Neversin said:

Again, by what norm?

Who decides what the standard is and what makes that opinion more important than anyone elses?

There's a difference between recognision and greed... They don't go hand in hand...

I'm not saying artists shouldn't be paid, but when their greed kicks in and they sign up with some greedy company they shouldn't complain when that greedy company they willingly signed with exploits them...

True and therefore artists, just like anyone else, have a choice to sign up with them or not...

It's ultimately their own decision...

Neversin.

Recognition = promotion. Record labels are set up to do that and TRADITIONALLY, that's how a great majority of records are sold, therefore its a logical course of thought to seek record deals. Even though its often a bad situation for the artist these days, not every record contract is bad and not every artist gets completely screwed. There are a few artists who have good relationships with their labels and someone besides the artist needs to be doing the legwork for trying to get the music to the masses. Lots of indie labels have done great things for their artists and shouldn't be thrown in the same box as the majors or major independents headed by people like Iovine.

"I don't "work" nor do I need to do or feel the need to do what I do for money..."

That's fine and good for YOU but YOU are just one person and some people actually like to eat from their art. Its not "greed"; its called SURVIVAL. Like I said, its a JOB. Just because you like to do it doesn't make it any less of a job. If you are willing to do it for free, then you are a hobbyist and not a professional. Some guys rebuild cars for fun; some are mechanics.

Its a JOB. Yes, its art but its also WORK for PROFESSIONALS. If you choose not to get paid for it, don't hate on those that do it for a living. It may be their choice but some artists would rather do music for a living than work a day job and be a hobbyist.

BlaqueKnight said:

If you are willing to do it for free, then you are a hobbyist and not a professional. Some guys rebuild cars for fun; some are mechanics.

That's the single most bullshit thing anyone has said in this thread...

By your logic 99% of painters and artists hundreds of years ago are hobbyists even though they were better than their contemporaries who sold their mediocre crap...

Money doesn't equate to quality or professionalism, that's the dumbest thing a person could think... Art and money still do not mix...

Like I said, I'm not saying artists shouldn't be paid but when someone flashes a shitload of cash in their faces with the illusion that it could be theirs then this so called artist quickly drops all of their logic and sign up ASAP without questions; and that's the problem and that kind of behaviour gives big corporate sharks the power they want...

It's not people like me encouraging that behaviour, it's the stupidity of the artist in question, they keep falling for that same old "rich and famous" scheme over and over again just because of greed...

What's wrong with signing up with an independant for enough money to get by and exposure that compliments their art?

Neversin.

Neversin said:

BlaqueKnight said:

If you are willing to do it for free, then you are a hobbyist and not a professional. Some guys rebuild cars for fun; some are mechanics.

That's the single most bullshit thing anyone has said in this thread...

By your logic 99% of painters and artists hundreds of years ago are hobbyists even though they were better than their contemporaries who sold their mediocre crap...

Money doesn't equate to quality or professionalism, that's the dumbest thing a person could think... Art and money still do not mix...

Like I said, I'm not saying artists shouldn't be paid but when someone flashes a shitload of cash in their faces with the illusion that it could be theirs then this so called artist quickly drops all of their logic and sign up ASAP without questions; and that's the problem and that kind of behaviour gives big corporate sharks the power they want...

It's not people like me encouraging that behaviour, it's the stupidity of the artist in question, they keep falling for that same old "rich and famous" scheme over and over again just because of greed...

What's wrong with signing up with an independant for enough money to get by and exposure that compliments their art?

Neversin.

Did I strike a nerve? Look up what PROFESSIONAL means. I was not speaking in terms of someone's level of accomplishment at their craft but rather what being professional ACTUALLY MEANS, which is BEING PAID FOR YOUR SKILL. I can go to youtube and find a number of bedroom guitarists, singers, bassists, pianists, etc. who can wipe the floor with some of the best pros in the business. Still, THEY ARE NOT PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS. Why? Because they don't do it for a living. No matter how great you are at something, if no one is paying you to do it, you are not a professional.

