BabyBeMine said:

Its funny in 2001 many stations in california played the entire albums and i rememeber Steve Harvey when he was with 100.3 the beat and Big Boy with power 106 were like play that Butterflies, Break of Dawn and Heaven Can wait one more time..lol...Unbreakable, invincible, heartbreaker they were like...its aiiiight....Problem was MJ on his dance tracks was not singing like in the 80s. Instead he was yelling and screaming. Cant understand him.

Dont stop to you get enough, Working Day and night, Get on the Floor, Burn this Disco out. PYT, Way You Make me feel, the up tempo tracks on Triumph and before then. Thats the MJ thats popular when it comes to dance tracks.

That yelling and screaming is only popular to the fan base which is why he has not had a hit dance track in years. Hopefully Hollywood Tonight he's happy and singing.

In the Bay Area, You Rock My World, Heaven Can Wait, 2000 Watts, and Butterflies got a lot of radio play and Unbreakable got a couple of plays

I remember more people liking 2000 Watts, Invincible, and Butterflies more than YRMW

bboy87 said:

BabyBeMine said:

Its funny in 2001 many stations in california played the entire albums and i rememeber Steve Harvey when he was with 100.3 the beat and Big Boy with power 106 were like play that Butterflies, Break of Dawn and Heaven Can wait one more time..lol...Unbreakable, invincible, heartbreaker they were like...its aiiiight....Problem was MJ on his dance tracks was not singing like in the 80s. Instead he was yelling and screaming. Cant understand him.

Dont stop to you get enough, Working Day and night, Get on the Floor, Burn this Disco out. PYT, Way You Make me feel, the up tempo tracks on Triumph and before then. Thats the MJ thats popular when it comes to dance tracks.

That yelling and screaming is only popular to the fan base which is why he has not had a hit dance track in years. Hopefully Hollywood Tonight he's happy and singing.

In the Bay Area, You Rock My World, Heaven Can Wait, 2000 Watts, and Butterflies got a lot of radio play and Unbreakable got a couple of plays

I remember more people liking 2000 Watts, Invincible, and Butterflies more than YRMW

I guess some want to not believe that Michael and Sony being at a war was a reason why none of the singles from Invincible were released after YRMW. That he was just "old" and "just screaming".

Half his hits after Thriller were from "screaming". So...uh...yeah. Shamon!

"Happy and singing" Please.

[Edited 12/2/10 19:35pm]

Jam and Blood on the Dance Floor were not hits in the USA. Scream peaked at #5 which was great because of the video. Remember the Time was a bigger hit than Jam in the US.

Unbreakable was not released because MJ wanted a ridiculous budget for the video when Sony was unsure if he could still sell like he used to. This isnt charity where lables just say here's 20 million. I remember MJ wanted to have George Lucas and then Mel Gibson as a actor which would have cost a lot. If your song is hot a video costing 500,000 should do the job.

Also radio stations were playing Butterflies. It was more in demand. Singing about how pissed off at the media is just not catchy. PPl want to hear relationship type lyrics or something that makes the want to get there groove on at the club.

BabyBeMine said:

Jam and Blood on the Dance Floor were not hits in the USA. Scream peaked at #5 which was great because of the video. Remember the Time was a bigger hit than Jam in the US.

Unbreakable was not released because MJ wanted a ridiculous budget for the video when Sony was unsure if he could still sell like he used to. This isnt charity where lables just say here's 20 million. I remember MJ wanted to have George Lucas and then Mel Gibson as a actor which would have cost a lot. If your song is hot a video costing 500,000 should do the job.

Also radio stations were playing Butterflies. It was more in demand. Singing about how pissed off at the media is just not catchy. PPl want to hear relationship type lyrics or something that makes the want to get there groove on at the club.

I had to leave my hiatus from the org just to say

You're a fucking idiot...

I'm sorry about the flame...

I really am...

But c'mon

you can't deny after reading that post,

that this orger is somewhat unbalanced mentally.

Definitely rode on the short bus to school if you catch my drift

fuck it...

I'm going back to hiatus...

P.S.

Blue Gangsta is the shit even with all the screaming...

so ...

Suck It...

[Edited 12/2/10 19:50pm]

BabyBeMine said:

Jam and Blood on the Dance Floor were not hits in the USA. Scream peaked at #5 which was great because of the video. Remember the Time was a bigger hit than Jam in the US.

Unbreakable was not released because MJ wanted a ridiculous budget for the video when Sony was unsure if he could still sell like he used to. This isnt charity where lables just say here's 20 million. I remember MJ wanted to have George Lucas and then Mel Gibson as a actor which would have cost a lot. If your song is hot a video costing 500,000 should do the job.

Also radio stations were playing Butterflies. It was more in demand. Singing about how pissed off at the media is just not catchy. PPl want to hear relationship type lyrics or something that makes the want to get there groove on at the club.

Well, "Blood On The Dance Floor" holds the Guiness World Record for being the biggest selling "remix album" of all time. Most of that was due to the success of the title track, and the "Ghosts" short film. So maybe the song wasn't a hit in the US, but it sure was everywhere else in the world I remember buying it the day it came out and watching the premiere of the music video on TV!

Also, a catchy song is a catchy song, regardless of what the lyrical content is about. People don't want to hear songs where people are pissed off? Well, I have four words for that - "Smells Like Teen Spirit".

And actually, MJ could have financed the "Unbreakable" video himself if Sony would have agreed to it being a single. That's what he did with "Thriller". He financed that himself, Epic/CBS didn't want to put any money into it as they felt the album had run its course and there had already been three singles - "The Girl Is Mine", "Billie Jean" and "Beat It". So who turned out to be right on that one, hey?

