independent and unofficial
Prince fan community
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Music: Non-Prince > Discuss Everything and Anything MJ
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Page 27 of 32 « First<232425262728293031>Last »
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Reply #780 posted 09/03/10 7:03pm

suga10

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h9a7kycTsBsS5YVilTVuapWmQ4JgD9I03OQG0

Michael Jackson's Dad gets Appeal on Estate Case

The hearing will happen on October 6th...

Friday, 3 September 2010

Appeals court sets hearing in Jackson estate case

LOS ANGELES — An appeals court has scheduled a hearing for lawyers for the father of Michael Jackson to argue that he deserves a role in decisions involving his son's multimillion dollar estate.

The Second District Court of Appeal said Thursday the appeal by Joe Jackson would be heard on Oct. 6.

In November, the elder Jackson challenged a ruling by a state judge that the estate would be run by attorney John Branca and music executive and family friend John McClain.

The men had been designated in the singer's 2002 will to administer his estate.

The will omitted Joe Jackson — in effect denying him any stipend or decision-making authority.

"I think it's an important issue for all fathers around the country and around the world that when their child dies they should have a say-so in their child's estate," said attorney Brian Oxman, who represents Joe Jackson.

Attorney Howard Weitzman, who represents the estate, said the administrators were meeting all obligations to the beneficiaries named in the will.

"As I've said before, Mr. Jackson's appeal is not well taken," Weitzman said.

The singer's estate has earned tens of millions of dollars since the singer's death at age 50 in June 2009.

Joe Jackson is also pursuing a federal wrongful death lawsuit against Dr. Conrad Murray, who has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter in the singer's death. Authorities contend Murray, a cardiologist, gave the singer a lethal dose of the anesthetic propofol.

The costs of the wrongful death lawsuit should be paid by Michael Jackson's estate, Oxman said.

The estate is not a party to the lawsuit.

[Edited 9/3/10 19:06pm]

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #781 posted 09/03/10 7:05pm

MyLuv229

avatar

This song always reminds me of the Jackson 5 days. It has that old school melody biggrin Whenever I hear a new song of Michael's, I get sucked right in, have to play it over and over and then take a break from it. That's how I felt with The Way You Love Me when i first heard it years ago

"If you enter this world knowing you are loved and you leave this world knowing the same, then everything that happens in between can be dealt with" - Michael Jackson
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #782 posted 09/03/10 7:15pm

MyLuv229

avatar

suga10 said:

MyLuv229 said:

"LMP+Michael Forever" fan I guess hmm

lol Don't take it the wrong way. I'm not a fan of hers either.

Just checking. Those folks creep me out. They'll slash your throat if you interfere with the LMP+Michael romance story. No lie.

[Edited 9/3/10 19:16pm]

"If you enter this world knowing you are loved and you leave this world knowing the same, then everything that happens in between can be dealt with" - Michael Jackson
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #783 posted 09/03/10 8:08pm

mjwifey4l

avatar

Unholyalliance said:

alphastreet said:

Thriller sales including singles? Yeah right, then why was it in the guiness book and why did it get the award at the World Music Awards? Singles would be a seperate category from album sales.

There's no proof that Thriller sold 100 million copies though. This has been repeated throughout most of the chart sales community, the main voice being a huge fan of Michael Jackson, and including Sony, (that is if those figures are from them). If Thriller sold 100 million copies then that would mean Elvis Presley and The Beatles have achieved 1 billion+ in albums sales and that isn't true, in the least. It's not uncommon for sales to be inflated for the sake of publicity. Though adding single sales would bring the total closer to 100 million as those singles are still part of the Thriller experience.

