MickyDolenz said:

gdiminished said:

Why? You have musicians and arrangers who know theory and harmony, something your average MC knows nothing about.

The Beatles, Michael Jackson, The Rolling Stones, B.B. King, James Brown, and many other popular acts and producers don't know theory or how to read or write musical notation. They play & write by ear. John Lennon has said several times that he doesn't know what people are talking about when they discuss music terms about The Beatles music. Knowing theory has nothing to do with being a musician.

i was actually going to respond to the above statement by SPECIFICALLY mentioning that michael could not read a lick of music notation, but i knew someone else would do it. his ability to play instruments was also limited- he played a little bit of drums, piano and guitar, but he was proficient in none of them. however, i find him to be extremely adept at arranging. his process is phenomenal.

marvin gaye was another person who could not read music, as far as i know (tim is the expert on mr. gaye; i know more about michael and STEVIE than i do about most other artists, admittedly).

but the whole concept of who or what an artist is is relative. so much of music is based on an oral tradition; to say that a musician must be skilled in theory leaves out many elder (non-western) traditions. so much of music was used to convey codes- for instance, a lot of gospel music was code for following the underground railroad. early blues and jazz music for many was the equivalent of how people see rap music today- it was filthy and done for, and produced by the dregs of society.

when nat hentoff began writing about it, for example, then it resonated with those not 'in the know', since it was now being written about in terms of notation. a lot of artists like john coltrane i believe actually rejected a lot of the concepts hentoff presented; because many of the artists played simply to reach a higher consciousness.

we won't be allowed to grow if we continue to keep art in a box. i have my preferrences as well; but again, music and art are relative. everyone experiences them differently.

MJJstudent said:

MickyDolenz said:

The Beatles, Michael Jackson, The Rolling Stones, B.B. King, James Brown, and many other popular acts and producers don't know theory or how to read or write musical notation. They play & write by ear. John Lennon has said several times that he doesn't know what people are talking about when they discuss music terms about The Beatles music. Knowing theory has nothing to do with being a musician.

i was actually going to respond to the above statement by SPECIFICALLY mentioning that michael could not read a lick of music notation, but i knew someone else would do it. his ability to play instruments was also limited- he played a little bit of drums, piano and guitar, but he was proficient in none of them. however, i find him to be extremely adept at arranging. his process is phenomenal.

marvin gaye was another person who could not read music, as far as i know (tim is the expert on mr. gaye; i know more about michael and STEVIE than i do about most other artists, admittedly).

but the whole concept of who or what an artist is is relative. so much of music is based on an oral tradition; to say that a musician must be skilled in theory leaves out many elder (non-western) traditions. so much of music was used to convey codes- for instance, a lot of gospel music was code for following the underground railroad. early blues and jazz music for many was the equivalent of how people see rap music today- it was filthy and done for, and produced by the dregs of society.

when nat hentoff began writing about it, for example, then it resonated with those not 'in the know', since it was now being written about in terms of notation. a lot of artists like john coltrane i believe actually rejected a lot of the concepts hentoff presented; because many of the artists played simply to reach a higher consciousness.

we won't be allowed to grow if we continue to keep art in a box. i have my preferrences as well; but again, music and art are relative. everyone experiences them differently.

HOLD UP!!!! WHAT????

I don't know where you guys are getting your inacurrate information from but you are totally wrong...

The Beatles DO know their music theory very well, as well as the Rolling Stones, BB King, and MJ too...

Now maybe YOU are confused.... Just because you don't READ music doesn't mean you don't have a basic understanding of chords and chord progressions and scales.

Trust me, if you think all those artist you mentioned do not understand how chords work and what notes go with what chords and what the chord progressions are for the blues then you are crazy... And yes knowing those things constitute MUSIC THEORY. Now I'm not saying that they understand all the advanced concepts that a jazz musician would know, but I am absolutely positive they understand basic music theory. And you don't have to be able to read music notation in order to understand music theory.

MJ is the only artist you mentioned that I'm not 100% positive on in terms of how much music theory the man must have known but he must have had at least a basic understanding of chords and scales to be able to compose songs, as well as from doing vocal exercises.

**** AND the original poster is absolutely correct....

Rappers may be considered "artists" but they are definitely NOT MUSICIANS.

