince, or MJ.

I think thats the problem no one is allowed to be original anymore they have to fit into pre formed sterotypes. Also the industry killed itself which I think has more to do with the pitiful state of pop music.

oh please. How many people do you see who are trying to copy prince by learning multiple instruments and producing their own records? Almost no one

mainstream music is wrecked because the companies promote the "flavour of the month" artist/s. These soilly boybands and girlbands thst disappear after a few years. real musicians just dont get contracts

RECORD LABELS stunted the growth, not Prince, not Madonna and not Michael.

People have really short memories. Go back to school and learn about the same pre-fab shit that came out of the 50s and 60s. Learn about the relegating of the black band to studio sessions. etc.

And then of course, after that comes people to smash that stereotype. And they did and do. Sly Stone, Clinton, Fishbone, and on.

The customers destroy the business by stealing, period.

hhhhdmt said:

oh please. How many people do you see who are trying to copy prince by learning multiple instruments and producing their own records? Almost no one

mainstream music is wrecked because the companies promote the "flavour of the month" artist/s. These soilly boybands and girlbands thst disappear after a few years. real musicians just dont get contracts

I don't think that was really the premise. Prince helped kickstart the DIY movement in R&B. It went from playing all the instruments, writing, producing, and performing everything to people just making beats.

CHIC0 said:

maybe they set the bar too high. those following have been breaking their necks trying to be the next Madonna, Prince, or MJ.

That sounds like your blaming them for being as talented as they were/are. The bar should ALWAYS be set at a higher level, this gives you something to shoot for. The problem is, while there MAY be people who are just as talented as those you mentioned, nobody wants to take the time to study and hone in on their craft. They are in it for the quick buck, and when I say "they", I am talking about both, the artist and record company. If there is anybody that has stunned the growth of Pop/Mainstream music, I would have to say it would be, the record companies. They are the one's who have choosen to take the low-road and shortcuts, when it comes to finding and grooming talent.

I think that OldPro suffers from Prince's biggest stan ever and it hinders their ability to see sometimes. Especially since they're so blinded by their unconditional love from Prince that they can absolve everyone else and actual history from the equation about what's going on in the music industry today.

I highly doubt that Prince was the first person to do this in the music industry, ever. He's not the first person to screw someone over. I don't know if he is, truly, the first solo act to do things all by himself or he was just also inspired by many of the acts who did so before him as well. I'm also not terribly sure that what he did impacted the music industry so much that it now it's still following that lead now, especially in our modern times. I just know this: the music industry is a business model. It looks to cut costs whenever possible and it follows what sells. I don't see a lot of today's artists being entirely as DIY as Prince is. I'm sure that there are some, but not sure if all of them are just 'Prince inspired' when technology has just made it a lot easier to do this for everybody. Image & style before substance isn't something that was entirely new to the 80s and Prince wasn't the only person to ever introduce that concept to the modern world.

That entire post just seems like the rantings and ravings of a huge Prince stan.

Unholyalliance said:

I think that OldPro suffers from Prince's biggest stan ever and it hinders their ability to see sometimes. Especially since they're so blinded by their unconditional love from Prince that they can absolve everyone else and actual history from the equation about what's going on in the music industry today.

I highly doubt that Prince was the first person to do this in the music industry, ever. He's not the first person to screw someone over. I don't know if he is, truly, the first solo act to do things all by himself or he was just also inspired by many of the acts who did so before him as well. I'm also not terribly sure that what he did impacted the music industry so much that it now it's still following that lead now, especially in our modern times. I just know this: the music industry is a business model. It looks to cut costs whenever possible and it follows what sells. I don't see a lot of today's artists being entirely as DIY as Prince is. I'm sure that there are some, but not sure if all of them are just 'Prince inspired' when technology has just made it a lot easier to do this for everybody. Image & style before substance isn't something that was entirely new to the 80s and Prince wasn't the only person to ever introduce that concept to the modern world.

That entire post just seems like the rantings and ravings of a huge Prince stan.

OldPro is a huge Prince fan but he's not a stan The essay is praising but also criticizing Prince., it's basically saying while P is a genius (nobody can dispute that), it's resulted in some not so great things for black music as a whole

Although Prince was a one man show, it inspired people 2 ways, it inspired them to do it all themselves but at the same time, it also inspired many to be these singer/songwriter/producer that don't have the talent/originality/focus that he had. People like The-Dream, Timbaland, and many others are part of this category


Vanity 6 is another example. They were more style over substance and many follow the V6 blueprint. Pussycat Dolls, Electrik Red, Danity Kane. OldPro's argument is with V6, Prince helped create the "Video girl" model that so many follow today

[Edited 4/9/11 7:49am]

bboy87 said:

