alphastreet said:

trueiopian said:

False. Janet was the one that opened doors for them.

I know they said that and it lead to more success but they were producing for SOS Band and others too

Basically. But to be fair Janet and Jimmy & Terry wouldn't be shit without each other so all three benefitted from one another. I just think it's annoying when people act like Janet road their coattails and Jimmy &Terry would be world renowned producers without her. Janet was the one that helped bring them to mainstream and evolve their overall style.

trueiopian said:

alphastreet said:

I know they said that and it lead to more success but they were producing for SOS Band and others too

Basically. But to be fair Janet and Jimmy & Terry wouldn't be shit without each other so all three benefitted from one another. I just think it's annoying when people act like Janet road their coattails and Jimmy &Terry would be world renowned producers without her. Janet was the one that helped bring them to mainstream and evolve their overall style.

Don't get me wrong I'm a big janet fan and they are a GREAT TEAM, I just really love them as individuals too for their work with and without janet.

trueiopian said:

HuMpThAnG said:

Then again, Control would've not been groundbreaking for her, if it wasn't for them..

Gotta feeling Jam & Lewis still would've been heard tho'

Too talented

False. Janet was the one that opened doors for them.

Again, Control would've not been groundbreaking for her, if it wasn't for them....

Her first two albums wasn't.

Good, but not groundbreaking..

How far would her music career went if it wasn't for them?

yup

HuMpThAnG said:

trueiopian said:

False. Janet was the one that opened doors for them.

Again, Control would've not been groundbreaking for her, if it wasn't for them....

Her first two albums wasn't.

Good, but not groundbreaking..

How far would her music career went if it wasn't for them?

yup

Okay, let's flip the script...

Again, Control would've not been groundbreaking for Jimmy & Terry, if it wasn't for Janet....

Their previous works wasn't.

Okay, but not groundbreaking...

How far would their production duo have gone without Janet?

Yup!

trueiopian said:

HuMpThAnG said:

Again, Control would've not been groundbreaking for her, if it wasn't for them....

Her first two albums wasn't.

Good, but not groundbreaking..

How far would her music career went if it wasn't for them?

yup

Okay, let's flip the script...

Again, Control would've not been groundbreaking for Jimmy & Terry, if it wasn't for Janet....

Their previous works wasn't.

Okay, but not groundbreaking...

How far would their production duo have gone without Janet?

Yup!

Hey, you didn't say this in your first statement

They would've gone very far, even if Janet didn't exist..

They were in demand already....

Just don't believe she would've gotten this far without them

HuMpThAnG said:

trueiopian said:

Okay, let's flip the script...

Again, Control would've not been groundbreaking for Jimmy & Terry, if it wasn't for Janet....

Their previous works wasn't.

Okay, but not groundbreaking...

How far would their production duo have gone without Janet?

Yup!

Hey, you didn't say this in your first statement

They would've gone very far, even if Janet didn't exist..

They were in demand already....

Just don't believe she would've gotten this far without them

How do you know this? You don't. You're just going off assumptions which is typical for people that go off of "ifs" and "buts".

When were Jimmy & Terry a demand prior to Janet!?!?! Now you're just making stuff up. Jimmy said that they weren't on Quincy Jones level when they worked with Janet. They weren't well known and this is straight from the horses mouth!

They wouldn't be nowhere without Janet and this is a fact.

trueiopian said:

HuMpThAnG said:

Hey, you didn't say this in your first statement

They would've gone very far, even if Janet didn't exist..

They were in demand already....

Just don't believe she would've gotten this far without them

How do you know this? You don't. You're just going off assumptions which is typical for people that go off of "ifs" and "buts".

When were Jimmy & Terry a demand prior to Janet!?!?! Now you're just making stuff up. Jimmy said that they weren't on Quincy Jones level when they worked with Janet. They weren't well known and this is straight from the horses mouth!

They wouldn't be nowhere without Janet and this is a fact.

Come on dude, just because you say "this is a fact." does not make it so. It was a symbiotic relationship and both sides befitted. They were the right producers for her at the time, and she was the right artist for them. Could she have found someone else to produce her? Of course. But as stated earlier, she had two shots at it before with little success. Could they have found someone else to sing their songs? Sure they could have. They had the SOS band, Alexander Oneal, Charelle, TLC, Yolanda Adams, Boys II Men, The Human League...these are just the folks that had hits with them. Now, would they have had the same success as Ms Jackson? (I'm nasty), most likely not. Those songs from that era fit her to a tee. But....they would have still been very successful.

leonche64 said:

trueiopian said:

How do you know this? You don't. You're just going off assumptions which is typical for people that go off of "ifs" and "buts".

