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PrintableAaronUnlimited said: lots of good points.
Thanks for being one fo the few to actually offer up some counter points or additional things to consider. "That...magic, the start of something revolutionary-the Minneapolis Sound, we should cherish it and not punish prince for not being able to replicate it."-Dreamshaman32 | |
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NuPwrSoul said: AaronUnlimited said: lots of good points.
Thanks for being one fo the few to actually offer up some counter points or additional things to consider.  thanks!  [This message was edited Tue Feb 4 19:14:15 PST 2003 by AaronUnlimited] | |
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Dap and  to freaky | |
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NuPwrSoul said: CrozzaUK said: And not to get into the semantics of it, but the whole point of different cultures living as one is that we feed off each other. This is the new fucking millenium, and we sit here bickering about how Madonna stole this, Madonna plundered that, when in reality very little can be considered mutually exclusive to any one race or culture anymore.
Hence my first post on this thread (before it got crazy) that there is a fine line between appropriation and appreciation. I agree that in the age of globalism, it is very difficult if not impossible to claim proprietary rights on any form of cultural expression. Still most artists create with whatever cultural materials are available to them at the moment. To act like these materials are not frought with other meanings or come from other places and have been historically used in certain ways is extraordinarily naive in my opinion. On the level of the art itself, everything seems fair game as long as one is conscious of these things and is true/authentic to the aesthetic values. So that if you're gonna play jazz you better be studied in that to be taken seriously. If you're gonna do opera you better hone your chops, etc. There are some things however which don't transfer easily from one culture to the next so easily. Madonna's use of sacred Hindu chanting in a non-sacred context is problematic because it radically alters its meaning and risks losing its sacred quality. That's not adding to the richness of culture. That's taking it away. Like anything else, when money is brought into the picture...these issues take on newer significance and it helps to quantify in a neutering way what others would dismiss as subjective turf battles over protecting this or that culture. As an example, this couldn't be more evident in hip hop's use of sampling. At first many post-modernists argued that sampling was a kind of sonic collage, that it was homage to the greats (James Brown, George Clinton, etc.)... that that produced a new creation that integrated disparate sounds, breathing new life and new meaning into an old track. That may be true, but not giving songwriting credit or songwriting royalties put a different spin... it seemed like plundering and disrespect of what came before. It seemed more like appropriation rather than appreciation. Usually what people do with their money or their politics will help make clear the line between the two. I think hooks's article raises important questions about the materials that people in this case Madonna uses for her artistic creation. The end product may be something entirely different and new to many who find it celebrating unity and multicultural life. But it's like a sample on a hip hop song--for those who have heard the original track from whence the sample came--the echoes can still be heard in the new sound. ECHOES OF AN EDIT. [This message was edited Tue Feb 4 16:32:13 PST 2003 by NuPwrSoul] i agree with you absolutely, I just felt that the overtones of Ms Hooks arguments took too much for granted..."madonna is X because she does Y". Madonna's famed for incorporating what could be considered underground traints into her music and making them more mainstream. True sometimes she maybe a little insensitive to the origins of these, particularly when she is looking for headlines, but i feel that the kind of language Ms Hooks used took this "sampling" a little too seriously. It is harmless really. | |
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CrozzaUK said: Madonna's famed for incorporating what could be considered underground traints into her music and making them more mainstream. True sometimes she maybe a little insensitive to the origins of these, particularly when she is looking for headlines, but i feel that the kind of language Ms Hooks used took this "sampling" a little too seriously. It is harmless really.