Yes they make art with samples and computers but unless they can play an instrument they are not musicians. If I make a painting with a software program, does that make me a painter??????

Don't confuse "artist" or "poet" with "musician."

[Edited 2/28/11 9:50am]

emilio319 said:

**** AND the original poster is absolutely correct....

Rappers may be considered "artists" but they are definitely NOT MUSICIANS.

Yes they make art with samples and computers but unless they can play an instrument they are not musicians. If I make a painting with a software program, does that make me a painter??????

Don't confuse "artist" or "poet" with "musician."

[Edited 2/28/11 9:50am]

That confusion will NEVER end from the those who just don't KNOW any better.

emilio319 said:

I don't know where you guys are getting your inacurrate information from but you are totally wrong...

The Beatles DO know their music theory very well, as well as the Rolling Stones, BB King, and MJ too...

The acts themselves said in interviews they didn't know. Playing by ear and knowing theory are two different things. It's like a person can talk and understand what another person is saying, but are illiterate. A person doesn't need to know what a noun or verb is to speak either.

MickyDolenz said:

emilio319 said:

I don't know where you guys are getting your inacurrate information from but you are totally wrong...

The Beatles DO know their music theory very well, as well as the Rolling Stones, BB King, and MJ too...

The acts themselves said in interviews they didn't know. Playing by ear and knowing theory are two different things. It's like a person can talk and understand what another person is saying, but are illiterate. A person doesn't need to know what a noun or verb is to speak either.

MickyDolenz, with all due respect, you are not understanding...

I am not referring to "playing by ear." I am referring to them actually knowing music theory, and they definitely do. Understanding music theory does not necessarily include being able to read music.

So for example, if Paul McCartney says to John Lennon, hey man, this song is in the key of C and the chords are C to G to A min to F, they both know what notes go with those chords. THAT is understanding music theory. If Keith Richards tells the band that they are gonna play a blues in the key of A, everyone in the band knows the chords are A7, D7, E7....

Now if you don't play an instrument, that may sound like Chinese to you, but anyone reading this who does play an instrument understands everything I just said is very basic music theory knowledge that I have no doubt that the Beatles, the Stones, and BB King understand (and then some).

Again, I'm not referring to playing by ear. Yes they definitely are able to do that as well, but I am saying that all of these acts most definitely have a clear understanding of music theory, regardless of whether or not they can read music notation.

gdiminished said:

TD3 said:

Rapping - refers to "spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics with a strong rhythmic accompaniment".

Musician - One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

In the strictest sense of the definition, are rappers musicians? I'd say slowly . . . . no.

Are Rappers artist? YES.

Even so, not everyone can play an instrument or sing, just as not everyone can rap. For those who don't like the Rap (I'm not a fan per say) that's fine, just say it. To dismiss Rappers for not being musicians in my opinion is snobbery. It's a dig to dismiss Rap music impact, for better or for worse. It was common back in the day to say, this or that musician was "classically trained." In other words they didn't play Ragtime, Blues, Jazz, Rock & Roll/R&B, Soul/Funk, or Pop music; therefore these musicians have more credibility, more substance. Who gets to define who, why and what? For me being classically trained means singers and musicians raised in the Black Church. A form of art , music, performance art I thought would come and go has been around damn near 40 years. As I mentioned before people know what they like and don't like, it isn't rocket science.

Yes, they are artists, in a sense, but certainly not real musicians. If you can't play an instrument or arrange music, then they shouldn't be labled as such. It isn't snobbery, it is just simply quality control.

OK, so most rappers/hip-hop artists aren't "musicians" in the literal sense of the word.

BUT neither are most pop artists, country artists, etc., etc.

Christina Aguilera...Mariah Carey...Nat King Cole...Patsy Cline...all accomplished artists, not "musicians".

So why single out rap/hip-hop in this obnoxious thread?

emilio319 said:

MickyDolenz said:

The acts themselves said in interviews they didn't know. Playing by ear and knowing theory are two different things. It's like a person can talk and understand what another person is saying, but are illiterate. A person doesn't need to know what a noun or verb is to speak either.

MickyDolenz, with all due respect, you are not understanding...

