unique said:

come back when you have some facts instead of absolute bullshit

LOL.

How about this? Proof or GTFO. It's that simple really. Guess not though, because you would have done a better job in trying to prove your case rather than resorting to that type of response. :3

Also, about the Eagles Greastest Hits vol 1, I mentioned earlier that the sudden influx of certifications came back between 1993-1995. Here are the RIAA certifications for the Eagles GH vol. and Led Zep's IV:

Eagles Greatest Hits 1971-1975

12x 08/21/1990
14x 12/14/1993
22x 06/05/1995
24x 03/03/1997
25x 01/08/1999
26x 11/10/1999
27x 11/08/2000
28x 11/07/2002
29x 01/30/2006

Led Zeppelin IV

10x 12/11/1990
11x 12/18/1992
16x 01/26/1996
17x 11/25/1997
21x 05/03/1999
22x 11/15/1999
23x 01/30/2006

The bold represent the huge jumps in certifications btwn those years, especially for the Eagles. It's impossible for an album to jump 8 certifications in that kind of time span when their Soundscan sales don't even match that. It's because the RIAA changed their rules back in 1994. This is the criteria that was added:

Club sales and club free goods may be included towards certification. Product shipped to retail, mail order, record clubs, TV marketing and other ancillary markets are combined toward certified sales. All shipments to these accounts must be verified by the label.

It is safe to assume that due to that rule change, which also included free incentives from Music Clubs,probably Columbia Music House, and military sales, that the Eagles GH album was able to shoot up that high at that time. It would just be too weird and highly impossible for that to happen. Maybe some people did buy them from the clubs, or maybe they got them for free. I'm willing to bet more of the latter. Either way, Thriller is about to retake the position as the highest selling album in the US again, if it hasn't already though.

[Edited 9/12/10 20:33pm]

SoulAlive said:

Cinnie said:

Who is buying all those Eagles greatest hits anyway? I don't know any fans of theirs. And a real fan wouldn't be buying a comp anyway.

I'm a huge fan of them

I have their greatest hits that covered the late 70's and The Very Best of The Eagles released in the '90's. A good portion of my music collection are compilations, and I consider myself a "real fan" of lots of artist that I don't own their entire catalog or important releases. I don't see what's the big deal.

nd33 said:

Can this lust be trusted?

I don't know, you tell me.

sosgemini said:

nd33 said:

Can this lust be trusted?

I don't know, you tell me.

Ha I saw that spelling mistake but it was too much effort to edit on my iphone so I let it be.

Nice line as it came out, might have to put it to music!

Unholyalliance said:

unique said:

come back when you have some facts instead of absolute bullshit

LOL.

How about this? Proof or GTFO. It's that simple really. Guess not though, because you would have done a better job in trying to prove your case rather than resorting to that type of response. :3

Also, about the Eagles Greastest Hits vol 1, I mentioned earlier that the sudden influx of certifications came back between 1993-1995. Here are the RIAA certifications for the Eagles GH vol. and Led Zep's IV:

The bold represent the huge jumps in certifications btwn those years, especially for the Eagles. It's impossible for an album to jump 8 certifications in that kind of time span when their Soundscan sales don't even match that. It's because the RIAA changed their rules back in 1994. This is the criteria that was added:

Club sales and club free goods may be included towards certification. Product shipped to retail, mail order, record clubs, TV marketing and other ancillary markets are combined toward certified sales. All shipments to these accounts must be verified by the label.

It is safe to assume that due to that rule change, which also included free incentives from Music Clubs,probably Columbia Music House, and military sales, that the Eagles GH album was able to shoot up that high at that time. It would just be too weird and highly impossible for that to happen. Maybe some people did buy them from the clubs, or maybe they got them for free. I'm willing to bet more of the latter. Either way, Thriller is about to retake the position as the highest selling album in the US again, if it hasn't already though.

[Edited 9/12/10 20:33pm]

ok, so what is your point?

with those record clubs you still ultimately had to pay for the discs, and usually pay more for them than you would in a store, and you usually got to choose what titles you wanted, so either people opted to join the clubs because they wanted an eagles cd or they choose it themselves

what you don't seem to have considered is that when the rules changed, they changed for everyone, thus any free titles or record club titles would count for any release, thus thriller would also benefit from increased recorded sales too

thus at all times everyone was on the same playing field

as to why there would be sudden influx of sales at that time, you don't seem to have considered the CD revolution. the period you mention was when the ledzep remaster series came out, thus the reason sales increased for those type of artists is down to people upgrading hifi systems with cd players and buying their favourite albums on cd. again, thriller was released pre-cd so would benefit from increased sales also

Marrk said:

Four question marks? you claim not to give a shit? okay then. Truth be told,I'm actually quite proud of Michael's acheivement and think it deserves protection from lying bastards.

