Militant said:

Arnotts said:

Ok I've only just come back to these threads after months of missing them so maybe all the talk on the new album is over, but I'm listening to some of the songs on youtube (as I'm refusing to buy it so far) and I have a few questions and comments.

So far out of the ones I've listened to is it Hollywood Tonight, Keep Your Head Up, Monster and Breaking News that people dont think are Michael? They're the ones that made me raise an eyebrow (especially Keep your head up which sounds like they've put a random snippet of the damn elephant part of earth song in it and maybe an invincible ad lib in Monster). It actually makes me furious as I continue listening as even if they were Michael they've distorted his voice beyond recognition where its not worth buying anyway. Its also like they've put every single Michael cliche they could possibly think of which is another reason I'm inclined to believe its not him at all. Those songs happen to be pretty bland too. So who here bought this and who didnt? I love the few songs that sounds like him so I'm torn on whether to get it or not just for them.

Breaking News, Keep Your Head Up, and Monster are the three fake songs.

Hollywood Tonight is real and is actually Michael, apart from the spoken part, which as bboy says, is done by Tarryl Jackson.

And yes, Keep Your Head Up does have pasted in adlibs from "Earth Song". There was even more of them in the version that leaked a couple weeks before the album lol. It's ridiculous.

Oh thanks for explaining that, I thought I was going crazy with the whole thing. I must have listened to the orginal leaks on youtube and the actual album version now

Militant said:

Arnotts said:

Ok I've only just come back to these threads after months of missing them so maybe all the talk on the new album is over, but I'm listening to some of the songs on youtube (as I'm refusing to buy it so far) and I have a few questions and comments.

So far out of the ones I've listened to is it Hollywood Tonight, Keep Your Head Up, Monster and Breaking News that people dont think are Michael? They're the ones that made me raise an eyebrow (especially Keep your head up which sounds like they've put a random snippet of the damn elephant part of earth song in it and maybe an invincible ad lib in Monster). It actually makes me furious as I continue listening as even if they were Michael they've distorted his voice beyond recognition where its not worth buying anyway. Its also like they've put every single Michael cliche they could possibly think of which is another reason I'm inclined to believe its not him at all. Those songs happen to be pretty bland too. So who here bought this and who didnt? I love the few songs that sounds like him so I'm torn on whether to get it or not just for them.

Breaking News, Keep Your Head Up, and Monster are the three fake songs.

Hollywood Tonight is real and is actually Michael, apart from the spoken part, which as bboy says, is done by Tarryl Jackson.

And yes, Keep Your Head Up does have pasted in adlibs from "Earth Song". There was even more of them in the version that leaked a couple weeks before the album lol. It's ridiculous.

Oh, and I'm with bboy. "Bad" and "Dangerous" smoke "Thriller" and "Off The Wall" for songwriting. Without question. Deeper topics, more of MICHAEL's personality shining through since he wrote more of the songs himself, more range. As a professional songwriter myself, it's "Bad", "Dangerous" and "HIStory" that inspire me the most of all Michael's work.

"Off The Wall" and "Thriller" are classic albums, no doubt. But the songwriting range is limited and dominated by simple love songs. The later albums covered racism, drugs, socio-political topics, oppression, discrimination, humanitarianism, betrayal, crime, greed, the agenda of the media and corporations, and more.

Even the love songs on these albums are deeper, covering lost love, unreturned feelings, people confusing lust with love, etc. As opposed to the "Girl you're so hot and I love you" simplicity of many of the songs on "Off The Wall" and "Thriller".

Anyone who thinks the songwriting palette on those first two albums is better than the later albums, is simply wrong. It's not a question of taste. You can PREFER which songs you want.

But objectively, Michael's songwriting improved dramatically throughout the 80's and 90's.

70's and early 80's Michael could not have written "Smooth Criminal", "Money", "Blood on The Dancefloor", "Earth Song", "Tabloid Junkie", "Why You Wanna Trip On Me?", "History", "Morphine", etc. He simply was not a skilled enough songwriter, at that time.

