so, volume 1 and 2 have been completed by now, with the extra tracks on the physical releases

that makes a total of 10 tracks:

Volume 1: Songs For A Sailor

01. Teargarden Theme

02. A Song For A Son

03. A Stitch In Time

04. Astral Planes

05. Window Wake My Mind

Volume 2: The Solstice Bare

01. The Fellowship

02. Freak

03. Tom Tom

04. Spangled

05. Cottonwood Symphony

and to my delight, billy seems to have finally reconnected with his original muse, to a certain

extent. each and every one of these songs sounds at the very least healthy. and there are a

decent amount of moments that make me feel like i'm listening to vintage pumpkins era songs.

great stuff so far, can't wait to hear the rest. if he's gonna continue with 9 more 4 track EP's,

plus adding a bonus track to each one of them, we're gonna end up with a 55 track 'project',

since 'album' seems insufficient for such a mega package.

i only hoop he keeps up this buzz he's on right now.

sure, there are a few moments, especially in the lyrics, where you go "ouch", but all in all, i'm

very pleased to finally have some decent new pumpkins songs, for the first time since Volume

2 of Machina was released online.

No James, No D'Arcy = No Smashing Pumpkins.

Billy thinks he's Trent Reznor. But he ain't even close.

"Zeitgeist" was a joke of an album compared to past releases.

That said, I still have a slight interest in hearing this material.

Militant said:

No James, No D'Arcy = No Smashing Pumpkins.

Billy thinks he's Trent Reznor. But he ain't even close.

"Zeitgeist" was a joke of an album compared to past releases.

That said, I still have a slight interest in hearing this material.

Isn't it true that even on Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness that Billy and Jimmy basically played everything (barring the odd song that James wrote and/or sang)? Do you consider those albums the Smashing Pumpkins?

rialb said:

Militant said:

No James, No D'Arcy = No Smashing Pumpkins.

Billy thinks he's Trent Reznor. But he ain't even close.

"Zeitgeist" was a joke of an album compared to past releases.

That said, I still have a slight interest in hearing this material.

Isn't it true that even on Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness that Billy and Jimmy basically played everything (barring the odd song that James wrote and/or sang)? Do you consider those albums the Smashing Pumpkins?

Oh for real???

Timmy84 said:

rialb said:

Isn't it true that even on Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness that Billy and Jimmy basically played everything (barring the odd song that James wrote and/or sang)? Do you consider those albums the Smashing Pumpkins?

Oh for real???

Whoops, not quite. Apparently it was Gish and Siames Dream that was primarily recorded by Billy and Jimmy. James and D'Arcy were much more involved in Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness.

rialb said:

Timmy84 said:

Oh for real???

Whoops, not quite. Apparently it was Gish and Siames Dream that was primarily recorded by Billy and Jimmy. James and D'Arcy were much more involved in Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness.

Oh I thought so.

Well, what's also worth remembering is the role of the producer. In their "classic era" the producers working with SP had as much input as the band, and may as well have been additional bandmembers. I'm talking specifically about Butch Vig's role on "Siamese Dream" and Flood on "Melon Collie", "Adore","Machina".

Post the break-up of the original band, when you're already losing the input of James and D'Arcy, to not have a real solid producer pushing you to your limits as well, is a mistake. "Zeitgeist" just sounds like a Billy Corgan solo album, not a SP album.

It's not just about people's writing contributions, but whether they are sycophantic yes-men or not. Everyone knows that James and D'Arcy challenged Billy and didn't just let him do whatever random shit he wanted. There was cohesion, there was that bouncing around of ideas for a shared vision.

The same thing Prince had with Wendy & Lisa.

Jimmy's is more of a yes man because he was fired due to his drug problems and his role in Jonathan Melvoin's overdose. He'll never challenge Billy's authority so his role is simply that of a good drummer and nothing more.

Militant said:

Well, what's also worth remembering is the role of the producer. In their "classic era" the producers working with SP had as much input as the band, and may as well have been additional bandmembers. I'm talking specifically about Butch Vig's role on "Siamese Dream" and Flood on "Melon Collie", "Adore","Machina".

Post the break-up of the original band, when you're already losing the input of James and D'Arcy, to not have a real solid producer pushing you to your limits as well, is a mistake. "Zeitgeist" just sounds like a Billy Corgan solo album, not a SP album.

It's not just about people's writing contributions, but whether they are sycophantic yes-men or not. Everyone knows that James and D'Arcy challenged Billy and didn't just let him do whatever random shit he wanted. There was cohesion, there was that bouncing around of ideas for a shared vision.

The same thing Prince had with Wendy & Lisa.