I thought i was being quite eloquent not racist. But if i'm wrong i apologise to those lying cunts in the media and any other cunt i might have offended.

[Edited 9/12/10 13:58pm]

but that makes no sense. you have no connection with the guy, you had no participation in the making of the albums, so why would you be proud?

and why mention his race in an earlier thread? what has that got to do with anything? of all the artists in the world, i wouldn't consider the one that is most famous for changing skin colour and having severe plastic surgery to remove all signs of his ethnic origin as a good example

what difference does it make what colour anyone is, particularly when it comes to music? can't you just enjoy it for what it is?

and going back to sales, if you include the works of both an individual as a solo artist and member of a band, paul macartney would be the biggest selling artist of all time, adding his sales from the beatles, then wings (the band that the beatles wished they could have been), and then his solo work, such as the sublime frog chorus

did you not consider these things, or did you choose to omit them?

unique said:

and going back to sales, if you include the works of both an individual as a solo artist and member of a band, paul macartney would be the biggest selling artist of all time, adding his sales from the beatles, then wings (the band that the beatles wished they could have been), and then his solo work, such as the sublime frog chorus

did you not consider these things, or did you choose to omit them?

I'll answer what i consider relevant.

You brought that up, not me. I would say i wouldn't lump his sales with Wings into his own sales or that of the beatles or even his duets with MJ for that matter. Seperate entities entirely.

Is there a case for J5 and Jacksons sales to be lumped in with Michaels? not at all. But considering he was lead vocalist and the name 'Jackson' appears in all his band names, there's possibly more of a case for that, him always having been the main focal point of the group. But that would be unfair i think.

dag said:

Cinnie said:

with looooong careers, I'm surprised some people haven't heard of them

I don´t think anyone cares about country music outside of America. You hardly ever to never hear it over here.

Not entirely true. C&W is massively popular in Ireland. I have never understood why this is.

I heard it said (by a DJ on Irish radio I think) that Garth Brooks is the biggest selling artist of all time in Ireland, although I don't believe it and I can't find any evidence to indicate that it's true. I can't imagine him outselling the Beatles, even in Ireland - having said that, Ireland's biggest selling album of all time is David Gray's insipid White Ladder, so, you know, with taste like that, it could be true.

Nevertheless, Mr Brooks is (or was) hugely popular in Ireland as are a lot of Country artists. Ireland has even spawned plenty of it's own C&W artists.

Ever heard of Big Tom?

Well, you possibly haven't, but I guarantee there isn't an Irish person alive who hasn't heard of him (and my mother is one of less than an estimated 5 Irish mothers who don't own a Big Tom album).

AsylumUtopia said:

dag said:

I don´t think anyone cares about country music outside of America. You hardly ever to never hear it over here.

Not entirely true. C&W is massively popular in Ireland. I have never understood why this is.

I heard it said (by a DJ on Irish radio I think) that Garth Brooks is the biggest selling artist of all time in Ireland, although I don't believe it and I can't find any evidence to indicate that it's true. I can't imagine him outselling the Beatles, even in Ireland - having said that, Ireland's biggest selling album of all time is David Gray's insipid White Ladder, so, you know, with taste like that, it could be true.

Nevertheless, Mr Brooks is (or was) hugely popular in Ireland as are a lot of Country artists. Ireland has even spawned plenty of it's own C&W artists.

Ever heard of Big Tom?

Well, you possibly haven't, but I guarantee there isn't an Irish person alive who hasn't heard of him (and my mother is one of less than an estimated 5 Irish mothers who don't own a Big Tom album).

havent heard of big tom...but i knew country was popular in ireland and there are a good older women ?..following here in scotland....what i didnt know was how popular prince was in ireland ?....did you know that prince has had around 25 top ten hits in ireland ???....more than america or the uk....

Marrk said:

unique said:

and going back to sales, if you include the works of both an individual as a solo artist and member of a band, paul macartney would be the biggest selling artist of all time, adding his sales from the beatles, then wings (the band that the beatles wished they could have been), and then his solo work, such as the sublime frog chorus

did you not consider these things, or did you choose to omit them?