OldPro is a huge Prince fan but he's not a stan (1)The essay is praising but also criticizing Prince., it's basically saying while P is a genius (nobody can dispute that), it's resulted in some not so great things for black music as a whole

(2)Although Prince was a one man show, it inspired people 2 ways, it inspired them to do it all themselves but at the same time, it also inspired many to be these singer/songwriter/producer that don't have the talent/originality/focus that he had. People like The-Dream, Timbaland, and many others are part of this category


Vanity 6 is another example. (3)They were more style over substance and many follow the V6 blueprint. Pussycat Dolls, Electrik Red, Danity Kane. OldPro's argument is with V6, Prince helped create the "Video girl" model that so many follow today

[Edited 4/9/11 7:49am]

1. Yes I know this. I was saying that OldPro acting like Prince was the cause and end to it all as if no one else is to blame is sheer proof of how big their standom is.

2. I just wonder how much of that was Prince and how much of that were artists such as The Beatles, Bob Dylan, and etc. also. As to which I'm more than sure Prince was completely influenced by as well.

3. But what about all the other cute girl groups that came before them? One being the Mary Jane Girls? If you are going to cite the Pussycat Dolls, why not just also cite The Spice Girls influence on all future girl groups as well since it seems that they are also follwing that model as well as everyone else since it is what sells? Girl groups, in general, don't have very unattractive members. Prince wasn't the first person to realize this. I do credit Prince for further influencing the video vixen that has appeared in many videos though, not necessarily the style over substance in girl groups. Something like that is as old as time itself.

Uhm, no.

Having one person do something in no way forces others to do the same. Prince influenced a lot of great one man band type of projects and made a lot of young guys want to learn how to play instruments and not just sing / rap. MJ emphasized how important it is to pay attention to the quality of your overall act and have an overarching theme to your products.

Feel free to blame Madonna out of the three.

This thread is a bit like blaming Toblerone for the Mars bar.

prince is not the first one man band. Period. Stevie wonder was there before prince. Sly stone did plenty of one man stuff too

I mean come on. How many of the mainstream "artists" play one instrument, let alone a dozen like prince does? How many even dedicate their lives to playing just one? They are not trying to be prince

Besides its the record companies that do this. They know the more talented an artist is, the more demanding he/she is going to be (maybe not all the time but alot of the time). Therefore they promote singers that disappear after a while, that dont even know how to write songs. They replace the flavour of the month by the next.

Blaming Prince, MJ and Madonna for this decline is comical. If mainstream singers are really trying to be like prince, then they would be dedicating their time to master several instruments like prince has. They dont. Many of them dont play even one. And they rely on producers and other songwriters heavily while prince has written over 90 percent of his best songs by himself

[Edited 4/9/11 8:29am]

shorttrini said:

CHIC0 said:

maybe they set the bar too high. those following have been breaking their necks trying to be the next Madonna, Prince, or MJ.

That sounds like your blaming them for being as talented as they were/are. The bar should ALWAYS be set at a higher level, this gives you something to shoot for. The problem is, while there MAY be people who are just as talented as those you mentioned, nobody wants to take the time to study and hone in on their craft. They are in it for the quick buck, and when I say "they", I am talking about both, the artist and record company. If there is anybody that has stunned the growth of Pop/Mainstream music, I would have to say it would be, the record companies. They are the one's who have choosen to take the low-road and shortcuts, when it comes to finding and grooming talent.

no i'm not blaming them. the exact opposite. wtf??

I'd love this post to be in Prince music & more (again) I could just smell the smoke.

novabrkr said:

This thread is a bit like blaming Toblerone for the Mars bar.

Or blaming Ronald McDonald for being the cause of people eating 150 Big Macs a week at McDonalds.

Unholyalliance said:

bboy87 said:

OldPro is a huge Prince fan but he's not a stan (1)The essay is praising but also criticizing Prince., it's basically saying while P is a genius (nobody can dispute that), it's resulted in some not so great things for black music as a whole

(2)Although Prince was a one man show, it inspired people 2 ways, it inspired them to do it all themselves but at the same time, it also inspired many to be these singer/songwriter/producer that don't have the talent/originality/focus that he had. People like The-Dream, Timbaland, and many others are part of this category


Vanity 6 is another example. (3)They were more style over substance and many follow the V6 blueprint. Pussycat Dolls, Electrik Red, Danity Kane. OldPro's argument is with V6, Prince helped create the "Video girl" model that so many follow today

[Edited 4/9/11 7:49am]

1. Yes I know this. I was saying that OldPro acting like Prince was the cause and end to it all as if no one else is to blame is sheer proof of how big their standom is.

