trueiopian said:

Pressure said:

But they didn't just bring her songs. Aaliyah actually sat with her team and helped songwriters come up with themes and subjects for songs, or she would tell them what kind of song she wants/looking for and they would make the song and tailor it to her liking.

I don't see how that's a puppet. a Puppet is someone who does NOTHING but just record over demos all day long and just does what their label tells them.

[Edited 3/26/11 3:01am]

Then why do the credits state otherwise? If she actually contributed she would be credited, correct?

A puppet is someone that doesn't write, producer or create anything. They just sit back and approve what they like.

Aaliyah admitted that she wasn't that great of a song writer, but that doesn't stop her from having ideas during the writing process of a record. HOWEVER, these are two tracks Aaliyah wrote by herself from the One in a Million recording session...both ended up as B-Sides to singles

Death of a Player (Feat. Rashad (her brother))

No Days Go By

I half-way agree with Ginuwine. Before she passed away she was coming into her own as an artist. She had that "It' about her like a young Sade. Of course i'm not saying she could sing like Sade, she had an aurora of mystery about her that was just starting to catch on outside of her cult following. Her music didn't follow the current trend of other pop artist at the time and she had a nice crew of producers who meshed nicely with her style. Her latest videos were top notch, the dancing was well choreographed and her beauty captivated the attention of her audience. 'Let Me Know", 'Rock The Boat', 'Try Again', 'We Need a Resolution' and 'More Than a Woman' were excellent songs. Maybe she would not be up there with Beyonce, but with the help of Timbaland and Missy Elliot she would've eventually came close. Guess well never know...R.I.P Beautiful

H

Death of a Player (Feat. Rashad (her brother))

No Days Go By

Her voice was so sultry & sexy it rivaled a young Donna Summer....

Death of a Player (Feat. Rashad (her brother))

No Days Go By

Aaliyah voice was so sultry it rivaled a young Donna Summer....

trueiopian said:

Pressure said:

But they didn't just bring her songs. Aaliyah actually sat with her team and helped songwriters come up with themes and subjects for songs, or she would tell them what kind of song she wants/looking for and they would make the song and tailor it to her liking.

I don't see how that's a puppet. a Puppet is someone who does NOTHING but just record over demos all day long and just does what their label tells them.

[Edited 3/26/11 3:01am]

Then why do the credits state otherwise? If she actually contributed she would be credited, correct?

A puppet is someone that doesn't write, producer or create anything. They just sit back and approve what they like.

Sort of like Janet on her last album...

chamber said:

trueiopian said:

Then why do the credits state otherwise? If she actually contributed she would be credited, correct?

A puppet is someone that doesn't write, producer or create anything. They just sit back and approve what they like.

Sort of like Janet on her last album...

UH OH...

trueiopian said:

Pressure said:

But they didn't just bring her songs. Aaliyah actually sat with her team and helped songwriters come up with themes and subjects for songs, or she would tell them what kind of song she wants/looking for and they would make the song and tailor it to her liking.

I don't see how that's a puppet. a Puppet is someone who does NOTHING but just record over demos all day long and just does what their label tells them.

[Edited 3/26/11 3:01am]

Then why do the credits state otherwise? If she actually contributed she would be credited, correct?

A puppet is someone that doesn't write, producer or create anything. They just sit back and approve what they like.

Isn't that what JANET did for her first two albums? Janet didn't write, produce or CREATE ANYTHING on her first two albums ..

We'll never know.

[img:$uid]http://i.imgur.com/bs0tQ.gif[/img:$uid]

Layzie said:

We'll never know.

[img:$uid]http://i.imgur.com/bs0tQ.gif[/img:$uid]

My favorite Aaliyah shot! She's still the only woman I've ever seen to make that dark eyeshadow look sexy.

ViintageJunkiie said:

trueiopian said:

Then why do the credits state otherwise? If she actually contributed she would be credited, correct?

A puppet is someone that doesn't write, producer or create anything. They just sit back and approve what they like.

Isn't that what JANET did for her first two albums? Janet didn't write, produce or CREATE ANYTHING on her first two albums ..

