This general idea that rappers are actually musicians is rather hilarious. You can't even say they are vocalists as they can not sing in key(well some can thanks to auto-tune), and since they can't sing, or play an instrument, what can they do? They are mere lyricists in the broadest sense of the term since they cannot compose, arrange, or write actual music (save for rapper/producer types)....

So whenever I see a tv interview, and I see one of these acts with the title "musician" beneath them, I have to chuckle....

I often wonder how they get a pass as a musician, without being an actual musician.

A music snob thread.

Not trying to start a racial issue here, but only white people say they're musicians

well, it depends on who you are talking about. much of early hip hop (funky four plus one more, etc.) used bands. some producers play instruments. hip hop culture came out of the fact that young kids were being left behind, and money for the arts was being taken away (nothing has changed).

so... it depends on who you are talking about, specifically. i suppose the term 'musician' can be subjective. for some it doesn't necessarily mean one plays an instrument. and then, the voice is an instrument, isn't it? an instrument can be the body itself. look at the art of beatboxing. there are many ways to look at it.

PoppyBros said:

Not trying to start a racial issue here, but only white people say they're musicians

heee hee...

There are rappers who DO write and compose their own material so the thread's title is a bit incorrect

Case in point: Hip hop producer Nicolay

MJJstudent said:

well, it depends on who you are talking about. much of early hip hop (funky four plus one more, etc.) used bands. some producers play instruments. hip hop culture came out of the fact that young kids were being left behind, and money for the arts was being taken away (nothing has changed).

so... it depends on who you are talking about, specifically. i suppose the term 'musician' can be subjective. for some it doesn't necessarily mean one plays an instrument. and then, the voice is an instrument, isn't it? an instrument can be the body itself. look at the art of beatboxing. there are many ways to look at it.

Of course voice is an instrument, but they aren't singers or vocalists, I would say poets as a best case-scenario. Musicianship isn't subjective, either you have control of an instrument, or you don't. The decline of funding for the arts and music has greatly hurt overall music appreciation and knowledge over the past 30 years.

bboy87 said:

There are rappers who DO write and compose their own material so the thread's title is a bit incorrect

Very rare exceptions as you have mentioned, but the majority simply do not. More than likely they were exposed to music during childhood and had the base skills to delve into other genres, ie Hip Hop.

I have tremendous respect and admiration for producers, sound engineers, studio musicians, and actual vocalists, you know, people who actually make the songs.

bboy87 said:

There are rappers who DO write and compose their own material so the thread's title is a bit incorrect

A few sing fairly well also, and there was no autotune either. The Force MD's and Angie Stone started out as rappers too.

MickyDolenz said:

A music snob thread.

I wouldn't say snobbery, just the correct way of going about things

gdiminished said:

MJJstudent said:

well, it depends on who you are talking about. much of early hip hop (funky four plus one more, etc.) used bands. some producers play instruments. hip hop culture came out of the fact that young kids were being left behind, and money for the arts was being taken away (nothing has changed).

so... it depends on who you are talking about, specifically. i suppose the term 'musician' can be subjective. for some it doesn't necessarily mean one plays an instrument. and then, the voice is an instrument, isn't it? an instrument can be the body itself. look at the art of beatboxing. there are many ways to look at it.

Of course voice is an instrument, but they aren't singers or vocalists, I would say poets as a best case-scenario. Musicianship isn't subjective, either you have control of an instrument, or you don't. The decline of funding for the arts and music has greatly hurt overall music appreciation and knowledge over the past 30 years.

The Beastie Boys are rappers and they play their own instruments on some of their tunes. So do Stetsasonic and The Roots and many others don't use sampling and have actual bands playing on their songs especially early era rap.

Generalization.

What the hell is "Actual Music" anyway? (rhetorical).

There are many rappers who produce/play instruments and there are many who simply rap.

Also, how are you not a vocalist if you are using your voice? You have to 'sing' in key to be considered as such?

Okay.

Troll fail!

Ignorant thread - achieved.

I can name over 100 rappers who can prove you wrong.

minneapolisFunq said:

What the hell is "Actual Music" anyway?

25 years ago, hip hop was fun and cool and new.

Nowadays, it just sucks. It's not musical. I'd like to hear the "good" stuff that you fans are defending, but it's not like they're playing it on the radio. To paraphrase vainandy, it's just dudes talking over a boring midtempo beat that you can't dance to.

