Harlepolis said:

purplesweat said:

I bet if he went "back to basics", the Org would be all "Do something interesting already!" Like when Beyonce did Single Ladies and everyone here hated it.

My thing is, sincerity stands on its own legs,,,,,,,whether somebody does go back to basics or try something new. Most of these "mainstream" male artists today are hell bent on taking the MJ throne when they don't even have to. Thats why 90% of I what listen to from them comes off very distant and impersonal.

And thats why the film is kinda hit/miss to me too. I like it for what it is though, the songs are nice and the presentation is visually attractive, it reaffirmed to me that Hype Williams has a brilliant pair of eyes, but I'm still not sure what message this film is trying to convey.

Extracting meaning from self indulgence is like squeezing blood from a stone.

In this technological era, it doesn't take much for something to be aesthetically attractive.

It's something be auctioned off as art.

subjectivity aside, art for the sake of it being art, is never art.

Its the same beef i have with the contemporary "avant-garde" movement.

Just because you've named your self an artist, doesn't make your product "art"

Go to NYC and San Francisco galleries and you'll see thousands of interpretations of what Art is suppose to be. It's not art though. Todays artist do what they do because they can, music & film is no different.

A real artist does it because they have to.

It's bubbling inside them and they have to unleash it for better or worse.

When you don't have that.

It's just idle self indulgence.

It's pretty obvious Kanye is doing stuff because he can, not because he has to.

A poignant difference between him and his predecessors

Not going to read the entire thread (nothing personal), but I will comment...

The whole middle section for the track Runaway, with the piano and ballet dancers, is beautiful! I applaud him for that. It's so different than the type of "dancing" and women that most of those guys put in their videos. Also, it actually really works (for me, anyway). I found myself completely engrossed. However, the rest of the movie is kind of silly. And the final shots of her "burning" actually felt woefully underproduced compared to the rest of it.

Not sure why the clean version is all that's out there now. I actually think that's quite annoying. I'm guessing the version here http://kanyewest.com/ is unedited, but it's barely playing right now. It was up all over the place unedited late last night.

EmbattledWarrior said:

Harlepolis said:

My thing is, sincerity stands on its own legs,,,,,,,whether somebody does go back to basics or try something new. Most of these "mainstream" male artists today are hell bent on taking the MJ throne when they don't even have to. Thats why 90% of I what listen to from them comes off very distant and impersonal.

And thats why the film is kinda hit/miss to me too. I like it for what it is though, the songs are nice and the presentation is visually attractive, it reaffirmed to me that Hype Williams has a brilliant pair of eyes, but I'm still not sure what message this film is trying to convey.

Extracting meaning from self indulgence is like squeezing blood from a stone.

In this technological era, it doesn't take much for something to be aesthetically attractive.

It's something be auctioned off as art.

subjectivity aside, art for the sake of it being art, is never art.

Its the same beef i have with the contemporary "avant-garde" movement.

Just because you've named your self an artist, doesn't make your product "art"

Go to NYC and San Francisco galleries and you'll see thousands of interpretations of what Art is suppose to be. It's not art though. Todays artist do what they do because they can, music & film is no different.

A real artist does it because they have to.

It's bubbling inside them and they have to unleash it for better or worse.

When you don't have that.

It's just idle self indulgence.

It's pretty obvious Kanye is doing stuff because he can, not because he has to.

A poignant difference between him and his predecessors

Never had a problem with self indulgence as long as there's a foundation behind it. Miles Davis was supposedly the king of self indulgence, but there was a method to his madness, see(so were many of my fave artists).

I'm glad that in this day & age of generic bullshit, somebody's able to follow his/her own vision as opposed to ride somebody else' bandwagon till the wheels fall off,,,,,,,,the question is, does it stand for something? If so, what is it? If not and its only for the sake of beating MJ's record, then time, money & energy were wasted and this shit will fall between the cracks.

Cerebus said:

Not sure why the clean version is all that's out there now. I actually think that's quite annoying.