Jimmy's is more of a yes man because he was fired due to his drug problems and his role in Jonathan Melvoin's overdose. He'll never challenge Billy's authority so his role is simply that of a good drummer and nothing more.

I have to strongly disagree with you regarding Jimmy's contributions. Just compare Adore to any other album from the original band and you will hear what Jimmy brought to the band. Shoot, Mary Star of the Sea arguably sounds more like the Smashing Pumpkins than Adore does. Jimmy was one of the best rock drummer's of his generation, I don't see how James and D'Arcy's limited contributions come anywhere near Jimmy's.

I would further argue that Zeitgeist sounds absolutely nothing like TheFutureEmbrace.

rialb said:

I have to strongly disagree with you regarding Jimmy's contributions. Just compare Adore to any other album from the original band and you will hear what Jimmy brought to the band. Shoot, Mary Star of the Sea arguably sounds more like the Smashing Pumpkins than Adore does. Jimmy was one of the best rock drummer's of his generation, I don't see how James and D'Arcy's limited contributions come anywhere near Jimmy's.

I would further argue that Zeitgeist sounds absolutely nothing like TheFutureEmbrace.

You missed my point. I was referring to Jimmy's personality and I already stated he was a talented drummer.

But something is missing, post breakup, and everyone can see it, from casual fans to hardcore fans. If it's not the lack of James and D'Arcy, explain why the albums with those two rock, and Zeitgeist sucked ass?

Zeitgeist doesn't sound like TheFutureEmbrace because Billy was deliberately trying to make a record that sounded nothing like SP when he made FutureEmbrace. Zeitgeist to me sounds like he's trying to sound like classic SP and failing.

The new drummer can play everything Jimmy played. That's why he was chosen.

D'arcy was never more than an average bassist (at best). Melissa was definitely better. Ginger was probably a little better, but not a whole lot. I've not decided what I think of the new one yet, but I do think it odd that he's purposely choosing female bass players.

It's been pretty well documented now that Billy played a majority of the guitar and bass parts on Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie. And he's certainly always been the primary (near only) songwriter. But that doesn't speak to the magic he and James created live. I saw them many times together and I've seen the Pumpkins many times since James left the bad. Their mind reading two guitar attack was special and the new guy (don't remember his name) doesn't share it. He's good. He plays the parts correctly and doesn't screw up his couple of solo breaks, but it just doesn't feel the same.

I agree about the producers having an affect on the sound and style of each album to a certain extent. I think probably Butch Vig had the most affect on Siamese Dream. But Billy has always been a control freak. The Pumpkins are always exactly what he wants them to be because he could easily work with those producers again if he chose to.

More than anything, though, I don't think they (Billy) ever recovered from the evolution of their music and fame from Gish through Mellon Collie. After those three albums (including Siamese Dream) when they had gone from underground, to college band, to alternative band, to one of the biggest rock bands in the world, and achieved just as much artistic recognition, everything started falling apart. In a lot of ways I think that Billy had shot his most creative load with the hundred or so (including b-sides and unreleased demos) he wrote around the Mellon Collie sessions. Once that bubble burst and things started to go bad he's just never been exactly the same.

I AM still a HUGE fan. I always will be. And I think a few of the new songs are great. But I don't think all of them are and I doubt they ever will be.

Unfortunately, even with getting to hear the songs for free, I'm tired of this release plan/schedule. I didn't even order the second set. I just want to hear a bunch of songs at one time.

Why didn't Zwan get any love? The songs are all crazy good

abigail05 said:

Why didn't Zwan get any love? The songs are all crazy good

I thought Zwan got a lot of love. But they broke up quickly because a couple of the other members couldn't deal with Billy's shit (at least that's the way I've heard it told). There's a few songs Billy wrote during that time, but never recorded, that I've always wished he would dust off and use with the new Pumpkins.

Militant said:

rialb said:

I have to strongly disagree with you regarding Jimmy's contributions. Just compare Adore to any other album from the original band and you will hear what Jimmy brought to the band. Shoot, Mary Star of the Sea arguably sounds more like the Smashing Pumpkins than Adore does. Jimmy was one of the best rock drummer's of his generation, I don't see how James and D'Arcy's limited contributions come anywhere near Jimmy's.

I would further argue that Zeitgeist sounds absolutely nothing like TheFutureEmbrace.

You missed my point. I was referring to Jimmy's personality and I already stated he was a talented drummer.

But something is missing, post breakup, and everyone can see it, from casual fans to hardcore fans. If it's not the lack of James and D'Arcy, explain why the albums with those two rock, and Zeitgeist sucked ass?

Zeitgeist doesn't sound like TheFutureEmbrace because Billy was deliberately trying to make a record that sounded nothing like SP when he made FutureEmbrace. Zeitgeist to me sounds like he's trying to sound like classic SP and failing.