When were Jimmy & Terry a demand prior to Janet!?!?! Now you're just making stuff up. Jimmy said that they weren't on Quincy Jones level when they worked with Janet. They weren't well known and this is straight from the horses mouth!

They wouldn't be nowhere without Janet and this is a fact.

Come on dude, just because you say "this is a fact." does not make it so. It was a symbiotic relationship and both sides befitted. They were the right producers for her at the time, and she was the right artist for them. Could she have found someone else to produce her? Of course. But as stated earlier, she had two shots at it before with little success. Could they have found someone else to sing their songs? Sure they could have. They had the SOS band, Alexander Oneal, Charelle, TLC, Yolanda Adams, Boys II Men, The Human League...these are just the folks that had hits with them. Now, would they have had the same success as Ms Jackson? (I'm nasty), most likely not. Those songs from that era fit her to a tee. But....they would have still been very successful.

It's also worth noting that some of the songs on 'Control' were actually intended for another artist (Sharon Bryant,the lead singer of Atlantic Starr who had just gone solo).It's a stretch to imply that Jam and Lewis wouldn't have gone far without Janet.They basically saved her career after she released two albums that weren't blockbusters.If she had done one more 'Dream Street'-type album (without their services),her career might would have suffered a premature death.

...

[Edited 3/8/11 6:52am]

SoulAlive said:

leonche64 said:

Come on dude, just because you say "this is a fact." does not make it so. It was a symbiotic relationship and both sides befitted. They were the right producers for her at the time, and she was the right artist for them. Could she have found someone else to produce her? Of course. But as stated earlier, she had two shots at it before with little success. Could they have found someone else to sing their songs? Sure they could have. They had the SOS band, Alexander Oneal, Charelle, TLC, Yolanda Adams, Boys II Men, The Human League...these are just the folks that had hits with them. Now, would they have had the same success as Ms Jackson? (I'm nasty), most likely not. Those songs from that era fit her to a tee. But....they would have still been very successful.

It's also worth noting that some of the songs on 'Control' were actually intended for another artist (Sharon Bryant,the lead singer of Atlantic Starr who had just gone solo).It's a stretch to imply that Jam and Lewis wouldn't have gone far without Janet.They basically saved her career after she released two albums that weren't blockbusters.If she had done one more 'Dream Street'-type album (without their services),her career might would have suffered a premature death.

...

[Edited 3/8/11 6:52am]

yup

[Edited 3/8/11 7:32am]

trueiopian said:

HuMpThAnG said:

Hey, you didn't say this in your first statement

They would've gone very far, even if Janet didn't exist..

They were in demand already....

Just don't believe she would've gotten this far without them

How do you know this? You don't. You're just going off assumptions which is typical for people that go off of "ifs" and "buts".

When were Jimmy & Terry a demand prior to Janet!?!?! Now you're just making stuff up. Jimmy said that they weren't on Quincy Jones level when they worked with Janet. They weren't well known and this is straight from the horses mouth!

They wouldn't be nowhere without Janet and this is a fact.

I don't doubt that they said that because the late 1980s and all that trying to crossover to pop fucked up a lot of black artists way of thinking which eventually ended up killing funk and ruining R&B.

After major crossover successes of Lionel Richie, Michael Jackson, Prince, Tina Turner, the Queen of Crossover....Ms. Shitney Houston, when the late 1980s arrived, a lot of black artists considered themselves as not well known if the white world had never heard of them as if their success with R&B sales meant nothing which is an absolutely fucked up way of thinking. Hell, Janet Jackson herself never acknowledges her songs that didn't crossover like "Young Love", "Say You Do", or "Don't Stand Another Chance" when she does anniversary albums like "Design Of A Decade: 1986-1996" and "20 Years Old" in 2006 as if her career didn't even start until white people were aware of who she was.

Jam and Lewis were already well known in the R&B world before they worked with Janet Jackson and were already in well demand. They had done work with The SOS Band, Cheryl Lynn, Change, Alexander O'Neal, Cherrelle, Captain Rapp, Thelma Houston, and more R&B artists would have eventually seeked them out.

leonche64 said:

trueiopian said:

How do you know this? You don't. You're just going off assumptions which is typical for people that go off of "ifs" and "buts".