Actually, the same youtube channel (KanyeWestVEVO) has:

Runaway (Short version) - 4 min

Runaway (Extended version) - 8 min

Runaway (Clean version Long) - 35 min

Runaway (Long version) - 35 min

And that's just what I noticed when I was looking for the unedited version.

Cinnie said:

Cerebus said:

Not sure why the clean version is all that's out there now. I actually think that's quite annoying.

Actually, the same youtube channel (KanyeWestVEVO) has:

Runaway (Short version) - 4 min

Runaway (Extended version) - 8 min

Runaway (Clean version Long) - 35 min

Runaway (Long version) - 35 min

And that's just what I noticed when I was looking for the unedited version.

Oh. Well shit. I looked for it all over, too, but didn't think to check further on YouTube. Der! I was looking for Vevo, but all I could remember was Vimeo. Tired today. Thanks.

Cerebus said:

Not going to read the entire thread (nothing personal), but I will comment...

The whole middle section for the track Runaway, with the piano and ballet dancers, is beautiful! I applaud him for that. It's so different than the type of "dancing" and women that most of those guys put in their videos. Also, it actually really works (for me, anyway). I found myself completely engrossed. However, the rest of the movie is kind of silly. And the final shots of her "burning" actually felt woefully underproduced compared to the rest of it.

I agree with you 100%.

Ye is the best that ever did it, you mad.

I think the film is symbolic of his own rise to fame and backlash from last year.

Phoenix comes out of nowhere as this blazing explosion = Kanye came out of nowhere as a blazing talent.

Phoenix gets used to the media/a life where she is constantly watched (Kanye staring at her)/attempts to be normal like the animals in the yard/is taken to a beautiful light show = typical rise to fame with media glare, attempting a normal life when the "normal" ppl all want a piece of you, the light show represents the perks of fame.

Phoenix goes to dinner with Kanye, his friends stare and whisper about her, show her general disrespect = the beginning of his backlash due to him being too outspoken and constantly throwing tantrums aka getting too used to his fame, thinking he can just do anything.

A turkey is brought to the table without a thought for the Phoenix sitting right there, she becomes immensely distressed and nobody can take the noise, everyone leaves Kanye sitting there humiliated = Taylor Swift incident and the backlash. Look at the final shot of this scene, everything is a mess, Kanye is alone with the thing that caused her "pain", just like he was forced to face his own actions at the VMAs.

Phoenix wants to leave before she turns to stone, Kanye won't let her = could be representative of when celebrities have had enough or are burning out (She even says she needs to burn) but their devoted fans want them to stay the same forever. She wants to develop and move to the next stage of her life.

Intertwined throughout is the one thing connecting all of these events, the reason for them = the music.

Harlepolis said:

EmbattledWarrior said:

Extracting meaning from self indulgence is like squeezing blood from a stone.

In this technological era, it doesn't take much for something to be aesthetically attractive.

It's something be auctioned off as art.

subjectivity aside, art for the sake of it being art, is never art.

Its the same beef i have with the contemporary "avant-garde" movement.

Just because you've named your self an artist, doesn't make your product "art"

Go to NYC and San Francisco galleries and you'll see thousands of interpretations of what Art is suppose to be. It's not art though. Todays artist do what they do because they can, music & film is no different.

A real artist does it because they have to.

It's bubbling inside them and they have to unleash it for better or worse.

When you don't have that.

It's just idle self indulgence.

It's pretty obvious Kanye is doing stuff because he can, not because he has to.

A poignant difference between him and his predecessors

Never had a problem with self indulgence as long as there's a foundation behind it. Miles Davis was supposedly the king of self indulgence, but there was a method to his madness, see(so were many of my fave artists).

I'm glad that in this day & age of generic bullshit, somebody's able to follow his/her own vision as opposed to ride somebody else' bandwagon till the wheels fall off,,,,,,,,the question is, does it stand for something? If so, what is it? If not and its only for the sake of beating MJ's record, then time, money & energy were wasted and this shit will fall between the cracks.

