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February 7, 2011

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Talking with Wynton Marsalis about jazz is a pleasure, as I discovered while interviewing him for a Sunday Arts & Books profile

Well, the conversation is more listening than talking. But even after all these years of celebrating "America's music," educating kids about its traditions, and of course performing it, Marsalis still speaks with boundless, captivating energy, as if he had just discovered Duke Ellington.

It's interesting, though, to realize Marsalis is most often celebrated as an ambassador of jazz, as he was last month in a "60 Minutes" profile. It seems his music, notably his trumpet playing, almost escapes comment and criticism. Despite his virtuosity and numerous awards, he has not been immune to some pretty serious takedowns.

Jazz critics Gary Giddins and Whitney Balliett, to name two, have never been big Marsalis fans. Perhaps their views could be summed up in Balliett's comment that for all of Marsalis' dazzling playing, he "fails to stir the feelings, to jar the heart."

As we talked, I was thinking about Marsalis' apparent immunity from criticism, and so I asked him about it. He warmed to the subject and seemed delighted to talk about it.

"I grew up in the South and our way of dealing with each other was teasing, ribbing, making fun and scrapping in the street," he said. "Criticism doesn't bother me so much. It actually made me, when I was younger, more aggressive. But you get into middle age and you lose interest in that stuff. It's not serious. I have friends who will critique me much harder than any review.

"I always tell my 14-year-old son to sit in my lesson when I'm talking about music with my friend [conductor and arranger] Bob Sadin. Sadin will come to my house and we'll sit down with scores and talk about them. Once I came in with a notebook full of what I thought was wrong with one of my symphonies. I said, 'I think this is a problem, this is a problem.' He looked me and said, 'Yeah, I'm sure that notebook is full of valid observations. Of course, what's really wrong will be stuff you have no idea is wrong.' So I learned a lot from him.

"A lot of times, reviewers don't really know enough about what you're doing to have an intelligent comment on it. It's hard to sit down and listen to something one time. A musician has worked on something, it has a lot of references, and it's full of things the reviewer doesn't know. A person doing a jazz review -- how much jazz do they know? How much symphonic music do they actually know? I understand the practical aspect of it. Yours is a piece they reviewed on Tuesday. They have a piece to review on Wednesday. I'm not mad at them. I'm just lucky to have the type of friends and musicians and people dedicated to my music that I do.

"Besides, I'm not afraid of you being yourself. That's America. You know what I'm saying? Elvin Jones told me something once. He was at the Village Vanguard, playing with John Coltrane, and somebody said, 'You know, Elvin, a lot of people don't like what you all are playing.' And he said, 'They better start liking it, because we're going to keep on playing it.'"

Identity said:

and somebody said, 'You know, Elvin, a lot of people don't like what you all are playing.' And he said, 'They better start liking it, because we're going to keep on playing it.'"

Perfection..........

Didn't Wynton criticize fusion? I think he said something about his brother playing with Sting too.

I've always respected Mr. Marsalis's tireless work in making sure Jazz music had a place and wouldn't be forgotten in the country of it's birth.

Having said that . . .

Mr. Marsalis dries me up. The man couldn't swing himself out of a hammock, his music is redundant and on a good day mediocre.

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[Edited 2/7/11 12:28pm]

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The Standard Time, Vol 2. Intimacy Calling CD is superb. I nearly wore the grooves off the disc.

MickyDolenz said:

Didn't Wynton criticize fusion? I think he said something about his brother playing with Sting too.

"Criticize" is not the right word. "Attack" would be more to the point. He was sort of right at the time though, because there was a period of time in the 1970s / 1980s when there was only a handful of people doing proper jazz music. What pissed off a lot of people was just his elitist attitude and the assumption that he was somehow above everyone else by doing what he himself did.

I like the stuff he did in Herbie's band when he was younger, but I'm not crazy about his "orchestral" works. Maybe I'll give another listen to them someday.

TD3 said:

I've always respected Mr. Marsalis's tireless work in making sure Jazz music had place and wouldn't be forgotten in the country of it's birth.