When were Jimmy & Terry a demand prior to Janet!?!?! Now you're just making stuff up. Jimmy said that they weren't on Quincy Jones level when they worked with Janet. They weren't well known and this is straight from the horses mouth!

They wouldn't be nowhere without Janet and this is a fact.

Come on dude, just because you say "this is a fact." does not make it so. It was a symbiotic relationship and both sides befitted. They were the right producers for her at the time, and she was the right artist for them. Could she have found someone else to produce her? Of course. But as stated earlier, she had two shots at it before with little success. Could they have found someone else to sing their songs? Sure they could have. They had the SOS band, Alexander Oneal, Charelle, TLC, Yolanda Adams, Boys II Men, The Human League...these are just the folks that had hits with them. Now, would they have had the same success as Ms Jackson? (I'm nasty), most likely not. Those songs from that era fit her to a tee. But....they would have still been very successful.

All those artist you listed don't come close to what they accomplished with Janet. They wouldn't have been "very successful" without Janet. It's really not that hard to comprehend. They blew up once they did the Control album with her and the same can be said for Janet seeing as that album was her breakthrough.

vainandy said:

trueiopian said:

How do you know this? You don't. You're just going off assumptions which is typical for people that go off of "ifs" and "buts".

When were Jimmy & Terry a demand prior to Janet!?!?! Now you're just making stuff up. Jimmy said that they weren't on Quincy Jones level when they worked with Janet. They weren't well known and this is straight from the horses mouth!

They wouldn't be nowhere without Janet and this is a fact.

I don't doubt that they said that because the late 1980s and all that trying to crossover to pop fucked up a lot of black artists way of thinking which eventually ended up killing funk and ruining R&B.

After major crossover successes of Lionel Richie, Michael Jackson, Prince, Tina Turner, the Queen of Crossover....Ms. Shitney Houston, when the late 1980s arrived, a lot of black artists considered themselves as not well known if the white world had never heard of them as if their success with R&B sales meant nothing which is an absolutely fucked up way of thinking. Hell, Janet Jackson herself never acknowledges her songs that didn't crossover like "Young Love", "Say You Do", or "Don't Stand Another Chance" when she does anniversary albums like "Design Of A Decade: 1986-1996" and "20 Years Old" in 2006 as if her career didn't even start until white people were aware of who she was.

Jam and Lewis were already well known in the R&B world before they worked with Janet Jackson and were already in well demand. They had done work with The SOS Band, Cheryl Lynn, Change, Alexander O'Neal, Cherrelle, Captain Rapp, Thelma Houston, and more R&B artists would have eventually seeked them out.

R&B world? No one's doubting they would be working with R&B artists without Janet. The point is she helped them crossover in the Pop world and build the contemporary R&B sound appeals to both Pop and R&B audiences. What's so hard to comprehend? They're known for their work with Janet and people seeked to work with them because of their work with her. Duh.

trueiopian said:

vainandy said:

I don't doubt that they said that because the late 1980s and all that trying to crossover to pop fucked up a lot of black artists way of thinking which eventually ended up killing funk and ruining R&B.

After major crossover successes of Lionel Richie, Michael Jackson, Prince, Tina Turner, the Queen of Crossover....Ms. Shitney Houston, when the late 1980s arrived, a lot of black artists considered themselves as not well known if the white world had never heard of them as if their success with R&B sales meant nothing which is an absolutely fucked up way of thinking. Hell, Janet Jackson herself never acknowledges her songs that didn't crossover like "Young Love", "Say You Do", or "Don't Stand Another Chance" when she does anniversary albums like "Design Of A Decade: 1986-1996" and "20 Years Old" in 2006 as if her career didn't even start until white people were aware of who she was.

Jam and Lewis were already well known in the R&B world before they worked with Janet Jackson and were already in well demand. They had done work with The SOS Band, Cheryl Lynn, Change, Alexander O'Neal, Cherrelle, Captain Rapp, Thelma Houston, and more R&B artists would have eventually seeked them out.

R&B world? No one's doubting they would be working with R&B artists without Janet. The point is she helped them crossover in the Pop world and build the contemporary R&B sound appeals to both Pop and R&B audiences. What's so hard to comprehend? They're known for their work with Janet and people seeked to work with them because of their work with her. Duh.