Miles was self indulgent in his personal life, it really didn't spew into his art though.

But your right, and this vision is pretty damn currupted by record beating

I wish he was only trying to beat Thriller in length, but he had to go longer than Ghosts.

purplesweat said:

I think the film is symbolic of his own rise to fame and backlash from last year.

Phoenix comes out of nowhere as this blazing explosion = Kanye came out of nowhere as a blazing talent.

Phoenix gets used to the media/a life where she is constantly watched (Kanye staring at her)/attempts to be normal like the animals in the yard/is taken to a beautiful light show = typical rise to fame with media glare, attempting a normal life when the "normal" ppl all want a piece of you, the light show represents the perks of fame.

Phoenix goes to dinner with Kanye, his friends stare and whisper about her, show her general disrespect = the beginning of his backlash due to him being too outspoken and constantly throwing tantrums aka getting too used to his fame, thinking he can just do anything.

A turkey is brought to the table without a thought for the Phoenix sitting right there, she becomes immensely distressed and nobody can take the noise, everyone leaves Kanye sitting there humiliated = Taylor Swift incident and the backlash. Look at the final shot of this scene, everything is a mess, Kanye is alone with the thing that caused her "pain", just like he was forced to face his own actions at the VMAs.

Phoenix wants to leave before she turns to stone, Kanye won't let her = could be representative of when celebrities have had enough or are burning out (She even says she needs to burn) but their devoted fans want them to stay the same forever. She wants to develop and move to the next stage of her life.

Intertwined throughout is the one thing connecting all of these events, the reason for them = the music.

deeeep . i gotta watch this again . i was getting ready for work when this was on tv . kanye is a weirdo

I know Kanye made comments about it being longer than Thriller, but Kanye makes a lot of comments that most of us ignore (right? ). I don't really think the "being longer than Thriller" aspect matters all that much. For one thing, the Thriller video was one song, this is like, what? Six? Seven? More? The Runaway portion of the video ISN'T actually longer than Thriller, anyway. And as a whole it's more of a short film than a single video.

[Edited 10/25/10 21:20pm]

Cinnie said:

I wish he was only trying to beat Thriller in length, but he had to go longer than Ghosts.

Bad is 18 minutes

Smooth Criminal is about 35 minutes

Ghosts is 40

Usher's Caught Up video is 15 minutes if I remember correctly

Janet's Rhythm Nation film is about 30 minutes

purplesweat said:

I think the film is symbolic of his own rise to fame and backlash from last year.

Phoenix comes out of nowhere as this blazing explosion = Kanye came out of nowhere as a blazing talent.

Phoenix gets used to the media/a life where she is constantly watched (Kanye staring at her)/attempts to be normal like the animals in the yard/is taken to a beautiful light show = typical rise to fame with media glare, attempting a normal life when the "normal" ppl all want a piece of you, the light show represents the perks of fame.

Phoenix goes to dinner with Kanye, his friends stare and whisper about her, show her general disrespect = the beginning of his backlash due to him being too outspoken and constantly throwing tantrums aka getting too used to his fame, thinking he can just do anything.

A turkey is brought to the table without a thought for the Phoenix sitting right there, she becomes immensely distressed and nobody can take the noise, everyone leaves Kanye sitting there humiliated = Taylor Swift incident and the backlash. Look at the final shot of this scene, everything is a mess, Kanye is alone with the thing that caused her "pain", just like he was forced to face his own actions at the VMAs.

Phoenix wants to leave before she turns to stone, Kanye won't let her = could be representative of when celebrities have had enough or are burning out (She even says she needs to burn) but their devoted fans want them to stay the same forever. She wants to develop and move to the next stage of her life.

Intertwined throughout is the one thing connecting all of these events, the reason for them = the music.

Nice, I always wonder how people come out with thos kind of analysises

Where'd the whole "beating Thriller/Ghosts" come from? I know it did but I haven't read anywhere that that was Kanye's intention in making the film. Kanye loves Michael, I don't think he'd deliberately try to surpass him just for the sake of it.

