rapper said:

Where is the rythm, where is the blues? If she is being placed in the same catagory as Sam Cooke and Gladys Knight, the world is coming to an end.

I'm guessing in the pussy poppin'...

I don't particularly like her music, but I don't think it's her fault. It's the media's. They're always starved for a "mega talent" or an innovative artist, so when an artist that fits any one of those molds comes along, they'll milk it for all it's worth...that's why Gaga is getting so much attention now, even though a lot of her gimmick has been done before. She's "different."

Record labels (and the artists themselves) have a part in it as well. They see the formulas that Beyonce and Gaga use have worked pretty darn well for them, and that's why we're seeing this influx of "wackadoo", booty shakin' female artists with that same electro-pop beat...even Beyonce took a bit of a lesson from Gaga once she saw how popular her cracked out, neo-80's pop image/music worked.

[Edited 12/27/10 8:42am]

neoretro7 said:

I have noticed this past decade that there has not been no strong R&B woman in the charts lately who has never really raised any standards lately for R&B music

A part of me thinks that Beyonce's popularity is partially to blame because ever since Beyonce became this huge star every upcoming R&B diva wants to be like her and follow her formula.

With the exception of Alicia Keys who made it big before Beyonce went solo and Rihanna who eventually saved her career by reinventing herself no other R&B diva has really had the chance to become stars

I remember in pre Beyonce era there was a good array of R&B ladies like the late Aaliyah, Monica, Tweet, Amerie, Floetry, Indie Arie, Vivian Green, Heather Headely, and the more popular one Ashanti who showed great promise and great direction. Every woman was different and she had her own style but when Beyonce came along in 2003 and started a whole craze of songs i have noticed that almost every woman tried to follow her and eventually that was what happened with Amerie with this One Thing which screams Beyonce formula.

I am not trying to villianize Beyonce but a part me thinks that if Beyone had not become a huge star would we see a more colorful array of R&B female stars i pay attention to the Grammys, BET, NAACP,Soul Train Awards and it is very frustrating seeing Beyonce win every award every year whereas other women have better music substance and they hardly get credit for it.

But as we know 1 thing by Amerie was her formula first it just got held up because they were both on the same label, 1 thing was ready a year prior to it even being issued, it was a white-label vinyl that was passed to dj's, that sound was her's along with input from Rich Harrison, long before Beyonce did her version of it.

But i do agree that Beyonce's status has limited the view of everyone, whether its white or black the focus is just on her nonstop, media wise and music wise

the whole beyonce vs Keri hilson thing.. reminds of the britney vs christina A.

its like only one can be the top dog, while the other one has to go the slutty route and still gets hate....

i don't think beyonce is that great for her to ruin the rnb scene... its just rnb isn't popular anymore.. BECAUSE the rnb that was being made is rhythm-less and/or hip hop.....

I remember in pre Beyonce era there was a good array of R&B ladies like the late Aaliyah, Monica, Tweet, Amerie, Floetry, Indie Arie, Vivian Green, Heather Headely

Aaliyah, yes.

The others have no mainstream appeal/image, Tweet was a one hit wonder and Amerie's big break was post Beyonce.

If they wanted the success she's had, they have to be prolific. Release albums regularly, work with popular producers, do big (world) tours, flashy music videos etc

The long breaks between albums just don't cut it anymore and if your singles aren't catchy in some way, well, good luck.

Beyonce is a pop star anyway, and has been since she left DC behind.

It's silly to blame one entertainer for everyone's bad luck. Did MJ ruin the R&B/Pop scene for men back in the day?

To me it's more about artist not understanding what their audiences want these days or not getting out there enough. What Bey doesmight make people sick of her, but she's still the more famous one with her music getting heard at the end of the day. It depends what those women want as artists. India.Arie doesn't strike me as the type to want to compete with Beyonce or even interested in that whole scene. Rihanna obviously was up for it, and will probably exceed Bey if she keeps going.

MyNameIsPiper said:

rapper said:

Where is the rythm, where is the blues? If she is being placed in the same catagory as Sam Cooke and Gladys Knight, the world is coming to an end.