Rapping - refers to "spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics with a strong rhythmic accompaniment".

Musician - One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

In the strictest sense of the definition, are rappers musicians? I'd say slowly . . . . no.

Are Rappers artist? YES.

Even so, not everyone can play an instrument or sing, just as not everyone can rap. For those who don't like the Rap (I'm not a fan per say) that's fine, just say it. To dismiss Rappers for not being musicians in my opinion is snobbery. It's a dig to dismiss Rap music impact, for better or for worse. It was common back in the day to say, this or that musician was "classically trained." In other words they didn't play Ragtime, Blues, Jazz, Rock & Roll/R&B, Soul/Funk, or Pop music; therefore these musicians have more credibility, more substance. Who gets to define who, why and what? For me being classically trained means singers and musicians raised in the Black Church. A form of art , music, performance art I thought would come and go has been around damn near 40 years. As I mentioned before people know what they like and don't like, it isn't rocket science.

gdiminished said:

The decline of funding for the arts and music has greatly hurt overall music appreciation and knowledge over the past 30 years.

In one sense, schools have hurt music or at least creativity. Schools say music should be one thing and if it isn't, then it's not music, kinda like what Wynton Marsalis says about jazz. But blues, jazz, country, gospel, doo-wop, funk, ragtime, and other types of music originating in the US didn't come from schooling and in some cases were a rebellion from the "music theory" type of thinking, especially funk. Many popular musicians don't know how to read or write music in a sheet music sense, and play by ear and are self taught. Many people think anything non-classical/opera is not music, so whatever "real music" is, is an opinion to the listener.

Then would you mind telling me what exactly these guys are doing???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_6p6fbdxF4

[Edited 2/27/11 12:49pm]

CPest1 said:

Then would you mind telling me what exactly these guys are doing???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_6p6fbdxF4

[Edited 2/27/11 12:49pm]

How do you post video's so they appear and not just the link?

CPest1 said:

Then would you mind telling me what exactly these guys are doing???

CPest1 said:

CPest1 said:

Then would you mind telling me what exactly these guys are doing???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_6p6fbdxF4

[Edited 2/27/11 12:49pm]

How do you post video's so they appear and not just the link?

Type this [youtube] [/youtube]

then copy and past everthing behind the V= in between the brackets.

You obviously don't know many Rap/Hip-Hop songs. There are rappers who DO play instruments. And there are rappers with great voices. "This general idea that rappers are actually musicians is rather hilarious", who do you think you are? You know what's rather hilarious? Your view on the Rap/Hip-Hop genre, that's obviously a joke considering you are over here trying to go in on it when clearly you don't know what the Hell you're talking about. Why are you a troll? Do you like being one?

And also, EVERY SINGLE TIME a rapper is called a musician, the person saying it is not always trying to imply "this person plays an instrument or multipule instruments as a profession". It's just the name you call somebody who makes music.

TD3 said:

Rapping - refers to "spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics with a strong rhythmic accompaniment".

Musician - One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

In the strictest sense of the definition, are rappers musicians? I'd say slowly . . . . no.

Are Rappers artist? YES.

Even so, not everyone can play an instrument or sing, just as not everyone can rap. For those who don't like the Rap (I'm not a fan per say) that's fine, just say it. To dismiss Rappers for not being musicians in my opinion is snobbery. It's a dig to dismiss Rap music impact, for better or for worse. It was common back in the day to say, this or that musician was "classically trained." In other words they didn't play Ragtime, Blues, Jazz, Rock & Roll/R&B, Soul/Funk, or Pop music; therefore these musicians have more credibility, more substance. Who gets to define who, why and what? For me being classically trained means singers and musicians raised in the Black Church. A form of art , music, performance art I thought would come and go has been around damn near 40 years. As I mentioned before people know what they like and don't like, it isn't rocket science.

Yes, they are artists, in a sense, but certainly not real musicians. If you can't play an instrument or arrange music, then they shouldn't be labled as such. It isn't snobbery, it is just simply quality control.

You obviously don't know many Rap/Hip-Hop songs. There are rappers who DO play instruments. And there are rappers with great voices. "This general idea that rappers are actually musicians is rather hilarious", who do you think you are? You know what's rather hilarious? Your view on the Rap/Hip-Hop genre, that's obviously a joke considering you are over here trying to go in on it when clearly you don't know what the Hell you're talking about. Why are you a troll? Do you like being one?

