purpledoveuk said:

Who put that cat on his head...that's what I want to know

[img:$uid]http://s3.amazonaws.com/findagrave/photos/2002/296/19424_1035509609.jpg[/img:$uid]

(his ghost)

estelle81 said:

I've asked soo many vegetarians/vegans this same exact question a million times and some (not all) of them always give me that same bogus answer about how plants don't have feelings when in reality these individuals obviously haven't talked to a single botanist/biologist/plant farmer or even read into the subject of plants at all.

Please provide credible sources for your claim that plants have feel pain/fear etc. As far as I can tell, it has been researched a few times, but there have been no real positive results.

I think the best overview of the story so far is on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/w...anormal%29 - but if you have more up-to-date conclusive info, please share.

But let's imagine just for a moment you are correct. Are you saying that it's OK to cause suffering to one species just because another species is already suffering?

Last I checked,the same higher being that made dogs/cats/cows/chickens/humans and other physically mobile creatures also made plants and insects.

You checked???

Are you saying that if cruelty has been recommended by someone claiming to write on behalf of a god, then it's OK to do it?

Besides - if you do know your bible you will know that animals were originally created as companions only for humans in the garden of eden - not for food.

What makes plants a lesser lifeform than animals? For that matter, why is it okay to kill roaches and flies but not chickens? Plants require certain amounts of sunlight and air to survive...too much or too little of either can kill a plant just like it can kill an other living being. If you talk to plants, they do grow better. They can be drowned and have been known to seek out light sources by contorting themselves.

A plant has no brain or nervous system so therefore it cannot suffer pain. And I am not claiming that plants are a 'lesser' form of life. They are simply other, different forms of life.

I majored in animal sciences and I had to take biology and botany courses and the things I saw during those classes put no doubt in my mind that plants are just as receptive to pain and fear as animals are. Plants do feel something otherwise they would be like rocks and dirt and never grow; and, then non-meat eaters would really be screwed. Very few creatures can survive on dead flesh (animal or fruit-hence why you don't eat rotten fruits and veggies anymore than you would eat rotten flesh.)

Again legitimate and conclusive sources are required for your assertion that plants feel pain and fear.

And again, even if they do feel that pain and fear, I don't think that's justification for causing pain and fear in other species.

And when you say "non-meat eaters would really be screwed", what you really mean to say is "all humans would really be screwed" don't you? You really don't think "meat-eaters" would survive in a world without plants do you?

You also assume that if there wasn't any plant-based food available vegetarians would immediately die out. Untrue, because then that would be a matter of survival and of course I would eat animals if there was no other option available. But there is, so I don't.

I should also point out that fruit, is actually required - or designed if you prefer - to be eaten.

(http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/pages/fruit-seed-dispersal.htm) "The seeds of many plants are dispersed after passing through the digestive system of animals that have eaten the fleshy fruits."

If people don't want to eat meat because they either don't like the taste or dislike the 'harvesting methods' than more power to them and I respect their choices; but, I like meat and I work with dogs, cats, birds, rodents, reptiles, and have worked with farm animals on several occasions. I wouldn't eat a dog or cat because there are lots of cows, chickens, fish, and other more meaty aninals to eat so it's not really necessary to eat companion animals. I've worked with both cows and chickens and trust me, if they weren't eaten they would start causing more harm than good just like if any living being starts to overpopulate and thus destroy its environment.

If cows and chickens were not killed and consumed, they could not possibly 'overpopulate', because farmers would stop breeding them. They rarely exist in large numbers in the wild.

Anyway, I think we both know which animal is really overpopulating and destroying it's environment.

Just like some individuals can't bear the thought of eating meat, I can't bear the thought of having to choke down some man-made vitamins and nutrients when I can just get it from the original source. How the fuck do I know what they put in some little pill capsule? Vitamins get recalled just like ground beef and spinach do.

Yep, cars get recalled when faulty brakes are discovered as well - I'm not sure of your point here.

A friend of mine got very sick and almost lost her life to her vegan lifestyle because her body needed the nutrients contained in meats and even though she was eating lots of beans, it wasn't enough for her body so she had to give up her vegan diet and she's been fine ever since. I've met people who have become physically ill from eating meat also so it is a two-way street.

She must have been allergic to something or was simply just not eating properly, because there is absolutey NO nutrients found in meat that you can't get elsewhere. If you have been told otherwise - I'm afaid you have been misinformed.