2. I just wonder how much of that was Prince and how much of that were artists such as The Beatles, Bob Dylan, and etc. also. As to which I'm more than sure Prince was completely influenced by as well.

3. But what about all the other cute girl groups that came before them? One being the Mary Jane Girls? If you are going to cite the Pussycat Dolls, why not just also cite The Spice Girls influence on all future girl groups as well since it seems that they are also follwing that model as well as everyone else since it is what sells? Girl groups, in general, don't have very unattractive members. Prince wasn't the first person to realize this. I do credit Prince for further influencing the video vixen that has appeared in many videos though, not necessarily the style over substance in girl groups. Something like that is as old as time itself.

Like people get on today's singers for copying another today's singer when no one wants to look at what happened decades before. I don't know what OldPro was trying to get at but he failed at trying to point the finger on the Purple One. Prince didn't stunt the growth of "mainstream music". If he had that kind of power OldPro claims he has, wouldn't you think he would've HELPED its growth?

Harlepolis said:

I'd love this post to be in Prince music & more (again) I could just smell the smoke.

Harlepolis said:

I'd love this post to be in Prince music & more (again) I could just smell the smoke.

Remember what happened last time?

Timmy84 said:

Unholyalliance said:

1. Yes I know this. I was saying that OldPro acting like Prince was the cause and end to it all as if no one else is to blame is sheer proof of how big their standom is.

2. I just wonder how much of that was Prince and how much of that were artists such as The Beatles, Bob Dylan, and etc. also. As to which I'm more than sure Prince was completely influenced by as well.

3. But what about all the other cute girl groups that came before them? One being the Mary Jane Girls? If you are going to cite the Pussycat Dolls, why not just also cite The Spice Girls influence on all future girl groups as well since it seems that they are also follwing that model as well as everyone else since it is what sells? Girl groups, in general, don't have very unattractive members. Prince wasn't the first person to realize this. I do credit Prince for further influencing the video vixen that has appeared in many videos though, not necessarily the style over substance in girl groups. Something like that is as old as time itself.

Like people get on today's singers for copying another today's singer when no one wants to look at what happened decades before. I don't know what OldPro was trying to get at but he failed at trying to point the finger on the Purple One. Prince didn't stunt the growth of "mainstream music". If he had that kind of power OldPro claims he has, wouldn't you think he would've HELPED its growth?

OldPro's point was that although Prince helped black music, he also did damage to it, not exactly his fault, but the direct result of his DIY approach is a lot of what we see today....and I can kinda see what he means

bboy87 said:

Timmy84 said:

Like people get on today's singers for copying another today's singer when no one wants to look at what happened decades before. I don't know what OldPro was trying to get at but he failed at trying to point the finger on the Purple One. Prince didn't stunt the growth of "mainstream music". If he had that kind of power OldPro claims he has, wouldn't you think he would've HELPED its growth?

OldPro's point was that although Prince helped black music, he also did damage to it, not exactly his fault, but the direct result of his DIY approach is a lot of what we see today....and I can kinda see what he means

. But see I don't know how I would blame Prince for it. I can imagine presidents of other labels (and Warner themselves) hearing Prince and going "okay we're gonna try the Prince route for our artists". That's what Bootsy Collins was talking about when the label (which he shared with Prince) told him to do a Prince-esque song ("Body Slam"). So I can't think the artist themselves would put a gun to someone's head and say "do it like this". I mean if we're gonna go the vainandy route, then Whitney Houston spawned a generation of so-called soulless R&B performers whose only audience were middle-aged conservative black audiences. And she was so powerful, other artists had to play "follow the leader" to keep up. That's kinda where I'm seeing with OldPro's argument. Just my opinion of course.

Timmy84 said:

That's what Bootsy Collins was talking about when the label (which he shared with Prince) told him to do a Prince-esque song ("Body Slam").

Really?

So that's why I've always loved it.

Or it could be that most pop artists are just plain lazy. They all wanna say that they "strive for perfection and originality", and they grew up watching the MJs, Princes, and Madonnas. In all actuality, they did just that: WATCH them. Copy and paste their "image" and call it their own.

novabrkr said:

Timmy84 said:

That's what Bootsy Collins was talking about when the label (which he shared with Prince) told him to do a Prince-esque song ("Body Slam").

Really?

So that's why I've always loved it.

His "Unsung" episode is up if you missed it. It's clear he was frustrated with the label demands. That's why he decided to sort his life out after its release.

at this thread. Well I knew it wa a bit of stretch, but worth a shot. I guess I'll have to do something like "the evolution of the blues" or something.

MajesticOne89 said:

at this thread. Well I knew it wa a bit of stretch, but worth a shot. I guess I'll have to do something like "the evolution of the blues" or something.

Or the evolution of Madonna's gorgeous tits.