Either way, whether Thriller sold 70, 85, or 105 million physical copies is inconsequential at this point. Thriller is the only album, ever, to reach way above 50 million in sales. No other album has ever achieved that feat and with the way the music industry is going, there is a high possibility that something like that won't ever be achieved again for a good long while. (At that time maybe Thriller will be way past 100 million.) That's more than enough and I'm pretty certain that MJ couldn't have been happier about that. (Maybe besides all of his albums achieving Thriller's insane numbers. lol)

I think what is more significant is that while The Beatles and Elvis Presley have him beat in terms of actual sales, MJ trumps them when it comes to actual sales p/album. He sells way more p/album than any other act. It's amazing, in itself, that he is actually able to compete with both acts based on the, significantly, smaller amount of albums in his solo catalog. As time goes on and Sony releases way more stuff that current grand total will become, exponentially, bigger. The two aforementioned have him beat, greatly, in terms of single sales, but that's okay. I think it's awesome that people were moved to buy his albums rather than just the singles throughout his solo career. It seems that he really ushered in an era of strong album sales for everyone back in the 80s & 90s. Though, with the advent of the internet it seems to be going back to a single era. Yet, June 25th, 2009 still proved that people will still buy albums as also proving that people still rely on traditional media for their news.

[Edited 9/2/10 17:08pm]

thriller (the album) has sold over 110 million copies NOT INCLUDING SINGLES.... he even recieved a diamond award in 2006 at the world music awards for sales of thriller surpassing 104 million copies. alot of ppl cant believe that ONE ALBUM can sale so many copies without singles sales being included or that the amount is being greatly exaggerated. probably becuz no other album in history has even come close. and if you look the total revenue that THRILLER has raked since its release in its surpasses $4 BILLION. (and no its not a typo i DID say BILLION nod )
“The only male singer who I’ve seen besides myself and who’s better than me – that is Michael Jackson.” – Frank Sinatra
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #784 posted 09/03/10 8:12pm

babybugz

avatar

MyLuv229 said:

This song always reminds me of the Jackson 5 days. It has that old school melody biggrin Whenever I hear a new song of Michael's, I get sucked right in, have to play it over and over and then take a break from it. That's how I felt with The Way You Love Me when i first heard it years ago

That song could have easily been on any of the Jackson albums. That song is very Jackson5/Jacksons.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #785 posted 09/03/10 8:32pm

bboy87

avatar

After a remark I read in Music And More, I'm gonna go out of my realm of talking just about the music to post these following articles

Although I disagree with Charles Thomson on a couple of different issues, I strongly reccomend his articles on Michael's 1993 and 2005 trials

Saturday, 2 January 2010
FBI File Reveals Attempt to Convict Jackson with racist law

Documents contained in Michael Jackson's FBI file show that the LAPD tried to prosecute the star under the same legislation used in the past to smear black luminaries such as Jack Johnson and Chuck Berry.

Records show that the LAPD contacted the FBI on 7th September 1993 to ask whether the bureau would assist in the prosecution of Michael Jackson under the Mann Act.


The Mann Act, also known as the 'White Slavery Act', was introduced in 1910. Allowing officers to make arrests on the vague premise of 'immoral behaviour', the law was frequently used to smear black men, particularly those who consorted with white women.

Jack Johnson, the world's first black Heavyweight Boxing Champion, was the first person to be prosecuted under the act. In fact, Geoffrey C Ward writes in his book 'Unforgivable Blackness' that the potential to smear Johnson had been one of the primary motivating factors behind the introduction of the law.

Johnson was viewed by the press and the establishment as a black man who didn't know his place. Not only was Johnson a black world champion more than 50 years before segregation was lifted, but he flaunted his success in a society which demanded that he be humble. He wore expensive clothes and jewellery and invested his money in a fleet of luxurious automobiles, a hobby for which he was repeatedly punished by white policemen who issued him with undeserved speeding tickets.

But what riled the establishment more than anything was that Johnson consorted with white women. Johnson was often accompanied on his travels by prostitutes, but so were the majority of his white contemporaries.

In 1913 Johnson was prosecuted under the Mann Act for 'transporting a female across the state line for immoral purposes'. None of his white contemporaries who also travelled with prostitutes were arrested or charged with similar crimes.

Johnson's alleged victims had travelled with him willingly and admitted it under oath. Moreover, the trips in question had taken place long before the Mann Act was even introduced. However, an all white jury convicted him regardless.