BabyBeMine said:

Jam and Blood on the Dance Floor were not hits in the USA. Scream peaked at #5 which was great because of the video. Remember the Time was a bigger hit than Jam in the US.

Unbreakable was not released because MJ wanted a ridiculous budget for the video when Sony was unsure if he could still sell like he used to. This isnt charity where lables just say here's 20 million. I remember MJ wanted to have George Lucas and then Mel Gibson as a actor which would have cost a lot. If your song is hot a video costing 500,000 should do the job.

Also radio stations were playing Butterflies. It was more in demand. Singing about how pissed off at the media is just not catchy. PPl want to hear relationship type lyrics or something that makes the want to get there groove on at the club.

JAM

----

Hot 100: #26

R&B: #3

Dance Club Play: #4

BLOOD ON THE DANCEFLOOR:

-----

Hot 100: #42

R&B: #19

BabyBeMine said:

I think some fans are overating songs like Blue Gangsta and Slave to the Rhythym because they feel like some of the songs on Michael are fake.

Good grief. People have been harping on about wanting a full version of Blue Gangsta ever since the rap version leaked over 3 years ago.

It's a good song, not overly-personal or paranoid like some of his other songs, it's got interesting instrumentation, and is dance-friendly.

bboy87 said:

BabyBeMine said:

Jam and Blood on the Dance Floor were not hits in the USA. Scream peaked at #5 which was great because of the video. Remember the Time was a bigger hit than Jam in the US.

Unbreakable was not released because MJ wanted a ridiculous budget for the video when Sony was unsure if he could still sell like he used to. This isnt charity where lables just say here's 20 million. I remember MJ wanted to have George Lucas and then Mel Gibson as a actor which would have cost a lot. If your song is hot a video costing 500,000 should do the job.

Also radio stations were playing Butterflies. It was more in demand. Singing about how pissed off at the media is just not catchy. PPl want to hear relationship type lyrics or something that makes the want to get there groove on at the club.

JAM

----

Hot 100: #26

R&B: #3

Dance Club Play: #4

BLOOD ON THE DANCEFLOOR:

-----

Hot 100: #42

R&B: #19

Thats pretty impressive considering that song sucked ass...

Refugee Camp Mix all the way...

BabyBeMine said:

Jam and Blood on the Dance Floor were not hits in the USA. Scream peaked at #5 which was great because of the video. Remember the Time was a bigger hit than Jam in the US.

Unbreakable was not released because MJ wanted a ridiculous budget for the video when Sony was unsure if he could still sell like he used to. This isnt charity where lables just say here's 20 million. I remember MJ wanted to have George Lucas and then Mel Gibson as a actor which would have cost a lot. If your song is hot a video costing 500,000 should do the job.

Also radio stations were playing Butterflies. It was more in demand. Singing about how pissed off at the media is just not catchy. PPl want to hear relationship type lyrics or something that makes the want to get there groove on at the club.

The USA isn't the only country that exists in the world. Nor is it the center of the world. Never was and never will be. Just because it didn't crack the the #1 spot is in the US or whatever has no bearing on the quality of the song, at all. Just the popularity of it. That's it.

Actually, Billboard placements and how many copies an album has sold =/ quality, at all. Are you going to tell me that Jimi Hendrix was played out and all of those people who sing that man's praises are deluded simply, because he was a one hit wonder in the US? So according to your logic, I am to believe that Justin Bieber >>>>>>> Jimi Hendrix just based on the fact that Justin's had way more hits in the US than Jimi?!

Most people will tell you that is pure nonsense, but according to you that would only make perfect sense. =/

BabyBeMine said:

Jam and Blood on the Dance Floor were not hits in the USA. Scream peaked at #5 which was great because of the video. Remember the Time was a bigger hit than Jam in the US.

Unbreakable was not released because MJ wanted a ridiculous budget for the video when Sony was unsure if he could still sell like he used to. This isnt charity where lables just say here's 20 million. I remember MJ wanted to have George Lucas and then Mel Gibson as a actor which would have cost a lot. If your song is hot a video costing 500,000 should do the job.

Also radio stations were playing Butterflies. It was more in demand. Singing about how pissed off at the media is just not catchy. PPl want to hear relationship type lyrics or something that makes the want to get there groove on at the club.

Rumours had it Sony deliberately leaked "you rock my world" to radio stations early to force an official release and music video. Funny you mention the supposed budget for "unbreakable", when Sony was more then happy to give Michael an allegded $7 million for the "you rock my world" video budget? Seems Sony were hell bent on "YRMW" no matter what.

Personaly I thought Sony should of gone with jackson's choice of "unbreakable", but I think what really yanked Jackson's chain was the "what more can I give" debarcle and the small budget he was supposedly pissed at for the "cry" video. Hissy fits maybe LOL. I gotta say that Mike was wrong for the "sony is racist" thing from what I have seen. Sorry Michael. Sony did spent a reasonable amount for "invincible" up intil the "sony is racist" thing. The only thing Sony fucked up on was giving up on it too early, particually in the US when "butterflies" was gaining nicely. But by then Michael took to the streets and Sony pulled the curtain on that album and that was that. Can't blame them LOL.

Probably the fact that Michael had no plans to tour (from what I have seen) probably annoyed Sont abit aswell.