I am not referring to "playing by ear." I am referring to them actually knowing music theory, and they definitely do. Understanding music theory does not necessarily include being able to read music.

So for example, if Paul McCartney says to John Lennon, hey man, this song is in the key of C and the chords are C to G to A min to F, they both know what notes go with those chords. THAT is understanding music theory. If Keith Richards tells the band that they are gonna play a blues in the key of A, everyone in the band knows the chords are A7, D7, E7....

Now if you don't play an instrument, that may sound like Chinese to you, but anyone reading this who does play an instrument understands everything I just said is very basic music theory knowledge that I have no doubt that the Beatles, the Stones, and BB King understand (and then some).

Again, I'm not referring to playing by ear. Yes they definitely are able to do that as well, but I am saying that all of these acts most definitely have a clear understanding of music theory, regardless of whether or not they can read music notation.

They said it, I didn't. Take it up with them, it's not that serious.

PurpleJedi said:

Nat King Cole

He was a jazz piano player until he pretty much abandoned it to sing pop songs.

MickyDolenz said:

emilio319 said:

MickyDolenz, with all due respect, you are not understanding...

I am not referring to "playing by ear." I am referring to them actually knowing music theory, and they definitely do. Understanding music theory does not necessarily include being able to read music.

So for example, if Paul McCartney says to John Lennon, hey man, this song is in the key of C and the chords are C to G to A min to F, they both know what notes go with those chords. THAT is understanding music theory. If Keith Richards tells the band that they are gonna play a blues in the key of A, everyone in the band knows the chords are A7, D7, E7....

Now if you don't play an instrument, that may sound like Chinese to you, but anyone reading this who does play an instrument understands everything I just said is very basic music theory knowledge that I have no doubt that the Beatles, the Stones, and BB King understand (and then some).

Again, I'm not referring to playing by ear. Yes they definitely are able to do that as well, but I am saying that all of these acts most definitely have a clear understanding of music theory, regardless of whether or not they can read music notation.

They said it, I didn't. Take it up with them, it's not that serious.

They DIDN'T say it. I agree that they probably don't read music but unless you can provide the quotes, I seriously doubt they ever said anything to the effect of "I don't understand music theory." That's why one of the first things I questioned is where you guys are getting your info from.

emilio319 said:

MickyDolenz said:

They said it, I didn't. Take it up with them, it's not that serious.

They DIDN'T say it. I agree that they probably don't read music but unless you can provide the quotes, I seriously doubt they ever said anything to the effect of "I don't understand music theory." That's why one of the first things I questioned is where you guys are getting your info from.

I read it in different magazines and books and tv interviews over the years. If you don't believe, it's not my job to convince you, I don't care. As I said, it's not that serious. Have a nice day.

MickyDolenz said:

emilio319 said:

They DIDN'T say it. I agree that they probably don't read music but unless you can provide the quotes, I seriously doubt they ever said anything to the effect of "I don't understand music theory." That's why one of the first things I questioned is where you guys are getting your info from.

I read it in different magazines and books and tv interviews over the years. If you don't believe, it's not my job to convince you, I don't care. As I said, it's not that serious. Have a nice day.

Yeah whatever... I thought this was a discussion but if you are throwing totally bullshit information back and forth like "The Beatles and the Stones never knew music theory" (which is a total crock of shit) and then someone comes in and says otherwise and your response is simply "It's not that serious, I don't have to convince you, have a nice day" then that's just lame and childish. That's why I barely post on the org anymore, it's gotten so fucking lame. It's a discussion and if you learn something knew then why not just be like, "My bad, maybe I misunderstood what they said or maybe I need to recheck what I thought I read" instead of just "It's not that serious have a nice day." I wasn't trying to argue or pick a fight, I simply read the thread and couldn't believe no one had said anything about that statement.

But whatever, keep on believing your misinformation. Having bullshit information like that is probably why you misunderstand a lot of things.

PurpleJedi said:

gdiminished said:

Yes, they are artists, in a sense, but certainly not real musicians. If you can't play an instrument or arrange music, then they shouldn't be labled as such. It isn't snobbery, it is just simply quality control.

OK, so most rappers/hip-hop artists aren't "musicians" in the literal sense of the word.

