Michael said of Billie Jean:

A musician knows hit material. Everything has to feel in place. It fulfills you and it makes you feel good. That's how I felt about 'Billie Jean'. I knew it was going to be big when I was writing it.

Timmy84 said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

I don't think Q was trying to reject the record, he just didn't want people to think the song was about Billie Jean King...and he didn't like the long intro

I feel like, if Q didn't want the song on the album, he must've felt there was another record that was BETTER than Billie Jean

Possibly so but he probably didn't think the song would make an impact. Michael said "no this song is THE HIT!" Michael had worked on that song for about four years. And he was hell-bent on keeping it. There was a lot of tension between Michael and Quincy during the Thriller sessions.

Timmy84 said:

Michael said of Billie Jean:

A musician knows hit material. Everything has to feel in place. It fulfills you and it makes you feel good. That's how I felt about 'Billie Jean'. I knew it was going to be big when I was writing it.

with all due respect to Michael, maybe he could tell, but history is full of stories of musicians who thought their classics were grade b stuff.

mozfonky said:

Timmy84 said:

with all due respect to Michael, maybe he could tell, but history is full of stories of musicians who thought their classics were grade b stuff.

What did Michael say in his "Thriller" video?

"I'm not like other guys."

OF COURSE other musicians wouldn't have the same feeling that Michael had with his songs, DUH!

I distinctly remember hearing when bad was release, most critics say that as a whole it was a better album than thriller. I've never thought it was even close. There were no songs in the league of Billie Jean or Human Nature or even Beat It and Thriller. How do you guys think it holds up? I thought Bad and The Way You Make Me Feel were great singles and there were some good songs on it but songs like Liberian Girl, Just Good Friends were weak.

mozfonky said:

I distinctly remember hearing when bad was release, most critics say that as a whole it was a better album than thriller. I've never thought it was even close. There were no songs in the league of Billie Jean or Human Nature or even Beat It and Thriller. How do you guys think it holds up? I thought Bad and The Way You Make Me Feel were great singles and there were some good songs on it but songs like Liberian Girl, Just Good Friends were weak.

It holds up very well IMHO.

mozfonky said:

I distinctly remember hearing when bad was release, most critics say that as a whole it was a better album than thriller. I've never thought it was even close. There were no songs in the league of Billie Jean or Human Nature or even Beat It and Thriller. How do you guys think it holds up? I thought Bad and The Way You Make Me Feel were great singles and there were some good songs on it but songs like Liberian Girl, Just Good Friends were weak.

And "Liberian Girl" is FAR from weak.

Timmy84 said:

And "Liberian Girl" is FAR from weak.

seeingvoices12 said:

Timmy84 said:

And "Liberian Girl" is FAR from weak.

vastly underrated

People just don't get that track, I don't know why, that's one of MJ's majestic ballads to me. The vocal backgrounds to it are sick as fuck. I love 'em.

seeingvoices12 said:

Timmy84 said:

And "Liberian Girl" is FAR from weak.

vastly underrated

well, I never much liked it, it's been awhile since i've heard it or the album as a whole. Dirty Diana was just ok. I think History had better songs on it, you know, he was still a great and even better songwriter by then. To hear his stuff on history is to realize he didn't really need a lot of help in the studio. All he needed was musicians who took direction well.

Timmy84 said:

seeingvoices12 said:

vastly underrated

People just don't get that track, I don't know why, that's one of MJ's majestic ballads to me. The vocal backgrounds to it are sick as fuck. I love 'em.

speaking of that, and I don't know if P influenced that but it was obvious that Prince had influenced Michael by that point, the primary pop artist of the era influencing the primary pop phenomenon. The solos and horn parts were minneapolis tinged.

Timmy84 said:

And "Liberian Girl" is FAR from weak.

This was one of the fewer slow songs, even as I kid, I LOVED.

It's beautiful. I didn't think that remark of "Liberian Girl" being

weak would slip by, without remarks, no not here.

Seriously though, I love everything about this song.

And...I love how if you listen closely during the intro

you can hear "Speed Demon" still fading out.

As for how Bad holds up to Thriller, IMO, it holds up quite nicely.

"Dirty Diana" is just as rocking as "Beat It" and something about

"Speed Demon" makes me wanna get in my car and drive 500 MPH

on the highway. Sometimes I'll even play that song and look back as

though I'm being chased in my car. It's such a fun song.

One last mention, I prefer "Just Good Friends" ten times over

"The Girl Is Mine" - simply because I prefer Stevie over Paul any

day of the week.

Timmy84 said:

seeingvoices12 said:

vastly underrated

People just don't get that track, I don't know why, that's one of MJ's majestic ballads to me. The vocal backgrounds to it are sick as fuck. I love 'em.

