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[img:$uid]http://www.timothywatters.com/blog/uploaded_images/MichaelJackson_Forever_TimothyTeruoWatters_art.jpg[/img:$uid]

Timmy84 said:

Vanilli said:

Yup. I agree with you to a point.

A person doesn't just "get over" being abused or even treated poorly. No matter if it

is physical abuse or emotional abuse, pop culture fad, or devistating abuse, if it registered

on Michael's radar as abuse, it was abuse. If Michael felt like he was abused,

he is going to react and see the world through that lens and well then...he more or less was abused in some way to feel that way about his father at one time or another. (I'm not able

to word what I am wanting to, the right way, but I hope someone can feel what I'm trying

to say with this) I guess the bottom line is, if Joe was a fantasic father, we might not have

The Jackson 5, The Jacksons, Michael Jackson, and Janet Jackson. Michael's mom has said

time and time again she would have been content without the fame, so clearly, Joe was a

driving force for that. Sadly though, it came at the expense of doing some kind of harm to

Michael and other family members along the way. Joe "the driving force - manager"

couldn't be that guy, without also being a little looney tunes, and wanting that

for them A LITTLE too much. (I'm being as generous as I can to Joe right now.)

Given, what Michael said his father did to them growing up in "The Michael Jackson

Tapes" - it makes me sick to think some people compare him to "the everyday father."

If anyone hasn't read that book wants to call Joe the "everyday father" - you

really should read it. I doubt you will be thinking that then.

If you want a little "preview" - watch this. It is heartbreaking and

fascinating all at once. (There are links on the sidebar for the

other clips of that)

When you would look at Michael from a fan-point of view- you would

see someone who was sweet, kind, talented, and also hurt. You could

see he was both fragile and strong as hell. How was he both? He was

able to put all his pain and frusteration with his family, his past, the media

bullshit into his music and dancing. And yet you always knew, for him

to be so talented, and such an "angry dancer" as Fred Astaire called him,

there had to be something behind his eyes we didn't know about. And during

his life-time, when people would care to explore it, it always ended up with

him being labeled a freak. However, when he passed away, for a brief moment,

people seemed to be a bit more understanding. It saddens to me think they

weren't a lot more understanding, but even a little surprised me. We got to see

a window into the context of Michael's life, and it was more heartbreaking then

ever, but also, it made him even stronger -- in death -- knowing what he lived

with for all those years, all the pain, all the hurt, all the media bs, all the abuse,

all of it - and still able to be the MJ his millions of fans appreciated.

I mean that guy above isn't what I'd call a "weak man."

At the end of the day though, without Joe, the world wouldn't have had

Michael Jackson for 50 magical years, and millions of people across the

world (myself included) wouldn't have had someone to look up to that

was a real person.

[Edited 9/5/10 11:55am]

The way Michael was, you can't say he was one-dimensional. And it was clear he used music and dance and art as his own expression to get out whatever anger he was going through at the time. I agree, he wasn't "weak" by no stretch of the imagination. He always was tough. It doubt he would've let Kenny Ortega or anyone talk to him like a dog. Like I said, unless you really know the man, you can't come to a conclusion that he was weak-minded or whatever. You have to really explore why Michael became who he became. It's not as simple as some folks think it was.

But lets not forget, the Michael that became whatever he did become- was a far different Michael than the one in recent years. His reputation was not tarnished by the media and he was far more confident person back then. He was a very powerful force back then abd cab do whatever he wanted to get his way using his power and influence.

After the second allegations, I believe Michael was never the same person again. I don't think 1993 allegations nearly effected to the same level of magnitude that 2005 did, because it was basically the trial of the century for the media to slander him and take his reputation down and this eventually took its toll on him and his self-confidence away. In fact, to me, he become more fragile than ever. I mean imagine what that man went through on a daily basis if people saw him- I kind of wonder if anyone ever called him a pedo up to his face- I mean I'm sure there were a bunch of a-holes that wouldn't be bothered say if they came across him.

[Edited 9/5/10 12:28pm]

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suga10 said:

Quincy and Michael [img:$uid]http://mjjgallery.free.fr/invincible/msg/watw/002.jpg[/img:$uid]

suga10 said:

Quincy and Michael [img:$uid]http://mjjgallery.free.fr/invincible/msg/watw/002.jpg[/img:$uid]

Ouch... That doesn't look good at all

OK, WHAT is going on with Q's backside?

Timmy84 said:

OK, WHAT is going on with Q's backside?

Timmy84 said:

OK, WHAT is going on with Q's backside?

MJ was always nice to wincy clones

MyLuv229 said:

babybugz said:

Because Michaels mind wasn't a mind of a adult at times ..he was off in things.

For example......?