Having said that . . .

Mr. Marsalis dries me up. The man couldn't swing himself out of a hammock, his music is redundant and on a good day mediocre.

=============

[Edited 2/7/11 10:48am]

novabrkr said:

MickyDolenz said:

Didn't Wynton criticize fusion? I think he said something about his brother playing with Sting too.

"Criticize" is not the right word. "Attack" would be more to the point. He was sort of right at the time though, because there was a period of time in the 1970s / 1980s when there was only a handful of people doing proper jazz music. What pissed off a lot of people was just his elitist attitude and the assumption that he was somehow above everyone else by doing what he himself did.

I like the stuff he did in Herbie's band when he was younger, but I'm not crazy about his "orchestral" works. Maybe I'll give another listen to them someday.

It also didn't help that Stanley Crouch and a heap of those Jazz purists formed a crusade against the fusion movement on top of them Miles Davis.

That whole "Wynton VS Miles" episode was just shameful. It really showed how devious & out of touch those writers were, and Wynton fell for it like a pawn and he didn't even realize it.

Harlepolis said:

novabrkr said:

"Criticize" is not the right word. "Attack" would be more to the point. He was sort of right at the time though, because there was a period of time in the 1970s / 1980s when there was only a handful of people doing proper jazz music. What pissed off a lot of people was just his elitist attitude and the assumption that he was somehow above everyone else by doing what he himself did.

I like the stuff he did in Herbie's band when he was younger, but I'm not crazy about his "orchestral" works. Maybe I'll give another listen to them someday.

It also didn't help that Stanley Crouch and a heap of those Jazz purists formed a crusade against the fusion movement on top of them Miles Davis.

That whole "Wynton VS Miles" episode was just shameful. It really showed how devious & out of touch those writers were, and Wynton fell for it like a pawn and he didn't even realize it.

CBS Records (today known as Sony Music Entertainment) were so piss that Miles Davis refused to pass the torch to Wynton Marsalis. THAT in itself made the situation worse, to be dead honest.

Harlepolis said:

novabrkr said:

"Criticize" is not the right word. "Attack" would be more to the point. He was sort of right at the time though, because there was a period of time in the 1970s / 1980s when there was only a handful of people doing proper jazz music. What pissed off a lot of people was just his elitist attitude and the assumption that he was somehow above everyone else by doing what he himself did.

I like the stuff he did in Herbie's band when he was younger, but I'm not crazy about his "orchestral" works. Maybe I'll give another listen to them someday.

It also didn't help that Stanley Crouch and a heap of those Jazz purists formed a crusade against the fusion movement on top of them Miles Davis.

That whole "Wynton VS Miles" episode was just shameful. It really showed how devious & out of touch those writers were, and Wynton fell for it like a pawn and he didn't even realize it.

i concur.

TonyVanDam said:

Harlepolis said:

It also didn't help that Stanley Crouch and a heap of those Jazz purists formed a crusade against the fusion movement on top of them Miles Davis.

That whole "Wynton VS Miles" episode was just shameful. It really showed how devious & out of touch those writers were, and Wynton fell for it like a pawn and he didn't even realize it.

CBS Records (today known as Sony Music Entertainment) were so piss that Miles Davis refused to pass the torch to Wynton Marsalis. THAT in itself made the situation worse, to be dead honest.

Why the hell should he? There were far more deserving artists with more experience and flair in the genre than bland ass Wynton Marsalis. And the fact that he showed alot of disrespect to Miles in the press added the fuel, not only that, but in a true "shoot-self-in-the foot" fashion he up and joined Miles uninvited on stage, so you know how the rest went.

I was trying to recall what the story about Wynton's ejection from Miles' stage was and I came across this interesting article at AllAboutJazz.com about the different approaches they took to scoring films about Jack Johnson, and what that says about the different philosophies of making music they've come to represent. Thought I'd share.