Years later the Mann Act was also used to sabotage the career of black musician Chuck Berry.

In 1959 Berry met a 14 year old waitress in El Paso and asked her to work as a hat-check girl in his restaurant. The girl agreed and he drove her from El Paso to St Louis on his way back from a concert.

On this flimsy premise Berry was arrested for 'transporting an underage girl for immoral purposes'. He was convicted under the Mann Act and sentenced to three years in prison.

In the same year Berry's white copycat Elvis Presley began openly dating Priscilla Beaulieu, a 14 year old girl. Furthermore, Scotty Moore's biography of Presley asserts that prior to his involvement with Beaulieu, the star had been dating an even younger girl.

Ergo, in 1913 the Mann Act was used to convict a black boxer whose only 'crime' was to indulge in the same behaviour as his white conemporaries. Later, In 1959, the Mann Act was used to prosecute a black musician for giving a job to an underage girl, while his white contemporary repeatedly slept with underage girls and went unpunished.

The Mann Act is an inherently r@#%$ law. Whilst it has not been used solely to prosecute African-Americans, the potential imprisonment of Jack Johnson was a primary motivating factor behind its introduction and since then it has been repeatedly used to convict black men of crimes that they didn't commit.

That Jackson was also targeted under the Mann Act is certainly intriguing and only strengthens the argument that he was targeted by a malicious prosecution on account of his race. In a way, it shows that little has changed since the days of Jack Johnson. The United States Attorney's decision not to prosecute Jackson under the Mann Act could be seen as a sign of progress, but the LAPD's decision to pursue Jackson in the first place - given the sheer abundance of evidence suggesting his innocence - remains disturbing.

That Jackson wasn't railroaded once he entered the courtroom is another indicator of progress. Of course, that the 2003 allegations against Jackson even made it into a courtroom was proof in itself that Jackson was given a bum rap - the allegations were nonsensical and his accusers were proven con artists - but while Johnson was found guilty of crimes that he patently did not commit, Jackson's jury at least made the right decision.

In Jackson's case it was only the media which tarred him as guilty.

"We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #786 posted 09/03/10 8:40pm

bboy87

avatar

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charles-thomson/one-of-the-most-shameful_b_610258.html

One of the Most Shameful Episodes In Journalistic History



It was five years ago today that twelve jurors unanimously acquitted Michael Jackson on various charges of child molestation, conspiracy and providing alcohol to a minor. It is difficult to know how history will remember the Michael Jackson trial. Perhaps as the epitome of western celebrity obsession. Perhaps as a 21st century lynching. Personally, I think it will be remembered as one of the most shameful episodes in journalistic history.

It's not until you find yourself digging through newspaper archives and re-watching hours of TV coverage that you truly understand the magnitude of the media's failings. It was industry-wide. No doubt, there were certain reporters and even certain publications and TV stations that overtly favored the prosecution, but many of the media's shortcomings were institutional. In a media obsessed with soundbites, how to you reduce eight hours of testimony into two sentences and remain accurate? In an era of rolling news and instant blogging, how do you resist the temptation to dash out of the courtroom at the earliest opportunity to break news of the latest salacious allegations, even if it means missing a slice of the day's testimony?

Looking back on the Michael Jackson trial, I see a media out of control. The sheer amount of propaganda, bias, distortion and misinformation is almost beyond comprehension. Reading the court transcripts and comparing them to the newspaper cuttings, the trial that was relayed to us didn't even resemble the trial that was going on inside the courtroom. The transcripts show an endless parade of seedy prosecution witnesses perjuring themselves on an almost hourly basis and crumbling under cross examination. The newspaper cuttings and the TV news clips detail day after day of heinous accusations and lurid innuendo.