A timeless classic indeed

The harmonies , vocal backgrounds , chorus are one of a kind

mozfonky said:

Timmy84 said:

People just don't get that track, I don't know why, that's one of MJ's majestic ballads to me. The vocal backgrounds to it are sick as fuck. I love 'em.

speaking of that, and I don't know if P influenced that but it was obvious that Prince had influenced Michael by that point, the primary pop artist of the era influencing the primary pop phenomenon. The solos and horn parts were minneapolis tinged.

Which was inspired by James Brown. James Brown's music inspired them both. Remember that. I saw more James-esque shit on Bad than Prince to be honest.

I just listened to Bad and you could tell Michael's growth as a songwriter and musical composer. He was able to mix funk, rock, hip-hop (some elements have an early new jack/hip-hop flavor to 'em), pop and R&B well in these songs. I do think it holds up.

mozfonky said:

Timmy84 said:

People just don't get that track, I don't know why, that's one of MJ's majestic ballads to me. The vocal backgrounds to it are sick as fuck. I love 'em.

speaking of that, and I don't know if P influenced that but it was obvious that Prince had influenced Michael by that point, the primary pop artist of the era influencing the primary pop phenomenon. The solos and horn parts were minneapolis tinged.

what you're talking about ? I don't see any prince in Liberian Girl

seeingvoices12 said:

mozfonky said:

speaking of that, and I don't know if P influenced that but it was obvious that Prince had influenced Michael by that point, the primary pop artist of the era influencing the primary pop phenomenon. The solos and horn parts were minneapolis tinged.

what you're talking about ? I don't see any prince in Liberian Girl

She was probably thinking of "Bad" and "Speed Demon" but that's not Minneapolis-tinged, and "Dirty Diana" is not a song I would've linked to "Darling Nikki" if you wanna go for the hard rock sound lol the sound was Michael Jackson in 1987 and 1988.

[Edited 9/11/10 13:36pm]

Timmy84 said:

mozfonky said:

speaking of that, and I don't know if P influenced that but it was obvious that Prince had influenced Michael by that point, the primary pop artist of the era influencing the primary pop phenomenon. The solos and horn parts were minneapolis tinged.

Which was inspired by James Brown. James Brown's music inspired them both. Remember that. I saw more James-esque shit on Bad than Prince to be honest.

oh sure, but the full chords of some of the solos and the horns had that unmistakable influence of the little guy. I thought Dirty Diana was a Little Red Corvette knockoff too. It's ok it went both ways I think both recognized that Purple Rain had a chorus somewhat simililar to parts of I'll Be There, which Michael incedentally did that handwaving in concert for. Both influenced and raised each other's game. If you look at Purple Rain shows before the movie came out and some of the rehearsal footage, Prince was desperately trying to catch up with Michael on his dancing, totally ungelled moves which a year or two later finally came together.

seeingvoices12 said:

mozfonky said:

speaking of that, and I don't know if P influenced that but it was obvious that Prince had influenced Michael by that point, the primary pop artist of the era influencing the primary pop phenomenon. The solos and horn parts were minneapolis tinged.

what you're talking about ? I don't see any prince in Liberian Girl

I'm not saying it was, just that the harmonies were very layered like Prince was famous for, not that he in fact did influence it, but no one used his range better than Prince did for harmonizations.

mozfonky said:

I distinctly remember hearing when bad was release, most critics say that as a whole it was a better album than thriller. I've never thought it was even close. There were no songs in the league of Billie Jean or Human Nature or even Beat It and Thriller. How do you guys think it holds up? I thought Bad and The Way You Make Me Feel were great singles and there were some good songs on it but songs like Liberian Girl, Just Good Friends were weak.

Thriller had some good songs, but you can't downplay Man in the Mirror, Smooth Criminal, Liberian Girl, Dirty Diana.... I think the Bad album held up pretty damn well

MyLuv229 said:

mozfonky said:

I distinctly remember hearing when bad was release, most critics say that as a whole it was a better album than thriller. I've never thought it was even close. There were no songs in the league of Billie Jean or Human Nature or even Beat It and Thriller. How do you guys think it holds up? I thought Bad and The Way You Make Me Feel were great singles and there were some good songs on it but songs like Liberian Girl, Just Good Friends were weak.

Thriller had some good songs, but you can't downplay Man in the Mirror, Smooth Criminal, Liberian Girl, Dirty Diana.... I think the Bad album held up pretty damn well

Michael's songwriting, particularly on "Smooth Criminal" and "Dirty Diana" was genius and his interpretation of Siedah Garrett's lyrics on "Man in the Mirror" was also genius to me.