I don't know if I would say it's altogether totally harmless. I mean when you have the history of black musical creations being recontextualized by white performers and then those white performers being able to enjoy much more success (in terms of notoriety, fame, money, credit, etc.) than the black originators, there is enough reason to be concerned. So Paul Whiteman gets crowned the king of swing in the '20s, and Count Basie is overlooked. Benny Goodman becomes viewed as the king of jazz in the '30s while Duke Ellington is not regarded as highly, Elvis declared the king of rock n roll and Chuck Berry is who?, and Eric Clapton gets the high brow approval for blues guitarist while BB King does not. Now these performers--Whiteman, Goodman, Presley, and Clapton--may themselves have had a great degree of respect for the origins of their style but the machine that marketed and promoted them and the audience that consumed them apparently were not as appreciative. It's only recent that this has begun to change, and primarily as the result of black folks and concerned others making a concerted and vigilant attempt to make known the contributions of black artists. I didn't get that hooks was declaring Madonna a racist in so much as she seemed more interested in exploring the phenomena at play... some of the same phenomena at play in the history of American popular music. EDIT AT PLAY. [This message was edited Wed Feb 5 14:56:51 PST 2003 by NuPwrSoul] "That...magic, the start of something revolutionary-the Minneapolis Sound, we should cherish it and not punish prince for not being able to replicate it."-Dreamshaman32 | |
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NuPwrSoul said: I don't know if I would say it's altogether totally harmless. I mean when you have the history of black musical creations being recontextualized by white performers and then those white performers being able to enjoy much more success (in terms of notoriety, fame, money, credit, etc.) than the black originators, there is enough reason to be concerned. would you criticize Prince or Jimi Hendrix or Living Colour for doing the same thing with "white" (i.e., guitar-driven rock) music? | |
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AaronUnlimited said: NuPwrSoul said: I don't know if I would say it's altogether totally harmless. I mean when you have the history of black musical creations being recontextualized by white performers and then those white performers being able to enjoy much more success (in terms of notoriety, fame, money, credit, etc.) than the black originators, there is enough reason to be concerned. would you criticize Prince or Jimi Hendrix or Living Colour for doing the same thing with "white" (i.e., guitar-driven rock) music? I doubt he would because that's kind of just a reclaiming of ones own. Now if its that speed metal shit then... "Climb in my fur." | |
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rdhull said: AaronUnlimited said: NuPwrSoul said: I don't know if I would say it's altogether totally harmless. I mean when you have the history of black musical creations being recontextualized by white performers and then those white performers being able to enjoy much more success (in terms of notoriety, fame, money, credit, etc.) than the black originators, there is enough reason to be concerned. would you criticize Prince or Jimi Hendrix or Living Colour for doing the same thing with "white" (i.e., guitar-driven rock) music? I doubt he would because that's kind of just a reclaiming of ones own. Now if its that speed metal shit then... well the more we argue "this is ours, and that's yours, and don't you forget it" the more we go around and around in circles. there's not going to be any harmony unless people stop resisting the marriage of the two cultures and don't stop getting bent out of shape about who stole/ assimilated/pimped what from who. No white people got pissed off at Whitney Houston for stealing our bland, soulless, adult contemporary elevator music in the 80's | |
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Guitar driven rock music was pioneered by Chuck Berry, who is black. | |
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I only read the article once, and that was in this thread. Had never heard of it, nor seen it before. But my main impression wasn't that Hooks was hung up on the she stole this music from us type of mentality as it was how Madonna emulated those Black artists who paved the way for her. In some aspects. And secondly, though not a lesser point, that she was put off by how Madonna sometimes subtley treated those gays and Blacks who worked for her.
And of course the images she puts to the fore when it comes to that Like A Prayer video. [This message was edited Wed Feb 5 17:44:45 PST 2003 by Supernova] This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes. | |
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Madonna ain't do nothing wrong period.Bell Hooks is just a Hater Period.I wonder what Bell Hooks would say about Eminem?? or Tiger Woods Dominating Golf??you see what you lead yourself up to with making blanked statements on calling someone a Racist without merit?? mistermaxxx | |
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AaronUnlimited said: rdhull said: AaronUnlimited said: NuPwrSoul said: I don't know if I would say it's altogether totally harmless. I mean when you have the history of black musical creations being recontextualized by white performers and then those white performers being able to enjoy much more success (in terms of notoriety, fame, money, credit, etc.) than the black originators, there is enough reason to be concerned. would you criticize Prince or Jimi Hendrix or Living Colour for doing the same thing with "white" (i.e., guitar-driven rock) music? I doubt he would because that's kind of just a reclaiming of ones own. Now if its that speed metal shit then... well the more we argue "this is ours, and that's yours, and don't you forget it" the more we go around and around in circles. there's not going to be any harmony unless people stop resisting the marriage of the two cultures and don't stop getting bent out of shape about who stole/ assimilated/pimped what from who. No white people got pissed off at Whitney Houston for stealing our bland, soulless, adult contemporary elevator music in the 80's I only brought it up as part of a correction etc..you brought that stuff up first. . [This message was edited Wed Feb 5 19:21:00 PST 2003 by rdhull] "Climb in my fur." | |
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mistermaxxx said: Madonna ain't do nothing wrong period.Bell Hooks is just a Hater Period.I wonder what Bell Hooks would say about Eminem?? or Tiger Woods Dominating Golf??you see what you lead yourself up to with making blanked statements on calling someone a Racist without merit??
