NaughtyKitty said:

MJJstudent said:

i think that depends on your perspective... i think you can love your family and still carry a lot of issues. michael was not that secretive about the issues he carried, either if you're discussing his speech at oxford or the conversation with glenda. there are indeed a lot of issues he took with him to his grave, but he still acknowledged he had a lot of healing to do.

your perspective seems to be that he knew he was loved. i agree with you, up to a point. i think he knew he was loved, but in my mind it seems to me he felt the love was conditional. i mean, if he was just some guy off the street, would the fan base love and defend him the same? i can't say. his fame (and our perceptions of him) appears to be the condition which drives the love.

in terms of his father, michael stated that his father told him and his brothers they'd be dropped "like a hot potato" if they stopped performing. again, i see that love as conditional.

i would HOPE that despite all the issues, his family loved him unconditionally... but i have difficulty believing that.

my perspective is one that looks at michael as someone who has been abused. those who have histories with childhood trauma and abuse are likely to have trust and boundary issues. so when i see michael speaking about his abuse, i understand when he talks about lonliness. a lot of people don't come to terms with their abuse until they become much older. and michael working so hard to try to form friendships backfired (according to him) due to his fame.

so yes, he knew he was loved... but at what price did that love come? did he have any true friends and companions (outside of his field) he could count on? did he have someone he could confide in about his traumas? did he have anyone in his life who did NOT see him as 'michael jackson (tm)'?

or simply, was he just loved by fans, who for all intents and purposes, saw him as a product, an entertainer?

this is purely my opinion, but i think the only people who loved him unconditionally (who didn't look at him as an entertainer, some gateway to a fantasy or a cash cow) were his children.

so for me, it's not the end of the story at all. i think these are questions to explore, in relation to the psychology of abuse and trauma. how much healing was actually done? did he have an opportunity to even get there?

Thank you for sharing your opinion MJJStudent. Excellently and wonderfully put!

thanks a lot for taking the time out to read it... i just think there is a difference between knowing you are loved, and feeling loved. it's like a person who KNOWS they are thin (and everyone tells them they are then) but they don't feel thin.

alphastreet said:

Even if they loved him unconditionally or said it to his face, young MJ was not raised to believe that and carried it into adulthood, and nothing and no one could repair those emotional scars imprinted on him. It was too late and could not be undone.

I think the reason he never gave up later was cause he had children. I don't think he would have been able to handle the trial had he not had children. I think a part of me, as well as other fans. saw him as someone who has been through hell and back and felt that if he could deal with his issues, they can deal with theirs. I did that for so long that by the time mj went though I don't think it's his fault though I don't agree with every choice, I felt he gave up though he didn't really.

yeah, totally.

Marrk said:

So i was watching the memorial tonight for my own reasons. Does Stevie really say Michael did a version of 'I never dreamed you would leave in summer'? cause he certainly implies that he did in the intro.

nah... actually STEVIE'S part was the only part i saw for the 'memorial'. what he stated was that he sent quincy jones a tape of 'i can't help it' (written by himself and susaye green) for michael to do... he stated his sister renee played the tape of michael singing it to him, and he was amazed. he plays a little riff of the song as he's speaking, then says something to the effect of 'michael i can't help but love you'... then does 'i never dreamed...' and 'they won't go when i go'.

mozfonky said:

MJJstudent said:

i think that depends on your perspective... i think you can love your family and still carry a lot of issues. michael was not that secretive about the issues he carried, either if you're discussing his speech at oxford or the conversation with glenda. there are indeed a lot of issues he took with him to his grave, but he still acknowledged he had a lot of healing to do.

your perspective seems to be that he knew he was loved. i agree with you, up to a point. i think he knew he was loved, but in my mind it seems to me he felt the love was conditional. i mean, if he was just some guy off the street, would the fan base love and defend him the same? i can't say. his fame (and our perceptions of him) appears to be the condition which drives the love.

in terms of his father, michael stated that his father told him and his brothers they'd be dropped "like a hot potato" if they stopped performing. again, i see that love as conditional.

i would HOPE that despite all the issues, his family loved him unconditionally... but i have difficulty believing that.

my perspective is one that looks at michael as someone who has been abused. those who have histories with childhood trauma and abuse are likely to have trust and boundary issues. so when i see michael speaking about his abuse, i understand when he talks about lonliness. a lot of people don't come to terms with their abuse until they become much older. and michael working so hard to try to form friendships backfired (according to him) due to his fame.