And look what happened when the pop world got fully into the R&B sound, not just Janet's sound, but as a whole. Funk died and adult contemporary and shit hop took over and never left. In other words, R&B as a whole became weaker so as far as I'm concerned, crossing over is the worst thing an R&B artist can do.

Hell, just look how weak Jimmy and Terry became themselves once they started having major crossover success. Hell, I wish I could just take an eraser and erase the entire 1990s. They would have been better off never having a crossover hit so those doors to the artists that she opened for them was a bad thing, not a good one.

.

.

.

[Edited 3/8/11 14:15pm]

trueiopian said:

vainandy said:

I don't doubt that they said that because the late 1980s and all that trying to crossover to pop fucked up a lot of black artists way of thinking which eventually ended up killing funk and ruining R&B.

After major crossover successes of Lionel Richie, Michael Jackson, Prince, Tina Turner, the Queen of Crossover....Ms. Shitney Houston, when the late 1980s arrived, a lot of black artists considered themselves as not well known if the white world had never heard of them as if their success with R&B sales meant nothing which is an absolutely fucked up way of thinking. Hell, Janet Jackson herself never acknowledges her songs that didn't crossover like "Young Love", "Say You Do", or "Don't Stand Another Chance" when she does anniversary albums like "Design Of A Decade: 1986-1996" and "20 Years Old" in 2006 as if her career didn't even start until white people were aware of who she was.

Jam and Lewis were already well known in the R&B world before they worked with Janet Jackson and were already in well demand. They had done work with The SOS Band, Cheryl Lynn, Change, Alexander O'Neal, Cherrelle, Captain Rapp, Thelma Houston, and more R&B artists would have eventually seeked them out.

R&B world? No one's doubting they would be working with R&B artists without Janet. The point is she helped them crossover in the Pop world and build the contemporary R&B sound appeals to both Pop and R&B audiences. What's so hard to comprehend? They're known for their work with Janet and people seeked to work with them because of their work with her. Duh.

And without them, she wouldn't have had it either..

She was just an R & B artist as well, riding on her family name.....yup

Thing is, when Janet first got with Jimmy and Terry, there were snickers going around that they wouldn't pull it off. That Janet was too pretentious. (Coming from the family she came from, not surprised) She moved to Minneapolis and decided to find out about life that led to her making "Control" in the first place. Then when it did become a success, people snickered that she was a one-album wonder and that she wasn't even as talented as Michael because she never did a concert tour to support the album. That's why she worked twice as hard to make the "Rhythm Nation" tour a huge success.

I think the main reason Janet doesn't focus on her 1982-1984 period of her music career was because it was associated with her father. She really didn't wanna do music. When she was little, she wanted to be a jockey because she loved horses but Joe and Katherine told her to become a performer because, "you're a Jackson, you have to." She had no choice so here she's seven and she's thrust into the spotlight but not being totally comfortable with it. Then when she got older, she (like La Toya) wanted to go to college but Joseph said "no you're gonna release an album" and again this excuse came: "you're a Jackson".

Like La Toya, Janet had some good producers on her first two albums. And like La Toya, her heart wasn't totally in it. I doubt Rebbie still didn't feel like doing music when she did "Centipede" and she was already in her thirties.

Reason why Janet suddenly became a pop superstar and not her other sisters was because she realized that she had people in her corner that advised her to leave Joe's nest for good and this helped to set up the superstardom she eventually gained. I don't even doubt that La Toya (and to a shorter extent, Rebbie) was jealous that their baby sister was just as popular as their little brother.

I don't think La Toya ever really took her music career seriously. That's why she had to do other things to make money and now she has more money than some of her brothers so she had to do something. That's why she's doing the reality show now.

HuMpThAnG said:

trueiopian said:

R&B world? No one's doubting they would be working with R&B artists without Janet. The point is she helped them crossover in the Pop world and build the contemporary R&B sound appeals to both Pop and R&B audiences. What's so hard to comprehend? They're known for their work with Janet and people seeked to work with them because of their work with her. Duh.

And without them, she wouldn't have had it either..

I've already stated that it goes both ways. It seems that people on here lack comprehension skills.

trueiopian said:

HuMpThAnG said:

And without them, she wouldn't have had it either..

I've already stated that it goes both ways. It seems that people on here lack comprehension skills.

nah, you're making it sound one way

It seems that some people on here didn't take their anti-diva pills today

HuMpThAnG said:

trueiopian said:

I've already stated that it goes both ways. It seems that people on here lack comprehension skills.

nah, you're making it sound one way

It seems that some people on here didn't take their anti-diva pills today

How? Look at reply #60.

