johnart said:

2elijah said:

Well that says a lot doesn't it? Nothing new.

In some ways yes, in others HELLLLLLNAWWWWWWWW.

Most rich white women probably think it's Fantasia in that Real Housewives show.

EDIT:

I kid of course. They think it's her sister.

[Edited 2/24/11 8:42am]

(Bolded part) No you were right the first time actually. But then again I get many of those bleached blond housewives mixed up at times too, and thinking one is the other.

[Edited 2/24/11 8:47am]

Beyonce: "Hey y'all , looky here now...I'mmmm baaaaccck.......

to myself...blonde and all..... yay! "

[Edited 2/24/11 8:53am]

I am not a believer that in every case a photographer/art dir/etc wanting a lighter or darker skin effect should translate to automatically casting a lighter or darker model. We are no one to dictate what, artistically goes on in the mind of someone who is trying to bring a specific vision to life. There is room for artistic expression,when things are handled correctly. There are fine artistic lines that one has to mind when attempting this sort of thing. And if you're gonna do it, you need to be sure it's fierce as HELL because it's tricky and undertandably-so, sensitive territory.

I do think it was very poorly executed.

I just don't think there was malintent.

2elijah said:

Beyonce: "Hey y'all , looky here now...I'm back to myself...blond and all..... yay! "

[Edited 2/24/11 8:52am]

Is anyone making a stink over this one? Because she looks painted (or photoshopped) to look wayyyy lighter to me. She aint that light.

[Edited 2/24/11 8:54am]

johnart said:

I am not a believer that in every case a photographer/art dir/etc wanting a lighter or darker skin effect should translate to automatically casting a lighter or darker model. We are no one to dictate what, artistically goes on in the mind of someone who is trying to bring a specific vision to life. There is room for artistic expression,when things are handled correctly. There are fine artistic lines that one has to mind when attempting this sort of thing. And if you're gonna do it, you need to be sure it's fierce as HELL because it's tricky and undertandably-so, sensitive territory.

I do think it was very poorly executed.

I just don't think there was malintent.

I don't think it was done with the intention of hurting or insulting anyone, but moreso, based on using a popular artist, who happened to be Black, but not "too black" (and I say the latter that way, because of how the fashion industry can be at times)to sell their magazine. In my opinion only, I think it would have been nice to showcase a variety of black female artists/celebrities or models of various complexions, if their "intention" was to give tribute to ancient, African Queens, as they were not all the same exact complexions.

Secondly, there's no guarantee the magazines white consumers would buy the mag, because Beyonce is in it supposedly portraying "African Queens".

[Edited 2/24/11 9:02am]

johnart said:

2elijah said:

Beyonce: "Hey y'all , looky here now...I'm back to myself...blond and all..... yay! "

[Edited 2/24/11 8:52am]

Is anyone making a stink over this one? Because she looks painted (or photoshopped) to look wayyyy lighter to me. She aint that light.

[Edited 2/24/11 8:54am]

I agree. I believe there was another mag she was on where she appeared "white" and that raised some questions if she had some skin bleaching done. Someone posted about that on this thread. Could it be the "lighting" when some of those pics are done or do these magazines choose to paint her lighter. Again..."sales" to specific demographics. I mentioned before if Beyonce is somehow competing with Gaga, because she was sporting some serious, long blond weave the other day. Maybe she thinks going "lighter and blonder" will keep attention on her and open more doors of opportunity, from various industries.

Now my sister's daughter (my niece) is that same complexion in that pic, but at least her skin tone is "natural" and not bleached.

[Edited 2/24/11 9:47am]

johnart said:

TonyVanDam said:

Just like I said, they could have hired a real dark-skinned sista like Fantasia to do the exact same phoot shoot.

I see ya'lls points but it's all a sales game.

Thank you!

Thats all I'm aiming at.

Now see, this is becoming....

[img:$uid]http://cdn.buzznet.com/media/jj1/2011/02/beyonce-lofficiel/beyonce-lofficiel-14.jpg[/img:$uid]

Much more becoming than the clown paint she put on.

2elijah said:

deebee said:

I dont know if anyone quite knows what's going on in this pic! Best ask the dude in the back, I reckon....

This was the look I thought looked good on her (not least because of the rather more subtle makeup job!):

More pics from the shoot here.