To me, giving up meat is like giving up carbs and anyone who calls me a bad person for my choice is a disrespectful asshole IMO. If animals are being tortured, killed, and wasted, I'm totally opposed to that. I've watched a bull fight and was totally disgusted by what I saw because they tortured that animal and thrilled at it's pain and suffering but what really pissed me off was when I found out that they don't even eat the animal after they massacre it. They just burn them. That's wrong to me.

So it's not the fact that a living thing was tortured and killed in front of your eyes, but the fact it wasn't eaten afterwards that offended you? IMO all torture and unneccessary death is offensive - but we will agree to disagree on that one I'm sure.

Eating a cow that was raised on a farm and killed with all the parts used to their potential, really doesn't offend me because it's life is supporting other lives. It's the circle of life so even if you don't agree with it or really respect it, you still have to accept it.

It's life is most certainly NOT supporting other lives. No-one will die if they stop eating meat, so an attempt to justify your consumption of it with the old 'circle of life' or 'survival' argument is entirely bogus - so no, I don't accept it because it isn't true.

The only justification for anyone - certainly in the western world - to eat meat is because they like the taste and consider the taste worth the pain and suffering that it took for the meat to appear on their plate. There is no other reason that holds water and that's fine - millions of people eat meat - and I'm sure most have no intention of giving it up.

What I take exception to though, is myths and untruths said against vegetarians and vegans. (I'm sure your post was all said in good faith though)

And once again, I apologise for my initial response.

purpledoveuk said:

Who put that cat on his head...that's what I want to know

One of the members of the Smiths?

Timmy84 said:

Please provide credible sources for your claim that plants have feel pain/fear etc. As far as I can tell, it has been researched a few times, but there have been no real positive results.

I think the best overview of the story so far is on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/w...anormal%29 - but if you have more up-to-date conclusive info, please share.

But let's imagine just for a moment you are correct. Are you saying that it's OK to cause suffering to one species just because another species is already suffering?

You checked???

Are you saying that if cruelty has been recommended by someone claiming to write on behalf of a god, then it's OK to do it?

Besides - if you do know your bible you will know that animals were originally created as companions only for humans in the garden of eden - not for food.

A plant has no brain or nervous system so therefore it cannot suffer pain. And I am not claiming that plants are a 'lesser' form of life. They are simply other, different forms of life.

Again legitimate and conclusive sources are required for your assertion that plants feel pain and fear.

And again, even if they do feel that pain and fear, I don't think that's justification for causing pain and fear in other species.

And when you say "non-meat eaters would really be screwed", what you really mean to say is "all humans would really be screwed" don't you? You really don't think "meat-eaters" would survive in a world without plants do you?

You also assume that if there wasn't any plant-based food available vegetarians would immediately die out. Untrue, because then that would be a matter of survival and of course I would eat animals if there was no other option available. But there is, so I don't.

I should also point out that fruit, is actually required - or designed if you prefer - to be eaten.

If cows and chickens were not killed and consumed, they could not possibly 'overpopulate', because farmers would stop breeding them. They rarely exist in large numbers in the wild.

Anyway, I think we both know which animal is really overpopulating and destroying it's environment.

She must have been allergic to something or was simply just not eating properly, because there is absolutey NO nutrients found in meat that you can't get elsewhere. If you have been told otherwise - I'm afaid you have been misinformed.

So it's not the fact that a living thing was tortured and killed in front of your eyes, but the fact it wasn't eaten afterwards that offended you? IMO all torture and unneccessary death is offensive - but we will agree to disagree on that one I'm sure.

It's life is most certainly NOT supporting other lives. No-one will die if they stop eating meat, so an attempt to justify your consumption of it with the old 'circle of life' or 'survival' argument is entirely bogus - so no, I don't accept it because it isn't true.

The only justification for anyone - certainly in the western world - to eat meat is because they like the taste and consider the taste worth the pain and suffering that it took for the meat to appear on their plate. There is no other reason that holds water and that's fine - millions of people eat meat - and I'm sure most have no intention of giving it up.

What I take exception to though, is myths and untruths said against vegetarians and vegans. (I'm sure your post was all said in good faith though)

/\ THIS!!!!

[Edited 9/9/10 17:29pm]

There is no excuse for bigotry and only other bigots excuse bigotry.