It's the same with most artists. Prince of 1978 probably could not have written things like "Sign O' The Times" or "Anna Stesia". The Beatles, when they first started, did not have the songwriting skills they later developed that led to such albums as "Sgt Peppers", etc.

Just like most skills, songwriting is something that you get better at, the more you do. This is the case for the vast majority of artists. I've been a professional artist for 7 years, and I know there's no way I could have written the songs I write now, when I started.

Speaking on songwriting, I saw someone on Niketalk say that Taylor Swift is more of a songwriter than Michael because get this:

Michael never wrote any of the lyrics to his songs

and

He would come up with parts to already existing music

to them, that's why Michael gets sole songwriting credit on several of his songs

The guy said he got that info from the interview parts on the special edition of Thriller

China

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/2207206doi31cvidccz33l.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/02/160106u0umkn0u5un4p4yp.jpg[/img:$uid]

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Just heard Much Too Soon, when was it recorded?

Arnotts said:

Just heard Much Too Soon, when was it recorded?

Originally 1981 but apparently, the version on Michael is from 1994

I personally believe MJ best ballad was "time waits for noone" written for him by his brothers. Infact his brothers should have written more songs for him, they seemed to have known what suited him best.

As time went he wrote more of his own songs, but I don't necessarily believe the songs he wrote himself were better than what others wrote for him. Songs like "Bad" and "Black and White" just sound childish to me and he delivered them in a very childish way too, whereas songs like "Billie Jean" sound more complex and mature. Songs like "Human Nature" and "Rock With You" which were written for him suited him and became vintage Michael Jackson.

whatsgoingon said:

I personally believe MJ best ballad was "time waits for noone" written for him by his brothers. Infact his brothers should have written more songs for him, they seemed to have known what suited him best.

As time went he wrote more of his own songs, but I don't necessarily believe the songs he wrote himself were better than what others wrote for him. Songs like "Bad" and "Black and White" just sound childish to me and he delivered them in a very childish way too, whereas songs like "Billie Jean" sound more complex and mature. Songs like "Human Nature" and "Rock With You" which were written for him suited him and became vintage Michael Jackson.

Love that song...never fails to give me goosebumps...

whatsgoingon said:

I personally believe MJ best ballad was "time waits for noone" written for him by his brothers.

Totally. In general I don't really like ballads. I almost NEVER listen to "The Lady In My Life" or "She's Out Of My Life", but i LOVE "Time Waits For No One". I like the way it builds into that massive crescendo at the end.

As for songwriting, you need to dig deeper than what was released as singles.

bboy87 said:

China

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/2207206doi31cvidccz33l.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/02/160106u0umkn0u5un4p4yp.jpg[/img:$uid]

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[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/210410z0yxa0o0lw16d6la.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/2112068tlwwz3221emtii4.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/213937m3qeh4m5cec2qeq3.jpg[/img:$uid]

[Edited 1/3/11 9:42am]

bboy87 said:

Militant said:

Breaking News, Keep Your Head Up, and Monster are the three fake songs.

Hollywood Tonight is real and is actually Michael, apart from the spoken part, which as bboy says, is done by Tarryl Jackson.

And yes, Keep Your Head Up does have pasted in adlibs from "Earth Song". There was even more of them in the version that leaked a couple weeks before the album lol. It's ridiculous.

Oh, and I'm with bboy. "Bad" and "Dangerous" smoke "Thriller" and "Off The Wall" for songwriting. Without question. Deeper topics, more of MICHAEL's personality shining through since he wrote more of the songs himself, more range. As a professional songwriter myself, it's "Bad", "Dangerous" and "HIStory" that inspire me the most of all Michael's work.

"Off The Wall" and "Thriller" are classic albums, no doubt. But the songwriting range is limited and dominated by simple love songs. The later albums covered racism, drugs, socio-political topics, oppression, discrimination, humanitarianism, betrayal, crime, greed, the agenda of the media and corporations, and more.

Even the love songs on these albums are deeper, covering lost love, unreturned feelings, people confusing lust with love, etc. As opposed to the "Girl you're so hot and I love you" simplicity of many of the songs on "Off The Wall" and "Thriller".