BabyBeMine said:

I think some fans are overating songs like Blue Gangsta and Slave to the Rhythym because they feel like some of the songs on Michael are fake. These two tracks are ok, but there definitely not HOT. A non fan is non gonna turn on the radio and be like daaaaaamn turn that up, Its aiiiight

Fans will be upset when they continue reading...Keep Your Head Up is the jam

Tune in to opinions from r&b and hip hop fans, along with radio. This track will get the same response as Butterflies on Urban Radio. Remember once the album is released hip hip radio stations dont even follow what should be the single..lol...They play what they like. In 2001 Butterflies had not even been released yet and they were playing it anyway. Keep Your Head up...like it or not will get the exact same response. Soulful Mike is just loved on Urban radio

You do know that these days radio playlists are based on research groups and listener feedback and that contrary to what you expect songs that get voted 5 out of 5 aren't the songs they push or welcome. Songs that score 5 or score 1 are viewed the same - they are the songs some people love and others hate. Thus a likelihood to switch stations or turn off - which kills their revenue via advertising.

Instead they look for songs that score 3s - as they are songs that people neither overly love or overly hate and therefore won't switch stations - keeping people listening and advertisers happy.

So maybe radio airplay friendliness shouldn't be the sole measure of quality.

Talking of charts, "Heal the world" was a big hit in europe (second only to "black or white" I'd say), and probably sold more then "black or white" in the UK as it was no 2 for weeks only thanks to "I will always love you" holding it off (and robbing it over the once coveted UK christmas no. 1 spot), but despite the superbowel performance, it failed on the main chart in the US? Maybe it was too soft for mainstream radio?

It only got to no. 27. Maybe it was too close to "we are the world" to get people buying (remember of course "we are the world" was a no. 1 in the UK, but not half as inpactful as it was in the states).

Apparantly the late cd single release of "jam" hampered sales. Not sure how true that is but no doubt it was clear that the album in general was fading alot quicker then both "bad" and "Thriller" in both the US and UK, and a few of the singles proved it....(though ironically "dangerous" did better in countries outside the US and UK then "thriller" and probably "bad")....

... Luckily Oprah, AMA's, and the superbowl regenerated life for the album (in the US particually) so in the end, it sold about the same as "bad" in the US and still did about 2 million in the UK. Worth noting that "Bad" in the UK has now done 3 million plus but consider "bad" is still just about in the top 10 best selling UK albums EVER, the 2 million it got from "Dangerous" is nothing to scoff at, making that album roughly 10X platinum, compared to the US where it stands around 6 or 7 times platinum).

Theres a misconception that "dangerous" did somewhat worse then "bad" sales wise, but that appears not to be the case at all as they seem to be about even in worldwide sales.

BabyBeMine said:

Jam and Blood on the Dance Floor were not hits in the USA. Scream peaked at #5 which was great because of the video. Remember the Time was a bigger hit than Jam in the US.

Unbreakable was not released because MJ wanted a ridiculous budget for the video when Sony was unsure if he could still sell like he used to. This isnt charity where lables just say here's 20 million. I remember MJ wanted to have George Lucas and then Mel Gibson as a actor which would have cost a lot. If your song is hot a video costing 500,000 should do the job.

Also radio stations were playing Butterflies. It was more in demand. Singing about how pissed off at the media is just not catchy. PPl want to hear relationship type lyrics or something that makes the want to get there groove on at the club.

You've often cited this figure and fact. Were you able to track down the article you recall getting this figure from or the article that references GL or MG? If you found them would love to read them.

Just think it's easy to buy into rumours and have them evolve into facts - lord knows it's happened many times with Michael.

thesexofit said:

BabyBeMine said:

Jam and Blood on the Dance Floor were not hits in the USA. Scream peaked at #5 which was great because of the video. Remember the Time was a bigger hit than Jam in the US.

Unbreakable was not released because MJ wanted a ridiculous budget for the video when Sony was unsure if he could still sell like he used to. This isnt charity where lables just say here's 20 million. I remember MJ wanted to have George Lucas and then Mel Gibson as a actor which would have cost a lot. If your song is hot a video costing 500,000 should do the job.

Also radio stations were playing Butterflies. It was more in demand. Singing about how pissed off at the media is just not catchy. PPl want to hear relationship type lyrics or something that makes the want to get there groove on at the club.

Rumours had it Sony deliberately leaked "you rock my world" to radio stations early to force an official release and music video. Funny you mention the supposed budget for "unbreakable", when Sony was more then happy to give Michael an allegded $7 million for the "you rock my world" video budget? Seems Sony were hell bent on "YRMW" no matter what.

Personaly I thought Sony should of gone with jackson's choice of "unbreakable", but I think what really yanked Jackson's chain was the "what more can I give" debarcle and the small budget he was supposedly pissed at for the "cry" video. Hissy fits maybe LOL. I gotta say that Mike was wrong for the "sony is racist" thing from what I have seen. Sorry Michael. Sony did spent a reasonable amount for "invincible" up intil the "sony is racist" thing. The only thing Sony fucked up on was giving up on it too early, particually in the US when "butterflies" was gaining nicely. But by then Michael took to the streets and Sony pulled the curtain on that album and that was that. Can't blame them LOL.

Probably the fact that Michael had no plans to tour (from what I have seen) probably annoyed Sont abit aswell.

Didn't they pull the plug on it before Michael did the speech in New York? I remember that big email from MJNI in January 2002 that Sony had decided to end promotion. The singles in the states charted on airplay online. No CD singles (although vinyl copies of You Rock My World and Butterflies were available in limited supply)

thesexofit said:

Rumours had it Sony deliberately leaked "you rock my world" to radio stations early to force an official release and music video. Funny you mention the supposed budget for "unbreakable", when Sony was more then happy to give Michael an allegded $7 million for the "you rock my world" video budget? Seems Sony were hell bent on "YRMW" no matter what.