I'll answer what i consider relevant.

You brought that up, not me. I would say i wouldn't lump his sales with Wings into his own sales or that of the beatles or even his duets with MJ for that matter. Seperate entities entirely.

Is there a case for J5 and Jacksons sales to be lumped in with Michaels? not at all. But considering he was lead vocalist and the name 'Jackson' appears in all his band names, there's possibly more of a case for that, him always having been the main focal point of the group. But that would be unfair i think.

whether you like it or not, it still makes macca a far bigger selling artist than MJ. and macca had more input in the beatles than MJ did in the jackass 5 or jackasses, as he not only sang, but he wrote the music and played instruments such as bass, guitar, piano and drums, and did the same for both wings and solo records

oh, and macca appeared on thriller, so if that was the worlds biggest selling album of all time, then macca's on that too, and all those thriller sales add in macca's favour, knocking MJ way out the ring and out of the ballpark

so macca destroys MJ in record sales

Stop it! All of this silly arguing about record sales,who sold more,blah blah blah DOES IT REALLY MATTER??!! The Beatles sold millions of records.Michael Jackson sold millions of records.End of story! Sheesh!

unique said:

Marrk said:

I'll answer what i consider relevant.

You brought that up, not me. I would say i wouldn't lump his sales with Wings into his own sales or that of the beatles or even his duets with MJ for that matter. Seperate entities entirely.

Is there a case for J5 and Jacksons sales to be lumped in with Michaels? not at all. But considering he was lead vocalist and the name 'Jackson' appears in all his band names, there's possibly more of a case for that, him always having been the main focal point of the group. But that would be unfair i think.

whether you like it or not, it still makes macca a far bigger selling artist than MJ. and macca had more input in the beatles than MJ did in the jackass 5 or jackasses, as he not only sang, but he wrote the music and played instruments such as bass, guitar, piano and drums, and did the same for both wings and solo records

oh, and macca appeared on thriller, so if that was the worlds biggest selling album of all time, then macca's on that too, and all those thriller sales add in macca's favour, knocking MJ way out the ring and out of the ballpark

so macca destroys MJ in record sales

lay off the crack

blackbob said:

havent heard of big tom...

You're not missing much.

blackbob said:

what i didnt know was how popular prince was in ireland ?....did you know that prince has had around 25 top ten hits in ireland ???

No, I didn't know that, very interesting. Just had a look at the wiki figures. According to that, he's had 27 top ten hits in Ireland, alhough that does include 1999 twice. As well as that there were another 4 that got to nbr 11.

He never got to number one though (aside from Sinéad's cover of course).

3 nbr 2's and 6 nbr 3's. TMBGITW surprisingly only got to nbr 4, I wonder who kept him off the top spot for all those - probably Big Tom, David Gray, Garth Brooks, Daniel O'Donnell, or the fucking Corrs.

I knew he did fairly well over here, but I'd no idea he was quite that popular - as far as singles sales are concerned. Even Arms Of Orion made it to nbr 5.

AsylumUtopia said:

blackbob said:

havent heard of big tom...

You're not missing much.

blackbob said:

what i didnt know was how popular prince was in ireland ?....did you know that prince has had around 25 top ten hits in ireland ???

No, I didn't know that, very interesting. Just had a look at the wiki figures. According to that, he's had 27 top ten hits in Ireland, alhough that does include 1999 twice. As well as that there were another 4 that got to nbr 11.

He never got to number one though (aside from Sinéad's cover of course).

3 nbr 2's and 6 nbr 3's. TMBGITW surprisingly only got to nbr 4, I wonder who kept him off the top spot for all those - probably Big Tom, David Gray, Garth Brooks, Daniel O'Donnell, or the fucking Corrs.

I knew he did fairly well over here, but I'd no idea he was quite that popular - as far as singles sales are concerned. Even Arms Of Orion made it to nbr 5.

yes...ehhh...we will kid on prince wasnt on that... ...wiki doesnt have the irish album lists though...interesting to see them...

Cinnie said:

SoulAlive said:

I'm a huge fan of them

Seriously? No one ever talks about them like they are an ultimate group. I just don't understand why they are on top like that.

I missed the 70s though.

Their songs are true classics.Songs like "Hotel California","One Of These Nights","I Can't Tell You Why" and others are eternal classics.In 1994,they reunited and have been touring ever since,which may be another reason why their Greatest Hits CD continues to sell.