Anyone who thinks the songwriting palette on those first two albums is better than the later albums, is simply wrong. It's not a question of taste. You can PREFER which songs you want.

But objectively, Michael's songwriting improved dramatically throughout the 80's and 90's.

70's and early 80's Michael could not have written "Smooth Criminal", "Money", "Blood on The Dancefloor", "Earth Song", "Tabloid Junkie", "Why You Wanna Trip On Me?", "History", "Morphine", etc. He simply was not a skilled enough songwriter, at that time.

It's the same with most artists. Prince of 1978 probably could not have written things like "Sign O' The Times" or "Anna Stesia". The Beatles, when they first started, did not have the songwriting skills they later developed that led to such albums as "Sgt Peppers", etc.

Just like most skills, songwriting is something that you get better at, the more you do. This is the case for the vast majority of artists. I've been a professional artist for 7 years, and I know there's no way I could have written the songs I write now, when I started.

Speaking on songwriting, I saw someone on Niketalk say that Taylor Swift is more of a songwriter than Michael because get this:

Michael never wrote any of the lyrics to his songs

and

He would come up with parts to already existing music

to them, that's why Michael gets sole songwriting credit on several of his songs

The guy said he got that info from the interview parts on the special edition of Thriller

Inaccurate. Michael did write the lyrics and compostions of songs he wrote solely by himself. There is no information on the special edition of Thriller stating Michael never wrote the lyrics to his own songs, or that he only came up with parts to existing music. Listen to the Bad (Special Edition) and you will hear Quincy Jones saying that Michael is (in Q's words) "an amazing songwriter", and that what he liked about Michael's creation of songs is that he thinks out of the box.

Who ever thinks Tylor Swift is more of a songwriter than Michael, needs to be sectioned

Militant said:

whatsgoingon said:

I personally believe MJ best ballad was "time waits for noone" written for him by his brothers.

Totally. In general I don't really like ballads. I almost NEVER listen to "The Lady In My Life" or "She's Out Of My Life", but i LOVE "Time Waits For No One". I like the way it builds into that massive crescendo at the end.

As for songwriting, you need to dig deeper than what was released as singles.

I do. But imo I think his song writting was 50/50. I don't think his albums were better because he wrote most of the songs himself. Alot of his very best songs, imo, were songs that were written for him. I also feel has time went on his delivery of a song became weaker, as well as his subjects. The funk and soul just basically left his music, which was replaced with pop/rock and watered down RnB.

whatsgoingon said:

I do. But imo I think his song writting was 50/50. I don't think his albums were better because he wrote most of the songs himself. Alot of his very best songs, imo, were songs that were written for him. I also feel has time went on his delivery of a song became weaker, as well as his subjects. The funk and soul just basically left his music, which was replaced with pop/rock and watered down RnB.

I think we're having different conversations

I'm talking about Michael evolving as a songwriter, so vocal delivery and songs written by others don't really come into the equation.

There's no way his subjects/topics became weaker. No way. HIStory Disc 2 alone has a wider subject range than anything pre-87.

whatsgoingon said:

I do. But imo I think his song writting was 50/50. I don't think his albums were better because he wrote most of the songs himself. Alot of his very best songs, imo, were songs that were written for him. I also feel has time went on his delivery of a song became weaker, as well as his subjects. The funk and soul just basically left his music, which was replaced with pop/rock and watered down RnB.

I don't see how less funk and soul = inferior songs? I don't get this. Logically it doesn't make any sense to me. I think it's just real funk and soul fans who feel that MJ shafted them, but I don't think that made his music inferior to his earlier work though.