BlaqueKnight said:

purpledoveuk said:

BlaqueKnight said:

There is no excuse for bigotry and only other bigots excuse bigotry.

Eh?

If you have a question, just ask it.

UptownCitizen said:

purpledoveuk said:

UptownCitizen said:

If you have a question, just ask it.

I don't understand what the bold means or is referring to

[img:$uid]http://i36.tinypic.com/vhep3q.jpg[/img:$uid]

I completely agree with Morrissey and admire for his outspokeness against animal cruelty (like Prince). It's really disgusting HOW humans treat and degrade other animals. As a species, we are incredibly fortunate to not have to kill everyday. For other animals, it's all about survival. No music, books, or technology to amuse themselves, just REAL life. Humans should be the most compassionate towards other animals. Although I'm not a vegan, I don't eat flesh everyday. And I boycott SeaWorld and The Ringling Bros.

It really is profane to see people who would sooner extend their concept of humanity to animals before extending it to other people and be proud of that bullshit.

BlaqueKnight said:

UptownCitizen said:

It really is profane to see people who would sooner extend their concept of humanity to animals before extending it to other people and be proud of that bullshit.

Yes, I am proud that I do all I can to alleviate suffering and prevent unnecessary death. Why you think that is somehow "profane" is beyond my comprehension.

And why do you think that vegans/vegetarians don't also agree with not killing humans?

Unbelievable!!

What's ass-backwards to me is that his perceived use of "offensive" words are getting more attention than the actual cruelty and suffering he references. i.e. the source and context of his angry comments. Where's the links to the Chinese farm footage in this little media witch hunt?

I get the feeling that should he have called the Taliban a "sub-species" for their treatment of human females it would have been a total non-issue.

Dsoul said:

What's ass-backwards to me is that his perceived use of "offensive" words are getting more attention than the actual cruelty and suffering he references. i.e. the source and context of his angry comments. Where's the links to the Chinese farm footage in this little media witch hunt?

I get the feeling that should he have called the Taliban a "sub-species" for their treatment of human females it would have been a total non-issue.

Or if Americans had been called a subspecies for that matter. people would have been applauding that as the truth...

Would it be racist if he said "Chinese people treat animals horribly." ?

[Edited 9/11/10 13:19pm]

^ All races have treated animals badly. I know, I watch "Animal Planet" daily. I doubt anyone associated with that channel would've thought Morrisey was "brave" for what he's saying. I haven't seen anyone on "Whale Wars" or whoever's doing that show on saving dolphins from being killed using taunts at the Japanese calling them inferior.

I mean you can say that you're mad that some people in China are doing what they're doing but to generalize people in that country and call them subspecies is not right IMHO. He could've handled that much better than he did. Some of y'all may not think he was being racist, and maybe he wasn't, but putting China down as if all of them got down like that is generalizing and generalization of anybody is not right to me.

That's just how I look at it.

[Edited 9/11/10 13:28pm]

TheSkinMechanic said:

estelle81 said:

I've asked soo many vegetarians/vegans this same exact question a million times and some (not all) of them always give me that same bogus answer about how plants don't have feelings when in reality these individuals obviously haven't talked to a single botanist/biologist/plant farmer or even read into the subject of plants at all.

Please provide credible sources for your claim that plants have feel pain/fear etc. As far as I can tell, it has been researched a few times, but there have been no real positive results.

I think the best overview of the story so far is on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/w...anormal%29 - but if you have more up-to-date conclusive info, please share.

But let's imagine just for a moment you are correct. Are you saying that it's OK to cause suffering to one species just because another species is already suffering?

So it's not the fact that a living thing was tortured and killed in front of your eyes, but the fact it wasn't eaten afterwards that offended you? IMO all torture and unneccessary death is offensive - but we will agree to disagree on that one I'm sure.

Eating a cow that was raised on a farm and killed with all the parts used to their potential, really doesn't offend me because it's life is supporting other lives. It's the circle of life so even if you don't agree with it or really respect it, you still have to accept it.

It's life is most certainly NOT supporting other lives. No-one will die if they stop eating meat, so an attempt to justify your consumption of it with the old 'circle of life' or 'survival' argument is entirely bogus - so no, I don't accept it because it isn't true.

The only justification for anyone - certainly in the western world - to eat meat is because they like the taste and consider the taste worth the pain and suffering that it took for the meat to appear on their plate. There is no other reason that holds water and that's fine - millions of people eat meat - and I'm sure most have no intention of giving it up.