"[W]here Marsalis identifies with the audience and writes music that flatters our own sepia-toned vision of the America of a hundred years ago, Davis identified himself with Johnson, and sets out to create a soundtrack that flaunts his own individual style, and that would sound as exotic and even as threatening to the stodgier listeners of Miles' time as the idea of a black heavyweight champion seemed in Johnson's day. Marsalis' score tries to evoke the past, Davis' tries to bring the emotions that were stirred up by Johnson into the present."

http://www.allaboutjazz.c...p?id=16763

deebee said:

I was trying to recall what the story about Wynton's ejection from Miles' stage was and I came across this interesting article at AllAboutJazz.com about the different approaches they took to scoring films about Jack Johnson, and what that says about the different philosophies of making music they've come to represent. Thought I'd share.

"[W]here Marsalis identifies with the audience and writes music that flatters our own sepia-toned vision of the America of a hundred years ago, Davis identified himself with Johnson, and sets out to create a soundtrack that flaunts his own individual style, and that would sound as exotic and even as threatening to the stodgier listeners of Miles' time as the idea of a black heavyweight champion seemed in Johnson's day. Marsalis' score tries to evoke the past, Davis' tries to bring the emotions that were stirred up by Johnson into the present."

http://www.allaboutjazz.c...p?id=16763

i think that states the difference between the two succinctly.

Here's a list of Jazz trumpters, some well known, others not so well known. This isn't about comparing aritist against each other but it is about listening to musicians who play the same instrument and hearing what they've brought to the conversation in terms of musicianship, signature style/techinque/tone and/or compositions. Mr. Marsalis is found wanting in all categories.

Louis Armstrong

Nat Adderley

Henry James Allen a.k.a Red Allan *

Cat Anderson (Duke Ellington Orchestra)

Donald Ayler

Augustus Aiken a.k.a. Gus Aiken

Benny Baily

Clifford Brown

Bix Beiderbecke *

Bobby Bradford

Austin Dean Brisbois

Charles "Buddy" Bolden *

Rowland Bernard "Bunny" Berigan

Donald Byrd

Dupree Bolton

Emmett Berry (accompanist of Billie Holdiay)

Joseph "Sharkey" Bonano

Terence Oliver Blanchard (a contemporary of Mr. Marsalis)

Benny Carter

Bill Chase ( Jazz Fusion)

William "Bill" Coleman

Buck Clayton * (Count Basie's Orchestra)

Jonny Coles

Leeds "Lee" Collings

Jimmy Dorsey

Kenny Dorham

Miles Davis

Harry "Sweets" Edison

Roy Eldridge

Art Framer

Dizzy Gillespie

Freddie Hubbard

Roy Hardgrove (another a contemporary)

Henry James

Lee Morgan

Fats Navarro

Joe "King" Oliver **

Bobby Shew

Cootie Williams ( Duke Ellington Orchestra, had his own orchestra with the likes of Charlie Parker, Bud Powell & Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis, then very young lions)

Charlie Shavers ( trumpet soloist with Billie Holiday)

Clark Terry

Emanuel Perez **

I've heard Marsalis for years go on and on about Mr. Ellingtion and Mr. Armstrong and what they did any how their music is the "blueprint" the foundation for how Jazz music should be played (interpreted") and composed. Please. Those two gentlemen created a style, a tone and wrote compostitions that Mr. Marsalis couldn't conjure up if he went to the crossroads and sold his soul to the devil. Mr. Ellington and Mr. Armstrong created a musical idiom that's theirs and theirs alone. All Marsalis has written is some boring inferior copies of others orginal works. The asturias behind the Jazz trumpters I've listed, were influenced by Louis Armstrong or Armostrong con-

temporaries. (Mr. Armstrong is Marsalis's hero) Those musicians built upon Armstrong style/tone

/technique . . they expanded his sound, his technique to incorporate their own ideas. As James Mtume said in his debates with Stanley Crouch, artist go through three different stages, 1) Imitation 2) Emulation 3) Innovation.