BUT neither are most pop artists, country artists, etc., etc.

Christina Aguilera...Mariah Carey...Nat King Cole...Patsy Cline...all accomplished artists, not "musicians".

So why single out rap/hip-hop in this obnoxious thread?

Because it does not require much talent to rap. That's the damn truth. Go to any middle school or high school in the country and you will find tons of wanna-be rappers. They may or may not be any good but the fact is that the skills required to "rap" are very basic. That's the damn truth. Now don't get me wrong, there are some rappers who are extremely talented and write some incredible poetry, like Rakim for example. I would never say that Rakim is not extremely talented. But there is a lot more talent and practice required to be a great singer or a musician than there is to be a rapper. Anyone who really plays an instrument would probably agree on that.

Now regarding the singers you mentioned... It's probably more accurate to label them "singers" as opposed to musicians... I'm not an expert on any of the singers you mentioned however I wouldn't be surprised if all of them play at least a little bit of piano or guitar because it comes with the territory (i.e. it helps when practicing vocal exercises or composing songs).

emilio319 said:

PurpleJedi said:

OK, so most rappers/hip-hop artists aren't "musicians" in the literal sense of the word.

BUT neither are most pop artists, country artists, etc., etc.

Christina Aguilera...Mariah Carey...Nat King Cole...Patsy Cline...all accomplished artists, not "musicians".

So why single out rap/hip-hop in this obnoxious thread?

Because it does not require much talent to rap. That's the damn truth. Go to any middle school or high school in the country and you will find tons of wanna-be rappers. They may or may not be any good but the fact is that the skills required to "rap" are very basic. That's the damn truth. Now don't get me wrong, there are some rappers who are extremely talented and write some incredible poetry, like Rakim for example. I would never say that Rakim is not extremely talented. But there is a lot more talent and practice required to be a great singer or a musician than there is to be a rapper. Anyone who really plays an instrument would probably agree on that.

Now regarding the singers you mentioned... It's probably more accurate to label them "singers" as opposed to musicians... I'm not an expert on any of the singers you mentioned however I wouldn't be surprised if all of them play at least a little bit of piano or guitar because it comes with the territory (i.e. it helps when practicing vocal exercises or composing songs).

That can be said of singing and musicianship. There are people that can play just a few chords on a guitar, and that proves it doesn't take much talent to play the guitar. There are singers who have limited vocal range, and that proves it doesn't take much talent to sing. Again, you're masquerading this fraudulent-ass thread as some "superior musical discussion" when all it REALLY is is you not being a fan of or hating rap or rappers. Just man up and admit the shit, instead of dancing around what you're really trying to say.

emilio319 said:

that is probably why you misunderstand a lot of things.

How do you know what I misunderstand, you don't know me. I have no interest in cynics who use profanity and judging, when I was speaking nicely. Bye Bye

[Edited 2/28/11 12:27pm]

SonOfSoul said:

emilio319 said:

Because it does not require much talent to rap. That's the damn truth. Go to any middle school or high school in the country and you will find tons of wanna-be rappers. They may or may not be any good but the fact is that the skills required to "rap" are very basic. That's the damn truth. Now don't get me wrong, there are some rappers who are extremely talented and write some incredible poetry, like Rakim for example. I would never say that Rakim is not extremely talented. But there is a lot more talent and practice required to be a great singer or a musician than there is to be a rapper. Anyone who really plays an instrument would probably agree on that.

Now regarding the singers you mentioned... It's probably more accurate to label them "singers" as opposed to musicians... I'm not an expert on any of the singers you mentioned however I wouldn't be surprised if all of them play at least a little bit of piano or guitar because it comes with the territory (i.e. it helps when practicing vocal exercises or composing songs).

That can be said of singing and musicianship. There are people that can play just a few chords on a guitar, and that proves it doesn't take much talent to play the guitar. There are singers who have limited vocal range, and that proves it doesn't take much talent to sing. Again, you're masquerading this fraudulent-ass thread as some "superior musical discussion" when all it REALLY is is you not being a fan of or hating rap or rappers. Just man up and admit the shit, instead of dancing around what you're really trying to say.