What I take exception to though, is myths and untruths said against vegetarians and vegans. (I'm sure your post was all said in good faith though)

And once again, I apologise for my initial response.

Thank you for your response and apology accepted. First, let me apologize to you and all vegans/vegetarians about this statement I made:

Plants do feel something otherwise they would be like rocks and dirt and never grow; and, then non-meat eaters would really be screwed.

You are 100% right that it's not just non-meat eaters who would be screwed because we all need plants to survive on this earth; so my apologies for that spiteful, rude statement. I'm very sorry.

In response to your comments on my post, I don't negate much of what you have posted above; but, I also view much of it to be like my original post: personal opinion. I do strongly agree with you that it's not animal's overpopulation that is ultimately destroying our planet but mankind's; and, it's sad because it's definitely not something that can be easily remedied. I'm not a botanist or a biologist. I only had to take a limited amount of botany and biology courses to get my animal sciences degree because you have to know something about plants in order to know the side effects they can have on those who eat them. All animals eat plants, carnivores included.

Do I believe plants have feelings? Absolutely! Even without scientific evidence, I can still use the eyes in my head to see that they do feel things, ie weather changes and other negative and positive stimuli. Do I believe that plants have 'souls'? That I'm unsure of and leaning more towards a 'no' because unlike animals and people, plants don't really exhibit different personalities from a plant similar to it. A rose is going to be just like the rose sitting next to it; unless, that rose is dying. in which case the other one will probably be following it soon since they share the same root source which is really the major difference between plants and animals in my eyes. One can run away; the other one cannot.

Like animals, I have sympathy when plants are destroyed for no reason, ie burning down rain forests, because why do we need to destroy the rain forests really? But, like eating meat, I see the reality of eating plants. If I don't eat them, than someone or something else will because that is life and reality. Animals don't think twice about eating plants or each other for that matter because after Adam and Eve feel out of God's grace and were evicted from paradise; all the animals that had been living in harmony with one another all started to prey on each other. Since I wasn't there at that time and neither was anyone else posting on this forum, all that stuff that was written in the Bible could totally be like you said:

Are you saying that if cruelty has been recommended by someone claiming to write on behalf of a god, then it's OK to do it?

Besides - if you do know your bible you will know that animals were originally created as companions only for humans in the garden of eden - not for food.

This same book also paints women to be inferior to men at many points in it's pages; refers to God as a 'he'; and, talks vividly of the massacre of Jesus by the hands of his own people. For all we know it could have been the other way around and the 'Garden of Eden' was actually heaven and God (or whatever alias you choose to call it) just kicked them out and they landed on earth unlike Lucifer who went straight to hell. I read this book that stated that Eve wasn't even believed to be the first woman. The first woman was supposedly named Lillith; and, she wasn't made from Adam's rib. She was made the same way he was so she was his equal...to read more on this check out this book: 'Don't Know Much About Mythology' by Kenneth C. Davis. One of my favorite quotes of his from that book was: "One man's religion is another man's mythology." Soo true.

http://www.amazon.com/Don...006019460X

For all I know, earth may just be the space between heaven and hell and when you die you go to one or the other based on the amount of good or bad things you did during your lifetime...but this isn't the section for that and I'm terrified of the P&R section of the Org so I won't be going there to further discuss this so sorry to you for punking out on this issue.

Everything has to die to keep the world functioning properly and maybe many people's major issues with that mentality isn't how something dies but moreso that it died. Personally, I just can't look at death as being a bad thing because it isn't to me. Do I think it's okay to torture and kill animals? I don't think it's okay to torture and kill anything, but toture is such an extreme word to me. The USDA has regulations and guidelines for animal welfare:

http://awic.nal.usda.gov/...ubject=170

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/

Do I believe they adhere strictly to these guidelines 100% of the time? No, because it's naive to believe anything that someone you don't know is telling you; but, that same thing can be thrown the way of those farmers who just grow vegetables and fruits. How do I know what they are doing and they also have to adhere to this organization's rules and regulations? The only safe way to eat anything anymore is to grow your own vegetables and fruits and raise your own livestock. Since I don't have the time, money, or necessary resources for such an endeavor, I have to trust that anyone who produces anything edible (animal or plant) and treats it badly or inhumanely will be prosecuted under the full extent of the law, but there are people who murder innocent children who only serve a few years in prison so you never really know when it comes to legal matters.

