suga10 said:

Na I disagree, I mean you had Sarah Mclachlan and Alanis Morissette who didn't really sell themselves out- and they were quite successful in thier own right.

Sarah bored me after a while. Alanis has decided to become a family woman now (she has a child). But those were the '90s. Of course they were out there because it was the TREND!

Remember that women's rock/singer-songwriter's movement in the '90s? Melissa Etheridge sparked a buzz and soon people were looking to promote women who could play guitar and sing a melancholy tune.

• Jewel
• Sarah
• Alanis
• Fiona
• The woman who sung "Sunny Came Home" (the name escapes me at the moment)...oh never mind it was Shawn Colvin
• The woman who sung "Bitch"

Then after that died down (along with Lilith Fair) that's when you got the "boyband/teen pop" craze of the late '90s and then the nu-metal stuff and all of that.

Come on, you think the industry was not all about gimmicks in the '90s? You and me both lived the '90s now, come on... what makes it different than the autotune pop stuff being passed out today. Turns out this gimmick has lasted longer because people have found new ways to promote it (reality shows, teen shows, etc).

I don't know if it's because you're forced to see it or you got kids who listen to it in your house but if you're by yourself and you catch yourself listening to it, then that's just...

Timmy84 said:

suga10 said:

Na I disagree, I mean you had Sarah Mclachlan and Alanis Morissette who didn't really sell themselves out- and they were quite successful in thier own right.

Sarah bored me after a while. Alanis has decided to become a family woman now (she has a child). But those were the '90s. Of course they were out there because it was the TREND!

Remember that women's rock/singer-songwriter's movement in the '90s? Melissa Etheridge sparked a buzz and soon people were looking to promote women who could play guitar and sing a melancholy tune.

• Jewel
• Sarah
• Alanis
• Fiona
• The woman who sung "Sunny Came Home" (the name escapes me at the moment)...oh never mind it was Shawn Colvin
• The woman who sung "Bitch"

Then after that died down (along with Lilith Fair) that's when you got the "boyband/teen pop" craze of the late '90s and then the nu-metal stuff and all of that.

Come on, you think the industry was not all about gimmicks in the '90s? You and me both lived the '90s now, come on... what makes it different than the autotune pop stuff being passed out today. Turns out this gimmick has lasted longer because people have found new ways to promote it (reality shows, teen shows, etc).

I don't know if it's because you're forced to see it or you got kids who listen to it in your house but if you're by yourself and you catch yourself listening to it, then that's just...

I see where you're going with this whole discussion, but at least they were talented and the music wasn't overshadowing their voices. Even if the gimmicks existed back then.

[Edited 4/3/11 10:50am]

By the way not saying the '90s singer-songwriter movement was a gimmick but when it becomes a trend, it gets promoted.

suga10 said:

I"m talking about our mainstream music here.

The good artists are not promoted.

If you want to be spoonfed music by the radio, then you have no business complaining about it. McDonald's & Coca Cola are "mainstream", that's should tell you something there. As far as what a "good artist" is, that is an opinion to the listener. I went to school with some metalheads, and to them anything without a loud & fast guitar solo wasn't real music.

suga10 said:

Timmy84 said:

Sarah bored me after a while. Alanis has decided to become a family woman now (she has a child). But those were the '90s. Of course they were out there because it was the TREND!

Remember that women's rock/singer-songwriter's movement in the '90s? Melissa Etheridge sparked a buzz and soon people were looking to promote women who could play guitar and sing a melancholy tune.

• Jewel
• Sarah
• Alanis
• Fiona
• The woman who sung "Sunny Came Home" (the name escapes me at the moment)...oh never mind it was Shawn Colvin
• The woman who sung "Bitch"

Then after that died down (along with Lilith Fair) that's when you got the "boyband/teen pop" craze of the late '90s and then the nu-metal stuff and all of that.

Come on, you think the industry was not all about gimmicks in the '90s? You and me both lived the '90s now, come on... what makes it different than the autotune pop stuff being passed out today. Turns out this gimmick has lasted longer because people have found new ways to promote it (reality shows, teen shows, etc).

I don't know if it's because you're forced to see it or you got kids who listen to it in your house but if you're by yourself and you catch yourself listening to it, then that's just...

I see where you're going with this whole discussion, but at least they were talented. Even if the gimmicks existed back then.