The first pic could have went to a model with that actual complexion;the second pic doesn't look bad, and it's not far from B's complexion.

I sort of agree with johnart's point about how darkening someone's complexion for a photo could potentially be done to make an interesting artistic statement. I just kinda think that any thought-provoking statement that they're perhaps trying to make here is muddled and gets lost in the crass exoticism of the shoot. Plus, Beyoncé's just not the artist to make any kind of challenging statement artistically, in case she rocks the L'Oréal boat or risks denting the mainstream appeal of the new album!

I sympathise with sensitivities on the whole issue, though, given not just the way 'blackface' has been used, but also the fact that it's often harder for darker-skinned models, actresses, etc, to come through. The booker from the modeling agency in the Guardian article I posted further up mentioned how clients often ask for a mixed-race model, as lighter complexions continue to be favoured.

2elijah said:

So I think there are only 3 of her in the dark makeup. The others are like the previous ones, more closer to her complexion, and not bad at all. This one has nothing to do with any "ritual" paint, and I also don't find anything significantly paying tribute to African Queens in any of these images, but more or less about the clothes, so there really was no need to paint the face shades darker, but that's just my opinion. I live around many African families, from various African, ethnic groups, of various complexions, and when some of them wear their African outfits, occasionally, they wear it well and with pride.

[Edited 2/24/11 9:45am]

^ That pic.

If ever an image needed a "FAIL" caption, it's that one!

deebee said:

2elijah said:

The first pic could have went to a model with that actual complexion;the second pic doesn't look bad, and it's not far from B's complexion.

I sort of agree with johnart's point about how darkening someone's complexion for a photo could potentially be done to make an interesting artistic statement. I just kinda think that any thought-provoking statement that they're perhaps trying to make here is muddled and gets lost in the crass exoticism of the shoot. Plus, Beyoncé's just not the artist to make any kind of challenging statement artistically, in case she rocks the L'Oréal boat or risks denting the mainstream appeal of the new album!

I sympathise with sensitivities on the whole issue, though, given not just the way 'blackface' has been used, but also the fact that it's often harder for darker-skinned models, actresses, etc, to come through. The booker from the modeling agency in the Guardian article I posted further up mentioned how clients often ask for a mixed-race model, as lighter complexions continue to be favoured.

I hear you and I get that regarding those in the photography/fashion industry trying to make an "artistic statement", but I can't even take that photoshoot seriously, when half the time the Beyonce wears and promotes blonde hair, and at times, I can't even recognize her in those L'Oreal commercials these days, because she comes across more or less looking more of a Caucasian woman, so how can I take her seriously paying tribute to darker-skinned African Queens? I bet she wouldn't trade complexions with any of them. Like someone else said, it's probably a matter of her staying in the "spotlight" and promoting her upcoming album. I guess she may have also figured if she did this photo shoot like that, it will cause shockwaves, and people will have her name in their mouths discussing her, like we're doing here, as well as others discussing her in blog land. Beyonce wins again.

[Edited 2/24/11 10:18am]

deebee said:

2elijah said:

So I think there are only 3 of her in the dark makeup. The others are like the previous ones, more closer to her complexion, and not bad at all. This one has nothing to do with any "ritual" paint, and I also don't find anything significantly paying tribute to African Queens in any of these images, but more or less about the clothes, so there really was no need to paint the face shades darker, but that's just my opinion. I live around many African families, from various African, ethnic groups, of various complexions, and when some of them wear their African outfits, occasionally, they wear it well and with pride.

[Edited 2/24/11 9:45am]

^ That pic.

If ever an image needed a "FAIL" caption, it's that one!

So strange looking.

deebee said:

2elijah said:

The first pic could have went to a model with that actual complexion;the second pic doesn't look bad, and it's not far from B's complexion.

I sort of agree with johnart's point about how darkening someone's complexion for a photo could potentially be done to make an interesting artistic statement. I just kinda think that any thought-provoking statement that they're perhaps trying to make here is muddled and gets lost in the crass exoticism of the shoot. Plus, Beyoncé's just not the artist to make any kind of challenging statement artistically, in case she rocks the L'Oréal boat or risks denting the mainstream appeal of the new album!