so yes, he knew he was loved... but at what price did that love come? did he have any true friends and companions (outside of his field) he could count on? did he have someone he could confide in about his traumas? did he have anyone in his life who did NOT see him as 'michael jackson (tm)'?

or simply, was he just loved by fans, who for all intents and purposes, saw him as a product, an entertainer?

this is purely my opinion, but i think the only people who loved him unconditionally (who didn't look at him as an entertainer, some gateway to a fantasy or a cash cow) were his children.

so for me, it's not the end of the story at all. i think these are questions to explore, in relation to the psychology of abuse and trauma. how much healing was actually done? did he have an opportunity to even get there?

this is getting philosophical but I'll comment. I love Mike because of his spirit, what he as an artist to me as a young man and so on. That said, I would also say, love isn't always a good thing, I try to keep love in control for myself. You can love some screwy people and ruin your life and vice versa, I'm just saying love isn't all it's cracked up to be. But yes, I'd love Mike if he'd never sang another not or wrote a song, we lost someone special.

i am a major fan of philosophical stuff... that said, i was one of those few people vouching for him to never perform ever again... i was hoping he'd retire and just live out the rest of his life being a father (and grandfather). i never wanted to see him perform 'billie jean' or 'beat it' ever again. i was perfectly happy seeing him travel and simply giving speeches, as this is my favourite aspect of him as a public figure. when he did the 'this is it' announcement i was really pissed off at him.

as sad as i am about his transition, i am happy for him that he NEVER has to dance or sing on a stage ever again.

In my Dave Chappelle voice: "just the backgrounds ni$$a!"

Timmy84 said:

In my Dave Chappelle voice: "just the backgrounds ni$$a!"

cool! i do love the vocal percussion on this track though. i'd love to get my hands on a 12" instrumental. if they ever had one. invincible was a severely underrated album.

yes indeed... even though my favourite thing about him is when he does the speeches and when he does the message songs... i have to totally acknowledge how capitvated i am when i watch him. and yes, i can just sit and watch him all day. well, not really, because then i just go and end up dancing, so...

i don't care... NO ONE ELSE gets me with those spins... only him. not even james brown.

Timmy84 said:

In my Dave Chappelle voice: "just the backgrounds ni$$a!"

That middle eight is incredible.

Timmy84 said:

In my Dave Chappelle voice: "just the backgrounds ni$$a!"

His self harmonising is incredible. But damn that song is repetitive as hell and such an overproduced teeny girl bopper mess!

This threads dying down ain't it? Ain't checked it in months, but notice that post count increasing little. Where you all gone?

Had a dance battle at the local underground dance club the other day, i go with my brother who is an incredible mover and we put people to shame, naturally. Anyway, i was battling this guy and he made the mistake of doing MJ for one turn, you know, using the "aww he's tributing MJ, he must win" card....little did he know of my past fandom! I did MJ proud and proceeded to resurrect past memories of practicing his moves daily growing up. Needless to say, that was the last turn taken.

Just thought i'd share that even though i'm sure a lot of you think i want to kill MJ's kids. Oh and my song chosen was Jam. Not that i particularly like it, but i was doing a lot of Dangerous era moves.

WetDream said:

Timmy84 said:

In my Dave Chappelle voice: "just the backgrounds ni$$a!"

His self harmonising is incredible. But damn that song is repetitive as hell and such an overproduced teeny girl bopper mess!

This threads dying down ain't it? Ain't checked it in months, but notice that post count increasing little. Where you all gone?

Had a dance battle at the local underground dance club the other day, i go with my brother who is an incredible mover and we put people to shame, naturally. Anyway, i was battling this guy and he made the mistake of doing MJ for one turn, you know, using the "aww he's tributing MJ, he must win" card....little did he know of my past fandom! I did MJ proud and proceeded to resurrect past memories of practicing his moves daily growing up. Needless to say, that was the last turn taken.

Just thought i'd share that even though i'm sure a lot of you think i want to kill MJ's kids. Oh and my song chosen was Jam. Not that i particularly like it, but i was doing a lot of Dangerous era moves.

Yeah, I've always thought most of the dance tracks on Invincible sucked ass. Whenever I played the disc I usually skipped them .

It was like he was trying to copy N'Sync's style - I was an N'Sync fan at the time, and when they did it it worked for them imo, but I didn't want to hear that from MJ.