Again, what does Janet have to with this?

She wrote, produced and created from 3rd album and on. We can't say the same about Aaliyah...

chamber said:

trueiopian said:

Then why do the credits state otherwise? If she actually contributed she would be credited, correct?

A puppet is someone that doesn't write, producer or create anything. They just sit back and approve what they like.

Sort of like Janet on her last album...

Yea, 3 out of 10 albums. Aaliyah 3 out of 3 albums.

Try harder.

trueiopian said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

Isn't that what JANET did for her first two albums? Janet didn't write, produce or CREATE ANYTHING on her first two albums ..

Again, what does Janet have to with this?

She wrote, produced and created from 3rd album and on. We can't say the same about Aaliyah...

Aaliyah only had 3 albums before she passed .. First album was written and produced solely by R Kelly (we all know he doesn't co-write) and she wrote 2 records from One in A Million ("Death of a Player" and "No Days Go By (which was a bonus track)" which were both b-sides to hit singles).

Aaliyah passed in 2001, it's now 2011 so who knows what she'd be capable of by now...but she's gone so the world will never know

ViintageJunkiie said:

trueiopian said:

Again, what does Janet have to with this?

She wrote, produced and created from 3rd album and on. We can't say the same about Aaliyah...

Aaliyah only had 3 albums before she passed .. First album was written and produced solely by R Kelly (we all know he doesn't co-write) and she wrote 2 records from One in A Million ("Death of a Player" and "No Days Go By (which was a bonus track)" which were both b-sides to hit singles).

Aaliyah passed in 2001, it's now 2011 so who knows what she'd be capable of by now...but she's gone so the world will never know

What she's capable of? You tried to shade Janet (and failed) for her first 2 albums yet Aaliyah didn't write or produce any of her material. Janet wrote a few songs for Latoya's flop when she was 14. At least, she showed some talent for writing at a young age. Can't say the same for others.

trueiopian said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

Aaliyah only had 3 albums before she passed .. First album was written and produced solely by R Kelly (we all know he doesn't co-write) and she wrote 2 records from One in A Million ("Death of a Player" and "No Days Go By (which was a bonus track)" which were both b-sides to hit singles).

Aaliyah passed in 2001, it's now 2011 so who knows what she'd be capable of by now...but she's gone so the world will never know

What she's capable of? You tried to shade Janet (and failed) for her first 2 albums yet Aaliyah didn't write or produce any of her material. Janet wrote a few songs for Latoya's flop when she was 14. At least, she showed some talent for writing at a young age. Can't say the same for others.

Ok.

ViintageJunkiie said:

trueiopian said:

Then why do the credits state otherwise? If she actually contributed she would be credited, correct?

A puppet is someone that doesn't write, producer or create anything. They just sit back and approve what they like.

Isn't that what JANET did for her first two albums? Janet didn't write, produce or CREATE ANYTHING on her first two albums ..

But her father wouldn't let her have a say on her music. Right?

ThePopLover2 said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

Isn't that what JANET did for her first two albums? Janet didn't write, produce or CREATE ANYTHING on her first two albums ..

But her father wouldn't let her have a say on her music. Right?

When she was 17, she did what people told her.*

*That made her the only 17-year-old in recorded history to actually follow directions.

trueiopian said:

chamber said:

Sort of like Janet on her last album...

Yea, 3 out of 10 albums. Aaliyah 3 out of 3 albums.

Try harder.

Nope. Don't have to try harder, because my point remains. You said that someone who doesn't write, produce, or create is a 'puppet.' On Janet's most recent album, she is not credited for having written a single lyric or even co-producing a single track. By your criteria, she was a 'puppet.' Don't try and backtrack and make excuses after you say something that can be thrown back in your face. I don't give a fuck how many albums she's had, or how much she did or didn't contribute the older ones. Discipline is her latest studio album, and in the (music) business world you're judged by most recent project.