I sympathise with sensitivities on the whole issue, though, given not just the way 'blackface' has been used, but also the fact that it's often harder for darker-skinned models, actresses, etc, to come through. The booker from the modeling agency in the Guardian article I posted further up mentioned how clients often ask for a mixed-race model, as lighter complexions continue to be favoured.

Beyonce has not established herself in any significant way as a thought-provoking artist. If she wants to try to put things out there that are artistically/intellectually challenging...she should do so in baby steps.

2elijah said:

deebee said:

I sort of agree with johnart's point about how darkening someone's complexion for a photo could potentially be done to make an interesting artistic statement. I just kinda think that any thought-provoking statement that they're perhaps trying to make here is muddled and gets lost in the crass exoticism of the shoot. Plus, Beyoncé's just not the artist to make any kind of challenging statement artistically, in case she rocks the L'Oréal boat or risks denting the mainstream appeal of the new album!

I sympathise with sensitivities on the whole issue, though, given not just the way 'blackface' has been used, but also the fact that it's often harder for darker-skinned models, actresses, etc, to come through. The booker from the modeling agency in the Guardian article I posted further up mentioned how clients often ask for a mixed-race model, as lighter complexions continue to be favoured.

I hear you and I get that regarding those in the photography/fashion industry trying to make an "artistic statement", but I can't even take that photoshoot seriously, when half the time the Beyonce wears and promotes blonde hair, and at times, I can't even recognize her in those L'Oreal commercials these days, because she comes across more or less looking more of a Caucasian woman, so how can I take her seriously paying tribute to darker-skinned African Queens? I bet she wouldn't trade complexions with any of them. Like someone else said, it's probably a matter of her staying in the "spotlight" and promoting her upcoming album. I guess she may have also figured if she did this photo shoot like that, it will cause shockwaves, and people will have her name in their mouths discussing her, like we're doing here, as well as others discussing her in blog land. Beyonce wins again.

[Edited 2/24/11 10:18am]

On what planet does she look caucasian?

I kind of see where you're coming from with this, but disagree that because a woman of color prefers things such as blond hair for herself she is somehow less qualified to pay honor to darker skinned women. Is Mary J not qualified either?

johnart said:

2elijah said:

I hear you and I get that regarding those in the photography/fashion industry trying to make an "artistic statement", but I can't even take that photoshoot seriously, when half the time the Beyonce wears and promotes blonde hair, and at times, I can't even recognize her in those L'Oreal commercials these days, because she comes across more or less looking more of a Caucasian woman, so how can I take her seriously paying tribute to darker-skinned African Queens? I bet she wouldn't trade complexions with any of them. Like someone else said, it's probably a matter of her staying in the "spotlight" and promoting her upcoming album. I guess she may have also figured if she did this photo shoot like that, it will cause shockwaves, and people will have her name in their mouths discussing her, like we're doing here, as well as others discussing her in blog land. Beyonce wins again.

[Edited 2/24/11 10:18am]

On what planet does she look caucasian?

I kind of see where you're coming from with this, but disagree that because a woman of color prefers things such as blond hair for herself she is somehow less qualified to pay honor to darker skinned women. Is Mary J not qualified either?

You can laugh, but some of those L'Oreal commercials have her appearing extremely fair-skinned, like a tanned white woman.

Also, where did you see me say because a woman is darker-complected that she cannot sport blonde hair, especially when there are darker-skinned women who are born with blonde or very light-brown hair, as well as red? You're jumping all over the place here. I have two siblings who were born with sandy brown hair and blonde streaks in their hair, and they're black females. As a matter of fact, one of my younger sisters used to be teased by her friends/coworkers and called "Beyonce", because she wore blonde, braid extensions and had that "Beyonce" look at the time, but it looked good on her complexion. One of Malcolm X's daughters also has blondish, sandy brown hair. Blonde hair actually compliments Beyonce, and I never said I had a problem with her hair that color.

I stated that I am surprised Beyonce in particular agreed to do that photoshoot in a tribute to African Queens, and agreed to wear the dark makeup, because the majority of the time she seems to sport more of a European or Caucasian look lately, with the very, blonde hair that is more associated with white females, and people have questioned if she lightened her skin.

[Edited 2/24/11 12:38pm]

2elijah said:

johnart said:

On what planet does she look caucasian?

I kind of see where you're coming from with this, but disagree that because a woman of color prefers things such as blond hair for herself she is somehow less qualified to pay honor to darker skinned women. Is Mary J not qualified either?