I'm guessing in the pussy poppin'...

TonyVanDam said:

The r&b scene was ruined BEFORE Beyonce & Destiny's Child.

All blame goes to producer Sean Combs (via using Mary J. Blige as his muse at the time) for inventing hip-hop soul, which was hip-hop tracks at the downtempo of 95 BPM (a tactic Sean copied from Dr.Dre!) and singing vocals.

Because of THIS^, r&b/soul was "killed" and replace with hip-hop/r&b.

The End.

Well, R&B and Hip Hop merged before that. What killed R&B was Funk and Disco. And people need to understand this: Disco and Funk birthed Hip Hop.

Hip Hop Soul is just a progression of what happened after those things took place. "Real R&B" hasn't been done since the 70s.

trueiopian said:

I swear this site is a music snob haven.

Are you seriously blaming Beyonce because all these other female R&B artists are lazy as hell? No. She's not to blame. No one's stopping other female R&B artists from doing what they want to do. MJB is 20 years deep into her career and still pulling in decent numbers. It can happen for the other females if they create their brand, sound and image. For some reason R&B artists today think they can hop on the scene with a hypersexualized single or build their whole image from other R&B superstars and call it a day. It doesn't work that way.

*Applause* This is the stuff, I speak of over and over again. If anything, Bey has a different lane than them(sub-genre, really...compared to the ones that are usually named as "real artists" in here) because she's Pop first and then R&B second. The issue is not her, the issue is labels seeing how successful Bey is, signing artists to be either "Mini Bey's" or "Anti-Bey's" rather than finding artists that they can build around so that they can have a different lane. Artists have to be educated enough to know what they are getting into and if they still want to work at it, know what their lane is and work it whether it gets them the kind of fame that Beyoncé has or not.

Not to mention, it's so formulaic. How many times do we have to see artists/entertainers, especially if they are in Bey's lane, have one, two, maybe 3 club bangers as singles in order to sell the album? I mean, really?

Graycap23 said:

I don't consider Beyonce as an R&B act. All of her songs are pop & dance.

No, they are not.

HuMpThAnG said:

Really no such thing as R & B these days...

Male or female

I just love intelligent posts like these.

Graycap23 said:

PurpleDiamond2009 said:

I dont understand why people on here are so quick to bash todays music stars. There not that bad.

U are right...............they are WORSE.

TonyVanDam said:

PurpleDiamond2009 said:

I dont understand why people on here are so quick to bash todays music stars. There not that bad.

1. Don't get it twisted. Beyonce can still sing and is an excellent talent. But her choices of producers are not always great.

2. No matter how you justify it, Ke$ha is trash, Rhianna is a lost cause, and Nicki Minaj is a tool used for the dehumanization of black women.

THAT'S^ not bashing. THAT'S speaking the truth.

Now that's a fair criticism. If there is one thing that I want to see next album era from her, I would love her production of her songs to consistently match her vocal arrangement quality. Whoever she works with. B'day is her best work IMO and even that album could have been better if....the production was more consistent in quality. Even on that album, Bey's Vocal Arrangements>>>Production.

lastdecember said:

alphastreet said:

I love Beyonce a lot, and I really love her voice, but the R&B singers around her age that were popular before her had better songs though they did not have the overall package she does. Brandy and Monica have amazing songs, melodies and voices, but they don't really write songs or dance or have stage presence. Aaliyah had innovative r&b/hip hop songs, great dancing, charisma onstage and a personality, but she wasn't a powerhouse vocalist though still sweet. Mya has excellent dancing skills and good control of her voice though it's nasally. Ashanti wrote good songs that people could relate to, but her voice was nothing special and not the best though she had ok moments too at times. Tweet had innovative beats and an interesting voice but maybe mainstream didn't like that. Alicia Keys played piano though I personally think they insisted she do that to seperate herself from other r&b females though she does sing and sound like them and is a raw talent, I don't think she should dance though. I can't remember if Amerie writes her own songs but she has edge and is a good dancer with a decent voice, so I understand why many on this board are bitter about Beyonce.