But since you want to try and use whatever creative input she had on the albums before it as a crutch...okay....I'll play along for a second to make the observation that once upon a time Janet seemed to have more seminal creative input on her albums, but this most recent outing she had none. So basically she went from being an artist to being reduced to a puppet. Hmmm. In Aaliyah's defense, at least she was never demoted. She never touted herself as being in 'Control,' only to have the power she once had taken away after she peaked.

chamber said:

trueiopian said:

Yea, 3 out of 10 albums. Aaliyah 3 out of 3 albums.

Try harder.

Nope. Don't have to try harder, because my point remains. You said that someone who doesn't write, produce, or create is a 'puppet.' On Janet's most recent album, she is not credited for having written a single lyric or even co-producing a single track. By your criteria, she was a 'puppet.' Don't try and backtrack and make excuses after you say something that can be thrown back in your face. I don't give a fuck how many albums she's had, or how much she did or didn't contribute the older ones. Discipline is her latest studio album, and in the (music) business world you're judged by most recent project.

But since you want to try and use whatever creative input she had on the albums before it as a crutch...okay....I'll play along for a second to make the observation that once upon a time Janet seemed to have more seminal creative input on her albums, but this most recent outing she had none. So basically she went from being an artist to being reduced to a puppet. Hmmm. In Aaliyah's defense, at least she was never demoted. She never touted herself as being in 'Control,' only to have the power she once had taken away after she peaked.

Janet has written, produced and arranged the majority of the songs on 7 out of 10 studio albums. Janet's first 2 albums were released when she was under the control of her father. She had no say on the creation process and was forced to record both albums.

Discipline was LA Reid's project. He took over the whole project because he was determined to make it her 'comeback' album but failed. LA Reid gave Janet zero control over her own album which lead to her departure from his label.

So my stance on Aaliyah being a puppet remains. She had ZERO input on her albums from debut to her last release. Whereas Janet did and the circumstances behind the 3 albums she didn't are reasonable.

She never touted herself as being in 'Control

You fail, again. Aaliyah dubbed her self-titled album as her 'Control' album yet she never took 'control' of the creation of the album. Hmm, go figure.

Try harder.

ThePopLover2 said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

Isn't that what JANET did for her first two albums? Janet didn't write, produce or CREATE ANYTHING on her first two albums ..

But her father wouldn't let her have a say on her music. Right?

Exactly. She didn't even want to record the albums in the first place.

10 pages?

bboy87 said:

10 pages?

TotalAlisa said:

Pressure said:

Of course Aaliyah (at 22 years old) Could never outsing Beyonce (who had time to master and perfect at voice at 30). Janet is the queen of dance, no one could top that. and lol @ her voice not being unique. says WHO? She easily had one of the best female head voices of her time. All of her songs were specifcally tailored for her voice (see the dream BUTCHER her song for example) and She WAS on track to being a it girl. Movie deals, endorsements, Album selling DECENT (not amazing, but decnet), award show performances lined up, Planned tour, etc. I don't see how she wasn't on track when she was putting in work. Going from a # 18 album to a # 2 album that's Gold?

and Aaliyah was involved in her music. She gave songwriters (and producers) ideas for song topics and instruments. (Timbaland even said that when aaliyah died a bit of his creativity did as well). Just because someone isn't on the credit doesn't mean they didnt do anything. Beyonce just changes a word or two on her songs and she's listed as a "songwriter". Please. If Beyonce was REALLY this amazing "song writer" "producer" or etc, show me a song that she has done without 10 other people on the credits. Please.

and the fact that you were in elementary school playing with crayola crayons when aaliyah was alive says alot. She was in FACT on track to being a huge star. She was getting pushed towards the mainstream market than ever before (she was even scheduled to perform at the vmas, yeah, she was a total nobody:lol: )

and you wan't to criticize someone's talent when you Have Britney Spears, who was notorious for lipsyncing and being a full industry puppet in your avatar with stiff recycled dance moves and could barely sing out of the 1st octave.. the fuking nerve.

[Edited 3/24/11 16:40pm]

that is exactly what i was thinking.....

Sincere question...you said that you used to be a Beyoncé/DC fan...so I ask what made you a fan of them when you was one?