Cotontige said:

purplesweat said:

I think the film is symbolic of his own rise to fame and backlash from last year.

Phoenix comes out of nowhere as this blazing explosion = Kanye came out of nowhere as a blazing talent.

Phoenix gets used to the media/a life where she is constantly watched (Kanye staring at her)/attempts to be normal like the animals in the yard/is taken to a beautiful light show = typical rise to fame with media glare, attempting a normal life when the "normal" ppl all want a piece of you, the light show represents the perks of fame.

Phoenix goes to dinner with Kanye, his friends stare and whisper about her, show her general disrespect = the beginning of his backlash due to him being too outspoken and constantly throwing tantrums aka getting too used to his fame, thinking he can just do anything.

A turkey is brought to the table without a thought for the Phoenix sitting right there, she becomes immensely distressed and nobody can take the noise, everyone leaves Kanye sitting there humiliated = Taylor Swift incident and the backlash. Look at the final shot of this scene, everything is a mess, Kanye is alone with the thing that caused her "pain", just like he was forced to face his own actions at the VMAs.

Phoenix wants to leave before she turns to stone, Kanye won't let her = could be representative of when celebrities have had enough or are burning out (She even says she needs to burn) but their devoted fans want them to stay the same forever. She wants to develop and move to the next stage of her life.

Intertwined throughout is the one thing connecting all of these events, the reason for them = the music.

Nice, I always wonder how people come out with thos kind of analysises

For me, it wasn't til the "turkey" scene that the (possible) meaning jumped out at me. Also, the few comments I've heard from Kanye himself.

I´m bored even fast forwarding it. I´ll let you know what I think of it when I finish fast forwarding it.

It´s so boring that the only way to watch it is to fast forward it. I wasn´t impressed by anything, not even the music. SO I am either weird, or our "entertainment" standards are really low these days.

Obviously, he´s attempting to beat Mike as it was mentioned before. Of course, you may call me biased, but I´d rather wath any MJ video than this mess (even Cry, cause there was just a simple message of unity expressed by people holding hands. )

And I don´t think that for example only Thriller or Smooth Criminal are the great MJ videos. All of them are breath-taking. To me, watching a fly flying in slow motion was more interesting than all this super special effects put together in this "Short film". Mike couldn´t have captured loneliness better.

I am just not feeling it.

I loved it!... the ballerina's dancing was pretty as hell to watch and differant. I have watched it 3 times but will agree the last part with the Phoenix flying is pretty bad...they needed to CG that scene as if they didn't have the money.

I don't care about the message wasn't looking for it.

DAV123 said:

I loved it!... the ballerina's dancing was pretty as hell to watch and differant. I have watched it 3 times but will agree the last part with the Phoenix flying is pretty bad...they needed to CG that scene as if they didn't have the money.

I don't care about the message wasn't looking for it.

Yes, it was, but ballet is that beautiful in itself. I don´t think that´s something to give him credit for.

dag said:

DAV123 said:

I loved it!... the ballerina's dancing was pretty as hell to watch and differant. I have watched it 3 times but will agree the last part with the Phoenix flying is pretty bad...they needed to CG that scene as if they didn't have the money.

I don't care about the message wasn't looking for it.

Yes, it was, but ballet is that beautiful in itself. I don´t think that´s something to give him credit for.

Not giving him credit for and old art ....it doesn't take much for me to be engrossed by ballerina's or even Alvin Ailey dancers....I like to see the grace and strength all in one motion....to me the way it's slowed down lets you appreciate it even more. I use to dance and I remember wanting to execute every move as gracefull as I could. I like the extension of their arms and legs and the not so traditional movements....it's just beautiful to me.

DAV123 said:

dag said:

Yes, it was, but ballet is that beautiful in itself. I don´t think that´s something to give him credit for.