Personaly I thought Sony should of gone with jackson's choice of "unbreakable", but I think what really yanked Jackson's chain was the "what more can I give" debarcle and the small budget he was supposedly pissed at for the "cry" video. Hissy fits maybe LOL. I gotta say that Mike was wrong for the "sony is racist" thing from what I have seen. Sorry Michael. Sony did spent a reasonable amount for "invincible" up intil the "sony is racist" thing. The only thing Sony fucked up on was giving up on it too early, particually in the US when "butterflies" was gaining nicely. But by then Michael took to the streets and Sony pulled the curtain on that album and that was that. Can't blame them LOL.

Probably the fact that Michael had no plans to tour (from what I have seen) probably annoyed Sont abit aswell.

The Invincible thing was a debacle on both sides. Sony forcing MJ's hand may have been a necessary evil otherwise he could have been another year. And as you say Sony gave up on the album too soon.

The way Michael was being treated made him over react - especially when it came to light the way they structured his masters arrangement and shifty dealing over the publishing. And the Sony is racist event was a complete mis-step no matter how frustrated he was over the issue.

Truth be told - management had changed at Sony and their focus was elsewhere, and Michael was no longer a priority.

As for the tour - according to some of the crew from This Is It MJ had planned to tour in support of Invincible but post 9/11 he cancelled the plans.

From wikipedia (sources cited) so take it for what you will.

Invincible was Jackson's first full-length album in six years, and it would be the last album of new material he released while still alive. The release of the album was preceded by a dispute between Jackson and his record label, Sony Music Entertainment. Jackson had expected the licenses to the masters of his albums to revert to him sometime in the early 2000s. Once he had the licenses, he would be able to promote the material however he pleased and he would also be able to keep all the profits. However, due to various clauses in the contract, the revert date turned out to be many years away. Jackson discovered that the attorney who represented him in the deal was also representing Sony.^[142] Jackson was also concerned about the fact that for a number of years, Sony had been pressuring him to sell his share in their music catalog venture. Jackson feared that Sony might have a conflict of interest, since if Jackson's career failed he would have to sell his share of the catalog at a low price.^[146] Jackson sought an early exit from his contract.^[142] Just before the release of Invincible, Jackson informed the head of Sony Music Entertainment, Tommy Mottola, that he was leaving Sony.^[142] As a result, all singles releases, video shootings and promotions concerning the Invincible album were suspended.

In September 2001, two 30th Anniversary concerts were held at Madison Square Garden to mark the singer's 30th year as a solo artist. Jackson appeared onstage alongside his brothers for the first time since 1984. The show also featured performances by Mýa, Usher, Whitney Houston, 'N Sync, Destiny's Child, Monica, Luther Vandross, and Slash, among other artists.^[147] The second of the two shows took place the night before the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.^[148] After 9/11, Jackson helped organize the United We Stand: What More Can I Give benefit concert at RFK Stadium in Washington, D.C. The concert took place on October 21, 2001, and included performances from dozens of major artists, including Jackson, who performed his song "What More Can I Give" as the finale.^[146] Jackson's solo performances were omitted from the televised version of the benefit concert, although he could still be seen singing background vocals. This omission happened because of contractual issues related to the earlier 30th Anniversary concerts: those concerts were boiled down into a two-hour TV special entitled Michael Jackson: 30th Anniversary Celebration: The Solo Years which debuted in November 2001.

In spite of the events preceding its release, Invincible came out in October 2001 to much anticipation. Invincible proved to be a hit, debuting atop the charts in 13 countries and going on to sell approximately 13 million copies worldwide. It received double-platinum certification in the US.^{[96][99][149]} However, the sales for Invincible were lower than those of his previous releases, due in part to a lack of promotion, no supporting world tour and the label dispute. The album also came out at a bad time for the music industry in general.^[146] The album cost $30 million to record, not including promotional expenditures.^[150]Invincible spawned three singles, "You Rock My World", "Cry" and "Butterflies", the latter without a music video. Jackson alleged in July 2002 that Mottola was a "devil" and a "racist" who did not support his African-American artists, using them merely for his own personal gain.^[146] He charged that Mottola had called his colleague Irv Gotti a "fat nigger".^[151] Sony refused to renew Jackson's contract, and claimed that a $25 million promotional campaign had failed because Jackson refused to tour in the United States.^[150]

Bboy87 and Swa, I think your both maybe right on the "invincible" thing.

Bboy87, I remember that email LOL. Nearly 10 years ago. Time flies huh? Yeah maybe Sony did give up on it and then Michael took it to the streets. But it makes more sense Sony put the plug on "invincible" after the whole rally thing, otherwise it swings back to the conspiracy that Swa reminded me of (and that I forgot)...

.. The massively complicated issue with Jackson's master recordings and release from Sony plus the Beatles catalogue Sony wanted Michael to sign over (allegedly- though remember Sony already owned half of it by then and "collected" even more artists to the catalogue, making both MJ and Sony even more money.). You could write a book just on this part of his story LOL.

I think "Invincible" did about 5 million worldwide by end of 2001 and Sony even gave a statement saying so, and Sony wanted to pull the plug on it just a month later? True "cry" did bomb in europe but still... Christ knows what went down. Mike could of spoken up about it like George Michael and Prince. But what did he do, he talked about absurd racism claims LOL that were just out of nowhere. Oh Mike.