We know we know..dont like Madonna=Hater..Will you give it a rest already!? Let someone else talk. "Climb in my fur." | |
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rdhull said: mistermaxxx said: Madonna ain't do nothing wrong period.Bell Hooks is just a Hater Period.I wonder what Bell Hooks would say about Eminem?? or Tiger Woods Dominating Golf??you see what you lead yourself up to with making blanked statements on calling someone a Racist without merit??
We know we know..dont like Madonna=Hater..Will you give it a rest already!? Let someone else talk. mistermaxxx | |
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mistermaxxx said: rdhull said: mistermaxxx said: Madonna ain't do nothing wrong period.Bell Hooks is just a Hater Period.I wonder what Bell Hooks would say about Eminem?? or Tiger Woods Dominating Golf??you see what you lead yourself up to with making blanked statements on calling someone a Racist without merit??
We know we know..dont like Madonna=Hater..Will you give it a rest already!? Let someone else talk. you are comedy..btw I love Madonna so quit trippin... you want a cookie or something? You're as "color struck" as "hater" bell hooks as you would say. "Climb in my fur." | |
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rdhull said: mistermaxxx said: rdhull said: mistermaxxx said: Madonna ain't do nothing wrong period.Bell Hooks is just a Hater Period.I wonder what Bell Hooks would say about Eminem?? or Tiger Woods Dominating Golf??you see what you lead yourself up to with making blanked statements on calling someone a Racist without merit??
We know we know..dont like Madonna=Hater..Will you give it a rest already!? Let someone else talk. you are comedy..btw I love Madonna so quit trippin... you want a cookie or something? You're as "color struck" as "hater" bell hooks as you would say. mistermaxxx | |
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AaronUnlimited said: rdhull said: AaronUnlimited said: NuPwrSoul said: I don't know if I would say it's altogether totally harmless. I mean when you have the history of black musical creations being recontextualized by white performers and then those white performers being able to enjoy much more success (in terms of notoriety, fame, money, credit, etc.) than the black originators, there is enough reason to be concerned. would you criticize Prince or Jimi Hendrix or Living Colour for doing the same thing with "white" (i.e., guitar-driven rock) music? I doubt he would because that's kind of just a reclaiming of ones own. Now if its that speed metal shit then... well the more we argue "this is ours, and that's yours, and don't you forget it" the more we go around and around in circles. there's not going to be any harmony unless people stop resisting the marriage of the two cultures and don't stop getting bent out of shape about who stole/ assimilated/pimped what from who. It's all good as long as the "marriage" is based on fairplay, and people get the credit where credit is due, in terms of compensation, fame, notoriety, praise, acknowledgment, critical approval, etc. Problem is, for a long time, it has not been a marriage but a relationship between a pimp and his prostitute. Like I said in a previous post on this thread, things are changing--but they don't change on their own. People must be vigilant in making sure that they do. No white people got pissed off at Whitney Houston for stealing our bland, soulless, adult contemporary elevator music in the 80's
PIMPIN THE EDIT. [This message was edited Wed Feb 5 21:38:06 PST 2003 by NuPwrSoul] "That...magic, the start of something revolutionary-the Minneapolis Sound, we should cherish it and not punish prince for not being able to replicate it."-Dreamshaman32 | |
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rdhull said: AaronUnlimited said: would you criticize Prince or Jimi Hendrix or Living Colour for doing the same thing with "white" (i.e., guitar-driven rock) music? I doubt he would because that's kind of just a reclaiming of ones own. Now if its that speed metal shit then... Pretty much. Plus I don't ever recall seeing or hearing any example where a "white" person's contribution to popular culture has ever been in question or ignored in favor of proclaiming a "black" artist the king of anything, including Prince. "That...magic, the start of something revolutionary-the Minneapolis Sound, we should cherish it and not punish prince for not being able to replicate it."-Dreamshaman32 | |