I'm still not sure what exactly you think James and D'Arcy brought to the band's studio recordings and why their personalities were "better" than Jimmy's. A lot of folks would cite Siamese Dream as their best album and James and D'Arcy didn't have a lot to do with it. I think James got two co-writes but otherwise it's pretty much all Billy and Jimmy. If you took the songs with James' input off and replaced them with some of the excellent b-side matreial solely written by Billy from that era would the album be appreciably worse?

I agree that something is missing but I'm not convinced that if the original four were still together that things would be any better. As Cerebus pointed out it is possible that Billy "shot his most creative load" circa 1991-1995. Most bands only have a limited number of years at their best and after that it's a case of diminishing returns, why would you expect the Pumpkins, with or without James and D'Arcy, to be any different?

abigail05 said:

Why didn't Zwan get any love? The songs are all crazy good

I've been listening to that album quite a bit lately and I agree. I wouldn't rate it as highly as Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness but it might be the third best album that Billy has released.

but have you guys actually listened to the new songs [except cerebus, who has]?

you can download most of them for free at their official websites:

www.smashingpumpkins.com

I've only heard the new songs a couple of times but I like them well enough. I don't expect Billy to ever hit the heights he did early in his career and as long as you keep your expectations in check the new stuff is pretty good.

rialb said:

I've only heard the new songs a couple of times but I like them well enough. I don't expect Billy to ever hit the heights he did early in his career and as long as you keep your expectations in check the new stuff is pretty good.

agreed. i didn't like Zeitgeist at all and most of his solo album wasn't that interesting either.

but the new songs seem to breathe a bit more life and hark back to more interesting ideas

in songwriting than the very bland things he did after machina II [well, zwan being the only

slight exception to this rule since that project was kinda cool but].

i'm hoping for a few electro heavy songs next

Militant said:

Has Billy mentioned if these tracks are going to be collected on full length cd's? I would buy the individual ep's but twenty bucks is a bit too much. If he releases the whole thing as a double (or triple) album I will definitely buy it.

MaryStarOfTheSea said:

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess that you were a fan of Zwan.

I just cannot get into anything beyond Adore (Adore being my favorite, with Mellon Collie a close 2nd). I am not sure where Billy went with his songwriting, but I really just don't think there's ANY good songs on Zeitgeist, the Zwan album, or most of Machina I and II (less than 1 traditional CD's worth of good tracks imo, more like an EP).

Truthfully, I think Billy is just full of shit. I read the interview he did with RS last year and he's just creepy and smug. His relationship with Tila Tequila is extremely bizarre. And, frankly, I just don't find him to be very talented anymore.

However, I'll reiterate what others have said and that is that SP is primarily Billy and Jimmy, when it comes to actual composition and recording. Not so, for James and Darcy, in fact. Not much substance is truly lost with their departures and I can't say I gave a shit about SP's visuals (sorry, but billy has always been super inadvertently creepy to watch) so I'm not missing much!

Spinlight said:

I just cannot get into anything beyond Adore (Adore being my favorite, with Mellon Collie a close 2nd). I am not sure where Billy went with his songwriting, but I really just don't think there's ANY good songs on Zeitgeist, the Zwan album, or most of Machina I and II (less than 1 traditional CD's worth of good tracks imo, more like an EP).

Truthfully, I think Billy is just full of shit. I read the interview he did with RS last year and he's just creepy and smug. His relationship with Tila Tequila is extremely bizarre. And, frankly, I just don't find him to be very talented anymore.

However, I'll reiterate what others have said and that is that SP is primarily Billy and Jimmy, when it comes to actual composition and recording. Not so, for James and Darcy, in fact. Not much substance is truly lost with their departures and I can't say I gave a shit about SP's visuals (sorry, but billy has always been super inadvertently creepy to watch) so I'm not missing much!

It's interesting that you didn't care for the Machina era as I thought it was a very strong return to form. I don't dislike Adore but as a Smashing Pumpkins album it doesn't quite work for me. I think that had Machina been released as the followup to Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness that it would have been a bit more successful as it wasn't that far away from the sound of their previous albums. I also can't help wondering what Adore would have sounded like if Jimmy was in the band when it was recorded. I believe that Billy wanted to go in a different direction after Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness and there's a good chance that Adore would have ended up the same but with Jimmy gone I'm sure it made it easier for Billy to try something completely different.

I do wish we could get a better sounding version of Machina II. I understand that it was ripped from vinyl but it still sounds pretty terrible. After Billy resurrected the Pumpkins name I thought that maybe we would get a cd release but even a quality vinyl rip would be a huge improvement.