"no one ever talks about them like they are an ultimate group"

Really? To me,they're just as important and respected as Fleetwood Mac.

SoulAlive said:

Cinnie said:

Seriously? No one ever talks about them like they are an ultimate group. I just don't understand why they are on top like that.

I missed the 70s though.

Their songs are true classics.Songs like "Hotel California","One Of These Nights","I Can't Tell You Why" and others are eternal classics.In 1994,they reunited and have been touring ever since,which may be another reason why their Greatest Hits CD continues to sell.

"no one ever talks about them like they are an ultimate group"

Really? To me,they're just as important and respected as Fleetwood Mac.

When people are talking about the greats who changed the face of music, they might mention the other top sellers (Beatles, MJ, etc) but I've never heard someone pipe up and say "OMG Eagles!!!!!" Yknow? Being such a top seller is a very lofty privilege to be in. Anyway I get your point nown comparing them to Fleetwood Mac. Now that group I have heard people actually praise.

Cinnie said:

SoulAlive said:

Their songs are true classics.Songs like "Hotel California","One Of These Nights","I Can't Tell You Why" and others are eternal classics.In 1994,they reunited and have been touring ever since,which may be another reason why their Greatest Hits CD continues to sell.

"no one ever talks about them like they are an ultimate group"

Really? To me,they're just as important and respected as Fleetwood Mac.

When people are talking about the greats who changed the face of music, they might mention the other top sellers (Beatles, MJ, etc) but I've never heard someone pipe up and say "OMG Eagles!!!!!" Yknow? Being such a top seller is a very lofty privilege to be in. Anyway I get your point nown comparing them to Fleetwood Mac. Now that group I have heard people actually praise.

Yeah,I know what you mean.I'm surprised that they don't get me more recognition than they do.

nd33 said:

sosgemini said:

I don't know, you tell me.

Ha I saw that spelling mistake but it was too much effort to edit on my iphone so I let it be.

Nice line as it came out, might have to put it to music!

I thought the same thing.

Cinnie said:

SoulAlive said:

Their songs are true classics.Songs like "Hotel California","One Of These Nights","I Can't Tell You Why" and others are eternal classics.In 1994,they reunited and have been touring ever since,which may be another reason why their Greatest Hits CD continues to sell.

"no one ever talks about them like they are an ultimate group"

Really? To me,they're just as important and respected as Fleetwood Mac.

When people are talking about the greats who changed the face of music, they might mention the other top sellers (Beatles, MJ, etc) but I've never heard someone pipe up and say "OMG Eagles!!!!!" Yknow? Being such a top seller is a very lofty privilege to be in. Anyway I get your point nown comparing them to Fleetwood Mac. Now that group I have heard people actually praise.

the list is full of people who sold shitloads of records but didn't change the face of music. sealion dionne for example, who the fuck would admit to buying one of her records? i did though, just cuz of the prince track on it (which was putrid shit)

going back to the spikes in the sales, as well as coinciding with cd's taking off, i think the ledzep spikes will be from both the initial launch of the albums on cd, and then the remasters, as fans were moaning like fuck about how shit the original cds sounded, and then plant/page/etc oversaw the remasters themselves and then all the fans raved about how they were the best thing since bread was sliced, and they then sold shitloads more as a result. i bought them ALL myself, and i wasn't even a fan before than. i must say they did sound good, and the albums were fucking great too (apart from coda which is shit, it's a contractual obligation made up of outtakes, put together after the drummer died from being swallowed by a whale or something)

with the eagles, they sold shitloads of albums in the 70s, that was the period when people actually bought records, and times were very different as there wasn't as much press and media around, and people didn't build bands up to shoot them down, as the media loves to do now. they made geniunely great music, but then fame got a grip along with the touring and like mac, the drugs took over the band and they created a fucking amazing album whilst fucked up on drugs, hotel california (mac did rumours whilst fucked up on drugs and the band members who were married to each other were having affairs with each other), and then the band split as they all hated each other. in this case no drummers died. the sales spikes seem to coincide with the eagles long reunion, the hell freezes over tour, named because the members said they would only have a reunion if hell frove over. they toured and had a big increase in populartity and sales, partly helped by a MTV unplugged performance, presenting the ancient band the grunge generation

hotel california is considered one of the great albums, and the title track is one of the top 10 or 5 best guitar songs ever. it's one of the greatest guitar solos, twin duelling guitars like freebird

unique said:

Marrk said:

I'll answer what i consider relevant.