Unfortunately, I can't think in an extremist mentality when it comes to animals because I wouldn't be able to do my job. I've seen people do more inhumane acts to their own pets than I've seen video of cattle farmers treating their herds poorly. The things you see when you work at an animal hospital will blow your mind and help you redefine words like 'inhumane' and 'torture'.

There was a case where these people dipped their poor cat in old motor oil because they were told by relatives that it would kill the fleas that were infesting the pet; luckily we were able to save the poor thing by bathing him in Dawn dishwashing liquid.

I've seen a dog that was set on fire because they wanted to make him mean so they could fight him.

I've seen a dog that was chained to a tree for soo long that the chocker chain had grown into her neck. She was severely emaciated and dying from heartworm disease. The only water she had to drink was the rain water that collected in a dirty, rusty bowel in front of her. She would have died had the police not have raided this asshole's house because they got evidence that he had murdered two people...she got adopted by the police officer who saved her life.

I've had a dog who was blind and deaf with no sense of smell, could barely walk; and, couldn't remember anything and I had to watch as his owner's refused to put him down until he came in one day gasping for air.

I had an owner who came home at midnight to her poisoned cat laying comatose in the backyard and instead of her rushing him to an emergency clinic, she just threw him in his carrier and waited 9 hours until we opened. That poor animal had rigor mortis setting in by the time we saw him at 9 that morning because she just left him in his cage trapped in his body and suffering for 9 hours instead of taking him somewhere and ending his pain.

I had to watch a puppy that someone had just thrown out of a moving car window cry in agony because it's skull was completely fractured.

I see real torture and inhumanity in some form everyday I walk into my job and it never gets easy.

Everytime someone comes in with a puppy that they just paid $500 or more for; I just look at them and have to hold my tongue because in my mind these people are the reason dogs in shelters are getting put to sleep due to over-crowding and why puppy mills still exist...but I hold my tongue and give the puppy the best care I can even though inside I just want to slap the shit out of it's owners. You don't want to know how I feel about people who don't spay and neuter their pets. Sorry, but people who buy dogs and don't spay/neuter their pets really shouldn't cry when they watch ASPCA commercials because they're part of the problem; not the solution...sorry, if that's harsh, but that's how I feel.

Death isn't a bad thing in my eyes. I choose to believe that there is something beautiful after this life ends so maybe that's why I don't share the same feelings as those who choose not to eat meat because they see it as cruel to kill living things who are forced to live in controlled settings and if that's what they believe than much respect to them. If people believe that animals have souls, then if they are being tortured and killed, they will go to a place where there is no more pain, suffering, cruelty, and death. I just don't understand why that's a bad thing because life really isn't a fairytale? If animals just died in their sleep or just keeled over and then people ate them would that change opinions on eating meat? If animals were cloned and the clones eaten, would views change?

http://www.geneticsandsoc...php?id=386

http://www.greenfacts.org.../index.htm

Would they?

Honestly, the only problem I have with the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle is the disrespect that some (not all) vegetarians/vegans give to those who don't share their views. I work with a girl who is a vegetarian and she's an absolute sweetheart. The first time she told me that she didn't eat me, I asked her if she was bothered by people who ate meat in front of her because I had brought a turkey sandwich for lunch and didn't want to be rude. She said she didn't care what I ate but that she wasn't going to eat meat. I must have asked her that question everyday that we worked together for at least 2 weeks because I didn't want to offend her and her response was always the same. If she had said yes that it offended her when people at meat in front of her, I would have eaten my lunch in a different area from her. I love all foods, but I eat everything in moderation. I can only eat small amounts of beef and pork and definitely can't eat them everyday but poultry and seafood I totally can and I can't fathom not eating cheese and ice cream, that's just crazy talk to me. The debate on how healthy meat is for you is still just that: a debate. Some say it's bad for you and some say it's good but in moderation.

http://www.organicfacts.n...-pork.html

Below are some Googled articles I found about plants. As much as I want to answer your responses with better documented, hardcore evidence, it's not something that can easily be done because it's still a growing science and much of what I initially said is my own personal opinion. Plus, I don't want anyone to stop believing what they feel is right because there really is nothing wrong with choosing not to eat meat. It's your life and body after all so eat what you want, just don't crucify others for their dietary choices.

http://www.collegian.psu....n_pla.aspx

http://www.environmentalg...tive-flora

http://www.popsci.com/sci...-and-react

I just thought this was a cute story :musy: :

estelle81 said:

TheSkinMechanic said:

You are 100% right that it's not just non-meat eaters who would be screwed because we all need plants to survive on this earth; so my apologies for that spiteful, rude statement. I'm very sorry.