But see that's where I'm getting at. How can anyone say that their era was "real music" but eschew others? I just find the attacks more personal than a critique on the music itself.

suga10 said:

Na I disagree, I mean you had Sarah Mclachlan and Alanis Morissette who didn't really sell themselves out- and they were quite successful in thier own right with the general public.

Wasn't she a teenybopper singer when she started?

MickyDolenz said:

suga10 said:

Na I disagree, I mean you had Sarah Mclachlan and Alanis Morissette who didn't really sell themselves out- and they were quite successful in thier own right with the general public.

Wasn't she a teenybopper singer when she started?

YES!

And she don't regret those years either as some think. She actually said she was proud of those teenybopper years.

Timmy84 said:

formallypickles said:

but i really dont complain with mainstream music...

i dont like gaga all that much but i respect that there is talent there

same with justin beiber i dont really care for him but i can see his talent

alot of people no adays cant separate talent between personal preference

just because you dont like the artist music doesnt mean they dont have talent or are less talented

I avoid Bieber...he bores me. Gaga bores me with her antics. Why would I even wanna give my undivided attention to it? And they don't really get me to the point of wanting to strangle them. They both serve a purpose as do all the artists we claim DON'T have talent. But yet we still give them attention that is really unwarranted. So we do come off as bitter. I know some times I came off bitter talking about these artists especially if the music is not that good to my ears and they're not favorable. That's why some folks shake their head to why they keep getting discussed...and bashed.

and plus theres always been balance

there was always has beeen success for artist in different genres that would eventually would crossover

you would have country/ rap/ soul/ rock artist that would crossover to mainstream now there is no successful representation of other genres, just pop creations

now it seems like they are creating artrist to be mainstream and no crossover needed ...if that makes since

If something is musically appealing- I will acknowledge it regardless.

It has nothing to do with the whole- my generation of music is better.

I'm just very critical about music.

I'm critical about my cultural music too- I'm Indian, so I listen to Bollywood music as well, and I can safely say that it has gone downhill big time.

[Edited 4/3/11 10:59am]

vainandy said:

Hell, it's been in a rut since the early to mid 1990s when dance music (house music) died out and everything became adult contemporary and shit hop. This rut ain't nothing new. It's been here for almost 20 years.

I don't recall house music being played on R&B or "urban" stations, at least not where I live.

suga10 said:

If something is musically appealing- I will acknowledge it regardless.

It has nothing to do with the whole- my generation of music is better.

I'm just very critical about music.

i agree and stuff out now is not good

MickyDolenz said:

vainandy said:

Hell, it's been in a rut since the early to mid 1990s when dance music (house music) died out and everything became adult contemporary and shit hop. This rut ain't nothing new. It's been here for almost 20 years.

I don't recall house music being played on R&B or "urban" stations, at least not where I live.

House was not played unless it was time to party but even then it wasn't as promoted as it appeared. Look at what was on the R&B charts.

I hardly saw Crystal Waters or Cece Peniston on the charts unless they had R&B remixes to their songs. And Crystal never got no love on R&B. BET don't count because back then BET was all about promoting music of all sorts by black artists but the charts didn't reflect that and BET didn't even play "house" music by black artists that often ANYWAYS. They might've if it was a trend like it was in the early '90s (1990-1992 technically).

formallypickles said:

Timmy84 said:

I avoid Bieber...he bores me. Gaga bores me with her antics. Why would I even wanna give my undivided attention to it? And they don't really get me to the point of wanting to strangle them. They both serve a purpose as do all the artists we claim DON'T have talent. But yet we still give them attention that is really unwarranted. So we do come off as bitter. I know some times I came off bitter talking about these artists especially if the music is not that good to my ears and they're not favorable. That's why some folks shake their head to why they keep getting discussed...and bashed.

and plus theres always been balance

there was always has beeen success for artist in different genres that would eventually would crossover

you would have country/ rap/ soul/ rock artist that would crossover to mainstream now there is no successful representation of other genres, just pop creations

now it seems like they are creating artrist to be mainstream and no crossover needed ...if that makes since

I don't know if it's about balance or us getting older.

I don't listen to "creations". I know if one's a creation and if one's not. I'm not one of those "step into a land mine and see what happens if you don't blow up" kind of people.