In conclusion, Beyonce is good at all of the things I mentioned. You may not be a fan of her or you may not like the way she sings or dances, but no one can she can't sing for shit or that she's not talented. Saying she stole from someone doesn't count either, everyone borrows from somebody before them or from the same time as them. And people will copy the most popular act at the time or a global megastar or legend, cause those were concepts that sold. People are copying Beyonce now, but they also copied Boyz II Men in the 90's with all those r&b quartet groups, and the Beatles were copied too, as were the j5, and so on. She's combined her influences and presents them well. I wouldn't call her the best performer in the world, but of today's generation, I do believe she's the best one, though for me, it will be michael and janet forever.

all good points on all the ladies mentioned, i think the issue is mainly that the focus is just on one, but thats not Beyonces fault and to me it has nothing to do with having better music than the others, its just more direct connecting with mainstream. To me honestly i see more creativity from the rb females than the males, i see nothing that is seperating the males, to me Trey Songz and Usher and Jamie Foxx etc are all singing the same way, the same song and the same theme. The females have similar issues granted, i mean to me Keri Hilson's new cd is the same as Ciara's, same beats same production. but other females like Amerie or Teedra Moses or Teairra Mari are a little bit more edgy, or have more indentity, and yes Ameriie writes her own, produces and though with Def Jam (at the moment) the label she operates on is her own.

This is the best post of the thread. This is the problem with the industry. When the industry is at it's optimal, a male is usually the premier black entertainer in it. If a black male entertainer were to take the world by storm, watch album and single sales go through the roof because women are who buy CDs before men will, especially in R&B. There are no male entertainers, I thought Usher was going to be the one, that is doing this.

TonyVanDam said:

Harlepolis said:

2001-2002 showed a bit of promise toward young R&B sirens; Tweet, Syleena Johnson, Blu Cantrell, Lina, Sunshine Anderson, Truth Hurts, Jaguar Wright and many others to mention.

I'm saddened that all of those ladies fell into obscurity simply because they couldn't fit any major label's "quota" on how should they look and most importantly how much they should sell.

I love ALL of those ladies, esp Tweet.

It's interesting that you mention 2001-02, because Britney & Christina were still getting plenty of attention from pop culture at the time with the Britney AND Dirrty album respectfully. It was also within that date line that Mariah had that infamous nervous breakdown during the early part of his post-Sony Music Entertainment era of her career. Good grief, Jennifer Lopez had a music career!

I dare to say that 2001-02 were some harsh time for new black female artists trying to get a big break through all of THIS^ mess.

But around that time, there was Destiny's Child being Billboard Artist of the year in 2000 and 2001. That's when Urban Top 40 began to become the pre-dominant Pop Sound. At least in the US. I feel that was a good time for black female artists then. You don't have Ciaras, Rihannas, and etc without this.

The problem was instead of being more creative with them, labels said..."let's make them look very similar in order to market them to the demographic where the entertainers who were uber successful had their lock on". And then they saturated the market with too many of them.

Not every entertainer is marketable but labels were looking at the money and they didn't make wise decisions and look at how the industry now. And labels can't stay with the same formula either with how they promote their artists. Then lastly, entertainers can't continue to have one or two club bangers(because it will chart) to promote the album. Have a music theory(sound) and promote that. If an artist is suppose to be ballad heavy, then bring that out as a single. If they are mid-tempo heavy, bring out that sound.

lastdecember said:

neoretro7 said:

I have noticed this past decade that there has not been no strong R&B woman in the charts lately who has never really raised any standards lately for R&B music

A part of me thinks that Beyonce's popularity is partially to blame because ever since Beyonce became this huge star every upcoming R&B diva wants to be like her and follow her formula.

With the exception of Alicia Keys who made it big before Beyonce went solo and Rihanna who eventually saved her career by reinventing herself no other R&B diva has really had the chance to become stars

I remember in pre Beyonce era there was a good array of R&B ladies like the late Aaliyah, Monica, Tweet, Amerie, Floetry, Indie Arie, Vivian Green, Heather Headely, and the more popular one Ashanti who showed great promise and great direction. Every woman was different and she had her own style but when Beyonce came along in 2003 and started a whole craze of songs i have noticed that almost every woman tried to follow her and eventually that was what happened with Amerie with this One Thing which screams Beyonce formula.