In response to your comments on my post, I don't negate much of what you have posted above; but, I also view much of it to be like my original post: personal opinion. I do strongly agree with you that it's not animal's overpopulation that is ultimately destroying our planet but mankind's; and, it's sad because it's definitely not something that can be easily remedied. I'm not a botanist or a biologist. I only had to take a limited amount of botany and biology courses to get my animal sciences degree because you have to know something about plants in order to know the side effects they can have on those who eat them. All animals eat plants, carnivores included.

Do I believe plants have feelings? Absolutely! Even without scientific evidence, I can still use the eyes in my head to see that they do feel things, ie weather changes and other negative and positive stimuli. Do I believe that plants have 'souls'? That I'm unsure of and leaning more towards a 'no' because unlike animals and people, plants don't really exhibit different personalities from a plant similar to it. A rose is going to be just like the rose sitting next to it; unless, that rose is dying. in which case the other one will probably be following it soon since they share the same root source which is really the major difference between plants and animals in my eyes. One can run away; the other one cannot.

Like animals, I have sympathy when plants are destroyed for no reason, ie burning down rain forests, because why do we need to destroy the rain forests really? But, like eating meat, I see the reality of eating plants. If I don't eat them, than someone or something else will because that is life and reality. Animals don't think twice about eating plants or each other for that matter because after Adam and Eve feel out of God's grace and were evicted from paradise; all the animals that had been living in harmony with one another all started to prey on each other. Since I wasn't there at that time and neither was anyone else posting on this forum, all that stuff that was written in the Bible could totally be like you said:

Are you saying that if cruelty has been recommended by someone claiming to write on behalf of a god, then it's OK to do it?

Besides - if you do know your bible you will know that animals were originally created as companions only for humans in the garden of eden - not for food.

This same book also paints women to be inferior to men at many points in it's pages; refers to God as a 'he'; and, talks vividly of the massacre of Jesus by the hands of his own people. For all we know it could have been the other way around and the 'Garden of Eden' was actually heaven and God (or whatever alias you choose to call it) just kicked them out and they landed on earth unlike Lucifer who went straight to hell. I read this book that stated that Eve wasn't even believed to be the first woman. The first woman was supposedly named Lillith; and, she wasn't made from Adam's rib. She was made the same way he was so she was his equal...to read more on this check out this book: 'Don't Know Much About Mythology' by Kenneth C. Davis. One of my favorite quotes of his from that book was: "One man's religion is another man's mythology." Soo true.

http://www.amazon.com/Don...006019460X

For all I know, earth may just be the space between heaven and hell and when you die you go to one or the other based on the amount of good or bad things you did during your lifetime...but this isn't the section for that and I'm terrified of the P&R section of the Org so I won't be going there to further discuss this so sorry to you for punking out on this issue.

Everything has to die to keep the world functioning properly and maybe many people's major issues with that mentality isn't how something dies but moreso that it died. Personally, I just can't look at death as being a bad thing because it isn't to me. Do I think it's okay to torture and kill animals? I don't think it's okay to torture and kill anything, but toture is such an extreme word to me. The USDA has regulations and guidelines for animal welfare:

http://awic.nal.usda.gov/...ubject=170

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/

Do I believe they adhere strictly to these guidelines 100% of the time? No, because it's naive to believe anything that someone you don't know is telling you; but, that same thing can be thrown the way of those farmers who just grow vegetables and fruits. How do I know what they are doing and they also have to adhere to this organization's rules and regulations? The only safe way to eat anything anymore is to grow your own vegetables and fruits and raise your own livestock. Since I don't have the time, money, or necessary resources for such an endeavor, I have to trust that anyone who produces anything edible (animal or plant) and treats it badly or inhumanely will be prosecuted under the full extent of the law, but there are people who murder innocent children who only serve a few years in prison so you never really know when it comes to legal matters.