You must be talking about yourself

trueiopian said:

leonche64 said:

Come on dude, just because you say "this is a fact." does not make it so. It was a symbiotic relationship and both sides befitted. They were the right producers for her at the time, and she was the right artist for them. Could she have found someone else to produce her? Of course. But as stated earlier, she had two shots at it before with little success. Could they have found someone else to sing their songs? Sure they could have. They had the SOS band, Alexander Oneal, Charelle, TLC, Yolanda Adams, Boys II Men, The Human League...these are just the folks that had hits with them. Now, would they have had the same success as Ms Jackson? (I'm nasty), most likely not. Those songs from that era fit her to a tee. But....they would have still been very successful.

All those artist you listed don't come close to what they accomplished with Janet. They wouldn't have been "very successful" without Janet. It's really not that hard to comprehend. They blew up once they did the Control album with her and the same can be said for Janet seeing as that album was her breakthrough.

Ok, you are a post "skimmer". I clearly stated the words "most likely not", concerning the level that Ms Jackson (I'm still nasty), had under their tutilage. But come on dude, few artist in history have had that level of success as that combination of artist and producers. Yep, not even Prince has sold as many records. It was nominated for 12 Grammys, I believe that is still a record. So say they never meet and give the songs to someone else. Say they only sell 10% of what they did. That is still very successful.

vainandy said:

trueiopian said:

How do you know this? You don't. You're just going off assumptions which is typical for people that go off of "ifs" and "buts".

When were Jimmy & Terry a demand prior to Janet!?!?! Now you're just making stuff up. Jimmy said that they weren't on Quincy Jones level when they worked with Janet. They weren't well known and this is straight from the horses mouth!

They wouldn't be nowhere without Janet and this is a fact.

I don't doubt that they said that because the late 1980s and all that trying to crossover to pop fucked up a lot of black artists way of thinking which eventually ended up killing funk and ruining R&B.

After major crossover successes of Lionel Richie, Michael Jackson, Prince, Tina Turner, the Queen of Crossover....Ms. Shitney Houston, when the late 1980s arrived, a lot of black artists considered themselves as not well known if the white world had never heard of them as if their success with R&B sales meant nothing which is an absolutely fucked up way of thinking. Hell, Janet Jackson herself never acknowledges her songs that didn't crossover like "Young Love", "Say You Do", or "Don't Stand Another Chance" when she does anniversary albums like "Design Of A Decade: 1986-1996" and "20 Years Old" in 2006 as if her career didn't even start until white people were aware of who she was.

Jam and Lewis were already well known in the R&B world before they worked with Janet Jackson and were already in well demand. They had done work with The SOS Band, Cheryl Lynn, Change, Alexander O'Neal, Cherrelle, Captain Rapp, Thelma Houston, and more R&B artists would have eventually seeked them out.

I do find it odd that Janet (while, Janet, along with A&M and others) discount those first albums SO much. However, IMHO, those albums were DEFINATELY trying to crossover. The sound was very pop. Especially "Dream Street"...she worked with Girigio Moroder for part of it and while the sound wasn't exactly "I Feel Love", it was certainly not R&B like the stuff that Jam and Lewis were doing with artists like SOS, who were truly big in the R&B world. This is only my opinion since I wasn't exactly listening to R&B radio when I was 4, so I might be waaay off. Maybe it's ironic that Janet's crossover happened by approaching a more R&B sound.

leonche64 said:

trueiopian said:

All those artist you listed don't come close to what they accomplished with Janet. They wouldn't have been "very successful" without Janet. It's really not that hard to comprehend. They blew up once they did the Control album with her and the same can be said for Janet seeing as that album was her breakthrough.

Ok, you are a post "skimmer". I clearly stated the words "most likely not", concerning the level that Ms Jackson (I'm still nasty), had under their tutilage. But come on dude, few artist in history have had that level of success as that combination of artist and producers. Yep, not even Prince has sold as many records. It was nominated for 12 Grammys, I believe that is still a record. So say they never meet and give the songs to someone else. Say they only sell 10% of what they did. That is still very successful.

First of all, I'm not a "dude". Second, Jimmy & Terry reached great success WITH Janet, not WITHOUT. This isn't hard to comprehend. Janet + Jimmy & Terry = #1 hits, millions of records sold, etc. Janet - Jimmy & Terry = no #1 hits, few 100 thousand albums sold, etc. ¿Comprende?