Well I lived in Canada before, so unless Vainaindy is referring the whole Eurodance movement whic came like DJ Bobo, La Bouche, Fun Factory....

suga10 said:

Well I lived in Canada before, so unless Vainaindy is referring the whole Eurodance movement whic came like DJ Bobo, La Bouche, Fun Factory....

No Vainandy was talking about people like Black Box, C+C Music Factory, Snap! and 'em.

Timmy84 said:

formallypickles said:

and plus theres always been balance

there was always has beeen success for artist in different genres that would eventually would crossover

you would have country/ rap/ soul/ rock artist that would crossover to mainstream now there is no successful representation of other genres, just pop creations

now it seems like they are creating artrist to be mainstream and no crossover needed ...if that makes since

I don't know if it's about balance or us getting older.

I don't listen to "creations". I know if one's a creation and if one's not. I'm not one of those "step into a land mine and see what happens if you don't blow up" kind of people.

Fair enough

Timmy84 said:

suga10 said:

Well I lived in Canada before, so unless Vainaindy is referring the whole Eurodance movement whic came like DJ Bobo, La Bouche, Fun Factory....

No Vainandy was talking about people like Black Box, C+C Music Factory, Snap! and 'em.

But there was a eurodance movement between 1993 and 1997 going on within Canada.

But yes I remember Snap too.

And you forget Culture Beat- with Mr. Vain.

formallypickles said:

now it seems like they are creating artrist to be mainstream and no crossover needed ...if that makes since

Why should someone have to "crossover"? That's basically saying that someone's music is inferior or low class because the "majority" (usually meaning upper class "cultured" white folks) don't listen to it.

suga10 said:

Timmy84 said:

No Vainandy was talking about people like Black Box, C+C Music Factory, Snap! and 'em.

But there was a eurodance movement between 1993 and 1997 going on within Canada.

But yes I remember Snap too.

And you forget Culture Beat- with Mr. Vain.

I was a fan of that stuff. I don't know if Andy was though.

Timmy84 said:

suga10 said:

But there was a eurodance movement between 1993 and 1997 going on within Canada.

But yes I remember Snap too.

And you forget Culture Beat- with Mr. Vain.

I was a fan of that stuff. I don't know if Andy was though.

I loved it too, but I'm sure they were those who couldn't stand it.

MickyDolenz said:

formallypickles said:

now it seems like they are creating artrist to be mainstream and no crossover needed ...if that makes since

Why should someone have to "crossover"? That's basically saying that someone's music is inferior or low class because the "majority" (usually meaning upper class "cultured" white folks) don't listen to it.

It's funny. Some folks like the Clark Sisters or someone like Phyllis Hyman was NOT going to crossover to other forms of music, no matter how many bucks they were going to get for being crossover. Andy once ranted about that. Some even complain the "crossover" thing is what destroyed some artists' careers.

MickyDolenz said:

vainandy said:

Hell, it's been in a rut since the early to mid 1990s when dance music (house music) died out and everything became adult contemporary and shit hop. This rut ain't nothing new. It's been here for almost 20 years.

I don't recall house music being played on R&B or "urban" stations, at least not where I live.

And house music never went away. Mainly throughout the 90's and 00's there have been numerous of dance-releases and dance-events.

House eventually evolved in various sub genres such as hard(core) house, techno, trance, soulful house, breakbeat, jungle, 2-step, and so on.

suga10 said:

Timmy84 said:

I was a fan of that stuff. I don't know if Andy was though.

I loved it too, but I'm sure they were those who couldn't stand it.

But see we have to think about that time frame... Some folks are a little older than us and they may not have liked it as much as we did. SOMETIMES a generational gap is necessary with things like that.

Timmy84 said:

suga10 said:

I loved it too, but I'm sure they were those who couldn't stand it.

But see we have to think about that time frame... Some folks are a little older than us and they may not have liked it as much as we did. SOMETIMES a generational gap is necessary with things like that.

Which is why I'll never criticize teenagers and their taste- if they enjoy Justin Bieber, Jonas Brothers, or whomever.

B/c to their generation- he's special.

But realistically, the quality of the music that these people are producing is not that good. Lets be honest here. Nothing to do with b/c old music is my shit or anything, but from an honest perspective.