Swa said:

From wikipedia (sources cited) so take it for what you will.

Invincible was Jackson's first full-length album in six years, and it would be the last album of new material he released while still alive. The release of the album was preceded by a dispute between Jackson and his record label, Sony Music Entertainment. Jackson had expected the licenses to the masters of his albums to revert to him sometime in the early 2000s. Once he had the licenses, he would be able to promote the material however he pleased and he would also be able to keep all the profits. However, due to various clauses in the contract, the revert date turned out to be many years away. Jackson discovered that the attorney who represented him in the deal was also representing Sony.^[142] Jackson was also concerned about the fact that for a number of years, Sony had been pressuring him to sell his share in their music catalog venture. Jackson feared that Sony might have a conflict of interest, since if Jackson's career failed he would have to sell his share of the catalog at a low price.^[146] Jackson sought an early exit from his contract.^[142] Just before the release of Invincible, Jackson informed the head of Sony Music Entertainment, Tommy Mottola, that he was leaving Sony.^[142] As a result, all singles releases, video shootings and promotions concerning the Invincible album were suspended.

In September 2001, two 30th Anniversary concerts were held at Madison Square Garden to mark the singer's 30th year as a solo artist. Jackson appeared onstage alongside his brothers for the first time since 1984. The show also featured performances by Mýa, Usher, Whitney Houston, 'N Sync, Destiny's Child, Monica, Luther Vandross, and Slash, among other artists.^[147] The second of the two shows took place the night before the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.^[148] After 9/11, Jackson helped organize the United We Stand: What More Can I Give benefit concert at RFK Stadium in Washington, D.C. The concert took place on October 21, 2001, and included performances from dozens of major artists, including Jackson, who performed his song "What More Can I Give" as the finale.^[146] Jackson's solo performances were omitted from the televised version of the benefit concert, although he could still be seen singing background vocals. This omission happened because of contractual issues related to the earlier 30th Anniversary concerts: those concerts were boiled down into a two-hour TV special entitled Michael Jackson: 30th Anniversary Celebration: The Solo Years which debuted in November 2001.

In spite of the events preceding its release, Invincible came out in October 2001 to much anticipation. Invincible proved to be a hit, debuting atop the charts in 13 countries and going on to sell approximately 13 million copies worldwide. It received double-platinum certification in the US.^{[96][99][149]} However, the sales for Invincible were lower than those of his previous releases, due in part to a lack of promotion, no supporting world tour and the label dispute. The album also came out at a bad time for the music industry in general.^[146] The album cost $30 million to record, not including promotional expenditures.^[150]Invincible spawned three singles, "You Rock My World", "Cry" and "Butterflies", the latter without a music video. Jackson alleged in July 2002 that Mottola was a "devil" and a "racist" who did not support his African-American artists, using them merely for his own personal gain.^[146] He charged that Mottola had called his colleague Irv Gotti a "fat nigger".^[151] Sony refused to renew Jackson's contract, and claimed that a $25 million promotional campaign had failed because Jackson refused to tour in the United States.^[150]

Wonder why Michael never planned to tour for "invincible"? I liked the promo he was doing at the start of it all, but the "30th Madison square garden" thing was a fiasco, as was the MTV awards. Remember Mike as the stock exchange LOL and TRL. Add the negative reception for the "you rock my world" video and things just did not start well for Mike. September 11th did not help either of course.

But Sony did definately promote it big and that "you rock my world" video was not cheap LOL. A million for Brando? Paul Hunter was big news then too. (Seems a million years ago that music videos were such big business back then). I still think Sony USA fucked up "HIStory" by not releasing "earth song" in the US, but we have talked about that before LOL, but that decision to seem to spell the end of any decent chart placings for Jackson on the pop charts singles wise in his homeland.

So Sony, to me, did promote the album alot, no question. So Mike had no leg to stand on there. The "cry" budget will never get solved. Lord knows what happened there. But I do remember the album was selling very well (particually in the US where it did 2 platium compared to just 1 in the UK) and Sony just pulling it was very bizarre. I think the racist thing must of done it personally...

thesexofit said:

Talking of charts, "Heal the world" was a big hit in europe (second only to "black or white" I'd say), and probably sold more then "black or white" in the UK as it was no 2 for weeks only thanks to "I will always love you" holding it off (and robbing it over the once coveted UK christmas no. 1 spot), but despite the superbowel performance, it failed on the main chart in the US? Maybe it was too soft for mainstream radio?

It only got to no. 27. Maybe it was too close to "we are the world" to get people buying (remember of course "we are the world" was a no. 1 in the UK, but not half as inpactful as it was in the states).

Apparantly the late cd single release of "jam" hampered sales. Not sure how true that is but no doubt it was clear that the album in general was fading alot quicker then both "bad" and "Thriller" in both the US and UK, and a few of the singles proved it....(though ironically "dangerous" did better in countries outside the US and UK then "thriller" and probably "bad")....

... Luckily Oprah, AMA's, and the superbowl regenerated life for the album (in the US particually) so in the end, it sold about the same as "bad" in the US and still did about 2 million in the UK. Worth noting that "Bad" in the UK has now done 3 million plus but consider "bad" is still just about in the top 10 best selling UK albums EVER, the 2 million it got from "Dangerous" is nothing to scoff at, making that album roughly 10X platinum, compared to the US where it stands around 6 or 7 times platinum).