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rdhull said: AaronUnlimited said: rdhull said: AaronUnlimited said: NuPwrSoul said: I don't know if I would say it's altogether totally harmless. I mean when you have the history of black musical creations being recontextualized by white performers and then those white performers being able to enjoy much more success (in terms of notoriety, fame, money, credit, etc.) than the black originators, there is enough reason to be concerned. would you criticize Prince or Jimi Hendrix or Living Colour for doing the same thing with "white" (i.e., guitar-driven rock) music? I doubt he would because that's kind of just a reclaiming of ones own. Now if its that speed metal shit then... well the more we argue "this is ours, and that's yours, and don't you forget it" the more we go around and around in circles. there's not going to be any harmony unless people stop resisting the marriage of the two cultures and don't stop getting bent out of shape about who stole/ assimilated/pimped what from who. No white people got pissed off at Whitney Houston for stealing our bland, soulless, adult contemporary elevator music in the 80's I only brought it up as part of a correction etc..you brought that stuff up first. No I didn't. Bell Hooks did 11 years ago. | |
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AaronUnlimited said: rdhull said: AaronUnlimited said: rdhull said: AaronUnlimited said: NuPwrSoul said: I don't know if I would say it's altogether totally harmless. I mean when you have the history of black musical creations being recontextualized by white performers and then those white performers being able to enjoy much more success (in terms of notoriety, fame, money, credit, etc.) than the black originators, there is enough reason to be concerned. would you criticize Prince or Jimi Hendrix or Living Colour for doing the same thing with "white" (i.e., guitar-driven rock) music? I doubt he would because that's kind of just a reclaiming of ones own. Now if its that speed metal shit then... well the more we argue "this is ours, and that's yours, and don't you forget it" the more we go around and around in circles. there's not going to be any harmony unless people stop resisting the marriage of the two cultures and don't stop getting bent out of shape about who stole/ assimilated/pimped what from who. No white people got pissed off at Whitney Houston for stealing our bland, soulless, adult contemporary elevator music in the 80's I only brought it up as part of a correction etc..you brought that stuff up first. No I didn't. Bell Hooks did 11 years ago.gotcha "Climb in my fur." | |
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If anyone is interested, the essay was originally in bell's book "Black Looks: Race & Representation". Here are the chapters:
Loving Blackness as Political Resistance Eating the Other: Desire & Resistance Revolutionary Black Women: Making Ourselves Subject Selling Hot Pussy: Representations of Black Female Sexuality in the Cultural Marketplace A Feminist Challenge: Must We Call Every Woman Sister? Reconstructing Black Masculinity The Oppositional Gaze: Black Female Spectators Micheaux's Films: Celebrating Blackness Is Paris Burning? Madonna: Plantation Mistress or Soul Sister? Representations of Whiteness (in the Black Imagination) Revolutionary "Renegades": Native Americans, African Americans & Black Indians Titles alone probably don't help, just trying to give an idea of the flavor of the book as a whole since the Maddy article seems "out of context" or plucked from nowhere...    I never met you, but I LOVE you & I will forever!! Thank you for being YOU - my little Princey, the best to EVER do it | |
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CalhounSq said: If anyone is interested, the essay was originally in bell's book "Black Looks: Race & Representation". Here are the chapters:
Loving Blackness as Political Resistance Eating the Other: Desire & Resistance Revolutionary Black Women: Making Ourselves Subject Selling Hot Pussy: Representations of Black Female Sexuality in the Cultural Marketplace A Feminist Challenge: Must We Call Every Woman Sister? Reconstructing Black Masculinity The Oppositional Gaze: Black Female Spectators Micheaux's Films: Celebrating Blackness Is Paris Burning? Madonna: Plantation Mistress or Soul Sister? Representations of Whiteness (in the Black Imagination) Revolutionary "Renegades": Native Americans, African Americans & Black Indians Titles alone probably don't help, just trying to give an idea of the flavor of the book as a whole since the Maddy article seems "out of context" or plucked from nowhere... Thanks, CSq. Cool of you. | |
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NuPwrSoul said: CrozzaUK said: Madonna's famed for incorporating what could be considered underground traints into her music and making them more mainstream. True sometimes she maybe a little insensitive to the origins of these, particularly when she is looking for headlines, but i feel that the kind of language Ms Hooks used took this "sampling" a little too seriously. It is harmless really.