The ballads on Invincible are soooo damn good though that they make up for the fast tracks.

MJJstudent said:

mozfonky said:

this is getting philosophical but I'll comment. I love Mike because of his spirit, what he as an artist to me as a young man and so on. That said, I would also say, love isn't always a good thing, I try to keep love in control for myself. You can love some screwy people and ruin your life and vice versa, I'm just saying love isn't all it's cracked up to be. But yes, I'd love Mike if he'd never sang another not or wrote a song, we lost someone special.

i am a major fan of philosophical stuff... that said, i was one of those few people vouching for him to never perform ever again... i was hoping he'd retire and just live out the rest of his life being a father (and grandfather). i never wanted to see him perform 'billie jean' or 'beat it' ever again. i was perfectly happy seeing him travel and simply giving speeches, as this is my favourite aspect of him as a public figure. when he did the 'this is it' announcement i was really pissed off at him.

as sad as i am about his transition, i am happy for him that he NEVER has to dance or sing on a stage ever again.

Love can be depleting, that's what I'm saying, I laid on the floor for a day and was in a daze for several more because of his death. I'm a grown, proud man, it doesn't really make any logical sense but my point is made. Love can hurt like a son of a bitch.

No doubt Michael got used. I think no one was disputing that. I surely wasn't. But it wasn't all self-pity though it's documented he went through long periods of depression so no one's disputing that. Just saying.

I love the Heartbreaker vocals, and I was a teeny girl then wanting to sing that

I always said I was gonna do it but never did but before Sunday is over, I'm gonna create my own mix to "Invincible" and add in the songs NOT added in the original album.

As Marvin Gaye said of young MJ: “Michael will never lose the quality that separates the merely sentimental from the truly heartfelt, "It’s rooted in the blues, and no matter what genre Michael is singing, that boy’s got the blues.”

Joe Vogel tweeted this (author of upcoming book Man In The Music) maybe its gonna be included in the book

HAPPYPERSON said:

As Marvin Gaye said of young MJ: “Michael will never lose the quality that separates the merely sentimental from the truly heartfelt, "It’s rooted in the blues, and no matter what genre Michael is singing, that boy’s got the blues.”

Joe Vogel tweeted this (author of upcoming book Man In The Music) maybe its gonna be included in the book

that's great, one of Michaels role models and a man who was threatened by all that prodigal talent when Mike was only 12, great quote.

HAPPYPERSON said:

As Marvin Gaye said of young MJ: “Michael will never lose the quality that separates the merely sentimental from the truly heartfelt, "It’s rooted in the blues, and no matter what genre Michael is singing, that boy’s got the blues.”

Joe Vogel tweeted this (author of upcoming book Man In The Music) maybe its gonna be included in the book

Marvin ain't never lied man...

HAPPYPERSON said:

As Marvin Gaye said of young MJ: “Michael will never lose the quality that separates the merely sentimental from the truly heartfelt, "It’s rooted in the blues, and no matter what genre Michael is singing, that boy’s got the blues.”

Joe Vogel tweeted this (author of upcoming book Man In The Music) maybe its gonna be included in the book

i have seen this quote many times over the years, and i found it to be poignant coming from marvin. i always imagined michael sensed something similar in michael that he saw in himself, since they were both abused as children.

HAPPYPERSON said:

As Marvin Gaye said of young MJ: “Michael will never lose the quality that separates the merely sentimental from the truly heartfelt, "It’s rooted in the blues, and no matter what genre Michael is singing, that boy’s got the blues.”

Joe Vogel tweeted this (author of upcoming book Man In The Music) maybe its gonna be included in the book

I've never read this quote. Great one. Thanks for posting.

Timmy84 said:

I always said I was gonna do it but never did but before Sunday is over, I'm gonna create my own mix to "Invincible" and add in the songs NOT added in the original album.

Make sure you post it here.

Another Cascio song called "Soldier Boy":

http://www.box.net/shared/afj0p9y81s

It's not Michael, but I'm sure you'll figure that one out for yourself...

MattyJam said:

Another Cascio song called "Soldier Boy":

http://www.box.net/shared/afj0p9y81s

It's not Michael, but I'm sure you'll figure that one out for yourself...

God , Someone should do something regarding the fraudascio songs , I mean , those songs will add more damage and suspicion regarding any authentic , real Mj songs.....even if there are real MJ songs , people will still cast some doubt regrading the vocals because of those songs....fuck them.

Have you read the news of the MJ world?

