suga10 said:

The whole Murray Case is very suspicious. Too many inconsistancies and things which are not adding up.

And Michael Jackson was not some idiot, if he knew bad things were going on- he would take action to resolve it.

Missing surveillance tapes just say it all

[Edited 1/7/11 14:54pm]

bboy87 said:

Wow! So cool hearing and seeing Off The Wall era Mike doing these songs! And extremely interesting seeing him doing those old routines and dance moves from the mid 70's. They really changed it up for the Triumph tour!

[Edited 1/7/11 15:32pm]

[Edited 1/7/11 15:33pm]

I know some fans don't like Lisa Marie, and I understand why, but I have to say that if Michael had someone in his life like her (not necessarily her, but a strong woman, that kind of personality) none of this shit would have happened. You know?

Being in a committed relationship is so grounding because when you have a partner that loves you, they don't put up with any bullshit and they protect you, even protecting you from yourself.

I was first signed to a major label when I was a teenager, and so I've seen my share of all sorts of fucked up shit in this industry, from the hedonistic lifestyles to the people who get trapped inside their own self created world just because they can afford to. My wife is pretty much the only person who keeps me grounded and motivates me to not do anything potentially self-destructive.

I know how much pressure I feel before I tour, and that's like, a month or two at most with crowds of about 5-10k. 50 sold out nights in a 25k arena when you haven't toured in 12 years would scare the shit out of ANYONE. No question. But Michael should never even have considered medication to deal with it. He needed a proper diet plan (none of these eating KFC and drinking soda every day bullshit like he was doing), a proper patterned sleep schedule, a proper workout regime with a personal trainer, and at the very most, NATURAL sleep aids like lavender scents and white noise machines.

Not a fucking incompetent doctor to pump him full of surgery-grade anaesthetics every night to knock him out. But Michael didn't have anybody that would tell him what he was doing was wrong. The bodyguards wouldn't dare. The children weren't old enough. The family weren't close enough to see what was going on. So all you have is sycophantic yes men who just want to keep their jobs and keep their boss happy.

The whole situation is fucked up and tragic on about a MILLION different levels. And the worst thing is, it could have been so different. Michael just needed ONE person who really cared, with a strong enough relationship to where he wouldn't just shut them out at the first minor disagreement.

kibbles said:

suga10 said:

The whole Murray Case is very suspicious. Too many inconsistancies and things which are not adding up.

And Michael Jackson was not some idiot, if he knew bad things were going on- he would take action to resolve it.

Missing surveillance tapes just say it all

[Edited 1/7/11 14:54pm]

i agree with you; mj wasn't an idiot. if murray had been this bungling and incompetent, mj would have had a clue long before this day. he had been seeing murray for 1 or 2 years. that's a long enough time to figure out what type of doctor or person you're dealing with. so that leaves us with the obvious answer: murray knew exactly what he was doing by waiting 20 min. or longer to call 911. you don't have to be a doctors to know that a person cannot go longer than a few minutes without air. he didn't want mj alive to tell a different story than the one he wanted told, imho.

What's also weird is that the paramedics could not recognize Michael. How is that even possible?

We all saw that picture of Michael in the ambulance.

This case makes no sense.

[Edited 1/7/11 16:41pm]

[Edited 1/7/11 16:41pm]

Poem By A Fan

don't cry because he is gone, dance so he lives on..................

The bigger the celebrity, the bigger the target - Michael Jackson

There was none bigger than Michael Jackson.

“A million times we've needed you,
A million tears we've cried.
If love alone could have saved you,
You never would have died.
In life we loved you dearly,
In death we love you still,
In our hearts you hold a place,
No one else will ever fill.
It broke our hearts to lose you,
But you didn't go alone,
Part of us went with you,
The day He called you home.
Your memory is our keepsake,
With which we will never part,
God has you in his keeping,
We have you in our heart”.

Our lives go by at lightning speed, we laugh, we dance, we sing, we cry, we mourn, we pray, we love and we live. Some people come into our lives and quickly go, some stay for a while and leave footprints on our hearts and we are never ever the same.