Self-identification with Peter Pan, perhaps?

greatpink said:

suga10 said:

Quincy and Michael [img:$uid]http://mjjgallery.free.fr/invincible/msg/watw/002.jpg[/img:$uid]

Ouch... That doesn't look good at all

i did that a few months ago when i was in a rush, if i was as shy as i used to be it would have killed me, but i just laughed and thanked the guy that told me.

mozfonky said:

greatpink said:

Ouch... That doesn't look good at all

i did that a few months ago when i was in a rush, if i was as shy as i used to be it would have killed me, but i just laughed and thanked the guy that told me.

Are you saying that now you are not so shy as you used to be a few months ago?

[Edited 9/5/10 13:16pm]

Vanilli said:

mozfonky said:

I think you're right about Michael not forgiving his dad. I had problems with my parents for years and years, only recently have I truly gotten over most of that. We say we forgive, but it's not what we say it's what we really feel and do that matters. In fairness to Joe, I don't think he was any worse than a million other black dads out there who were products of their times. I do think the whole abuse crap which got overplayed in the late 80's and 90's created an industry for counselors and books but I think it was just pop psychology. Michael also hung around a spoiled crowd in LA which contributed to some of his viewpoints. But as far as true forgiveness, I don't think people ever really do forgive for the most part, it's a basic human instinct to protect oneself and also, people rarely change core habits, none of us do, it's just too damned hard. Joe was and is what he was.

Yup. I agree with you to a point.

A person doesn't just "get over" being abused or even treated poorly. No matter if it

is physical abuse or emotional abuse, pop culture fad, or devistating abuse, if it registered

on Michael's radar as abuse, it was abuse. If Michael felt like he was abused,

he is going to react and see the world through that lens and well then...he more or less was abused in some way to feel that way about his father at one time or another. (I'm not able

to word what I am wanting to, the right way, but I hope someone can feel what I'm trying

to say with this) I guess the bottom line is, if Joe was a fantasic father, we might not have

The Jackson 5, The Jacksons, Michael Jackson, and Janet Jackson. Michael's mom has said

time and time again she would have been content without the fame, so clearly, Joe was a

driving force for that. Sadly though, it came at the expense of doing some kind of harm to

Michael and other family members along the way. Joe "the driving force - manager"

couldn't be that guy, without also being a little looney tunes, and wanting that

for them A LITTLE too much. (I'm being as generous as I can to Joe right now.)

Given, what Michael said his father did to them growing up in "The Michael Jackson

Tapes" - it makes me sick to think some people compare him to "the everyday father."

If anyone hasn't read that book wants to call Joe the "everyday father" - you

really should read it. I doubt you will be thinking that then.

If you want a little "preview" - watch this. It is heartbreaking and

fascinating all at once. (There are links on the sidebar for the

other clips of that)

When you would look at Michael from a fan-point of view- you would

see someone who was sweet, kind, talented, and also hurt. You could

see he was both fragile and strong as hell. How was he both? He was

able to put all his pain and frusteration with his family, his past, the media

bullshit into his music and dancing. And yet you always knew, for him

to be so talented, and such an "angry dancer" as Fred Astaire called him,

there had to be something behind his eyes we didn't know about. And during

his life-time, when people would care to explore it, it always ended up with

him being labeled a freak. However, when he passed away, for a brief moment,

people seemed to be a bit more understanding. It saddens to me think they

weren't a lot more understanding, but even a little surprised me. We got to see

a window into the context of Michael's life, and it was more heartbreaking then

ever, but also, it made him even stronger -- in death -- knowing what he lived

with for all those years, all the pain, all the hurt, all the media bs, all the abuse,

all of it - and still able to be the MJ his millions of fans appreciated.

I mean that guy above isn't what I'd call a "weak man."

At the end of the day though, without Joe, the world wouldn't have had

Michael Jackson for 50 magical years, and millions of people across the

world (myself included) wouldn't have had someone to look up to that

was a real person.

[Edited 9/5/10 11:55am]

When I say Joe was like a million other black men of the time i'm not kidding. I grew up around a lot of black men, my step dad being the main one. They were hard men, angry, you might say cruel but I just sympathize in a way that most people can't. Black men had it fucking hard back then, no one then or now wants to hear anything about it, but it was true then and although not as bad now, it's still true. My stepdad did awful things but I don't really see him as the main guy anymore, I just see him and us as just puppets of a sick system. My stepdad went through lots of humiliation at the hands of people he and most black people have contempt for, that's not easy as a man. Some of that is going to come out on someone and it did. My bro won't even talk to my stepdad, my ma left him, only I see all of us as just a tiny part of a crazy ass country. So when you look at it like that, I don't see Joe as any different from the mean motherfuckers I grew up around who would say mean shit or beat you. I didn't like those guys very much as a child but I'm glad for having all of them now. So what they are mean, this country ain't exactly for sissies.

greatpink said:

mozfonky said:

i did that a few months ago when i was in a rush, if i was as shy as i used to be it would have killed me, but i just laughed and thanked the guy that told me.

Are you saying that now you are not so shy as you used to be a few months ago?