Now Katherine and Joe are trying to get in on the 20% for charities. They want their illegal charity to benefit from it (= they claim the money goes to the "charity" while, in reality, goes to them. they use the so called "charity" as a mask to get the money).

The proud parents who loved their son like no one else are at it again. And they won't stop until the day they breath their last breath. Be careful executors: you're going to be hounded, lied on, schemed on until your lives become just like Michael's. Courtesy of the loving duo.

And let's not forget what the porn producer and the Jehova Witness (only when convenient, of course...hence the "porn producer") Katherine said about Michael's choreographies. Apparently, he is a copy cat. Are there any more ways to slander your son, Kate? The woman has said it all. Diane Dimond is proud!

[Edited 4/10/11 6:35am]

WetDream said:

His self harmonising is incredible. But damn that song is repetitive as hell and such an overproduced teeny girl bopper mess!

This threads dying down ain't it? Ain't checked it in months, but notice that post count increasing little. Where you all gone?

Had a dance battle at the local underground dance club the other day, i go with my brother who is an incredible mover and we put people to shame, naturally. Anyway, i was battling this guy and he made the mistake of doing MJ for one turn, you know, using the "aww he's tributing MJ, he must win" card....little did he know of my past fandom! I did MJ proud and proceeded to resurrect past memories of practicing his moves daily growing up. Needless to say, that was the last turn taken.

Just thought i'd share that even though i'm sure a lot of you think i want to kill MJ's kids. Oh and my song chosen was Jam. Not that i particularly like it, but i was doing a lot of Dangerous era moves.

Around this era, Michael Jackson was trying to be like N'sync which is, indeed, honourable (... ). The entire Invincible disc is full of teeny-booper cheese. That is, as a matter of fact, a step up from his previous albums where only the ballads where teeny-booper cheese.

Yes, the thread is dying. That's because of the everlasting pics and videos which do not, in any way, add anything to absolutely anything. The thread is also full of people whose common sense and all-round intelligence can be deemed lightweight. You know, the main requisites to be a Jackson bunch fan.

You did "Jam"?! And you actually mantained a straight face during the rap part? If so, I applaud you.

Anyway, It's harder to do it while hearing the unintentionally hilarious "In the Closet".

Stay tuned, though: Michael's parents and siblings, whose values, intelligence, behaviour, common sense and all-round morality forces us to elevate Charles Manson to A-list human, are just in the middle of their schemes to get money. Meanwhile, Murray is on his way to be exonorated from a doomed trial. That is: until your patience can no longer take it and you'll go back to sanity and just great music; the Prince fandom.

Rob Hoffman posted this on Gearslutz about Much Too Soon

It was recorded very early on during the HIStory sessions. I believe at the time we only had the very beginnings of Stranger in Moscow, maybe the first part of the groove on They Don't Care . . . . MJ as working at Sony studios with Brad Buxer most of the time, and the rest of us were over at the Hit Factory doing odd bits of work, and mixing. Michael came in one day and said he had an idea and needed a guitar player. So they called in a local session guy, Jeff Mirinov.

He sat with MJ in the iso-booth and Michael patiently sang every note of every chord, and the melody. He had the whole thing in his head. Once Jeff had it down, Michael came into the control room and sang live while Jeff did some takes. He used an SM-57 into Bruce's Neve 1084's into an 1176, silver face, set at 20:1 just to tame the peaks. The three of us sat at the console, and I believe we did about 5 or 6 takes. All of them amazing. We recorded to 2" 24 track analog of course (Studer), 3M 996 with dolby SR. It would have been transferred to Sony 3348 for archiving, and possible overdubs. But the song was shelved and never brought up again. I was pretty shocked, one of my favorite MJ songs of all time.

Pretty magical at the time, my first vocal session with MJ, Bruce driving the ship, and Michael nailing every take perfectly sitting next to me. Tough to beat that !

I listened on iTunes, and that's Much Too Soon for sure, but it's impossible to tell if that's the version we recorded during History. The version we worked on was not orchestrated to that degree. No accordian, no harmonica solo, and I don't recall a guitar solo either. But ours could have been the foundation for the released version, I just can't tell.

As for it being the same as the song 'Learned My Lesson' from the 80's, I have no idea.

MOL said:

WetDream said:

His self harmonising is incredible. But damn that song is repetitive as hell and such an overproduced teeny girl bopper mess!