I am proud to say I am a fan and have followed his career through the 40 plus years, I watched him grow from a child prodigy into a global icon who died too soon, he was a phenomenon and a once in a lifetime talent and we were blessed to witness his genius. His musical talent was beyond extraordinary and when you revisit the words to his songs, poems and writings it becomes more and more evident that he was a gifted visionary and was no ordinary man or spirit by far. His time on this earth was spent talking and singing about love, harmony, peace and healing the planet, he gave us hope both through his songs and his humanitarian efforts. There was so much more to him than meets the eye. The mark he left on music and popular culture will surely never fade and I will remember him forever for his philanthropy and will always admire him because he opened his wallet, his home and most importantly his heart, he gave the underprivileged, the sick and the dying children of the world a sense of self worth. I witnessed a whole life go by and now it is over, he was human, no more and certainley no less.

When I hear a song, see a picture, I will stop and remember you fondly with smiles, love and always, as a sincere, caring human being who wanted nothing more than to “Heal the World”. Michael, thank you for sharing your God-given talent and giving us a lifetime of your heart. A heavy laden soul now at peace.

Like all the greats, he left behind his art to be enjoyed forever. don't cry because he is gone, dance so he lives on..................

http://www.michaeljackson...de/1057823

suga10 said:

kibbles said:

i agree with you; mj wasn't an idiot. if murray had been this bungling and incompetent, mj would have had a clue long before this day. he had been seeing murray for 1 or 2 years. that's a long enough time to figure out what type of doctor or person you're dealing with. so that leaves us with the obvious answer: murray knew exactly what he was doing by waiting 20 min. or longer to call 911. you don't have to be a doctors to know that a person cannot go longer than a few minutes without air. he didn't want mj alive to tell a different story than the one he wanted told, imho.

What's also weird is that the paramedics could not recognize Michael. How is that even possible?

We all saw that picture of Michael in the ambulance.

This case makes no sense.

[Edited 1/7/11 16:21pm]

well, think about it: mj was in his pjs, not wearing his extension with a sleep cap on. although he's always been thin, he had never really recovered his weight from the stress of the '05 trial. he probably wasn't wearing any "mj" makeup.

compound that with the fact that he's deceased now, and his body isn't animated, it's starting to collapse. as the emt said, the room looked like that of a hospice care patient with the iv drip and all. in that context, i can see them not recognizing mj. (also, someone was stating at another board that the ambulance photo is a hoax.)

[Edited 1/7/11 16:38pm]

Harvey Levin said this about the trial:

http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/05/tmz-live- ... s-answered twitter question : how long will MJ trial last?

Harvey answers: this is not the trial just the prelim, 30 witnesses bla bla bla and then the judge will decide if Michael Jackson should stand trial...

So 3 months supposedly

Wow.

[Edited 1/7/11 17:03pm]

kibbles said:

suga10 said:

The whole Murray Case is very suspicious. Too many inconsistancies and things which are not adding up.

And Michael Jackson was not some idiot, if he knew bad things were going on- he would take action to resolve it.

Missing surveillance tapes just say it all

[Edited 1/7/11 14:54pm]

i agree with you; mj wasn't an idiot. if murray had been this bungling and incompetent, mj would have had a clue long before this day. he had been seeing murray for 1 or 2 years. that's a long enough time to figure out what type of doctor or person you're dealing with. so that leaves us with the obvious answer: murray knew exactly what he was doing by waiting 20 min. or longer to call 911. you don't have to be a doctors to know that a person cannot go longer than a few minutes without air. he didn't want mj alive to tell a different story than the one he wanted told, imho.

You're saying it was intentional? It was stupid, yes.. but I'm not sure about intentional.

He was just another Dr. Feel Good trying to please his boss in whatever way possible.

WildStyle said:

bboy87 said:

Wow! So cool hearing and seeing Off The Wall era Mike doing these songs! And extremely interesting seeing him doing those old routines and dance moves from the mid 70's. They really changed it up for the Triumph tour!

[Edited 1/7/11 15:32pm]

[Edited 1/7/11 15:33pm]

I know. This was the most stripped down considering how elaborate the Victory Tour was

MJ's death was not intentional. It was a tragic accident that could/should have been avoided and Dr Murray is certainly at the centre of the fault here.