You brought that up, not me. I would say i wouldn't lump his sales with Wings into his own sales or that of the beatles or even his duets with MJ for that matter. Seperate entities entirely.

Is there a case for J5 and Jacksons sales to be lumped in with Michaels? not at all. But considering he was lead vocalist and the name 'Jackson' appears in all his band names, there's possibly more of a case for that, him always having been the main focal point of the group. But that would be unfair i think.

whether you like it or not, it still makes macca a far bigger selling artist than MJ. and macca had more input in the beatles than MJ did in the jackass 5 or jackasses, as he not only sang, but he wrote the music and played instruments such as bass, guitar, piano and drums, and did the same for both wings and solo records

oh, and macca appeared on thriller, so if that was the worlds biggest selling album of all time, then macca's on that too, and all those thriller sales add in macca's favour, knocking MJ way out the ring and out of the ballpark

so macca destroys MJ in record sales

Marrk said:

unique said:

whether you like it or not, it still makes macca a far bigger selling artist than MJ. and macca had more input in the beatles than MJ did in the jackass 5 or jackasses, as he not only sang, but he wrote the music and played instruments such as bass, guitar, piano and drums, and did the same for both wings and solo records

oh, and macca appeared on thriller, so if that was the worlds biggest selling album of all time, then macca's on that too, and all those thriller sales add in macca's favour, knocking MJ way out the ring and out of the ballpark

so macca destroys MJ in record sales

you can't answer that can you. at least you deserve credit for not replying with a stupid insult like some fuckwit did earlier

the problem with this thread is too many people are quick to post about a subject they know fuck all about. why go on about a band like the eagles if you know fuck all about them?

unique said:

Marrk said:

you can't answer that can you. at least you deserve credit for not replying with a stupid insult like some fuckwit did earlier

the problem with this thread is too many people are quick to post about a subject they know fuck all about. why go on about a band like the eagles if you know fuck all about them?

I can answer anything put before me, whether i choose to is another matter. Don't you worry about that. I saw the term 'Jackass' in reference to the Jacksons and decided not to. You seemingly fancy yourself as a bit of a clever clogs, but really you're just a bit of a wanker with delusions of grandeur, well, you really don't deserve a response.

But i relented.

I'd love to continue this battle of wits with you, but that'd be unfair as you appear to be unarmed.

[Edited 9/13/10 10:10am]

Marrk said:

unique said:

you can't answer that can you. at least you deserve credit for not replying with a stupid insult like some fuckwit did earlier

the problem with this thread is too many people are quick to post about a subject they know fuck all about. why go on about a band like the eagles if you know fuck all about them?

I can answer anything put before me, whether i choose to is another matter. Don't you worry about that. I saw the term 'Jackass' in reference to the Jacksons and decided not to. You seemingly fancy yourself as a bit of a clever clogs, but really you're just a bit of a wanker with delusions of grandeur, well, you really don't deserve a response.

But i relented.

I'd love to continue this battle of wits with you, but you appear to be unarmed.

[Edited 9/13/10 10:08am]

so you can only respond with insults? that's the sign of a loser

unique said:

Marrk said:

I can answer anything put before me, whether i choose to is another matter. Don't you worry about that. I saw the term 'Jackass' in reference to the Jacksons and decided not to. You seemingly fancy yourself as a bit of a clever clogs, but really you're just a bit of a wanker with delusions of grandeur, well, you really don't deserve a response.

But i relented.

I'd love to continue this battle of wits with you, but you appear to be unarmed.

[Edited 9/13/10 10:08am]

so you can only respond with insults? that's the sign of a loser

Did you not refer to someone as a 'fuckwit' for not liking their answer? Me as a 'loser' for not liking mine? Are these not insults?

like i said, witless.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ic_artists

blackbob said:

AsylumUtopia said:

No, I didn't know that, very interesting. Just had a look at the wiki figures. According to that, he's had 27 top ten hits in Ireland, alhough that does include 1999 twice. As well as that there were another 4 that got to nbr 11.

He never got to number one though (aside from Sinéad's cover of course).

3 nbr 2's and 6 nbr 3's. TMBGITW surprisingly only got to nbr 4, I wonder who kept him off the top spot for all those - probably Big Tom, David Gray, Garth Brooks, Daniel O'Donnell, or the fucking Corrs.