I am not trying to villianize Beyonce but a part me thinks that if Beyone had not become a huge star would we see a more colorful array of R&B female stars i pay attention to the Grammys, BET, NAACP,Soul Train Awards and it is very frustrating seeing Beyonce win every award every year whereas other women have better music substance and they hardly get credit for it.

But as we know 1 thing by Amerie was her formula first it just got held up because they were both on the same label, 1 thing was ready a year prior to it even being issued, it was a white-label vinyl that was passed to dj's, that sound was her's along with input from Rich Harrison, long before Beyonce did her version of it.

But i do agree that Beyonce's status has limited the view of everyone, whether its white or black the focus is just on her nonstop, media wise and music wise

No. What happened is this, Amerie's first album was produced and written solely by Rich Harrison. It's a pre-dominantly ballad heavy album. That's back in 2002, meanwhile...Bey was already going with a funky uptempo sound. Funky yet commercial. Here is a nice quote from DC's Book Soul Survivor, the same year as Amerie's debut(In fact, it came out before Amerie's album):

From Soul Survivors, pg. 257:

Coincidentally, "Shining Star", a song that I have always loved, is going to be in Austin Powers 3. I want to bring that same funky type of sound back for my solo album. I want to do a 2002 updated version of that live instrumentation. Back then people had a more open mind. They liked to hear everything from horns to full-on orchestras. And jazz was so popular---it influenced so many other types of music. Black people, white people, all different races, were grooving to the same beat. Music was mixed up in the best possible way. Those songs had heart as well as soul---they're timeless. I think people will forever be listening to the music from back in the seventies. It sounds more progressive than outdated. That's the kind of praise I hope to get for my solo album.

Work It Out(produced by the Neptunes, not Rich Harrison) is the song that preceeds what she did with Crazy In Love and then you have Amerie's next album with 1 Thing as the single introducing her going with the funk/go-go sound. And the only reason why the album that we all know now as DIL came out in 2003, rather than 2002 is because Sony pushed it back in order to let Kelly get her shine after she and Nelly did Dilemma(it wasn't supposed to be on Kelly's album but it ended up being on it to maximize her sales). DC was planning to go solo back in 2000 so this sound for Bey was planned even before Amerie was ever thought of and the masses ever heard of Rich Harrison.

Not to mention, Bey's timbre and vocal stylings fit funk and uptempo songs better too. Amerie has a nice voice, but not quite fitting for what she sings. Her first album was actually her best. Believe it or not.

[Edited 1/3/11 15:17pm]

I think it's mainly the disease of a lack of originality on the part of the ladies of R&B and artists in general. Beyonce rose to stardom because she invented her own formula. Instead of trying to copy her formula, up and coming artists should have tried to create a new path by filling what they felt was a void in their particular field. there's more than 1 way to do something, and I think artists want to follow a set formula, which leads to a quick rise and demise. now to be clear, this is not beyonce's fault. she can't be blamed for what others do. it is the responsibility of these aspiring artists to make a way for themselves that they feel will last. musically nowadays, artists are just to lazy or unoriginal or unequipped to step up to the challenge of being a successful name in the business.

I dont blame Beyonce's popularity for the demise of women in r&b. Its all about having the right team behind you and also good timing. They are plenty of black singers yes they dont get the same time of shine doesnt mean they are less talented. I hate to say this but Beyonce just happen to have the right package that made her more accessible to a mainstream audience. At the end of the day its up to us to support our singers which unfornuately we dont do. Beyonce maybe popular with white audiences now but Britney Spears I think is still number #1. Lady Gaga #2 then Beyonce. As someone else commented there's only room for one black pop star at a time.

Harlepolis said:

lastdecember said:

I mean to me someone like Mariah was more RB than Whitney ever was, but ask Gladys Knight who back in the 90's said Mariah didnt deserve to win in the black/rb categories.

Anita Baker made a similar statement as well.

See, this is why I don't like to get in the middle of these "labeling" mind games. Confusing, generate alot of petty useless talk and robs the hell out of the fun of it.