I don't know if I would say it's altogether totally harmless. I mean when you have the history of black musical creations being recontextualized by white performers and then those white performers being able to enjoy much more success (in terms of notoriety, fame, money, credit, etc.) than the black originators, there is enough reason to be concerned. So Paul Whiteman gets crowned the king of swing in the '20s, and Count Basie is overlooked. Benny Goodman becomes viewed as the king of jazz in the '30s while Duke Ellington is not regarded as highly, Elvis declared the king of rock n roll and Chuck Berry is who?, and Eric Clapton gets the high brow approval for blues guitarist while BB King does not. Now these performers--Whiteman, Goodman, Presley, and Clapton--may themselves have had a great degree of respect for the origins of their style but the machine that marketed and promoted them and the audience that consumed them apparently were not as appreciative. It's only recent that this has begun to change, and primarily as the result of black folks and concerned others making a concerted and vigilant attempt to make known the contributions of black artists. I didn't get that hooks was declaring Madonna a racist in so much as she seemed more interested in exploring the phenomena at play... some of the same phenomena at play in the history of American popular music. EDIT AT PLAY. [This message was edited Wed Feb 5 14:56:51 PST 2003 by NuPwrSoul] Yeh. Its a historical failing of the record industry as a whole to neglect and discredit the contribution of black artists in music, particularly pre-michael jackson / prince. Whilst artists such as Chuck Berry and Little Richard will never garner as much press as the Beatles or Elvis, I find it reassuring that they're still not forgotten. A couple of years back a respected British Music magazine, Q, did a survey of the 100 greatest music artists of all time, and whilst there was no michael jackson, there was Robert Johnson, Lee 'Scratchy' Perry, BB King, and a whole host of innovators that may not be remembered by the masses but still demand the respect of REAL music fans. | |
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I will say that I think Bell Hooks is a bit envious of Madonna's fame. See, I can be fair. Lol.
Aaron, welcome back to planet funk. No, I will not suck your dick..lol. All you others say Hell Yea!!  | |
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2freaky4church1 said: I will say that I think Bell Hooks is a bit envious of Madonna's fame. See, I can be fair. Lol.
without Her doing a Essay on Madonna nobody would care about Bell "Hatin" Hooks.Aaron, welcome back to planet funk. No, I will not suck your dick..lol. mistermaxxx | |
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mistermaxxx said: 2freaky4church1 said: I will say that I think Bell Hooks is a bit envious of Madonna's fame. See, I can be fair. Lol.
without Her doing a Essay on Madonna nobody would care about Bell "Hatin" Hooks.Aaron, welcome back to planet funk. No, I will not suck your dick..lol. OH JUST STOP IT  I never met you, but I LOVE you & I will forever!! Thank you for being YOU - my little Princey, the best to EVER do it | |
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CalhounSq said: mistermaxxx said: 2freaky4church1 said: I will say that I think Bell Hooks is a bit envious of Madonna's fame. See, I can be fair. Lol.
without Her doing a Essay on Madonna nobody would care about Bell "Hatin" Hooks.Aaron, welcome back to planet funk. No, I will not suck your dick..lol. OH JUST STOP IT mistermaxxx | |
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mistermaxxx said: R.Kelly wouldn't Even waste His time with Bell Hooks.for Dissing Madonna
wondering how in the $%*&@#! R. Kelly got into this... 
after this week I don't have anything to say on this...
Sure you do it's just very questionable 
jiiiiive turkey edit. [This message was edited Sat Feb 8 0:09:27 PST 2003 by CalhounSq] I never met you, but I LOVE you & I will forever!! Thank you for being YOU - my little Princey, the best to EVER do it | |
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CalhounSq said: mistermaxxx said: R.Kelly wouldn't Even waste His time with Bell Hooks.for Dissing Madonna
wondering how in the $%*&@#! R. Kelly got into this...
after this week I don't have anything to say on this...
Sure you do it's just very questionable
jiiive turkey edit. [This message was edited Sat Feb 8 0:09:27 PST 2003 by CalhounSq] mistermaxxx | |
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mistermaxxx said: CalhounSq said: mistermaxxx said: R.Kelly wouldn't Even waste His time with Bell Hooks.for Dissing Madonna
wondering how in the $%*&@#! R. Kelly got into this...
after this week I don't have anything to say on this...
Sure you do it's just very questionable
So if I keep talking you'll just keep pulling people out ya ass???
wonders if Maxxx can work Don King into one of these... I never met you, but I LOVE you & I will forever!! Thank you for being YOU - my little Princey, the best to EVER do it | |
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