You can laugh, but some of those L'Oreal commercials have her appearing extremely fair-skinned, like a tanned white woman.

Also, where did you see me say because a woman is darker-complected that she cannot sport blonde hair, especially when there are darker-skinned women who are born with blonde or very light-brown hair, as well as red? You're jumping all over the place here. I have two siblings who were born with sandy brown hair and blond streaks, and they're black females. As a matter of fact, one of my younger sisters used to be teased by her friends/coworkers and called "Beyonce", because she wore blonde, braid extensions and had that "Beyonce" look at the time, but it looked good on her complexion. One of Malcolm X's daughters also has blondish, sandy brown hair. Blonde hair actually compliments Beyonce, and I never said I had a problem with her hair that color.

I stated that I am surprised Beyonce in particular agreed to do that photoshoot in a tribute to African Queens, and wear the dark makeup, because the majority of the time she seems to sport more of a European or Caucasian look lately, with the very, blonde hair that is more associated with white females, and people have questioned if she lightened her skin.

[Edited 2/24/11 12:30pm]

Lawd I'm all over the place but we just jumped to Malcolm X's children??

How am I all over the place?

she comes across more or less looking more of a Caucasian woman, so how can I take her seriously paying tribute to darker-skinned African Queens?

You could bleach Beyonce lilly white and she still does not look caucasian to me.

I never said that you said that a darker complected woman can't wear blond hair. Your statements come across as Beyonce is trynna be white so I can't take her seriously representing darker African Queens. Maybe this is not what you mean but it's how it comes across to me. I'm not sure what me not agreeing with that has to do with you having light skinned blond haired siblings. Yes I know that black people come in every shade. I'm from Puerto Rico, I have relatives of every shade too.

My point is that it really shouldn't matter whether she likes blond hair, red hair (naturally or otherwise) or has light skin . Having a preference of what you want to sport or what look you think works for you has nothing to do with your ability/desire to honor or admire women who are darker than you.

There shouldn't be a set way for a woman of color to look or act in order for it to make it acceptable for her to honor another woman of color(or any color for that matter).

[Edited 2/24/11 13:24pm]

Harlepolis said:

Now see, this is becoming....

[img:$uid]http://cdn.buzznet.com/media/jj1/2011/02/beyonce-lofficiel/beyonce-lofficiel-14.jpg[/img:$uid]

Much more becoming than the clown paint she put on.

She actually looks kinda hot with this shot. Good come hither look. Everything's on point with this one.

johnart said:

2elijah said:

You can laugh, but some of those L'Oreal commercials have her appearing extremely fair-skinned, like a tanned white woman.

Also, where did you see me say because a woman is darker-complected that she cannot sport blonde hair, especially when there are darker-skinned women who are born with blonde or very light-brown hair, as well as red? You're jumping all over the place here. I have two siblings who were born with sandy brown hair and blond streaks, and they're black females. As a matter of fact, one of my younger sisters used to be teased by her friends/coworkers and called "Beyonce", because she wore blonde, braid extensions and had that "Beyonce" look at the time, but it looked good on her complexion. One of Malcolm X's daughters also has blondish, sandy brown hair. Blonde hair actually compliments Beyonce, and I never said I had a problem with her hair that color.

I stated that I am surprised Beyonce in particular agreed to do that photoshoot in a tribute to African Queens, and wear the dark makeup, because the majority of the time she seems to sport more of a European or Caucasian look lately, with the very, blonde hair that is more associated with white females, and people have questioned if she lightened her skin.

[Edited 2/24/11 12:30pm]

Lawd I'm all over the place but we just jumped to Malcolm X's children??

How am I all over the place?

she comes across more or less looking more of a Caucasian woman, so how can I take her seriously paying tribute to darker-skinned African Queens?

You could bleach Beyonce lilly white and she still does not look caucasian to me.

I never said that you said that a darker complected woman can't wear blond hair. Your statements come across as Beyonce is trynna be white so I can't take her seriously representing darker African Queens. Maybe this is not what you mean but it's how it comes across to me. I'm not sure what me not agreeing with that has to do with you having light skinned blond haired siblings. Yes I know that black people come in every shade. I'm from Puerto Rico, I have relatives of every shade too.