Oh I'll totally admit that... I absolutely hate rap. And I actually grew up being a huge rap fan throughout the 80's.. Huge rap fan... Went to a ton of hip-hop concerts and had tons of rap cassettes and records... But when I actually started to learn how to play an instrument and started getting into other forms of music with live instruments and singing (rock, jazz, etc.) then I realized how lame rap music is. Believe me, I was not trying to hide my disdain for hip hop.

But regarding your point... Being able to play just a few simple chords on guitar or piano doesn't automatically make you a musician but it DOES require more time and skill then learning how to rhyme.

C'mon now, I understand where you are coming from, you dig hip-hop, that's fine... But you can't tell me it takes more time to learn how to rhyme words together than it does to learn to play chords on a guitar or to sing properly.

It was music when we did it in Africa.

It was music when we did it as slaves.

And rapping is still a musical expression to this day.

Just because you don't like it, or don't understand its origins, doesn't make it not music.

And just because some have chosen to commercialize it doesn't make it not music either...

Edit.

[Edited 2/28/11 14:39pm]

PurpleJedi said:

gdiminished said:

Yes, they are artists, in a sense, but certainly not real musicians. If you can't play an instrument or arrange music, then they shouldn't be labled as such. It isn't snobbery, it is just simply quality control.

OK, so most rappers/hip-hop artists aren't "musicians" in the literal sense of the word.

BUT neither are most pop artists, country artists, etc., etc.

Christina Aguilera...Mariah Carey...Nat King Cole...Patsy Cline...all accomplished artists, not "musicians".

So why single out rap/hip-hop in this obnoxious thread?

Musician - One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

That's the thing about commas and the word or, they have meaning.

Mr. Cole played piano and he did write music - Straighten Up and Fly Right - is one of his more famous tunes. Ms. Alguilera and Ms. Carey have written some songs? If the thread that obnoxious either pass it by or say why, state your views, and you have. It's interesting to me how others view things; how you or others define what's an artist or who's a musician or isn't.

------------------------------------

[Edited 2/28/11 17:41pm]

Taking note of your username 'gdiminished' I'm assuming you know music theory well enough to have these kind of opinions regarding the technicalities of calling a rapper a 'musician' (or maybe not) but I hope you and others in this thread that have said this realise that the word 'musician' doesn't restrict itself to mean one who can play a musical instrument.

The word musician actually is quite general, meaning 'someone who plays an instrument, write/creates music, performs music, produces music etc'

Just looking at your definition of musician: someone who plays a musical instrument, I think the word you're looking for is 'instrumentalist' which totally makes this thread invalid, for you do not have to be able to play an instrument to be a great artist/musician or for that matter a rapper.

That's like saying a dyslexic person cannot write incredible poetry simply because they can't physically write it down.

gdiminished said:

This general idea that rappers are actually musicians is rather hilarious. You can't even say they are vocalists as they can not sing in key(well some can thanks to auto-tune), and since they can't sing, or play an instrument, what can they do? They are mere lyricists in the broadest sense of the term since they cannot compose, arrange, or write actual music (save for rapper/producer types)....

So whenever I see a tv interview, and I see one of these acts with the title "musician" beneath them, I have to chuckle....

I often wonder how they get a pass as a musician, without being an actual musician.

Interesting topic, but I'm not buying this take on it.... The only way this argument would possibly stand up is if you rigidly equate 'musician' with 'instrumentalist'. But you don't have to be an instrumentalist to be a musician. In fact, if only instrumentalists qualify as being musicians, then it's not just rappers who get disqualified. An orchestral arranger, a virtuoso scat vocalist, a person who programmes complex polyrhythmic drum machine patterns using a sequencer, to take but three, would also be disqualified from calling themselves 'musicians', by this definition, because none of them need necessarily be skilled at a particular instrument to do what they do. But common sense says that can't be right; so we have to look at the definition we're using.

Now, it's true that one sense in which people commonly use the word 'musician' is to signify an instrumentalist, but it's not the whole story. In the broader sense, it means something roughly in line with the definition TD3 posted: "one who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music." By that token, our orchestral arranger, scat vocalist, drum programmer all qualify as musicians, and so do the rappers in question here (even if we don't happen to rate the music they produce), because they're all active contributors to the composition, arrangement or performance of a musical piece.