Not giving him credit for and old art ....it doesn't take much for me to be engrossed by ballerina's or even Alvin Ailey dancers....I like to see the grace and strength all in one motion....to me the way it's slowed down lets you appreciate it even more. I use to dance and I remember wanting to execute every move as gracefull as I could. I like the extension of their arms and legs and the not so traditional movements....it's just beautiful to me.

Yeah, it is to me as well, I am not saying it isn´t. I´d love to be able to dance like that, but I never will. But I don´t care for the video as a whole. I couldn´t even watch it how bored I was.

dag said:

DAV123 said:

Not giving him credit for and old art ....it doesn't take much for me to be engrossed by ballerina's or even Alvin Ailey dancers....I like to see the grace and strength all in one motion....to me the way it's slowed down lets you appreciate it even more. I use to dance and I remember wanting to execute every move as gracefull as I could. I like the extension of their arms and legs and the not so traditional movements....it's just beautiful to me.

Yeah, it is to me as well, I am not saying it isn´t. I´d love to be able to dance like that, but I never will. But I don´t care for the video as a whole. I couldn´t even watch it how bored I was.

Really...I was all in it on my lunch break...I tried not to read to comments here not to sway my judgement....but There are a whole lot of people and ideas I like that have been just burned by my fellow orgers so I tend to not comment at all....well not as much as I want to

DAV123 said:

dag said:

Yeah, it is to me as well, I am not saying it isn´t. I´d love to be able to dance like that, but I never will. But I don´t care for the video as a whole. I couldn´t even watch it how bored I was.

Really...I was all in it on my lunch break...I tried not to read to comments here not to sway my judgement....but There are a whole lot of people and ideas I like that have been just burned by my fellow orgers so I tend to not comment at all....well not as much as I want to

Well, I don´t wanna ruin it for you. Sorry, if I did. I just stated how I felt about it.

bboy87 said:

Cinnie said:

I wish he was only trying to beat Thriller in length, but he had to go longer than Ghosts.

Bad is 18 minutes

Smooth Criminal is about 35 minutes

Ghosts is 40

Usher's Caught Up video is 15 minutes if I remember correctly

Janet's Rhythm Nation film is about 30 minutes

"Runaway" definitely taking me back to the days of maxi VHS and cassingles with the preview snippets.

haters are going to hate, and MJ fans are going to feel insecure for no reason, I liked it, the ballet scene was awesome, the pictures were beautiful and the music was pretty good (and I usually dont like Kanye)

Cotontige said:

haters are going to hate, and MJ fans are going to feel insecure for no reason, I liked it, the ballet scene was awesome, the pictures were beautiful and the music was pretty good (and I usually dont like Kanye)

I am not insecure, i am just bored.

dag said:

Cotontige said:

haters are going to hate, and MJ fans are going to feel insecure for no reason, I liked it, the ballet scene was awesome, the pictures were beautiful and the music was pretty good (and I usually dont like Kanye)

I am not insecure, i am just biased.

Fixed that for you

Cotontige said:

haters are going to hate, and MJ fans are going to feel insecure for no reason, I liked it, the ballet scene was awesome, the pictures were beautiful and the music was pretty good (and I usually dont like Kanye)

So if u did NOT like this piece.......u are a hater?

Graycap23 said:

Cotontige said:

haters are going to hate, and MJ fans are going to feel insecure for no reason, I liked it, the ballet scene was awesome, the pictures were beautiful and the music was pretty good (and I usually dont like Kanye)

So if u did NOT like this piece.......u are a hater?

Yeah that's exactly what I said. Seriously now, if u don't like it, u don't like it ... for each his own but a lot of people are just hating on dude because of his behaviour and his temperament. Im not a Kanye West fan and nobody will never hear me say that he's the new king of pop or some bullshit like that, but he is a successful artist and he has a incredible carreer considering his limited skills (he doesnt sing, doesnt play any traditional instrument, ect).

And, I don't see why people need to say over and over again that he is not MJ, what kind of idiot really think he can achieve what Micheal did ? Mj fan don't have to be afraid, their idol legacy is safe for a couple of decades or more ....