Marsalis career has been built upon imitation and he hasn't done that well by any stretch of the imagination. As far as him quoting Evlin Jones, how ironic! Mr. Jones embraced and played Free Jazz (was the drummer on, A Love Supreme) and Avant-garde jazz. When Coltrane told Mr. Jones, some aren't going to like what you are playing, it was because those same "jazz purists" were already bitching about Avant-garde and Free Jazz.

Listen to some of these musicians and then comeback and we can speak of what Mr. Marsalis is and isn't. I don't know what critics listen to. But I know they're people who are listners of Jazz from it's earlist begining to present and know what's quality and what's bullshit. More so, the man CAN'T EVEN SWING.

-----------

[Edited 2/8/11 6:15am

[Edited 2/9/11 5:18am]

deebee said:

I was trying to recall what the story about Wynton's ejection from Miles' stage was and I came across this interesting article at AllAboutJazz.com about the different approaches they took to scoring films about Jack Johnson, and what that says about the different philosophies of making music they've come to represent. Thought I'd share.

"[W]here Marsalis identifies with the audience and writes music that flatters our own sepia-toned vision of the America of a hundred years ago, Davis identified himself with Johnson, and sets out to create a soundtrack that flaunts his own individual style, and that would sound as exotic and even as threatening to the stodgier listeners of Miles' time as the idea of a black heavyweight champion seemed in Johnson's day. Marsalis' score tries to evoke the past, Davis' tries to bring the emotions that were stirred up by Johnson into the present."

http://www.allaboutjazz.c...p?id=16763

Mr. Davis said in an interview, Mr. Marsalis walked out onto the stage to play with him without permission. As close as he was to Dizzy Gillespie they never walked on stage when the other was playing unless they asked beforehand. That's the story.

I think I can sense some hostility towards Mr. Marsalis on this thread.

novabrkr said:

I think I can sense some hostility towards Mr. Marsalis on this thread.

Oh I do like him, I've wore out his "Haydn - Three Favorite Concertos" album(I prefer his classical stuff over the Jazz ones).

I just don't agree with him or those Jazz purists who showed in Ken Burns' Jazz in so many ways than one how contradictory they were to the sole idea of Jazz' existence to begin with.

MJJstudent said:

deebee said:

I was trying to recall what the story about Wynton's ejection from Miles' stage was and I came across this interesting article at AllAboutJazz.com about the different approaches they took to scoring films about Jack Johnson, and what that says about the different philosophies of making music they've come to represent. Thought I'd share.

http://www.allaboutjazz.c...p?id=16763

i think that states the difference between the two succinctly.

Yeah, I really like Miles' Jack Johnson album, and I think it works well as a 'fusion' piece because of the interplay and the way it develops. The first movement of 'Yesternow', with the bass riff from James Brown's 'Say it Loud, I'm Black and I'm Proud' at its core, is probably my favourite part.

Harlepolis said:

novabrkr said:

I think I can sense some hostility towards Mr. Marsalis on this thread.

Oh I do like him, I've wore out his "Haydn - Three Favorite Concertos" album(I prefer his classical stuff over the Jazz ones).

I just don't agree with him or those Jazz purists who showed in Ken Burns' Jazz in so many ways than one how contradictory they were to the sole idea of Jazz' existence to begin with.

Yeah, I remember being a lot more hardcore against the purists, in favour of the 'progressives', like Miles, that kept trying to innovate and drive the music forward, in years gone by. I think I can see where Wynton et al are coming from now, in some ways, as I think they want to stand jazz up as a kind of (Black) American classical music to be respected and even revered, and there's perhaps something laudable about that, even if does run contrary to the way jazz was performed and perceived to begin with, like you say; and if it seems to come at the price of having to cloister it like some kind of fragile museum piece, so that it doesn't get 'contaminated' by the living, buzzing world around it.

Mind you, they saw to it that the fusionists a got a particularly raw deal in that Ken Burns documentary, if I recall correctly; reduced to little more than a embarrassing footnote in jazz history, thanks to a brief clip of Miles and his band crashing through some less inspired material on an off-night, which was rather uncharitably selected.