That's the bottom line, but you can also say that rapping is a kind of rhythmic performance. I think the key point about it is not so much that it's poetry (although at it's best, it's certainly poetic), because it can be utter goobledygook and still be rapping (e.g "I said a hip, hop, the hippie, the hippie to the hip hip hop", etc). The really key point is that it's a form of rhythmic or percussive talking -- rappers talk in rhythm over beats and other music, using their voices percussively. So, not unlike percussionists that play drums, etc, they're musicians that they perform (and usually compose) a series of rhythmic phrases sympathetic to the musical context they occur in, as part of a musical performance. It's just that where a percussionist uses sticks and something to hit, they use their voices. Both are musicians, though.

emilio319 said:

SonOfSoul said:

That can be said of singing and musicianship. There are people that can play just a few chords on a guitar, and that proves it doesn't take much talent to play the guitar. There are singers who have limited vocal range, and that proves it doesn't take much talent to sing. Again, you're masquerading this fraudulent-ass thread as some "superior musical discussion" when all it REALLY is is you not being a fan of or hating rap or rappers. Just man up and admit the shit, instead of dancing around what you're really trying to say.

Oh I'll totally admit that... I absolutely hate rap. And I actually grew up being a huge rap fan throughout the 80's.. Huge rap fan... Went to a ton of hip-hop concerts and had tons of rap cassettes and records... But when I actually started to learn how to play an instrument and started getting into other forms of music with live instruments and singing (rock, jazz, etc.) then I realized how lame rap music is. Believe me, I was not trying to hide my disdain for hip hop.

But regarding your point... Being able to play just a few simple chords on guitar or piano doesn't automatically make you a musician but it DOES require more time and skill then learning how to rhyme.

C'mon now, I understand where you are coming from, you dig hip-hop, that's fine... But you can't tell me it takes more time to learn how to rhyme words together than it does to learn to play chords on a guitar or to sing properly.

But you created this thread to shit on rap/rappers, that was the point to all this. And no one's arguing that it may take more time and skill to play an instrument.

deebee said:

gdiminished said:

This general idea that rappers are actually musicians is rather hilarious. You can't even say they are vocalists as they can not sing in key(well some can thanks to auto-tune), and since they can't sing, or play an instrument, what can they do? They are mere lyricists in the broadest sense of the term since they cannot compose, arrange, or write actual music (save for rapper/producer types)....

So whenever I see a tv interview, and I see one of these acts with the title "musician" beneath them, I have to chuckle....

I often wonder how they get a pass as a musician, without being an actual musician.

Interesting topic, but I'm not buying this take on it.... The only way this argument would possibly stand up is if you rigidly equate 'musician' with 'instrumentalist'. But you don't have to be an instrumentalist to be a musician. In fact, if only instrumentalists qualify as being musicians, then it's not just rappers who get disqualified. An orchestral arranger, a virtuoso scat vocalist, a person who programmes complex polyrhythmic drum machine patterns using a sequencer, to take but three, would also be disqualified from calling themselves 'musicians', by this definition, because none of them need necessarily be skilled at a particular instrument to do what they do. But common sense says that can't be right; so we have to look at the definition we're using.

Now, it's true that one sense in which people commonly use the word 'musician' is to signify an instrumentalist, but it's not the whole story. In the broader sense, it means something roughly in line with the definition TD3 posted: "one who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music." By that token, our orchestral arranger, scat vocalist, drum programmer all qualify as musicians, and so do the rappers in question here (even if we don't happen to rate the music they produce), because they're all active contributors to the composition, arrangement or performance of a musical piece.

That's the bottom line, but you can also say that rapping is a kind of rhythmic performance. I think the key point about it is not so much that it's poetry (although at it's best, it's certainly poetic), because it can be utter goobledygook and still be rapping (e.g "I said a hip, hop, the hippie, the hippie to the hip hip hop", etc). The really key point is that it's a form of rhythmic or percussive talking -- rappers talk in rhythm over beats and other music, using their voices percussively. So, not unlike percussionists that play drums, etc, they're musicians that they perform (and usually compose) a series of rhythmic phrases sympathetic to the musical context they occur in, as part of a musical performance. It's just that where a percussionist uses sticks and something to hit, they use their voices. Both are musicians, though.