I understand other fan's pain and frustration over what is going on - but I think we all have to remember how we felt as fans when MJ was on trail back in 05 and how much we all hated the witch hunt and death threats being levelled about.

I think we all have to take a breath and let the legal process go about things - by the looks of it there is enough evidence to warrant it going to trial (and the fact the defence isn't offering any argument at this stage makes it look like even they know it is going to trial).

Stay focused on the positive MJ brought to the world and don't get caught up in the wasted emotion of hate.

Swa said:

MJ's death was not intentional.

I'm in two minds about this, actually. I really, really, want to believe it wasn't intentional. But the more I hear, the more I realize we just can't rule it out. What doctor leaves their patient alone for that long after injecting such a massive amount of such a powerful substance? I know MEDICAL STUDENTS that know better than that.

Then you look at the extortionate amounts of money people have made since then. Whether it's Sony, AEG, hell, even the Estate. Let's not forget that the will that assigns Branca & McClain as executors is widely believed to be fake.

I am heavily questioning some of the Estate's decisions too. Aside from the whole business with the fake songs.

Have you heard all this business about Branca and McClain kicking Alejanda, Genevieve, Donte, Randy Jr, etc out of the Hayvenhurst house just because it legally belongs to the Estate? But they were living there when Michael was alive and he didn't have a problem with it. Michael didn't buy that property so that he could make the decisions about who gets to live there and who doesn't. The whole thing just seems shady to me. Alejandra is one thing, but why kick these kids out of their home? So half the house can be empty? How does it benefit them to do that? Michael would have NEVER co-signed such actions. Never.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories - but you can't deny that there are people that wanted MJ "taken out". He knew it himself. Like he said "you'll do anything for money".

None of us can say this was definitely the case. But, I absolutely believe that we shouldn't rule it out, either.

[Edited 1/7/11 18:13pm]

Swa said:

MJ's death was not intentional. It was a tragic accident that could/should have been avoided and Dr Murray is certainly at the centre of the fault here.

I understand other fan's pain and frustration over what is going on - but I think we all have to remember how we felt as fans when MJ was on trail back in 05 and how much we all hated the witch hunt and death threats being levelled about.

I think we all have to take a breath and let the legal process go about things - by the looks of it there is enough evidence to warrant it going to trial (and the fact the defence isn't offering any argument at this stage makes it look like even they know it is going to trial).

Stay focused on the positive MJ brought to the world and don't get caught up in the wasted emotion of hate.

Militant said:

Swa said:

MJ's death was not intentional.

I'm in two minds about this, actually. I really, really, want to believe it wasn't intentional. But the more I hear, the more I realize we just can't rule it out. What doctor leaves their patient alone for that long after injecting such a massive amount of such a powerful substance? I know MEDICAL STUDENTS that know better than that.

Then you look at the extortionate amounts of money people have made since then. Whether it's Sony, AEG, hell, even the Estate. Let's not forget that the will that assigns Branca & McClain as executors is widely believed to be fake.

I am heavily questioning some of the Estate's decisions too. Aside from the whole business with the fake songs.

Have you heard all this business about Branca and McClain kicking Alejanda, Genevieve, Donte, Randy Jr, etc out of the Hayvenhurst house just because it legally belongs to the Estate? But they were living there when Michael was alive and he didn't have a problem with it. Michael didn't buy that property so that he could make the decisions about who gets to live there and who doesn't. The whole thing just seems shady to me. Alejandra is one thing, but why kick these kids out of their home? So half the house can be empty? How does it benefit them to do that? Michael would have NEVER co-signed such actions. Never.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories - but you can't deny that there are people that wanted MJ "taken out". He knew it himself. Like he said "you'll do anything for money".

None of us can say this was definitely the case. But, I absolutely believe that we shouldn't rule it out, either.

[Edited 1/7/11 18:13pm]

Militant said:

I know some fans don't like Lisa Marie, and I understand why, but I have to say that if Michael had someone in his life like her (not necessarily her, but a strong woman, that kind of personality) none of this shit would have happened. You know?

Being in a committed relationship is so grounding because when you have a partner that loves you, they don't put up with any bullshit and they protect you, even protecting you from yourself.