Theres a misconception that "dangerous" did somewhat worse then "bad" sales wise, but that appears not to be the case at all as they seem to be about even in worldwide sales.

I always wanted to know...how did Dangerous' videos premiere in the UK?

in the US..

Black Or White premiered on Fox after The Simpsons and on MTV (and BET but not sure)

Remember The Time premiered on Fox, MTV, and BET

Give In To Me premiered on ABC during the Oprah interview

how and on what program did they premiere in the UK?

thesexofit said:

Mike could of spoken up about it like George Michael and Prince. But what did he do, he talked about absurd racism claims LOL that were just out of nowhere. Oh Mike.

lol Michael should have written the word 'Slave' across his face? Though, I really don't remember the press for Prince was even really that good at the time either when he was battling it out with WB. Either way, I have never heard of the public taking too well to famous and rich celebrities complaining about their contracts and not getting enough money. It just looks bad in general.

Though, I don't know what actually happened that Mike pulled out the racism card. It might have very well been true, or not. Though, because of the fact that his latest album wasn't selling as much as Thriller, it looks like desperation on his part. In fact, the whole thing looked as if it was desperation, even if it may or may not have been. I don't know the entire story so I really don't think it would be right of me to have an opinion on it.

[Edited 12/2/10 22:20pm]

Yeah..I watched all three of those.. premieres. esp. on Fox cause Fox was the channel to watch at that time. Everybody still watched Oprah back then and to add Michael on there..on tv in awhile. Dang I must;ve been about 15 or 16 yrs old then.

wow

bboy87 said:

thesexofit said:

Talking of charts, "Heal the world" was a big hit in europe (second only to "black or white" I'd say), and probably sold more then "black or white" in the UK as it was no 2 for weeks only thanks to "I will always love you" holding it off (and robbing it over the once coveted UK christmas no. 1 spot), but despite the superbowel performance, it failed on the main chart in the US? Maybe it was too soft for mainstream radio?

It only got to no. 27. Maybe it was too close to "we are the world" to get people buying (remember of course "we are the world" was a no. 1 in the UK, but not half as inpactful as it was in the states).

Apparantly the late cd single release of "jam" hampered sales. Not sure how true that is but no doubt it was clear that the album in general was fading alot quicker then both "bad" and "Thriller" in both the US and UK, and a few of the singles proved it....(though ironically "dangerous" did better in countries outside the US and UK then "thriller" and probably "bad")....

... Luckily Oprah, AMA's, and the superbowl regenerated life for the album (in the US particually) so in the end, it sold about the same as "bad" in the US and still did about 2 million in the UK. Worth noting that "Bad" in the UK has now done 3 million plus but consider "bad" is still just about in the top 10 best selling UK albums EVER, the 2 million it got from "Dangerous" is nothing to scoff at, making that album roughly 10X platinum, compared to the US where it stands around 6 or 7 times platinum).

Theres a misconception that "dangerous" did somewhat worse then "bad" sales wise, but that appears not to be the case at all as they seem to be about even in worldwide sales.

I always wanted to know...how did Dangerous' videos premiere in the UK?

in the US..

Black Or White premiered on Fox after The Simpsons and on MTV (and BET but not sure)

Remember The Time premiered on Fox, MTV, and BET

Give In To Me premiered on ABC during the Oprah interview

how and on what program did they premiere in the UK?

Baring in mind MTV was only launched in europe around 1987 and UK only got satalite tv around 1989/1990, it got a huge premiere on top of the pops on BBC1. Only 4 channels for the vast majority of the nation, so top of the pops was big news back then. Doesn't sound like much, but as I mentioned, the media outlets UK had back then were very minor compared to the US. Infact I bet if europe had MTV during "Thriller" it might of sold even more copies but who knows?

Other then that? Freddie Mercury died around the albums launch I definately remember that. That must of overshadowed it somewhat (as sad as that was). I know we got "who is it" as a proper single release with David Fincher video in 1992, whilt Sony USA released it in 1993 only due to the "Oprah" thing, DESPITE premiering the new "give in to me" video (which was quite a big hit in the UK). A bit strange from Sony USA I thought, abandoning "give in to me" for a belated release of "who is it" (with wrong video to boot). Who knows how well "give in to me" would of done in the states? The slightly grungy look (for a Jackson video) probably would of been in his favour back in 1993.

Of course I remember taping "Dangerous diaries" around my mates house (too poor for MTV LOL). I use to watch that all the time. Did MTV USA show "dangerous diaries"? Thats where I learned Greg Phillingaines is a funny bloke Iam sure you have seen it, and he's the only one who seems to have a sense of humour LOL. Surprise surprise no Jackson interview. Very much of it's time but it's a great period piece for Jackson fans. All those fans in different countries tearing at him LOL. Prefer it to the "bad" tour documentary. Iam sure it's still on youtube. Good times......

thesexofit said:

Swa said:

From wikipedia (sources cited) so take it for what you will.

Invincible was Jackson's first full-length album in six years, and it would be the last album of new material he released while still alive. The release of the album was preceded by a dispute between Jackson and his record label, Sony Music Entertainment. Jackson had expected the licenses to the masters of his albums to revert to him sometime in the early 2000s. Once he had the licenses, he would be able to promote the material however he pleased and he would also be able to keep all the profits. However, due to various clauses in the contract, the revert date turned out to be many years away. Jackson discovered that the attorney who represented him in the deal was also representing Sony.^[142] Jackson was also concerned about the fact that for a number of years, Sony had been pressuring him to sell his share in their music catalog venture. Jackson feared that Sony might have a conflict of interest, since if Jackson's career failed he would have to sell his share of the catalog at a low price.^[146] Jackson sought an early exit from his contract.^[142] Just before the release of Invincible, Jackson informed the head of Sony Music Entertainment, Tommy Mottola, that he was leaving Sony.^[142] As a result, all singles releases, video shootings and promotions concerning the Invincible album were suspended.