You make a good argument... Probably the best one I've read on here...

However I still disagree because...

By that definition pretty much everyone qualifies as a musician...

If a person bangs on a desk along with the rhythm of the music, or taps their foot in time to the music, thus creating a rhythmic sound over the music, then according to your definition that makes them a musician. I mean they ARE producing a rhythmic sound over the music or in time with the music, "much like a percussionist" as you say.....

So yeah, if you REALLY want to overanalyze the word, then EVERYONE is a musician due to the example I just laid out.

IF you wanna keep it real, if you are a "musician," that means you can play....on an INSTRUMENT.

Regarding the "orchestra arranger"....

First of all you are not going to find an orchestral arranger who does not play an instrument.

That doesn't make any sense... In order to be able to arrange for an orchestra you would have to be able to read music and thoroughly understand music theory and the way people learn that is through the study of an instrument. (Unless you mean someone who "arranges" stuff on their computer by copying and pasting samples of instruments... That's totally different. That's just using a computer program and picking out things that sound good and pasting them together).

Regarding the scat vocalist... This is one category (singers) that I will say can definitely be called musicians because they are using their voices as an instrument that produces musical tones.

Yeah I realize that if you stretch that definition it could include rappers because they are producing tones as well but by that definiton than anyone that talks is also a musician. See what I mean???

SonOfSoul said:

emilio319 said:

Oh I'll totally admit that... I absolutely hate rap. And I actually grew up being a huge rap fan throughout the 80's.. Huge rap fan... Went to a ton of hip-hop concerts and had tons of rap cassettes and records... But when I actually started to learn how to play an instrument and started getting into other forms of music with live instruments and singing (rock, jazz, etc.) then I realized how lame rap music is. Believe me, I was not trying to hide my disdain for hip hop.

But regarding your point... Being able to play just a few simple chords on guitar or piano doesn't automatically make you a musician but it DOES require more time and skill then learning how to rhyme.

C'mon now, I understand where you are coming from, you dig hip-hop, that's fine... But you can't tell me it takes more time to learn how to rhyme words together than it does to learn to play chords on a guitar or to sing properly.

But you created this thread to shit on rap/rappers, that was the point to all this. And no one's arguing that it may take more time and skill to play an instrument.

Dude, check the original poster.... I DID NOT create this thread.... I just started posting on it today because I saw someone say some b.s. about the Beatles and Stones not knowing any music theory and I had to correct that... I did see the post a few days ago and was not planning on jumping in but ended up doing so today.

Oh and I forgot to add.... In response to deebee... A drum programmer (in my opinion) is no different than a computer programmer, because that is what you are doing, programming a computer.

I'm not saying it's not art, because it IS, and I'm not saying that's not music, because it IS, but I am saying that they are not musicians... Artist? YES.... Musicians? No... But I will admit I can see how someone could disagree on that point so I understand where you are coming from with that.

emilio319 said:

SonOfSoul said:

But you created this thread to shit on rap/rappers, that was the point to all this. And no one's arguing that it may take more time and skill to play an instrument.

Dude, check the original poster.... I DID NOT create this thread.... I just started posting on it today because I saw someone say some b.s. about the Beatles and Stones not knowing any music theory and I had to correct that... I did see the post a few days ago and was not planning on jumping in but ended up doing so today.

Oh ok, my bad then.

TD3 said:

PurpleJedi said:

OK, so most rappers/hip-hop artists aren't "musicians" in the literal sense of the word.

BUT neither are most pop artists, country artists, etc., etc.

Christina Aguilera...Mariah Carey...Nat King Cole...Patsy Cline...all accomplished artists, not "musicians".

So why single out rap/hip-hop in this obnoxious thread?

Musician - One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

That's the thing about commas and the word or, they have meaning.

Mr. Cole played piano and he did write music - Straighten Up and Fly Right - is one of his more famous tunes. Ms. Alguilera and Ms. Carey have written some songs? If the thread that obnoxious either pass it by or say why, state your views, and you have. It's interesting to me how others view things; how you or others define what's an artist or who's a musician or isn't.

That's the b*tch about opinions...they're like buttholes...everyone has one.