My point is that it really shouldn't matter whether she likes blond hair, red hair or has light skin (naturally or otherwise). Having a preference of what you want to sport or what look you think works for you has nothing to do with your ability/desire to honor or admire women who are darker than you.

I mentioned Malcolm X's daughter to give you an example of a female of a darker shade with blonde hair, as well as mentioning my siblings, to give you an example of darker-complected females who do have blonde hair, because you made a comment in relation to that.

Again, like I clearly stated, and not going back and forth on this with you, that I can't take Beyonce seriously wanting to give tribute to African Queens in that photo shoot, because I believe she did it as just another opportunity to draw attention to herself and keep her name out there, and I just don't feel the tribute thing was heartfelt--that's my personal opinion that I'm sticking with on this.

Johnart said:

My point is that it really shouldn't matter whether she likes blond hair, red hair or has light skin (naturally or otherwise). Having a preference of what you want to sport or what look you think works for you has nothing to do with your ability/desire to honor or admire women who are darker than you

No it shouldn't matter , but no one said she wasn't "capable" of doing that. All some are doing here is questioning her motive behind the photoshoot as well as, admiring some of the pics in it, and questioning whether she was a good choice for representing African Queens alone, when there are so many African models who could have been in the photo shoot with her, to represent as well. Just opinions that's all. Have a good day.

[Edited 2/24/11 13:52pm]

Musicslave said:

Harlepolis said:

Now see, this is becoming....

[img:$uid]http://cdn.buzznet.com/media/jj1/2011/02/beyonce-lofficiel/beyonce-lofficiel-14.jpg[/img:$uid]

Much more becoming than the clown paint she put on.

She actually looks kinda hot with this shot. Good come hither look. Everything's on point with this one.

Yeah, I like that pic because it's more becoming of her, and doesn't take too much.

Same here.

I don't think there's much to question about the motive (I know on that most of us agree) and think that the fact that we're just a few of god-knows-how-many-millions discussing this proves that she was indeed the right choice (regardless of our individual preferences or ideas) for the shoot tho.

2elijah said:

Just opinions that's all.

Ottensen said:

Harlepolis said:

From L'Official

What do I think?

I think that Beyonce is a very pretty girl, but I also think that I am so fatigued of seeing beyonce trying to push herself onto us as a fashion phenomenon, because she is not. While she is arguably a pop culture darling she is not a fashion icon. There is a marked difference, the first of which is having a discernable, self-possessed sense of style that sets, rather than follows trends. No matter how may dresses she swirls around in, no many how many magazine covers, no matter how many pounds of make-up you slap on that face, Beyonce, of bow legs and pigeon toes is not nor ever will be a fashion industry legend. What she is attempting to achieve is simply best left to those who have done it best, the very uttering of their names signifying inspiration and revolution in the world of fashion. I'm sorry, but when I think of the great architects of style, Mme. Vionnet, Balenciaga, Chanel, Yves St. Laurent, Givenchy, Lauren, this is not the visage I see:

I would rather remember and pay homage to these women, the iconclasts who are the very fabric of fashion :

The Originator, Naomi Sims

Beverly Johnson

Pat Cleveland

Mounia, inspiration to Givenchy and St, Laurent, THE couture fashion muse of France

Grace Jones

Lana Ogilvie

Roshumba

Beverly Peele

Cynthia Bailey

Claudia Mason

Naomi

Liya Kebede

Waris Dirie

Atong

and The MOTHERLOAD, IMAN:

and the scores of others that go nameless to the general public, yet to the fashion industry are true stars, women with clearly defined essence, sense of style, who inspire creation. For me I'll take that rather than some blank canvas who goes with what is of the moment simply because they want another popular choice award to hang on their wall. Again, I think Knowles is an absolutely lovely girl, a great singer, but looking at her does not make me want to live, breathe, and eat fashion or originality. She makes me want to try a lace front, learn a good line dance, and practice hitting a D5 on my vocal scale, but not much else. I'm much rather interested in her sister's strong willed attitude toward dressing, or her mother's forays into Walmart sportswear and ladies dresses.

HonestMan13 said:

Ottensen said:

What do I think?