I was first signed to a major label when I was a teenager, and so I've seen my share of all sorts of fucked up shit in this industry, from the hedonistic lifestyles to the people who get trapped inside their own self created world just because they can afford to. My wife is pretty much the only person who keeps me grounded and motivates me to not do anything potentially self-destructive.

I know how much pressure I feel before I tour, and that's like, a month or two at most with crowds of about 5-10k. 50 sold out nights in a 25k arena when you haven't toured in 12 years would scare the shit out of ANYONE. No question. But Michael should never even have considered medication to deal with it. He needed a proper diet plan (none of these eating KFC and drinking soda every day bullshit like he was doing), a proper patterned sleep schedule, a proper workout regime with a personal trainer, and at the very most, NATURAL sleep aids like lavender scents and white noise machines.

Not a fucking incompetent doctor to pump him full of surgery-grade anaesthetics every night to knock him out. But Michael didn't have anybody that would tell him what he was doing was wrong. The bodyguards wouldn't dare. The children weren't old enough. The family weren't close enough to see what was going on. So all you have is sycophantic yes men who just want to keep their jobs and keep their boss happy.

The whole situation is fucked up and tragic on about a MILLION different levels. And the worst thing is, it could have been so different. Michael just needed ONE person who really cared, with a strong enough relationship to where he wouldn't just shut them out at the first minor disagreement.

I agree with you. They say behind every great man is a great woman (mostly likely rolling her eyes. lol..I kid). But yes, I believe if MJ had a strong woman whom truly he loved, then yes, more than likely this mess would've never happened. As much as I'm not fond of Lisa, I know she was good for him at the time. She cleaned him up and was supportive and continued to be supportive of him even after their divorce. So in that sense, I think that was classy of her.

But I don't think you made the proper room in considering Michael. Michael was the kinda man who got everything he wanted. He had a brilliant mind, thinking of things that no one has ever done before. He worked so hard to please critics and his fans, trying desperately to show the world he's not some one album wonder from the 80's. He also gave as much as he could to better humanity. He did all those things, and forgot about himself. That and he is not used to having people say "no" to him. And anyone who does will get ignored and he'll look for someone who will say "yes". Why you think he got Kenny Ortega to do TII? Because the man always says yes to his ideas. Michael never wanted arguement. He wanted his word to be the one that's law at the end of the day. He even says so in some of his conversations (can't remember if it's in the telephone convos with Glenda or the Rabbi Schmuley tapes). He said he wanted a woman "who didn't question him".

He even did the same thing to Lisa. Don't get me wrong, I love Michael and everything about him. But when Lisa said she didn't want to have children (considering she had other ones from her previous marriage), he simply went to Debbie, who was more than willing to be his babymama. And while I understand that they were separated when this happened, they were still technically married.

Personally...I think Michael was afraid of letting a woman into his life. His shyness is a definite factor, but also, I think he knew no woman would deal with his kind of lifestyle. They would try to change his life. They would realize his eating habits were unhealthy, his sleeping patterns were not normal, etc... That and his enormous wealth. It's hard to find a woman who'd love Michael Jackson the man, not Michael Jackson the pop star.

I personally believe Michael needed to see a therapist to deal with his sleep issues. I am NOT saying Michael is crazy or anything, but I think Michael suffered from depression several times throughout his life and never got the proper care for it. Depression is a mental disorder and it needs medication attention. I know because I suffered from it several times in my life. I lost my appetite, I lost my sleep (either couldn't sleep, or would wake up several times a night, or wake up too early in the morning), lost my energy, lost everything that made me, myself. But there is treatment for depression, not just medications, but actual hollistic treatments like you mentioned. He could've hired aromatherapists, massage therapists, the lot of them...to help calm him down enough to sleep. There were other alternatives...

I though it was unwise to hire Dr. Murray, a cardiologist no less, not even an anesthesiologist, to pump him full of a medication that's not safe to use outside a hospital setting. But I'd think for 100,00 a month, Murray would do a better job in taking care of Michael. Hell, at least hire a nurse or two to monitor him. In either case, I'd rather have Michael healthy and happy, than to be working so hard for a tour and then go home to be put under the IV. But Michael wanted to please his fans, show his children what he was famous for, and prove it to himself that he could still do it. I wish I could time travel back to help him, warn him about the future...but I don't know if he'd believe me.