If you're going to split hairs, then don't be a hypocrite about it.

PERFORMS MUSIC is in that little "definition" my friend. Rakim, De La Soul, MC Lyte, Eminem, 50-Cent...they all PERFORM MUSIC.

The fact that someone is using "instrument talent" to define a musician is actually what's interesting to me. If say, LL Cool J, picked up a guitar and learned to play like Prince...suddenly he's a "musician"? And until he does so, he's not?

I would enjoy these discussions more if people at least tried to be objective about it...but the dismissive attitude from the get-go is what sort'a put me on the defensive when I posted.

gdiminished said:

This general idea that rappers are actually musicians is rather hilarious. You can't even say they are vocalists as they can not sing in key(well some can thanks to auto-tune), and since they can't sing, or play an instrument, what can they do? They are mere lyricists in the broadest sense of the term since they cannot compose, arrange, or write actual music (save for rapper/producer types)....

So whenever I see a tv interview, and I see one of these acts with the title "musician" beneath them, I have to chuckle....

I often wonder how they get a pass as a musician, without being an actual musician.

if I understand you correctly, then a rapper is not a musican (as opposed to a singer), because his performance is not melody based, but only on rhythm, right?

alrighty, then a drummer is also not a musician cause he doesn't perfrom melody/chords either, but"just" rhythm

uhhmmm.......

I feel a thread coming up...

[Edited 3/1/11 5:47am]

PurpleJedi said:

TD3 said:

Musician - One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

That's the thing about commas and the word or, they have meaning.

Mr. Cole played piano and he did write music - Straighten Up and Fly Right - is one of his more famous tunes. Ms. Alguilera and Ms. Carey have written some songs? If the thread that obnoxious either pass it by or say why, state your views, and you have. It's interesting to me how others view things; how you or others define what's an artist or who's a musician or isn't.

That's the b*tch about opinions...they're like buttholes...everyone has one.

If you're going to split hairs, then don't be a hypocrite about it.

PERFORMS MUSIC is in that little "definition" my friend. Rakim, De La Soul, MC Lyte, Eminem, 50-Cent...they all PERFORM MUSIC.

The fact that someone is using "instrument talent" to define a musician is actually what's interesting to me. If say, LL Cool J, picked up a guitar and learned to play like Prince...suddenly he's a "musician"? And until he does so, he's not?

I would enjoy these discussions more if people at least tried to be objective about it...but the dismissive attitude from the get-go is what sort'a put me on the defensive when I posted.

For the most part those who've posted, haven't been dismissive or should I say, they've stated an opinion respectfully. I simply gave a defintion of what Rappers do and what muscians do. There's no doubt you and others see these artist as muscians while others don't. Still, I've read everyones post and I'm still thinking and weighing everyones opinion because good points have been made. That's why I said at the begining, "Slowly I'd say . . . .no" but I also said much more in my first post. Whatever you are stewing over you'll have go there all by yourself because I'm not biting.

=====================

[Edited 3/1/11 6:22am]

TD3 said:

PurpleJedi said:

That's the b*tch about opinions...they're like buttholes...everyone has one.

If you're going to split hairs, then don't be a hypocrite about it.

PERFORMS MUSIC is in that little "definition" my friend. Rakim, De La Soul, MC Lyte, Eminem, 50-Cent...they all PERFORM MUSIC.

The fact that someone is using "instrument talent" to define a musician is actually what's interesting to me. If say, LL Cool J, picked up a guitar and learned to play like Prince...suddenly he's a "musician"? And until he does so, he's not?

I would enjoy these discussions more if people at least tried to be objective about it...but the dismissive attitude from the get-go is what sort'a put me on the defensive when I posted.

For the most part those who've posted, haven't been dismissive or should I say, they've stated an opinion respectfully. I simply gave a defintion of what Rappers do and what muscians do. There's no doubt you and others see these artist as muscians while others don't. Still, I've read everyones post and I'm still thinking and weighing everyones opinion because good points have been made. That's why I said at the begining, "Slowly I'd say . . . .no" but I also said much more in my first post. Whatever you are stewing over you'll have go there all by yourself because I'm not biting.

The fact that I used the word "obnoxious" does not constitute "stewing" my friend.