In September 2001, two 30th Anniversary concerts were held at Madison Square Garden to mark the singer's 30th year as a solo artist. Jackson appeared onstage alongside his brothers for the first time since 1984. The show also featured performances by Mýa, Usher, Whitney Houston, 'N Sync, Destiny's Child, Monica, Luther Vandross, and Slash, among other artists.^[147] The second of the two shows took place the night before the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.^[148] After 9/11, Jackson helped organize the United We Stand: What More Can I Give benefit concert at RFK Stadium in Washington, D.C. The concert took place on October 21, 2001, and included performances from dozens of major artists, including Jackson, who performed his song "What More Can I Give" as the finale.^[146] Jackson's solo performances were omitted from the televised version of the benefit concert, although he could still be seen singing background vocals. This omission happened because of contractual issues related to the earlier 30th Anniversary concerts: those concerts were boiled down into a two-hour TV special entitled Michael Jackson: 30th Anniversary Celebration: The Solo Years which debuted in November 2001.

In spite of the events preceding its release, Invincible came out in October 2001 to much anticipation. Invincible proved to be a hit, debuting atop the charts in 13 countries and going on to sell approximately 13 million copies worldwide. It received double-platinum certification in the US.^{[96][99][149]} However, the sales for Invincible were lower than those of his previous releases, due in part to a lack of promotion, no supporting world tour and the label dispute. The album also came out at a bad time for the music industry in general.^[146] The album cost $30 million to record, not including promotional expenditures.^[150]Invincible spawned three singles, "You Rock My World", "Cry" and "Butterflies", the latter without a music video. Jackson alleged in July 2002 that Mottola was a "devil" and a "racist" who did not support his African-American artists, using them merely for his own personal gain.^[146] He charged that Mottola had called his colleague Irv Gotti a "fat nigger".^[151] Sony refused to renew Jackson's contract, and claimed that a $25 million promotional campaign had failed because Jackson refused to tour in the United States.^[150]

Wonder why Michael never planned to tour for "invincible"? I liked the promo he was doing at the start of it all, but the "30th Madison square garden" thing was a fiasco, as was the MTV awards. Remember Mike as the stock exchange LOL and TRL. Add the negative reception for the "you rock my world" video and things just did not start well for Mike. September 11th did not help either of course.

But Sony did definately promote it big and that "you rock my world" video was not cheap LOL. A million for Brando? Paul Hunter was big news then too. (Seems a million years ago that music videos were such big business back then). I still think Sony USA fucked up "HIStory" by not releasing "earth song" in the US, but we have talked about that before LOL, but that decision to seem to spell the end of any decent chart placings for Jackson on the pop charts singles wise in his homeland.

So Sony, to me, did promote the album alot, no question. So Mike had no leg to stand on there. The "cry" budget will never get solved. Lord knows what happened there. But I do remember the album was selling very well (particually in the US where it did 2 platium compared to just 1 in the UK) and Sony just pulling it was very bizarre. I think the racist thing must of done it personally...

I remember after Butterflies came out, everything just stopped and this was in December 2001. Heaven Can Wait got to #72 on the R&B singles chart and should've been a single

Sony USA didn't release the singles on CD (I bought a import of YRMW for $9 )

From memory - You Rock My World was rush released. Then when 9/11 happened radio stations in the US started playing Cry as a fitting song for the times. Sony then jumped on it and rush released that.

For someone who knew what he wanted released and not seeing his desires recognised, both these issues pushed MJ's buttons and maybe re-inforced his opinion that he was no longer a priority at Sony.

Of course for Sony being told MJ wouldn't be renewing his contract would have been bitter to them, and I assume they would have done enough to recoup their costs and then not invested any more in it.

It was a mess - and mis-steps by both parties were made. Had someone had their eye on the ball during this time on both camps it could have been a respectable album despite it's obvious flaws.

Unholyalliance said:

thesexofit said:

Mike could of spoken up about it like George Michael and Prince. But what did he do, he talked about absurd racism claims LOL that were just out of nowhere. Oh Mike.

lol Michael should have written the word 'Slave' across his face? Though, I really don't remember the press for Prince was even really that good at the time either when he was battling it out with WB. Either way, I have never heard of the public taking too well to famous and rich celebrities complaining about their contracts and not getting enough money. It just looks bad in general.

Though, I don't know what actually happened that Mike pulled out the racism card. It might have very well been true, or not. Though, because of the fact that his latest album wasn't selling as much as Thriller, it looks like desperation on his part. In fact, the whole thing looked as if it was desperation, even if it may or may not have been. I don't know the entire story so I really don't think it would be right of me to have an opinion on it.

[Edited 12/2/10 22:20pm]

All 3 were in the wrong in my book. Prince was just stupid wanting to release music every 6 months or whatever it was, despite just re-signing a contract with WB. WB stiffed him as apparantly he had to sell alot of albums for himself to see royalties or something like that. Well sorry Prince you have lawyers that was your fault LOL. If you want to release lots of albums, don't sign with majors. I think Prince realized his mistake too late. I bet Warners were as confused as the public were as to why he was doing all that "slave" and name change stuff.