Also as Militant said, I also don't understand why you think his subject matter became 'weaker.' Even for Destiny what was each song about:

Blame it on the Boogie = Dancing/Partying

That's What You Get For Being Polite = Getting taken advantage of

Shake Your Body Down To The Ground = Dancing/Partying

Things I Do For You = Getting taken advantage of

All Night Dancin' = Dancing/Partying

Push Me Away = Love/Break up

Destiny = Trying to find your own path (or life) after getting taken advantage of

Compare that to Dangerous or even Bad, you got an entire world of difference right there.

bboy87 said:

China

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/2207206doi31cvidccz33l.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/02/160106u0umkn0u5un4p4yp.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/205401kpa1zypkino1pa61.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/210410z0yxa0o0lw16d6la.jpg

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/2112068tlwwz3221emtii4.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/213937m3qeh4m5cec2qeq3.jpg[/img:$uid]

I love Chinese fans I swear...

dag said:

I´ve just had a heartattack!

They need to release an uncensored version of this thing.

[Edited 1/1/11 14:39pm]

Can´t believe noone has commented on this, ladies. I almost didn´t survive those few minutes and nobody else seems to care. Why did I bother posting this?

dag said:

dag said:

I´ve just had a heartattack!

They need to release an uncensored version of this thing.

[Edited 1/1/11 14:39pm]

Can´t believe noone has commented on this, ladies. I almost didn´t survive those few minutes and nobody else seems to care. Why did I bother posting this?

Because they weren't at the thread when you posted it.

Timmy84 said:

dag said:

Can´t believe noone has commented on this, ladies. I almost didn´t survive those few minutes and nobody else seems to care. Why did I bother posting this?

Because they weren't at the thread when you posted it.

I guess so cause I expected few fainted orgers. I sent it to one of my friends and she replied "wtf are you doing to me? You almost killed me! I couldn´t breathe!"

dag said:

dag said:

I´ve just had a heartattack!

They need to release an uncensored version of this thing.

[Edited 1/1/11 14:39pm]

Can´t believe noone has commented on this, ladies. I almost didn´t survive those few minutes and nobody else seems to care. Why did I bother posting this?

I was sparing the men here my nasty side...

I did see that...and I died fives times watching.

bboy87 said:

China

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/2207206doi31cvidccz33l.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/02/160106u0umkn0u5un4p4yp.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/205401kpa1zypkino1pa61.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/210410z0yxa0o0lw16d6la.jpg

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/2112068tlwwz3221emtii4.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.mjjcn.com/mjjcnforum/data/attachment/forum/201101/01/213937m3qeh4m5cec2qeq3.jpg[/img:$uid]

Why can't we have things like this in the USA?

EmeraldSkies said:

Why can't we have things like this in the USA?

Because American fans have to get together to make it happen.

Dangerous smokes Off The Wall and Thriller

How can you be a classic album without luv jams? That's impossible. You MUST have that track or tracks that has you chillin with your lady under the fire place...however you get down. Dangerous doesn't have that at all. Should have put the song "Joy" on the album

Also Thriller and Off The Wall still have songs getting radio airplay to this day because the songs have better longevity. "Don't Stop To You Get Enough", "Working Day and Night", "Rock With You", "PYT", "Wanna Be Starting Something" "Billie Jean" are just more suited for dance clubs than tracks on Dangerous. And when the club puts on the slow jam..."Human Nature" and "Lady in My Life" can be played.

MJ's vocals on dance tracks back then was also much better. "She Drives Me Wild", "Can't Let Her Get Away"...The chorus sounds great, but MJ's lead vocals are horrible. "Remember The Time" was great though.

"Off The Wall" filler dance tracks are better than Dangerous best dance tracks

"Get On the Floor" and "Burn this Disco out" kick the ass out of jam, she drives me wild and cant let her get away

Fast dance track where the singer is actually SINGING and using range is just more catchy to the average music fan. On Dangerous with the up tempo he was more grunting with the voice

Catchy to the die hard fan base, but not to the average music fan.

Its cool to sing like that sometimes, but it seems every dance track he started singing like that. Maybe he couldnt sing fast and smooth anymore.

BabyBeMine said:

How can you be a classic album without luv jams? That's impossible.

Yeah ITA. That's exactly why no one considers Marvin Gaye's What's Going On to be a classic album by any means. He should have known better than to keep those luv jams off of that album. Especially since he's a black r&b artist. It's mandatory that they have at least, ONE luv jam in order to have a decent album.