[Edited 9/5/10 13:16pm]

I'm saying when I was young, I was the shyest guy in the whole world, never talked to girls or anyone else for that matter, another reason I loved Mike and Prince. both very shy, private people.

babybugz said:

It's impossible to focus on the Music with Michael *sighs*

I just wrote about some of that a day ago. Sorry, the man is fascinating, when we speak of Elvis, or Ellington, or Prince, or Michael, it ain't never about just the music. The men are the music, the character which created it all and the character which people responded to.

mozfonky said:

babybugz said:

It's impossible to focus on the Music with Michael *sighs*

I just wrote about some of that a day ago. Sorry, the man is fascinating, when we speak of Elvis, or Ellington, or Prince, or Michael, it ain't never about just the music. The men are the music, the character which created it all and the character which people responded to.

I don't know... sometimes I get bored with going over someone's life. That's just me. I've heard enough of Michael's.

^ Haha classic.

Timmy84 said:

mozfonky said:

I just wrote about some of that a day ago. Sorry, the man is fascinating, when we speak of Elvis, or Ellington, or Prince, or Michael, it ain't never about just the music. The men are the music, the character which created it all and the character which people responded to.

I don't know... sometimes I get bored with going over someone's life. That's just me. I've heard enough of Michael's.

Elvis had lots of fans too, but i am the kind of guy who has got to read every decent book to come out on the man. Everyone i learn something from. It is the uniqueness of the man that makes the music, you cannot get that from just hearing it, not as well anyway. And of course all of them remain a mystery.

Timmy84 said:

mozfonky said:

I just wrote about some of that a day ago. Sorry, the man is fascinating, when we speak of Elvis, or Ellington, or Prince, or Michael, it ain't never about just the music. The men are the music, the character which created it all and the character which people responded to.

I don't know... sometimes I get bored with going over someone's life. That's just me. I've heard enough of Michael's.

mozfonky said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't know... sometimes I get bored with going over someone's life. That's just me. I've heard enough of Michael's.

Elvis had lots of fans too, but i am the kind of guy who has got to read every decent book to come out on the man. Everyone i learn something from. It is the uniqueness of the man that makes the music, you cannot get that from just hearing it, not as well anyway. And of course all of them remain a mystery.

I kinda hate that they wanna get into Elvis' business either. I get the same way when talking about Marvin's life in a way too.

babybugz said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't know... sometimes I get bored with going over someone's life. That's just me. I've heard enough of Michael's.

I been got bored with it , I think because people saying the same things over and over and making therioes etc on it. Nobody here really know Michael if you think about it So I think it's pointless at the end of the day.For the last half of his career it's been about his personal life the man is dead now so can we try and focus on his musical achievements. Can we give him that much smh.

Exactly.

mozfonky said:

greatpink said:

Are you saying that now you are not so shy as you used to be a few months ago?

[Edited 9/5/10 13:16pm]

I'm saying when I was young, I was the shyest guy in the whole world, never talked to girls or anyone else for that matter, another reason I loved Mike and Prince. both very shy, private people.

"I see you" (and you made a few very interesting posts here, indeed)

Now, seriously, there is something in this story of love-hate attitude to Joe from the side of MJ that won't add up - for me.

Yeah, he is a brutal monster with the whip, but the real, deep harm to a child is usually done not through the beating - and Joe appears to me to be too... "straight out" (?) for something like this. Too "stupid", if you wish.

I don't mean sexual abuse, if something; I mean the psychic terror, mental pressure, manipulations and brainwashing - all that things that are much more horrible than any parental beatings and do to kids by far greater damage... Beating alone is usually quickly forgotten

greatpink said:

mozfonky said:

I'm saying when I was young, I was the shyest guy in the whole world, never talked to girls or anyone else for that matter, another reason I loved Mike and Prince. both very shy, private people.

"I see you" (and you made a few very interesting posts here, indeed)

Now, seriously, there is something in this story of love-hate attitude to Joe from the side of MJ that won't add up - for me.

Yeah, he is a brutal monster with the whip, but the real, deep harm to a child is usually done not through the beating - and Joe appears to me to be too... "straight out" (?) for something like this. Too "stupid", if you wish.

I don't mean sexual abuse, if something; I mean the psychic terror, mental pressure, manipulations and brainwashing - all that things that are much more horrible than any parental beatings and do to kids by far greater damage... Beating alone is usually quickly forgotten

I'm just gonna say this and leave this alone and don't look for me to debate but have you guys heard of:

Psychological abuse

Mental abuse

Verbal abuse

----

THAT abuse hurts even more than the hits. Believe me.

[Edited 9/5/10 13:53pm]

babybugz said:

And Trust Me I studied Michael too , his life etc but its tired now to me.

It's been the same old song for, what, 17 years now? And yes I meant even before Michael's death. I've been discussing it at Michael forums, I've been discussing it here, it's tired.