VinnyM27 said:

vainandy said:

I don't doubt that they said that because the late 1980s and all that trying to crossover to pop fucked up a lot of black artists way of thinking which eventually ended up killing funk and ruining R&B.

After major crossover successes of Lionel Richie, Michael Jackson, Prince, Tina Turner, the Queen of Crossover....Ms. Shitney Houston, when the late 1980s arrived, a lot of black artists considered themselves as not well known if the white world had never heard of them as if their success with R&B sales meant nothing which is an absolutely fucked up way of thinking. Hell, Janet Jackson herself never acknowledges her songs that didn't crossover like "Young Love", "Say You Do", or "Don't Stand Another Chance" when she does anniversary albums like "Design Of A Decade: 1986-1996" and "20 Years Old" in 2006 as if her career didn't even start until white people were aware of who she was.

Jam and Lewis were already well known in the R&B world before they worked with Janet Jackson and were already in well demand. They had done work with The SOS Band, Cheryl Lynn, Change, Alexander O'Neal, Cherrelle, Captain Rapp, Thelma Houston, and more R&B artists would have eventually seeked them out.

I do find it odd that Janet (while, Janet, along with A&M and others) discount those first albums SO much. However, IMHO, those albums were DEFINATELY trying to crossover. The sound was very pop. Especially "Dream Street"...she worked with Girigio Moroder for part of it and while the sound wasn't exactly "I Feel Love", it was certainly not R&B like the stuff that Jam and Lewis were doing with artists like SOS, who were truly big in the R&B world. This is only my opinion since I wasn't exactly listening to R&B radio when I was 4, so I might be waaay off. Maybe it's ironic that Janet's crossover happened by approaching a more R&B sound.

I agree!!! Janet Jackson was bubblegum pop/soul for the most part (hell "Come Give Your Love to Me" could've been the mainstream hit if A&M had promoted it! It got up to frigging number 58 for chrissakes!) and Dream Street was definitely a POP ALBUM. Then all of a sudden Janet gets with Jimmy & Terry and her sound is more R&B/funk based! I actually think if A&M did promote the first album, it would've been real popular. Guess they were only selling it as a name and since Janet had no say (and Joseph did), that's why it bombed. Of course Dream Street was unfocused. I think had Janet released the albums (with a different manager), it would've been a success. I often think Joseph was as much to blame for the albums' failure, same with La Toya. But the Jacksons didn't trust many people. Janet saw the writing on the wall before La Toya saw it in this case and John McClain was like "go with Jimmy & Terry". The rest is history. Janet was smart whereas La Toya didn't know where to go.

[Edited 3/10/11 13:59pm]

VinnyM27 said:

vainandy said:

I don't doubt that they said that because the late 1980s and all that trying to crossover to pop fucked up a lot of black artists way of thinking which eventually ended up killing funk and ruining R&B.

After major crossover successes of Lionel Richie, Michael Jackson, Prince, Tina Turner, the Queen of Crossover....Ms. Shitney Houston, when the late 1980s arrived, a lot of black artists considered themselves as not well known if the white world had never heard of them as if their success with R&B sales meant nothing which is an absolutely fucked up way of thinking. Hell, Janet Jackson herself never acknowledges her songs that didn't crossover like "Young Love", "Say You Do", or "Don't Stand Another Chance" when she does anniversary albums like "Design Of A Decade: 1986-1996" and "20 Years Old" in 2006 as if her career didn't even start until white people were aware of who she was.

Jam and Lewis were already well known in the R&B world before they worked with Janet Jackson and were already in well demand. They had done work with The SOS Band, Cheryl Lynn, Change, Alexander O'Neal, Cherrelle, Captain Rapp, Thelma Houston, and more R&B artists would have eventually seeked them out.

I do find it odd that Janet (while, Janet, along with A&M and others) discount those first albums SO much. However, IMHO, those albums were DEFINATELY trying to crossover. The sound was very pop. Especially "Dream Street"...she worked with Girigio Moroder for part of it and while the sound wasn't exactly "I Feel Love", it was certainly not R&B like the stuff that Jam and Lewis were doing with artists like SOS, who were truly big in the R&B world. This is only my opinion since I wasn't exactly listening to R&B radio when I was 4, so I might be waaay off. Maybe it's ironic that Janet's crossover happened by approaching a more R&B sound.