TD3 said:

Here's a list of Jazz trumpters, some well known, others not so well known. This isn't about comparing aritist against each other but it is about listening to musicians who play the same instrument and hearing what they've brought to the conversation in terms of musicianship, signature style/techinque/tone and/or compositions. Mr. Marsalis is found wanting in all categories.

Louis Armstrong

Nat Adderley

Henry James Allen a.k.a Red Allan *

Cat Anderson (Duke Ellington Orchestra)

Donald Ayler

Augustus Aiken a.k.a. Gus Aiken

Benny Baily

Clifford Brown

Bix Beiderbecke *

Bobby Bradford

Austin Dean Brisbois

Charles "Buddy" Bolden *

Rowland Bernard "Bunny" Berigan

Donald Byrd

Dupree Bolton

Emmett Berry (accompanist of Billie Holdiay)

Joseph "Sharkey" Bonano

Terence Oliver Blanchard (a contemporary of Mr. Marsalis)

Benny Carter

Bill Chase ( Jazz Fusion)

William "Bill" Coleman

Buck Clayton * (Count Basie's Orchestra)

Jonny Coles

Leeds "Lee" Collings

Jimmy Dorsey

Kenny Dorham

Miles Davis

Harry "Sweets" Edison

Roy Eldridge

Art Framer

Dizzy Gillespie

Freddie Hubbard

Roy Hardgrove (another a contemporary)

Henry James

Lee Morgan

Fats Navarro

Joe "King" Oliver **

Bobby Shew

Cootie Williams ( Duke Ellington Orchestra, had his own orchestra with the likes of Charlie Parker, Bud Powell & Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis, then very young lions)

Charlie Shavers ( trumpet soloist with Billie Holiday)

Clark Terry

Emanuel Perez **

I've heard Marsalis for years go on and one about Mr. Ellingtion and Mr. Armstrong and what they did any how their music is the "blueprint" the foundation for how Jazz music should be played (interpreted") and composed. Please. Those two gentlemen created a style, a tone and wrote compostitions that Mr. Marsalis could conjure up if he went to the crossroads and sold his soul to the devil. Mr. Ellington and Mr. Armstrong created a musical idiom that's theirs and theirs alone. All Marsalis has done written some boring inferior copies of others orginal works. The asturias behind the Jazz trumpters I've listed, were influenced by Louis Armstrong or Armstrong contemporaries. (Mr. Armstrong is Marsalis's hero) Those musicians built upon Armstrong style/tone/technique . . they expanded his sound, his technique to incorporate their own ideas. As James Mtume said in his debates with Stanley Crouch, artist go through three different stages, 1) Imitation 2) Emulation 3) Innovation.

Marsalis career has been built upon imitation and he hasn't done that well by any stretch of the imagination. As far as him quoting Evlin Jones, how ironic! Mr. Jones embraced and played Free Jazz (was the drummer on, A Love Supreme) and Avant-garde jazz. When Coltrane told Mr. Jones, some aren't going to like what you are playing, it was because those same "jazz purists" were already bitching about Avant-garde and Free Jazz.

Listen to some of these musicians and then comeback and we can speak of what Mr. Marsalis is and isn't. I don't know what critics listen to. But I know they're people who are listners of Jazz from it's earlist begining to present and know what's quality and what's bullshit. More so, the man CAN'T EVEN SWING.

-----------

[Edited 2/8/11 6:15am]

i LOVE terrence blanchard!!! i had an opportunity to see him live in new orleans (some time before katrina). he's amazing. i love his work.

oh, don't forget marsalis' and crouch's love for sidney bechet. and donald byrd, man, he was one of the funkiest cats out there. blue note all day, every day!

[Edited 2/8/11 7:15am]

[Edited 2/8/11 7:17am]

lee morgan is actually my favourite trumpetist of all times... i'm surprised i never have gotten grief for that.

my favourite lee morgan tune:

man, you get lee morgan, herbie hancock, art blakey and horace silver together in a room? that is jazz heaven to me!