[Edited 4/3/11 11:18am]

[Edited 4/3/11 11:19am]

MickyDolenz said:

I never understood that neo-soul stuff. I just considered it buppie music, like something that would be played in a Starbuck's if black upper middle class people owned it. It all sounds alike to me.

"The song was a year long

It had been playing for months . . . "

suga10 said:

Timmy84 said:

But see we have to think about that time frame... Some folks are a little older than us and they may not have liked it as much as we did. SOMETIMES a generational gap is necessary with things like that.

Which is why I'll never criticize teenagers and their taste- if they enjoy Justin Bieber, Jonas Brothers, or whomever.

B/c to their generation- he's special.

But realistically, the quality of the music that these people are producing is not that good. Lets be honest here. Nothing to do with b/c old music is my shit or anything, but from an honest perspective.

[Edited 4/3/11 11:18am]

[Edited 4/3/11 11:19am]

Yeah but do we have to keep beating a dead horse over it? It's starting to really reek in here.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Why should someone have to "crossover"? That's basically saying that someone's music is inferior or low class because the "majority" (usually meaning upper class "cultured" white folks) don't listen to it.

It's funny. Some folks like the Clark Sisters or someone like Phyllis Hyman was NOT going to crossover to other forms of music, no matter how many bucks they were going to get for being crossover. Andy once ranted about that. Some even complain the "crossover" thing is what destroyed some artists' careers.

It doesn't make much sense that a song has to become a big hit on some "minor" chart like R&B, before the "major" Top 40 will play it. It should have been played in the first place. Why is the pop chart really important anyway?

Timmy84 said:

suga10 said:

Which is why I'll never criticize teenagers and their taste- if they enjoy Justin Bieber, Jonas Brothers, or whomever.

B/c to their generation- he's special.

But realistically, the quality of the music that these people are producing is not that good. Lets be honest here. Nothing to do with b/c old music is my shit or anything, but from an honest perspective.

[Edited 4/3/11 11:18am]

[Edited 4/3/11 11:19am]

Yeah but do we have to keep beating a dead horse over it? It's starting to really reek in here.

Yes we're beating a dead horse over it , but I was trying to say that in the end was that- my views are not influenced from a generation perspective, but from a person who's just critical of music in general and will be ready to acknowledge somebody if its indeed good stuff.

suga10 said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah but do we have to keep beating a dead horse over it? It's starting to really reek in here.

Yes we're beating a dead horse over it , but I was trying to say that in the end was that- my views are not influenced from a generation perspective, but from a person who's just critical of music in general and will be ready to acknowledge somebody if its indeed good stuff.

Oh and that's how you based your comments on the Beatles.

Personal much?

Shango said:

lol, this is an ever-returning and never-ending debate/issue/topic.

The irony is that the current generation of listeners will complain the same way in one or a few decades.

Thing is that you're growing up with a specific sound which can be attached to good memories of your past,

so that connection will always be strong. Once that genre changes or disappears you might feel abandoned.

As MickyDolenz pointed out earlier in this topic, a great variety of genres being offered on mainstream radio

isn't indeed so much the case anymore, with a few exceptions maybe. Good alternatives for me are internet

radio stations in the UK, such as Solar Radio and Starpoint Radio . What a number of their dj's do is that they

explore regularly on CDBaby | Urban/R&B where various independent artists represent their work.

Maybe they still search on MySpace as well, but i guess that many artists have concentrated their

showcase on Facebook, where multi-media possibilities have been added to the updated page-options.

And the finds which those dj's eventually spin in their shows can be surprising and interesting.

For example, some good years ago they were airing various tracks of Liv Warfield's debut-album.

Way before her name got more attention when she hooked up with Prince. And so on.

These dj's do a lot of fieldwork for you in advance, because these days you have to work a little mo' to find what you're looking for.

You can't rely on Clear Channel's program if you're expecting some new interesting sounds.

And recently there were excellent topics started by paisleypark4 : New r&b, funk, dance ...es anyone? , MickyDolenz : Current traditional R&B ,

paligap : In Flight : an ethereally...on trip... , and no doubt some more if ya look around.

[Edited 4/3/11 6:45am]

Co-sign.

The Org is a great place to find new music.

I've found some great stuff here.

Someone posts it in a thread, I've read the thread and went and found it.

Everyone from Lewis Taylor to Snow Patrol to Kings of Leon when I first heard "Sex on Fire.'

Janelle Monae I discovered here . . .