Unfortunately, I can't think in an extremist mentality when it comes to animals because I wouldn't be able to do my job. I've seen people do more inhumane acts to their own pets than I've seen video of cattle farmers treating their herds poorly. The things you see when you work at an animal hospital will blow your mind and help you redefine words like 'inhumane' and 'torture'.

There was a case where these people dipped their poor cat in old motor oil because they were told by relatives that it would kill the fleas that were infesting the pet; luckily we were able to save the poor thing by bathing him in Dawn dishwashing liquid.

I've seen a dog that was set on fire because they wanted to make him mean so they could fight him.

I've seen a dog that was chained to a tree for soo long that the chocker chain had grown into her neck. She was severely emaciated and dying from heartworm disease. The only water she had to drink was the rain water that collected in a dirty, rusty bowel in front of her. She would have died had the police not have raided this asshole's house because they got evidence that he had murdered two people...she got adopted by the police officer who saved her life.

I've had a dog who was blind and deaf with no sense of smell, could barely walk; and, couldn't remember anything and I had to watch as his owner's refused to put him down until he came in one day gasping for air.

I had an owner who came home at midnight to her poisoned cat laying comatose in the backyard and instead of her rushing him to an emergency clinic, she just threw him in his carrier and waited 9 hours until we opened. That poor animal had rigor mortis setting in by the time we saw him at 9 that morning because she just left him in his cage trapped in his body and suffering for 9 hours instead of taking him somewhere and ending his pain.

I had to watch a puppy that someone had just thrown out of a moving car window cry in agony because it's skull was completely fractured.

I see real torture and inhumanity in some form everyday I walk into my job and it never gets easy.

Everytime someone comes in with a puppy that they just paid $500 or more for; I just look at them and have to hold my tongue because in my mind these people are the reason dogs in shelters are getting put to sleep due to over-crowding and why puppy mills still exist...but I hold my tongue and give the puppy the best care I can even though inside I just want to slap the shit out of it's owners. You don't want to know how I feel about people who don't spay and neuter their pets. Sorry, but people who buy dogs and don't spay/neuter their pets really shouldn't cry when they watch ASPCA commercials because they're part of the problem; not the solution...sorry, if that's harsh, but that's how I feel.

Death isn't a bad thing in my eyes. I choose to believe that there is something beautiful after this life ends so maybe that's why I don't share the same feelings as those who choose not to eat meat because they see it as cruel to kill living things who are forced to live in controlled settings and if that's what they believe than much respect to them. If people believe that animals have souls, then if they are being tortured and killed, they will go to a place where there is no more pain, suffering, cruelty, and death. I just don't understand why that's a bad thing because life really isn't a fairytale? If animals just died in their sleep or just keeled over and then people ate them would that change opinions on eating meat? If animals were cloned and the clones eaten, would views change?

http://www.geneticsandsoc...php?id=386

http://www.greenfacts.org.../index.htm

Would they?

Honestly, the only problem I have with the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle is the disrespect that some (not all) vegetarians/vegans give to those who don't share their views. I work with a girl who is a vegetarian and she's an absolute sweetheart. The first time she told me that she didn't eat me, I asked her if she was bothered by people who ate meat in front of her because I had brought a turkey sandwich for lunch and didn't want to be rude. She said she didn't care what I ate but that she wasn't going to eat meat. I must have asked her that question everyday that we worked together for at least 2 weeks because I didn't want to offend her and her response was always the same. If she had said yes that it offended her when people at meat in front of her, I would have eaten my lunch in a different area from her. I love all foods, but I eat everything in moderation. I can only eat small amounts of beef and pork and definitely can't eat them everyday but poultry and seafood I totally can and I can't fathom not eating cheese and ice cream, that's just crazy talk to me. The debate on how healthy meat is for you is still just that: a debate. Some say it's bad for you and some say it's good but in moderation.

http://www.organicfacts.n...-pork.html

Below are some Googled articles I found about plants. As much as I want to answer your responses with better documented, hardcore evidence, it's not something that can easily be done because it's still a growing science and much of what I initially said is my own personal opinion. Plus, I don't want anyone to stop believing what they feel is right because there really is nothing wrong with choosing not to eat meat. It's your life and body after all so eat what you want, just don't crucify others for their dietary choices.

http://www.collegian.psu....n_pla.aspx

http://www.environmentalg...tive-flora

http://www.popsci.com/sci...-and-react

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response - I may not agree with some of it - but it was very interesting all the same.