BabyBeMine said:

Also Thriller and Off The Wall still have songs getting radio airplay to this day because the songs have better longevity. "Don't Stop To You Get Enough", "Working Day and Night", "Rock With You", "PYT", "Wanna Be Starting Something" "Billie Jean" are just more suited for dance clubs than tracks on Dangerous. And when the club puts on the slow jam..."Human Nature" and "Lady in My Life" can be played.

I still hear Dangerous tracks on the radio and there are already a ton of remixes for those songs, especially since the clubs/bars I frequent usually play remixes. Though...does it matter what songs are played at a club though? I rarely hear Jimi Hendrix being played at a club. Does that mean his songs have less longevity, because of it?!

BabyBeMine said:

MJ's vocals on dance tracks back then was also much better. "She Drives Me Wild", "Can't Let Her Get Away"...The chorus sounds great, but MJ's lead vocals are horrible. "Remember The Time" was great though.

Opinions.

BabyBeMine said:

"Off The Wall" filler dance tracks are better than Dangerous best dance tracks

NO.

To the mainstream and non fans Michael's best dance tracks and slow jams were on those two albums.

I don't care if your a fan of rock, pop, country, everyone will get up and get their groove on when "Dont Stop To You Get Enough" comes on. Top 5 all time dance track

Dangerous and even History have good tracks, but no classics

No it's not mandatory. It just gives the album better balance when you have fast songs that make you want to dance, and that luv jam for when your lady comes over.

Relationship type songs will always be popular. You will always have that 18 year old teenager who's girl left him, or her boyfriend left her, or your in luv...etc

BabyBeMine said:

To the mainstream and non fans Michael's best dance tracks and slow jams were on those two albums.

I don't care if your a fan of rock, pop, country, everyone will get up and get their groove on when "Dont Stop To You Get Enough" comes on. Top 5 all time dance track

Dangerous and even History have good tracks, but no classics

No it's not mandatory. It just gives the album better balance when you have fast songs that make you want to dance, and that luv jam for when your lady comes over.

Relationship type songs will always be popular. You will always have that 18 year old teenager who's girl left him, or her boyfriend left her, or your in luv...etc

Aren't Remember The Time, Black Or White, and You Are Not Alone classics?

BabyBeMine said:

To the mainstream and non fans Michael's best dance tracks and slow jams were on those two albums.

To mainstream and non-fans his best work will always be Thriller and what is on that Number Ones cd. Though, I think it really depends on what era you grew up with Michael. This is why I think that the young ones, now will be the best judges. They will grow up with no preconceived notions of the man. All they will hear is the music and see him perform. They will be able to judge the music for what it is rather than relating an image to it.

Ok so I'm back from holidays and 12 days away from the org - so what did I miss? lol

Unholyalliance said:

BabyBeMine said:

To the mainstream and non fans Michael's best dance tracks and slow jams were on those two albums.

To mainstream and non-fans his best work will always be Thriller and what is on that Number Ones cd. Though, I think it really depends on what era you grew up with Michael. This is why I think that the young ones, now will be the best judges. They will grow up with no preconceived notions of the man. All they will hear is the music and see him perform. They will be able to judge the music for what it is rather than relating an image to it.

That's the thing with Michael - fans who grew up with his music at certain times identify with those albums. Those like myself who grew up on OTW and Thriller will always love those albums, but I know hardcore fans who grew up during Bad and Dangerous eras that love those albums more.

For me personally he was still creating great music on HiStory, and good(ish) stuff on Invincible.

I just prefer when MJ actually sings the song. Fast or slow

Grunting and singing with anger is cool on some tracks, but when you start singing every up tempo tracks like this. This is a excuse to not have to sing fast with range.

The angry singing is actually much easier to sing. Especially Live because it doesn't require range. Just sing like your pissed off.

Range is more difficult. Listen to "Behind the Mask" He's singing fast, but he has that range as well, and the vocals are smooth and clear. That's the MJ i like.