Pressure said:

musicjunky318 said:

I'd also like to make the point that the knives and guns are always pointed in Beyonce's face simply out of jealousy. She's the current queen bee of all black female artists so she garners the most attacks, often coming from black women themselves. Go figure. The game is obvious, it's been played before and it must be stopped. You (and when I say you I mean the collective you) don't have to like her but why feel obligated to be in spite of her success? We get it, Aaliyah is dead. It was tragic. But what on earth does that have to do with what was happening chart-wise when she was still here? What does that have to do with how talented she was? Like I said the other day, it's amazing what someone's passing can do to their legacy. It really is. Her voice was not unique, she couldn't outsing Beyonce, she couldn't outdance Janet, she couldn't out perform either one of them, never had the same type of hits...She was never the "it girl", wasn't on track to be the "it girl", never wrote anything, never produced anything, did no vocal arrangement. She didn't contribute jack. This is what's called being overrated. And she isn't the first to be gased up like this after death either.

Of course Aaliyah (at 22 years old) Could never outsing Beyonce (who had time to master and perfect at voice at 30). Janet is the queen of dance, no one could top that. and lol @ her voice not being unique. says WHO? She easily had one of the best female head voices of her time. All of her songs were specifcally tailored for her voice (see the dream BUTCHER her song for example) and She WAS on track to being a it girl. Movie deals, endorsements, Album selling DECENT (not amazing, but decnet), award show performances lined up, Planned tour, etc. I don't see how she wasn't on track when she was putting in work. Going from a # 18 album to a # 2 album that's Gold?

and Aaliyah was involved in her music. She gave songwriters (and producers) ideas for song topics and instruments. (Timbaland even said that when aaliyah died a bit of his creativity did as well). Just because someone isn't on the credit doesn't mean they didnt do anything. Beyonce just changes a word or two on her songs and she's listed as a "songwriter". Please. If Beyonce was REALLY this amazing "song writer" "producer" or etc, show me a song that she has done without 10 other people on the credits. Please.

and the fact that you were in elementary school playing with crayola crayons when aaliyah was alive says alot. She was in FACT on track to being a huge star. She was getting pushed towards the mainstream market than ever before (she was even scheduled to perform at the vmas, yeah, she was a total nobody:lol: )

and you wan't to criticize someone's talent when you Have Britney Spears, who was notorious for lipsyncing and being a full industry puppet in your avatar with stiff recycled dance moves and could barely sing out of the 1st octave.. the fuking nerve.

[Edited 3/24/11 16:40pm]

I agree with on that you say on Aaliyah(which is why I say both of them would shine if ADH was alive) and she should have gotten credit for all of this btw because she contributed to the composition of the songs and that's what songwriting is. But on your point about Beyoncé, first of all she does has songs, especially during the DIL era where there is only one other person with publishing credits(producing and lyric-writing) like My, Myself and I, Daddy, and Dangerously in Love and she even has a song where she has sole lyrical publishing(Shuggie Otis is sampled so he gets great also), Gift From a Virgo which is one of my fave songs from her ever.

But really she's not a big lyric-writer(she said this herself, numerous times even before she was a full-fledged solo artist) but her thing is (re)arrangements. She has great harmonic arrangements, for example, in which one of her mix engineers explains how she does them: Beyonce just hears those harmonies in her head. She was born with them. Her dad, Matthew is quite a good singer, and I believe Tina sings also. She usually starts off with the tonic, and builds from there. She does a little experimentation, and then blends them herself with the engineer. I love her timing. She has no regard for the beat, but it always sounds right. http://www.gearslutz.com/...night.html

It's a big part of her sound(as well as vocal arrangement heavy-sound period). In fact, listen to CIL's bridge and Irreplaceable's bridge also, they are two example of what she brings to the table. So Bey does much more than add a word or two. The thing with her is that for one, she tends to get demos giving to her, which is standard practice for today's industry because even producers get demos, that's one of the reasons why you will a lot of names in the publishing credits with numerous artists and if not that, she collabs when recording songs "from stratch". Even her personal assistant(Angie Beyincé, her cousin) has publishing credit for many songs from her.