All in all, if he really was truly in love with a strong woman who LOVED HIM and CARED for him, she might've been able to save him. But nothing is ever how you plan it...

kibbles said:

Swa said:

MJ's death was not intentional. It was a tragic accident that could/should have been avoided and Dr Murray is certainly at the centre of the fault here.

I understand other fan's pain and frustration over what is going on - but I think we all have to remember how we felt as fans when MJ was on trail back in 05 and how much we all hated the witch hunt and death threats being levelled about.

I think we all have to take a breath and let the legal process go about things - by the looks of it there is enough evidence to warrant it going to trial (and the fact the defence isn't offering any argument at this stage makes it look like even they know it is going to trial).

Stay focused on the positive MJ brought to the world and don't get caught up in the wasted emotion of hate.

i'm sorry, but reading the blow by blow accounts that have been coming out of the prelim, i believe it ultimately was intentional. initially, murray gave him the propofol, and although he wasn't paying attention to mj, he didn't think or intend for mj to go into distress. HOWEVER, once it was clear that mj was in distress, he *intentionally* waiting 20 minutes before he decided to have the security guard call 911. he *intentionally* lied to the emts upon their arrival, and the doctors as well. he *intended* to get back into the house to discard the evidence, but the security wouldn't let him. none of those acts are unintentional.

I get where you are coming from but I think the situation went like this.

Dr Murray had been putting MJ to "sleep" with propofol on and off for some time. It probably became the routine "last resort" for MJ to get some rest and as such sadly Dr Murray became lax in his care.

That morning he probably went about his business as he had done time and time before stepping out now and then and thinking nothing of it because nothing had gone wrong in the past. Then upon discovering MJ in distress/dead he panicked - plain and simple. "Oh $h!t - what's happened...." and then he probably frantically tried to revive MJ then call for help, then cover up the mess. Then he went into survival mode by not telling the emts what drugs he had administered etc.

All of these acts are negligent but I don't think he intentionally discovered MJ was dead and then thought "hey i'll just chill for 20 minutes then get some help". It's clear by his actions that once the scene was beyond his control he went about protecting his own ass.

But sadly by that stage all was too late. And it's the acts that lead to the death of Michael that ultimately Murray will be convicted on. His actions post MJ's death - the delayed 911 call, the withholding of information etc all are signs of his personality and his own guilt.

Michael needs our help, guys...we can't let this murderer get away...

A few ways you can make a difference...


1 -Sign the petition to change the charges to second degree murder.
http://www.petitiononline...ition.html


2 - Email or fax David B Walgren
District Attorney's office, Los Angeles
Case Number: SA073164
Case Title: People v Conrad Murray
Fax: 213-974-1484
webmail@da.lacounty.gov

Send him a letter explaining some of the evidence from this week and that the charges should be changed to second degree murder and his license should be revoked.


3 -SPREAD the links, please

We must raise our as one...WE WANT JUSTICE FOR MICHAEL JACKSON!!!

July 12, 1997- Wembley Stadium

As for LMP having kids with Mike, I can understand that Mike was real pissed off when he found out she didn´t wanna give them to him especially since he said that she promised him before they got married that that was the first thing they'd do after the wedding. We all know how having kids was important to him so I can understand why he felt so betrayed. Remember he was in his late 30's. It took him a long time to find someone who was willing to marry. I can imagine that he might have thought to himself "I might be 60 before I find another women that I'd be willing to marry and have kids with. Debbies' s willing to do it, I know her, I trust her, let´s go for it unless I wanna raise kids in my 60's and 70's." Obviously from what Lisa said, they were trying to work things out. It´s a shame it didn´t work out cause I also believe had he had a strong women who cared for him and that he´d love, he's still be here. I don´t wanna blame anyone for their failed marriage cause I am sure they both probably contributed to its end.

I still really don't know what to think of Murray and this case, but I certainly don't like the information that's coming out. I know that Mike might have been used to "Yes", but I also believed that he'd love his children too much to risk his life like that. It's just so sad and heartbreaking. I just hope the WHOLE truth comes out and that the people responsible get what they deserve.

My baby...