I knew he did fairly well over here, but I'd no idea he was quite that popular - as far as singles sales are concerned. Even Arms Of Orion made it to nbr 5.

yes...ehhh...we will kid on prince wasnt on that... ...wiki doesnt have the irish album lists though...interesting to see them...

Well, given that a list of the top selling singles in Ireland for any of the past 30 years would probably make any music lover weep (and would probably include some if not all of Big Tom, David Gray, Garth Brooks, Daniel O'Donnell, and the fucking Corrs, and probably Boyzone and Westlife too), The Arms Of Orion getting to nbr 5 hardly registers on the embarrasment/wtf scale.

Yes, it would be interesting to see the album lists. I usually consider myself at the very least competent when it comes to using search engines and finding stuff online relatively quickly, but I'm damned if I can find anything even pointing to where I might possibly find any stats on Prince album chart positions in Ireland. There's no shortage of stats for singles, but all I found for albums was the IRMA album chart stats. They only list the top 20 albums for each year, and their stats only go back to 2001, so not worth bothering with.

unique said:

oh, and macca appeared on thriller, so if that was the worlds biggest selling album of all time, then macca's on that too, and all those thriller sales add in macca's favour, knocking MJ way out the ring and out of the ballpark

so macca destroys MJ in record sales

If you're going to attribute sales of Thriller to Paul McCartney then, in the interests of accuracy or pedantry, I can't decide which, you might want to reassign 50% of all Beatles sales since 1984 to Michael Jackson given that he owned the publishing rights (which generally means 50% of the royalties).

AsylumUtopia said:

unique said:

oh, and macca appeared on thriller, so if that was the worlds biggest selling album of all time, then macca's on that too, and all those thriller sales add in macca's favour, knocking MJ way out the ring and out of the ballpark

so macca destroys MJ in record sales

If you're going to attribute sales of Thriller to Paul McCartney then, in the interests of accuracy or pedantry, I can't decide which, you might want to reassign 50% of all Beatles sales since 1984 to Michael Jackson given that he owned the publishing rights (which generally means 50% of the royalties).

no, i'm not saying that at all, and i'm going to give you the credit for knowing that's not what i mean

what i'm saying is that macca sold more records than anyone else, including MJ

what i'm saying is that if you add up all the records he performed on, including those of the beatles, wings, solo and collabs, he is the biggest selling artist

what i'm saying is that by being on thriller, you have to include those sales, and if thriller sold so many copies, then that puts him streets ahead of MJ as the beatles, wings and solo albums of macca sold more than all other records that MJ appeared on

owning publishing rights has fuck all to do with anything, it's an entirely different situation, and one that few but shareholders give a shit about

Marrk said:

unique said:

so you can only respond with insults? that's the sign of a loser

Did you not refer to someone as a 'fuckwit' for not liking their answer? Me as a 'loser' for not liking mine? Are these not insults?

like i said, witless.

that's right, i indirectly referred to a personal insult with another insult, but i didn't insult you, and you responded with a personal insult as you clearly can't reply in a mature or factual manner

and by loser, i meant in the respect of losing the discussion. if you consider that a personal insult, then that's a personal issue you need to resolve yourself. i took you for someone who could bring value to the conversation, rather than someone who relied on making insults when their point was lost, so i must be a wanker for making such a stupid assumption and thinking that a confessed MJ fanatic could participate in a mature conversation. i'll maRRk my card and make sure i don't do such a fucking retarded thing again

unique said:

Marrk said:

Did you not refer to someone as a 'fuckwit' for not liking their answer? Me as a 'loser' for not liking mine? Are these not insults?

like i said, witless.

that's right, i indirectly referred to a personal insult with another insult, but i didn't insult you, and you responded with a personal insult as you clearly can't reply in a mature or factual manner

and by loser, i meant in the respect of losing the discussion. if you consider that a personal insult, then that's a personal issue you need to resolve yourself. i took you for someone who could bring value to the conversation, rather than someone who relied on making insults when their point was lost, so i must be a wanker for making such a stupid assumption and thinking that a confessed MJ fanatic could participate in a mature conversation. i'll maRRk my card and make sure i don't do such a fucking retarded thing again

I'm too old for this nonsense, i really am. I'm walking away from this conversation. I't not about 'winning' a discussion which is open to various viewpoints. It's just been a descent into silliness, mainly instigated by yourself. I was perfectly civil in this conversation early on. You seemingly were intent on dragging it down with the underhand comments. And still are.

Regards anyway..

See you on another thread.