I remember Anita Baker making that statement. It really disturbed me when I read that. Just because Mariah didn't look like Whitney Houston didn't mean she wasn't black. And although I loved both ladies at the height of their careers, from the very beginning, I always felt Mimi was more R&B than most of Nippy's earlier stuff. Mimi never got "booed" at the Soul Train Awards.

As far as Gladys, I didn't know she made that statement about Mariah but I do recall her making that sort of statement when George Michael won in the R&B field at the American Music Awards, which also angered me because no one ever said Micheal Jackson shouldn't have won any Pop/Rock awards because he was black.

1sotrue said:

I dont blame Beyonce's popularity for the demise of women in r&b. Its all about having the right team behind you and also good timing. They are plenty of black singers yes they dont get the same time of shine doesnt mean they are less talented. I hate to say this but Beyonce just happen to have the right package that made her more accessible to a mainstream audience. At the end of the day its up to us to support our singers which unfornuately we dont do. Beyonce maybe popular with white audiences now but Britney Spears I think is still number #1. Lady Gaga #2 then Beyonce. As someone else commented there's only room for one black pop star at a time.

You hit the nail on the head! You don't have to be able to sing a lick (i.e., Rhianna & Ciara), but if you have the right management team and your label is pouring $$$ into you, you are going to become a superstar.

kitbradley said:

Harlepolis said:

Anita Baker made a similar statement as well.

See, this is why I don't like to get in the middle of these "labeling" mind games. Confusing, generate alot of petty useless talk and robs the hell out of the fun of it.

I remember Anita Baker making that statement. It really disturbed me when I read that. Just because Mariah didn't look like Whitney Houston didn't mean she wasn't black. And although I loved both ladies at the height of their careers, from the very beginning, I always felt Mimi was more R&B than most of Nippy's earlier stuff. Mimi never got "booed" at the Soul Train Awards.

As far as Gladys, I didn't know she made that statement about Mariah but I do recall her making that sort of statement when George Michael won in the R&B field at the American Music Awards, which also angered me because no one ever said Micheal Jackson shouldn't have won any Pop/Rock awards because he was black.

Nippy came from a showbiz family; Dee Dee, Dionne and her mom. Alot of her peers gave her some slack because of it, I assume. IDK.

Its not the only black performers who gave Mimi grief thinking she was white. Sandra Bernhard made some EXTREME vile remarks against Mimi too. Part of me thinks it was out of the loyalty to Madonna(who also detests Mimi) but then again, Sandra talked big shit about everybody,,,,,I sill like her though.

Graycap23 said:

I don't consider Beyonce as an R&B act. All of her songs are pop & dance.

R&B died in 2004

PoppyBros said:

Graycap23 said:

I don't consider Beyonce as an R&B act. All of her songs are pop & dance.

R&B died in 2004

Longer than that my friend

I'm pretty impressd with her all-female "Suga Mama" tour band

• Bibi McGill (Musical Director, Guitar)
• Divinity Walker Roxx (Musical Director, Bass)
• Rie Tsuji (Co-Assistant Musical Director, Keyboards)
• Brittani Washington (Keyboards)
• Marcie Chapa (Percussion)
• Kim Thompson (Lead Drums)
• Nikki Glaspie (Drums)
• Tia Fuller (Lead Alto Saxophone)
• Crystal Torres (Trumpet)
• Katty Rodriguez-Harrold (Tenor Saxophone)

Tia Fuller and Kim Thompson were already established as staright-ahead jazz musicians and Divinity Roxx is a talented bassist who played in Victor Wooten's troupe. I'm interested enough to track the other bandmembers, so props to Bey for having some vision.

musicjunky318 said:

BklynBabe said:

Arnotts said: I think people don't really think of Rihanna as Black because she comes from an Island and has green eyes.... many of my family is from Barbados and have blue, gray, and green eyes. [Edited 12/26/10 4:54am]

That was the dumbest thing I've read all day. Thank you for the chuckle.

Dumbest thing for me as well...varying eye colour in black folk...whoop de doo...(yawn)

Beyonce has no control over her popularity...the public do.

.