George Michael refused promo for "listen without....", and even didn't appear in videos. Despite that I think Sony still generally forgave him (or so it seemed) until George took them to court LOL. Not a huge fan so can't tell you why George bothered taking Sony to court (and losing). Professional slavery or some cop out? Fair enough he hated his teenibopper image after "faith", but Iam never quite sure why he lashed out at Sony like that? Anyone know?

As for Jackson? The racism claims do seem to be due to Mike's apparant feeling Sony did not promote "invincible" as vigourously as he would of liked. To be fair to Sony, they did. But with the rumour that Mike refused to be in the "cry" video due to budget, it seems that that, and a whole host of other complicated matters compounded things. Lords knows why Mike did what he did....

....maybe it was the conspiracy that Sony wanted Mike to relinquish the rest of the ATV catalogue to them, and by deliberately sabotaging his albums etc... maybe they were? But again why the racism claim then by Mike? And in Sony's defence again, they did promorte "invincible" at first so that doesn't seem to be the case to me at least.

thesexofit said:

bboy87 said:

I always wanted to know...how did Dangerous' videos premiere in the UK?

in the US..

Black Or White premiered on Fox after The Simpsons and on MTV (and BET but not sure)

Remember The Time premiered on Fox, MTV, and BET

Give In To Me premiered on ABC during the Oprah interview

how and on what program did they premiere in the UK?

Baring in mind MTV was only launched in europe around 1987 and UK only got satalite tv around 1989/1990, it got a huge premiere on top of the pops on BBC1. Only 4 channels for the vast majority of the nation, so top of the pops was big news back then. Doesn't sound like much, but as I mentioned, the media outlets UK had back then were very minor compared to the US. Infact I bet if europe had MTV during "Thriller" it might of sold even more copies but who knows?

Other then that? Freddie Mercury died around the albums launch I definately remember that. That must of overshadowed it somewhat (as sad as that was). I know we got "who is it" as a proper single release with David Fincher video in 1992, whilt Sony USA released it in 1993 only due to the "Oprah" thing, DESPITE premiering the new "give in to me" video (which was quite a big hit in the UK). A bit strange from Sony USA I thought, abandoning "give in to me" for a belated release of "who is it" (with wrong video to boot). Who knows how well "give in to me" would of done in the states? The slightly grungy look (for a Jackson video) probably would of been in his favour back in 1993.

Of course I remember taping "Dangerous diaries" around my mates house (too poor for MTV LOL). I use to watch that all the time. Did MTV USA show "dangerous diaries"? Thats where I learned Greg Phillingaines is a funny bloke Iam sure you have seen it, and he's the only one who seems to have a sense of humour LOL. Surprise surprise no Jackson interview. Very much of it's time but it's a great period piece for Jackson fans. All those fans in different countries tearing at him LOL. Prefer it to the "bad" tour documentary. Iam sure it's still on youtube. Good times......

the UK only had 4 channels? when did cable launch over there?

We got the Dangerous Diaries. I think my brothers and I taped it (I had soooo much stuff on VHS from 1991 to 1999 )

Swa said:

From memory - You Rock My World was rush released. Then when 9/11 happened radio stations in the US started playing Cry as a fitting song for the times. Sony then jumped on it and rush released that.

For someone who knew what he wanted released and not seeing his desires recognised, both these issues pushed MJ's buttons and maybe re-inforced his opinion that he was no longer a priority at Sony.

Of course for Sony being told MJ wouldn't be renewing his contract would have been bitter to them, and I assume they would have done enough to recoup their costs and then not invested any more in it.

It was a mess - and mis-steps by both parties were made. Had someone had their eye on the ball during this time on both camps it could have been a respectable album despite it's obvious flaws.

If Mike was pissed at Sony for them not releasing him from his contract until more albums (and thus not getting his masters back from them), then again like Prince and WB, Mike should of read his contract way back in 1990. Mike's contract, like Prince's is vastly complicated. Something like 6 studio albums required in 15 years starting with "dangerous" and a remix album or something? And I know Mike would of included a films deal in there to. Mike hadn't done that plain and simple by 2001 (did "HIStory" count as a double towards it?) and that was Mikes fault Iam afraid. Again I think Mike realized his mistake too late and just lashed out at Sony back then.

Funny how Mike stayed with Sony LOL. Even though Mike apparantly signed with that arab label LOL. I bet Sony must of welcomed that news I think someone had to explain to Michael he was still under Sony's powers and they could do what they wanted. Sad but true

Long term contracts suck LOL. Just look at those old hollywood stars Mike loved so much. They owe you for many years and can do what they want. But Mike got a nice contract (as he should of) and his snails pace of studio albums did him in this instance. No doubt Sony new all along this would happen LOL.

I think I remember reading Mike and Sony made more money off "HIStory" then any of his other albums? All those royalties and the double price tag must of made them a small fortune I guess? That and Mike did his biggest ever tour, earning him even more money.

[Edited 12/2/10 22:59pm]

thesexofit said:

And in Sony's defence again, they did promorte "invincible" at first so that doesn't seem to be the case to me at least.

I don't know think money has anything to do with racism, personally. As long as you make money, you are a commodity and you get your ass kissed so you continue to make money. When you don't make money anymore you are thrown off the side and no one has to kiss your ass anymore. As they say "You're only as good as your last record."

I'm not defending his or Sony's actions by the way. I'm just saying that in the end, it all comes down to one color: green.

In the end, Tommy Mattola was fired so I assume that there was a reason behind that. I doubt he just up and quit.

[Edited 12/2/10 22:59pm]