[Edited 1/8/11 2:31am]

And let me add one thing. When people say that it's still Mike's fault cause if Murray didn't do it, he'd find someone else who'd do it that doesn't excuse that person. Whoever was willing to say YES to this shall be punished.

[img:$uid]http://img412.i.../img:$uid]

silverchild said:

Whoa

That's the original Donkey Kong arcade game

You know, I know a lot of people blame MJ for this. We can try to look back at his life and try to pinpoint what was wrong with him, yet in the end, we can't be sure. In LMP's interview with Oprah, she made it clear that he tried to reach out to her for help and she shut him down. His family could or could not have tried to help him out and he shut them down. He may have been already set in his ways, but all in all, Michael Jackson was still a grown ass man and still has to be responsible for all of his actions & decisions.

That being said though, this doesn't change the problem here. Whether he was a drug addict or not, this does not absolve the doctor of any responsibility. No matter how much money was dangling in his face he was a doctor FIRST. He took the Hippocratic oath. I know that we are all human, but this is still a case of unnecessary negligence on his behalf and that is what should be on trial, not Michael Jackson. Dr. Conrad Murray did not have Michael Jackson put a gun to his head (as far as I know), he's still a grown ass man who needs to be responsible for his decisions. Bringing MJ's personal life into this just serves as a way to distract people and to bring sympathy towards the doctor. Yet, it does not make what happened any better or less appalling.

It would be different if MJ administered the drugs into himself, but he didn't. He relied on a doctor who relied on him. The truth of the matter is, and what I always suspected, was that Michael Jackson had longed died way before the ambulance came. I know that we are human and people make mistakes, but responsibility has to be taken. I just hope that there was no underlying motive for it though. That would be really tragic.

bboy - it's very possible I was at that show. I saw the HIStory tour at Wembley, but there were 3 dates and I don't remember which one it was. I'm gonna watch that footage right now! Thanks!

Militant said:

Swa said:

MJ's death was not intentional.

Have you heard all this business about Branca and McClain kicking Alejanda, Genevieve, Donte, Randy Jr, etc out of the Hayvenhurst house just because it legally belongs to the Estate? But they were living there when Michael was alive and he didn't have a problem with it. Michael didn't buy that property so that he could make the decisions about who gets to live there and who doesn't. The whole thing just seems shady to me. Alejandra is one thing, but why kick these kids out of their home? So half the house can be empty? How does it benefit them to do that? Michael would have NEVER co-signed such actions. Never.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories - but you can't deny that there are people that wanted MJ "taken out". He knew it himself. Like he said "you'll do anything for money".

I'm sure Katherine has a say in this as well. Yes, Michael didnt have a problem with them living in his house, however, he didn't anticipate his OWN kids living there either so the situation is different. For some reason, I thought Katherine wanted Alejandra out because of the negative influence of her kids. I think she tried to relocate them to the condo Michael owned and Alejandra refused.

[Edited 1/8/11 8:50am]

silverchild said:

Nice find!

Militant said:

bboy - it's very possible I was at that show. I saw the HIStory tour at Wembley, but there were 3 dates and I don't remember which one it was. I'm gonna watch that footage right now! Thanks!

Where did you sit? In the stands or on the floor?

Seeing all those people on the ground level always made me wonder....how did they use the bathroom?

I know Wembley Stadium has restrooms so the people with sets in the stands probably benefited but the people on the ground level had it the worse

Michael in Sydney, Australia in 1996

bboy87 said:

Militant said:

bboy - it's very possible I was at that show. I saw the HIStory tour at Wembley, but there were 3 dates and I don't remember which one it was. I'm gonna watch that footage right now! Thanks!

Where did you sit? In the stands or on the floor?

Seeing all those people on the ground level always made me wonder....how did they use the bathroom?

I know Wembley Stadium has restrooms so the people with sets in the stands probably benefited but the people on the ground level had it the worse

It brings back memories of the cocnert in Amsterdam.

Honestly. when I went to the concert I didn't even go to the restroom at all too excited. (I was only like 12) Now that I look back, it was a great night and I'm happy I did get to see two of my musical heroes in concert in my lifetime (Stevie and Michael) all that's left is Prince. I wanna see him too.