That's because "Control" was released in 1986. R&B saw a drastic change beginning in 1985, not only with a lot of people trying to capture Shitney Houston's success by making crossover adult contemporary but the funkier side of R&B was people trying to capture Prince's success of "Purple Rain". Damn near everyone that wasn't doing adult contemporary was doing their version of the "Minneapolis Sound" and since Janet's album had Jam and Lewis giving her that sound, her timing was finally right that time to actually crossover because black artists were becoming more acceptable on white radio by then.

vainandy said:

VinnyM27 said:

I do find it odd that Janet (while, Janet, along with A&M and others) discount those first albums SO much. However, IMHO, those albums were DEFINATELY trying to crossover. The sound was very pop. Especially "Dream Street"...she worked with Girigio Moroder for part of it and while the sound wasn't exactly "I Feel Love", it was certainly not R&B like the stuff that Jam and Lewis were doing with artists like SOS, who were truly big in the R&B world. This is only my opinion since I wasn't exactly listening to R&B radio when I was 4, so I might be waaay off. Maybe it's ironic that Janet's crossover happened by approaching a more R&B sound.

That's because "Control" was released in 1986. R&B saw a drastic change beginning in 1985, not only with a lot of people trying to capture Shitney Houston's success by making crossover adult contemporary but the funkier side of R&B was people trying to capture Prince's success of "Purple Rain". Damn near everyone that wasn't doing adult contemporary was doing their version of the "Minneapolis Sound" and since Janet's album had Jam and Lewis giving her that sound, her timing was finally right that time to actually crossover because black artists were becoming more acceptable on white radio by then.

Jimmy & Terry often said they were trying to make the blackest album of all time. Janet technically was always a pop artist but mixing her pop sound with J&T worked to the tilt. It wasn't even an attempt to "cross over". That's because it just so happened that 1985, 1986 were the years were when many black acts (groups and solo artists) suddenly found themselves popular when they would've struggled in the years after disco hit its peak.

They wanted to make the funkiest record with Control that would be in every black household, as the Design of a Decade booklet put it.

Timmy84 said:

VinnyM27 said:

I do find it odd that Janet (while, Janet, along with A&M and others) discount those first albums SO much. However, IMHO, those albums were DEFINATELY trying to crossover. The sound was very pop. Especially "Dream Street"...she worked with Girigio Moroder for part of it and while the sound wasn't exactly "I Feel Love", it was certainly not R&B like the stuff that Jam and Lewis were doing with artists like SOS, who were truly big in the R&B world. This is only my opinion since I wasn't exactly listening to R&B radio when I was 4, so I might be waaay off. Maybe it's ironic that Janet's crossover happened by approaching a more R&B sound.

I agree!!! Janet Jackson was bubblegum pop/soul for the most part (hell "Come Give Your Love to Me" could've been the mainstream hit if A&M had promoted it! It got up to frigging number 58 for chrissakes!) and Dream Street was definitely a POP ALBUM. Then all of a sudden Janet gets with Jimmy & Terry and her sound is more R&B/funk based! I actually think if A&M did promote the first album, it would've been real popular. Guess they were only selling it as a name and since Janet had no say (and Joseph did), that's why it bombed. Of course Dream Street was unfocused. I think had Janet released the albums (with a different manager), it would've been a success. I often think Joseph was as much to blame for the albums' failure, same with La Toya. But the Jacksons didn't trust many people. Janet saw the writing on the wall before La Toya saw it in this case and John McClain was like "go with Jimmy & Terry". The rest is history. Janet was smart whereas La Toya didn't know where to go.

[Edited 3/10/11 13:59pm]

She could have made a straight up hard rock song and it would have flopped because it was 1982 and white radio hated most black acts that weren't softer and safer like Lionel Richie because it was still during the disco backlash and any black artist with any tempo to their music whatsoever, was labeled disco even though it wasn't. It was their way of keeping black artists from taking back over the white airwaves like they did during the disco era. That was the real reason for the disco backlash in the first place. They won't tell you that but it is. They hated to see white radio dominated by a form of music by blacks, gays, and hispanics. They hated the hell out of it.