I think that Beyonce is a very pretty girl, but I also think that I am so fatigued of seeing beyonce trying to push herself onto us as a fashion phenomenon, because she is not. While she is arguably a pop culture darling she is not a fashion icon. There is a marked difference, the first of which is having a discernable, self-possessed sense of style that sets, rather than follows trends. No matter how may dresses she swirls around in, no many how many magazine covers, no matter how many pounds of make-up you slap on that face, Beyonce, of bow legs and pigeon toes is not nor ever will be a fashion industry legend. What she is attempting to achieve is simply best left to those who have done it best, the very uttering of their names signifying inspiration and revolution in the world of fashion. I'm sorry, but when I think of the great architects of style, Mme. Vionnet, Balenciaga, Chanel, Yves St. Laurent, Givenchy, Lauren, this is not the visage I see:

I would rather remember and pay homage to these women, the iconclasts who are the very fabric of fashion :

The Originator, Naomi Sims

Beverly Johnson

Pat Cleveland

Mounia, inspiration to Givenchy and St, Laurent, THE couture fashion muse of France

Grace Jones

Lana Ogilvie

Roshumba

Beverly Peele

Cynthia Bailey

Claudia Mason

Naomi

Liya Kebede

Waris Dirie

Atong

and The MOTHERLOAD, IMAN:

and the scores of others that go nameless to the general public, yet to the fashion industry are true stars, women with clearly defined essence, sense of style, who inspire creation. For me I'll take that rather than some blank canvas who goes with what is of the moment simply because they want another popular choice award to hang on their wall. Again, I think Knowles is an absolutely lovely girl, a great singer, but looking at her does not make me want to live, breathe, and eat fashion or originality. She makes me want to try a lace front, learn a good line dance, and practice hitting a D5 on my vocal scale, but not much else. I'm much rather interested in her sister's strong willed attitude toward dressing, or her mother's forays into Walmart sportswear and ladies dresses.

Agree...love those pics, especially Iman's pic.

[Edited 2/24/11 16:11pm]

johnart said:

Same here.

I don't think there's much to question about the motive (I know on that most of us agree) and think that the fact that we're just a few of god-knows-how-many-millions discussing this proves that she was indeed the right choice (regardless of our individual preferences or ideas) for the shoot tho.

I don't think there was any ill intent on the part of anyone involved...I just think that there is a fine line between avant garde and artsy-fartsy wannabee.

If I were doing the shoot I would have probably done something along the lines of having bey in her natural skin tone and traditional attire, looking into a series of mirrors where she sees many different shades of herself, but I would have used much less garish makeup.

There is dark makeup that doesn't give the shoe polish/Sambo effect which makes it look like they are trying too hard.

Not a well thought out concept IMO.

^ Y'ALL giving too much benefit of doubt here. I think the shoe polish/sambo look is EXACTLY the look the photog wanted. Not sure the gain from doing such a shocking offensive campaign... but I don't think the look was created by accident. This is Vogue after all, not so new magazine just starting out. They know how to manipulate colors and airbrush to make people look totally natural.

How is she in blackface when Weave is black herself? Are we now that sensitive over race that an African American woman can be labeled racist against her own people over a photoshoot? Come on just stop it.

This is why we have problems.

musicjunky318 said:

How is she in blackface when Weave is black herself? Are we now that sensitive over race that an African American woman can be labeled racist against her own people over a photoshoot? Come on just stop it.

[img:$uid]http://www.movieenergy.com/images/2000/215545_brp.jpg[/img:$uid]

Do yourself a favor and watch this film before you make a statement like that.

And what the hell are you babbling about? Not one single poster in here said that Beyonce is racist.

She is a dummy. The dumbest of the dumb. Remember when she and her entourage visited Egypt and the chief Egyptologist said she was a dipwad (well, those are my words but he said she was "stupid")? I truly believe it. And I think she may just be bored and doesn't know what to do with herself or something. She doesn't have enough artistic chops, vocabulary or style to pull off a bold or sophisticated statement, especially about race matters. I'll never forget her on Larry King trying to talk about race/social matters a couple years ago. I was embarrassed for her.

The last time someone decided to make themselves up in "Blackface" their dumbass was, "blackballed", literally. This was ill advised in my opinion, Ms. Knowles is a foolish little girl. Carry on.

==================

[Edited 2/25/11 1:37am]

Seems to me that it was just the one time they darkened her skin and it appears to only be for artistic purposes. To be creative at the shoot. I don't see anything wrong with that, but that's me!

they are trying to make her every woman, all at the one time!