MJJstudent said:

lee morgan is actually my favourite trumpetist of all times... i'm surprised i never have gotten grief for that.

my favourite lee morgan tune:

man, you get lee morgan, herbie hancock, art blakey and horace silver together in a room? that is jazz heaven to me!

Amongst my favorites as well.

jazz heaven to me though, would ALSO be albert ayler, pharoah sanders, abbey lincoln, nat adderley, terrence blanchard, herbie hancock, john coltrane, eddie harris, george duke, charles mingus (on the bass), rachelle farell, dianne reeves, roberta flack, bernard purdy, james jamerson, sheila e, andy bey, esperanza spaulding, les mc cann, eugene mc daniels and nancy wilson... i'm sure there's a few more, but this would be a WONDERFUL scene!

one of my most cherished moments in life is having a conversation about life and art with ornette coleman on the 6 train... this is some years before he moved to switzerland or whatever.

TD3 said:

MJJstudent said:

lee morgan is actually my favourite trumpetist of all times... i'm surprised i never have gotten grief for that.

my favourite lee morgan tune:

man, you get lee morgan, herbie hancock, art blakey and horace silver together in a room? that is jazz heaven to me!

Amongst my favorites as well.

YAAAAAAAAAY!

Harlepolis said:

TonyVanDam said:

CBS Records (today known as Sony Music Entertainment) were so piss that Miles Davis refused to pass the torch to Wynton Marsalis. THAT in itself made the situation worse, to be dead honest.

Why the hell should he? There were far more deserving artists with more experience and flair in the genre than bland ass Wynton Marsalis. And the fact that he showed alot of disrespect to Miles in the press added the fuel, not only that, but in a true "shoot-self-in-the foot" fashion he up and joined Miles uninvited on stage, so you know how the rest went.

Pretty much.

I think Wynton's a great trumpet player (the Haydn album Harlopolis mentioned and Marsalis Standard Time Vol.1 are both great records) but his mindset about jazz is basically the same academic mindset that killed classical music, just as it's killed jazz. It's all about, "This is what you play over this chord, over this beat, on this tune, etc."

Jazz has a lot in common with punk rock, but most jazz musicians don't really seem to know that and want to act like they're above the roots of the music. To me, the future of jazz is in electronic music bands like Jaga Jazzist and the Cinematic Orchestra, as well as folks like Avishai Cohen.

guitarslinger44 said:

I think Wynton's a great trumpet player (the Haydn album Harlopolis mentioned and Marsalis Standard Time Vol.1 are both great records) but his mindset about jazz is basically the same academic mindset that killed classical music, just as it's killed jazz. It's all about, "This is what you play over this chord, over this beat, on this tune, etc."

Jazz has a lot in common with punk rock, but most jazz musicians don't really seem to know that and want to act like they're above the roots of the music. To me, the future of jazz is in electronic music bands like Jaga Jazzist and the Cinematic Orchestra, as well as folks like Avishai Cohen.

I need to write this down on my shopping list.

novabrkr said:

I think I can sense some hostility towards Mr. Marsalis on this thread.

Personally, I've always felt he was too full of himself.

PDogz said:

novabrkr said:

I think I can sense some hostility towards Mr. Marsalis on this thread.

Personally, I've always felt he was too full of himself.

I dunno, PDogz....his hubris may just be warranted, in terms of chops. Check this:

JamFanHot said:

PDogz said:

Personally, I've always felt he was too full of himself.

I dunno, PDogz....his hubris may just be warranted, in terms of chops. Check this:

Oh yeah, I absolutely agree: He's got the chops, for days. When it comes to Jazz, I think he's a skilled technician. And he knows his history very, very well. I have nothing but the utmost respect for his talent, and own several of his CD's that are beyond impressive.

But he acts like they built that whole new Jazz at Lincoln Center complex just for him! And ya know... THEY PROBABLY DID!

He just got the big head, that's all, lol. That's my only issue with him, lol.