Timmy84 said:

seeingvoices12 said:

what you're talking about ? I don't see any prince in Liberian Girl

She was probably thinking of "Bad" and "Speed Demon" but that's not Minneapolis-tinged, and "Dirty Diana" is not a song I would've linked to "Darling Nikki" if you wanna go for the hard rock sound lol the sound was Michael Jackson in 1987 and 1988.

[Edited 9/11/10 13:36pm]

dead @ some people linking " dirty diana" to " darling nikki" MJ already destroyed the charts with a pure rock track called "beat it" , plus the subject of the song is something came from experience ,and something he has already done before ...."billie jean" ,"heartbreak hotel"

Timmy84 said:

I just listened to Bad and you could tell Michael's growth as a songwriter and musical composer. He was able to mix funk, rock, hip-hop (some elements have an early new jack/hip-hop flavor to 'em), pop and R&B well in these songs. I do think it holds up.

I'm a bit old fashioned, I always liked real instruments over synths and drum machines but that is what they used in that era (largely due to our little buddy). In fact, Michael said in his book that that was a main arguing point between him and Q, that Q didn't believe in everything that was new in technology. Also, I am surprised how no one ever gives him credit for reinventing his own voice, the aggression and edge that he has on Bad and The Way You Make Me Feel is very Little Richard like and no doubt took work to get to that point. I was watching a live performance and he toned it down to save his voice. I think Bad is a great album, just not as good as thriller which I never even thought was good as Off The Wall. Off The Wall sounds so natural and innocent like Elvis' Sun Sessions which most purists regard as his best stuff.

MyLuv229 said:

mozfonky said:

I distinctly remember hearing when bad was release, most critics say that as a whole it was a better album than thriller. I've never thought it was even close. There were no songs in the league of Billie Jean or Human Nature or even Beat It and Thriller. How do you guys think it holds up? I thought Bad and The Way You Make Me Feel were great singles and there were some good songs on it but songs like Liberian Girl, Just Good Friends were weak.

Thriller had some good songs, but you can't downplay Man in the Mirror, Smooth Criminal, Liberian Girl, Dirty Diana.... I think the Bad album held up pretty damn well

But point blank answer me, better than the two preceeding albums??

I may do a review of "Bad" on my blog some time this month.

mozfonky said:

Timmy84 said:

I just listened to Bad and you could tell Michael's growth as a songwriter and musical composer. He was able to mix funk, rock, hip-hop (some elements have an early new jack/hip-hop flavor to 'em), pop and R&B well in these songs. I do think it holds up.

I'm a bit old fashioned, I always liked real instruments over synths and drum machines but that is what they used in that era (largely due to our little buddy). In fact, Michael said in his book that that was a main arguing point between him and Q, that Q didn't believe in everything that was new in technology. Also, I am surprised how no one ever gives him credit for reinventing his own voice, the aggression and edge that he has on Bad and The Way You Make Me Feel is very Little Richard like and no doubt took work to get to that point. I was watching a live performance and he toned it down to save his voice. I think Bad is a great album, just not as good as thriller which I never even thought was good as Off The Wall. Off The Wall sounds so natural and innocent like Elvis' Sun Sessions which most purists regard as his best stuff.

I'm not. I'm a jack of all trades. If it sounds good to me, it sounds good instruments or programming I don't care. Just the way Michael produced "Bad" with Quincy was genius to me. Not too many artists can say that. Especially after "Dangerous" and "HIStory".

The weakest track on Bad is Just Good Friends. That SHOULD have been replaced by Cheater or even Fly Away

[Edited 9/11/10 13:52pm]

Timmy84 said:

mozfonky said:

I'm a bit old fashioned, I always liked real instruments over synths and drum machines but that is what they used in that era (largely due to our little buddy). In fact, Michael said in his book that that was a main arguing point between him and Q, that Q didn't believe in everything that was new in technology. Also, I am surprised how no one ever gives him credit for reinventing his own voice, the aggression and edge that he has on Bad and The Way You Make Me Feel is very Little Richard like and no doubt took work to get to that point. I was watching a live performance and he toned it down to save his voice. I think Bad is a great album, just not as good as thriller which I never even thought was good as Off The Wall. Off The Wall sounds so natural and innocent like Elvis' Sun Sessions which most purists regard as his best stuff.

I'm not. I'm a jack of all trades. If it sounds good to me, it sounds good instruments or programming I don't care. Just the way Michael produced "Bad" with Quincy was genius to me. Not too many artists can say that. Especially after "Dangerous" and "HIStory".

that's you, most people take sound quality into great consideration, I made my album entirely by midi, not because I wanted to but because I only play keys and didn't want to fight and fuss with musicians to get the right music out of them, it sounds horrible, it ruins it for many many people listening to it, I get the "this and this is great but the sounds are awful" response.