This threads dying down ain't it? Ain't checked it in months, but notice that post count increasing little. Where you all gone?

Had a dance battle at the local underground dance club the other day, i go with my brother who is an incredible mover and we put people to shame, naturally. Anyway, i was battling this guy and he made the mistake of doing MJ for one turn, you know, using the "aww he's tributing MJ, he must win" card....little did he know of my past fandom! I did MJ proud and proceeded to resurrect past memories of practicing his moves daily growing up. Needless to say, that was the last turn taken.

Just thought i'd share that even though i'm sure a lot of you think i want to kill MJ's kids. Oh and my song chosen was Jam. Not that i particularly like it, but i was doing a lot of Dangerous era moves.

Around this era, Michael Jackson was trying to be like N'sync which is, indeed, honourable (... ). The entire Invincible disc is full of teeny-booper cheese. That is, as a matter of fact, a step up from his previous albums where only the ballads where teeny-booper cheese.

Yes, the thread is dying. That's because of the everlasting pics and videos which do not, in any way, add anything to absolutely anything. The thread is also full of people whose common sense and all-round intelligence can be deemed lightweight. You know, the main requisites to be a Jackson bunch fan.

You did "Jam"?! And you actually mantained a straight face during the rap part? If so, I applaud you.

Anyway, It's harder to do it while hearing the unintentionally hilarious "In the Closet".

Stay tuned, though: Michael's parents and siblings, whose values, intelligence, behaviour, common sense and all-round morality forces us to elevate Charles Manson to A-list human, are just in the middle of their schemes to get money. Meanwhile, Murray is on his way to be exonorated from a doomed trial. That is: until your patience can no longer take it and you'll go back to sanity and just great music; the Prince fandom.

Then why do you continue to post in it?

bboy87 said:

MOL said:

Around this era, Michael Jackson was trying to be like N'sync which is, indeed, honourable (... ). The entire Invincible disc is full of teeny-booper cheese. That is, as a matter of fact, a step up from his previous albums where only the ballads where teeny-booper cheese.

Yes, the thread is dying. That's because of the everlasting pics and videos which do not, in any way, add anything to absolutely anything. The thread is also full of people whose common sense and all-round intelligence can be deemed lightweight. You know, the main requisites to be a Jackson bunch fan.

You did "Jam"?! And you actually mantained a straight face during the rap part? If so, I applaud you.

Anyway, It's harder to do it while hearing the unintentionally hilarious "In the Closet".

Stay tuned, though: Michael's parents and siblings, whose values, intelligence, behaviour, common sense and all-round morality forces us to elevate Charles Manson to A-list human, are just in the middle of their schemes to get money. Meanwhile, Murray is on his way to be exonorated from a doomed trial. That is: until your patience can no longer take it and you'll go back to sanity and just great music; the Prince fandom.

Then why do you continue to post in it?

Until today, I hadn't posted for a lonnnnnng time. Besides, I post for the kibbles, Timmys and Wetdreams of the thread.

Besides, aren't you the one who enjoys watching pro-wrestling? In that case, imagine the chairman of the WWE, Macmahon (I still remember some things), screaming "SHUT UUUP".

MOL said:

bboy87 said:

Then why do you continue to post in it?

Until today, I hadn't posted for a lonnnnnng time. Besides, I post for the kibbles, Timmys and Wetdreams of the thread.

Besides, aren't you the one who enjoys watching pro-wrestling? In that case, imagine the chairman of the WWE, Macmahon (I still remember some things), screaming "SHUT UUUP".

If that's how you see it plus tell people to shut up, fine

[Edited 4/10/11 7:37am]

MOL said:

Stay tuned, though: Michael's parents and siblings, whose values, intelligence, behaviour, common sense and all-round morality forces us to elevate Charles Manson to A-list human, are just in the middle of their schemes to get money. Meanwhile, Murray is on his way to be exonorated from a doomed trial. That is: until your patience can no longer take it and you'll go back to sanity and just great music; the Prince fandom.

The irony is that you are the main one that keeps talking about all the drama in the Jackson family and never said one thing about the music in all the time I have lurked and posted in this thread for, almost, the last 3 years this thread has been in existence. Not once.

The other thing is that if you go into the Prince and More forum, right now, the threads with the most replies are the ones that are non-music related. Which goes to show that even for all the music, if Prince had as much bullshit as MJ did going on in his life, most of the posters would be just as preoccupied with it.

[Edited 4/10/11 8:08am]