Hell, white radio didn't even play Prince's "Why You Wanna Treat Me So Bad" which was straight up hard rock but was occurring right at the time when the disco backlash first began. Black radio played the hell out of it though and "Sexy Dancer" and "Still Waiting" also. But just a few months earlier before the disco backlash, white radio was playing "I Wanna Be Your Lover". Another example, just look how success Michael Jackson's "Off The Wall" was on white radio. But with the "Thriller" album, CBS records had to threaten to pull all their videos from other artists if MTV didn't play Michael's videos.

vainandy said:

VinnyM27 said:

I do find it odd that Janet (while, Janet, along with A&M and others) discount those first albums SO much. However, IMHO, those albums were DEFINATELY trying to crossover. The sound was very pop. Especially "Dream Street"...she worked with Girigio Moroder for part of it and while the sound wasn't exactly "I Feel Love", it was certainly not R&B like the stuff that Jam and Lewis were doing with artists like SOS, who were truly big in the R&B world. This is only my opinion since I wasn't exactly listening to R&B radio when I was 4, so I might be waaay off. Maybe it's ironic that Janet's crossover happened by approaching a more R&B sound.

That's because "Control" was released in 1986. R&B saw a drastic change beginning in 1985, not only with a lot of people trying to capture Shitney Houston's success by making crossover adult contemporary but the funkier side of R&B was people trying to capture Prince's success of "Purple Rain". Damn near everyone that wasn't doing adult contemporary was doing their version of the "Minneapolis Sound" and since Janet's album had Jam and Lewis giving her that sound, her timing was finally right that time to actually crossover because black artists were becoming more acceptable on white radio by then.

That's right

vainandy said:

Timmy84 said:

I agree!!! Janet Jackson was bubblegum pop/soul for the most part (hell "Come Give Your Love to Me" could've been the mainstream hit if A&M had promoted it! It got up to frigging number 58 for chrissakes!) and Dream Street was definitely a POP ALBUM. Then all of a sudden Janet gets with Jimmy & Terry and her sound is more R&B/funk based! I actually think if A&M did promote the first album, it would've been real popular. Guess they were only selling it as a name and since Janet had no say (and Joseph did), that's why it bombed. Of course Dream Street was unfocused. I think had Janet released the albums (with a different manager), it would've been a success. I often think Joseph was as much to blame for the albums' failure, same with La Toya. But the Jacksons didn't trust many people. Janet saw the writing on the wall before La Toya saw it in this case and John McClain was like "go with Jimmy & Terry". The rest is history. Janet was smart whereas La Toya didn't know where to go.

[Edited 3/10/11 13:59pm]

She could have made a straight up hard rock song and it would have flopped because it was 1982 and white radio hated most black acts that weren't softer and safer like Lionel Richie because it was still during the disco backlash and any black artist with any tempo to their music whatsoever, was labeled disco even though it wasn't. It was their way of keeping black artists from taking back over the white airwaves like they did during the disco era. That was the real reason for the disco backlash in the first place. They won't tell you that but it is. They hated to see white radio dominated by a form of music by blacks, gays, and hispanics. They hated the hell out of it.

Hell, white radio didn't even play Prince's "Why You Wanna Treat Me So Bad" which was straight up hard rock but was occurring right at the time when the disco backlash first began. Black radio played the hell out of it though and "Sexy Dancer" and "Still Waiting" also. But just a few months earlier before the disco backlash, white radio was playing "I Wanna Be Your Lover". Another example, just look how success Michael Jackson's "Off The Wall" was on white radio. But with the "Thriller" album, CBS records had to threaten to pull all their videos from other artists if MTV didn't play Michael's videos.

Thank God for black radio

You heard the whole album, before you actually bought it

Or recorded it on a cassette tape

Those were the days

trueiopian said:

leonche64 said:

Ok, you are a post "skimmer". I clearly stated the words "most likely not", concerning the level that Ms Jackson (I'm still nasty), had under their tutilage. But come on dude, few artist in history have had that level of success as that combination of artist and producers. Yep, not even Prince has sold as many records. It was nominated for 12 Grammys, I believe that is still a record. So say they never meet and give the songs to someone else. Say they only sell 10% of what they did. That is still very successful.

First of all, I'm not a "dude". Second, Jimmy & Terry reached great success WITH Janet, not WITHOUT. This isn't hard to comprehend. Janet + Jimmy & Terry = #1 hits, millions of records sold, etc. Janet - Jimmy & Terry = no #1 hits, few 100 thousand albums sold, etc. ¿Comprende?

Dude, quit skimming my post and then getting reactionary. We are saying the same thing here.

What an idiot...