And for th record, I have been one of the most vocal people on this site in favor of indie music and do-it-yourself publishing of your work. IMO, its the ONLY way to retain your integrity and keep your art pure. Yet, I am not delusional about that road. It doesn't usually pay well and often times leads to a dead end. I admire the fact that Prince is probably one of the biggest stars to have accomplished musical purity and pop success to as high a degree as he has. Its RARE and even though Prince kicked down some doors, he also burned some bridges and there were some rules made to ensure that others don't follow down that same path. Frank Zappa also did this. Cudos to them, but understand that other artists can't travel down that road once its been discovered. Going indie is something MOST artists can do and I encourage it. If you can make some money doing it, that makes you a professional musician. If not, then you are a hobbyist - even though you may take what you do as seriously or even more so than a lot of so-called "pros" out there.

[Edited 2/23/11 2:10am]

BlaqueKnight said:

Did I strike a nerve?

No...

BlaqueKnight said:

Look up what PROFESSIONAL means. I was not speaking in terms of someone's level of accomplishment at their craft but rather what being professional ACTUALLY MEANS, which is BEING PAID FOR YOUR SKILL.

I thought you meant it in the manner of having skills...

BlaqueKnight said:

And for th record, I have been one of the most vocal people on this site in favor of indie music and do-it-yourself publishing of your work. IMO, its the ONLY way to retain your integrity and keep your art pure. Yet, I am not delusional about that road. It doesn't usually pay well and often times leads to a dead end.

It pays well enough, but greed and useless materialism only makes people want more so the only problem they create for themselves is just another luxury problem... In the west only dramaqueens feel the need they have to "survive" to get through their lives...

Neversin.

[Edited 2/23/11 3:27am]

i don't like 50 cent, but he mentions iovine here:

Geffen dated Cher back in the day, to my understanding, but how did he nearly destroyed MJ's career?

Really? I thought Geffen was gay. But then again Cher dated Tom Cruise to.....By the way I like your avatar....

[Edited 2/24/11 10:04am]

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Geffen dated Cher back in the day, to my understanding, but how did he nearly destroyed MJ's career?

Really? I thought Geffen was gay. But then again Cher dated Tom Cruise to.....By the way I like your avatar....

[Edited 2/24/11 10:04am]

Yep, he runs the Gay Men's Health Crisis Center right in NYC, but Cher dated Geffen in the 70's. Avatar?

MJJstudent said:

angel345 said:

What books out there do you recommend?

again, don't take everything in the books seriously (as the books are from the writers' perspectives); but i would begin with the yetnikoff book, 'howling at the moon' (written with david ritz- AGAIN, don't take everything written seriously)... also, 'the trials of michael jackson' by lynton guest... this one goes into michaels experiences with sony, and how sony was eyeing the ATV catalog for longer than spoken about. these are the two i can think of on the top of my head.

i would also suggest navigating through the sony and sony/ATV websites. this is where i get a lot of my information. i like to go to the direct source, as opposed to always taking someone's perspective on that source for word.

another person michael 'trusted' (and knew since he was a child) and was eventually used by was bob jones, head publicist of MJJ communications at one point. he wrote a book about how michael molested jordan chandler: 'the man behind the mask'. this book was released around the time of the trial, but did not do very well. jones has since transcended.

Thanks!

angel345 said:

MJJstudent said:

again, don't take everything in the books seriously (as the books are from the writers' perspectives); but i would begin with the yetnikoff book, 'howling at the moon' (written with david ritz- AGAIN, don't take everything written seriously)... also, 'the trials of michael jackson' by lynton guest... this one goes into michaels experiences with sony, and how sony was eyeing the ATV catalog for longer than spoken about. these are the two i can think of on the top of my head.

i would also suggest navigating through the sony and sony/ATV websites. this is where i get a lot of my information. i like to go to the direct source, as opposed to always taking someone's perspective on that source for word.

another person michael 'trusted' (and knew since he was a child) and was eventually used by was bob jones, head publicist of MJJ communications at one point. he wrote a book about how michael molested jordan chandler: 'the man behind the mask'. this book was released around the time of the trial, but did not do very well. jones has since transcended.

Thanks!

no problem... i hope that helps in some way.