That's just how it is. But here is something to ponder. This is a quote from Big Jon Platt, president of West Coast creative for EMI Music Publishing, that I think says it all when it comes to this topic concerning Bey: "What people may not know about her is that besides being such an accomplished performer, she's a great producer. She also has some of the best A&R instincts I've ever come across" http://www.billboard.com/...ory?page=3

I post things like this all time, and it tends to get ignored but Bey is involved in every facet of her brand and product as she should. I don't know why people don't want to believe this. I know that this board don't like her(someone said this in here) but objectivity is objectivity.

[Edited 3/28/11 15:04pm]

Cerebus said:

Not trying to be a dick here myself, but I wonder sometimes if people realize what clueless assholes they come off as when expressing what is (99.9% of the time) just their uneducated opinion?

Does how someones music reaches you really affect your opinion of their talent, music, voice, etc.? If so then you don't know very much about the "music business". Its a product that is marketed and sold to you, no different than laundry soap or a hamburger. Even the most "pure" (whatever that means) independent artist, selling their PRODUCT by themselves at their shows, out of their trunk or through their website is STILL trying to get your money (either by going to their shows or by buying their music and merchandise). This nonsense about how somebody got into the "business" should have absolutely no bearing on whether or not you like their "product". What affect does their song, voice, image, etc have on your emotions and way of thinking while listening or watching? Really, that's all that matters. Or all that should matter.

Also, don't think for a second that the business is overflowing with nepotism. Its everywhere, at all levels.

Lastly, Beyonce has worked her ass off for about a decade straight. Anybody who thinks otherwise is COMPLETELY clueless. Its hard, and its hard work, to keep people focused and paying attention to you that much, for that long.

TotalAlisa said:

trueiopian said:

Her range is just as wide as some of the critical acclaimed singers and she has power when she wants to.

I agree and this is coming from somone who sings janet's songs all the time...

she may not be singing like whitney/mariah... but her songs aren't for beginners... Janet has a very soft, angelic and high tone in her voice. That most people even if they could sing or hit the same notes as janet would not sound as soothing as her...

Nah, change what I said, what she has is a light "lyric" mezzo tone as opposed to Whitney who has more dramatic "darker" tone. Tone and range are different things.

AlexdeParis said:

Layzie said:

We'll never know.

[img:$uid]http://i.imgur.com/bs0tQ.gif[/img:$uid]

My favorite Aaliyah shot! She's still the only woman I've ever seen to make that dark eyeshadow look sexy.

She is absolutely beautiful in that video.....actually when I saw it for the first time I was like...... aaawwww shit, my girl is giving it to ya on the real sexy tip...I love the tomboy look but every now and then she would glam it up and then KA-POW!

I miss her and what would have been.

Curtwill1975 said:

TotalAlisa said:

I agree and this is coming from somone who sings janet's songs all the time...

she may not be singing like whitney/mariah... but her songs aren't for beginners... Janet has a very soft, angelic and high tone in her voice. That most people even if they could sing or hit the same notes as janet would not sound as soothing as her...

Nah, change what I said, what she has is a light "lyric" mezzo tone as opposed to Whitney who has more dramatic "darker" tone. Tone and range are different things.

Wrong Janet can sing in a low register 2 . Have U ever heard "Love will never do"(Originally written as a duet with Prince) or "Nasty" or her other hit song "Alright". u know nothing about Janet's different voice ranges I C.

[Edited 3/31/11 10:44am]

ViintageJunkiie said:

trueiopian said:

Then why do the credits state otherwise? If she actually contributed she would be credited, correct?

A puppet is someone that doesn't write, producer or create anything. They just sit back and approve what they like.

Isn't that what JANET did for her first two albums? Janet didn't write, produce or CREATE ANYTHING on her first two albums ..

come on now you a MJ fan... so you know how controlling papa joe is so don't even try to be cute

This thread should have stayed out to pasture where it was. No need for grave digging.