And also, EVERY SINGLE TIME a rapper is called a musician, the person saying it is not always trying to imply "this person plays an instrument or multipule instruments as a profession". It's just the name you call somebody who makes music.

No, I probably know more about Hip Hop and Rap than you, I just outgrew it. As a musician, rappers being called a "musician" it is just an annoyance and a giant misclassification in terms of musicianship. If they aren't having a hand in composing, programming, or arranging the song, then they really shouldn't be called a musician. Lyricist at the very most...calling a rapper a musician is similar to a Micky D's fry cook being called a Five Star Chef....two different leagues.

I really enjoy the technical aspect of Hip Hop and Rap, creative sampling, original songs, aggressive bass lines, tight sequences. Naturally when it is done correctly the results can be beautiful....

Why? You have musicians and arrangers who know theory and harmony, something your average MC knows nothing about.

SonOfSoul said:

gdiminished said:

Why? You have musicians and arrangers who know theory and harmony, something your average MC knows nothing about.

The Beatles, Michael Jackson, The Rolling Stones, B.B. King, James Brown, and many other popular acts and producers don't know theory or how to read or write musical notation. They play & write by ear. John Lennon has said several times that he doesn't know what people are talking about when they discuss music terms about The Beatles music. Knowing theory has nothing to do with being a musician.

this is stupid. this like saying punk rock and techno isn't music. what is music to begin with? i think it based on an emotion that it makes feels. if that music gets you thinking, sad, happy, dancing, then the rhythm spell worked. i think hip hop and rap is music! i think its like a far distant relative of punk. Punk was D.I.Y music and Hip hop and rap are the same. Capitalism and Music Snobbishism(is that word?) is the thing that is cancerous to all set of music.

[Edited 2/27/11 23:01pm]

[Edited 2/27/11 23:02pm]

gdiminished said:

TD3 said:

Rapping - refers to "spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics with a strong rhythmic accompaniment".

Musician - One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

In the strictest sense of the definition, are rappers musicians? I'd say slowly . . . . no.

Are Rappers artist? YES.

Even so, not everyone can play an instrument or sing, just as not everyone can rap. For those who don't like the Rap (I'm not a fan per say) that's fine, just say it. To dismiss Rappers for not being musicians in my opinion is snobbery. It's a dig to dismiss Rap music impact, for better or for worse. It was common back in the day to say, this or that musician was "classically trained." In other words they didn't play Ragtime, Blues, Jazz, Rock & Roll/R&B, Soul/Funk, or Pop music; therefore these musicians have more credibility, more substance. Who gets to define who, why and what? For me being classically trained means singers and musicians raised in the Black Church. A form of art , music, performance art I thought would come and go has been around damn near 40 years. As I mentioned before people know what they like and don't like, it isn't rocket science.

Yes, they are artists, in a sense, but certainly not real musicians. If you can't play an instrument or arrange music, then they shouldn't be labled as such. It isn't snobbery, it is just simply quality control.

You obviously don't know many Rap/Hip-Hop songs. There are rappers who DO play instruments. And there are rappers with great voices. "This general idea that rappers are actually musicians is rather hilarious", who do you think you are? You know what's rather hilarious? Your view on the Rap/Hip-Hop genre, that's obviously a joke considering you are over here trying to go in on it when clearly you don't know what the Hell you're talking about. Why are you a troll? Do you like being one?

And also, EVERY SINGLE TIME a rapper is called a musician, the person saying it is not always trying to imply "this person plays an instrument or multipule instruments as a profession". It's just the name you call somebody who makes music.

No, I probably know more about Hip Hop and Rap than you, I just outgrew it. As a musician, rappers being called a "musician" it is just an annoyance and a giant misclassification in terms of musicianship. If they aren't having a hand in composing, programming, or arranging the song, then they really shouldn't be called a musician. Lyricist at the very most...calling a rapper a musician is similar to a Micky D's fry cook being called a Five Star Chef....two different leagues.

I really enjoy the technical aspect of Hip Hop and Rap, creative sampling, original songs, aggressive bass lines, tight sequences. Naturally when it is done correctly the results can be beautiful....

Why? You have musicians and arrangers who know theory and harmony, something your average MC knows nothing about.

That's a bad analogy because you make it seem as if all musicians are 5 star musicians, and they're not. Had you said "calling a rapper a musician is like calling a Micky D's fry cook a chef" then I'd see your point, but you seem to be more interested in shitting on rappers than actually making a legitimate point.