It was November 18th 2003 when 70 sheriffs swooped on Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch. As soon as news of the raid broke, news channels abandoned their schedules and switched to 24 hour coverage. When it emerged that Jackson was accused of molesting young cancer survivor Gavin Arvizo, the boy who famously held the singer's hand in Martin Bashir's 'Living With Michael Jackson', the media went into overdrive. Networks were so obsessed by the Jackson scandal that a terrorist attack in Turkey went almost entirely unreported, with only CNN bothering to broadcast George Bush and Tony Blair's joint press conference about the disaster.

All three major networks immediately set about producing hour-long specials on the Jackson case, apparently undeterred by the fact that nothing was yet known about the allegations and prosecutors weren't answering questions. CBS dedicated an episode of 48 Hours Investigates to the arrest, while NBC's Dateline and ABC's 20/20 also rushed out Jackson specials. Within two days of the Neverland raid, and before Jackson had even been arrested, VH1 announced a half-hour documentary called 'Michael Jackson Sex Scandal'.

Daily Variety described the Jackson story as "a godsend for... media outlets, particularly cable news channels and local stations looking to pump up Nielsen numbers in the final week of the all-important November sweeps."

Daily Variety was right. Celebrity-oriented news shows saw figures spike when the Jackson story hit. Viewing figures for Access Hollywood were up 10% on the previous week. Entertainment Tonight and Extra both achieved season best audience numbers and Celebrity Justice also enjoyed an 8% rise.

Newspapers reacted just as hysterically as TV stations. 'Sicko!' shrieked the New York Daily News. 'Jackson: Now Get Out Of This One' goaded the New York Post.

The Sun - Britain's biggest newspaper - ran an article titled 'He's Bad, He's Dangerous, He's History'. The piece branded Jackson an 'ex-black ex-superstar', a 'freak' and a 'twisted individual' and called for his children to be taken into care. "If he weren't a pop idol with piles of cash to hide behind," it said, "he would have been picked up years ago."

Encouraged by the audience boosts the Jackson scandal had produced, media outlets made it their mission to milk the case for all that they could. Entertainment Weekly's Tom Sinclair wrote, "Media mavens, from the tackiest tabloid reporter to the nattiest network news anchor, are in overdrive scrambling to fill column inches and airtime with Jackson scoops and talking heads."

"Pressure on news people is enormous," attorney Harland Braun told Sinclair. "So lawyers you've never heard of wind up on television talking about cases that they have no connection to."

Sinclair added, "And not just lawyers. Everyone from doctors, writers, and psychiatrists to convenience-store clerks who once waited on Jackson are weighing in on TV and in print."

While the media was busy badgering a host of quacks and distant acquaintances for their views on the scandal, the team of prosecutors behind the latest Jackson case was engaging in some highly questionable behavior - but the media didn't seem to care.

During the Neverland raid District Attorney Tom Sneddon - the prosecutor who unsuccessfully pursued Jackson in 1993 - and his officers breached the terms of their own search warrant by entering Jackson's office and seizing hoards of irrelevant business papers. They also illegally raided the office of a PI working for Jackson's defense team and lifted defense documents from the home of the singer's personal assistant.

Sneddon also appeared to be tampering with fundamental elements of his case whenever evidence came to light which undermined the Arvizo family's claims. For instance, when the DA found out about two taped interviews in which the entire Arvizo family sang Jackson's praises and denied any abuse, he introduced a conspiracy charge and claimed they'd been forced to lie against their will.

In a similar instance, Jackson's lawyer Mark Geragos appeared on NBC in January 2004 and announced that the singer had a 'concrete, iron-clad alibi' for the dates on the charge sheet. By the time Jackson was re-arraigned in April for the conspiracy charge, the molestation dates on the rap sheet had been shifted by almost two weeks.

Sneddon was later caught seemingly trying to plant fingerprint evidence against Jackson, allowing accuser Gavin Arvizo to handle adult magazines during the grand jury hearings, then bagging them up and sending them away for fingerprint analysis.

Not only did the majority of the media overlook this flurry of questionable and occasionally illegal activity on the part of the prosecution, it also seemed perfectly content to perpetuate damning propaganda on the prosecution's behalf, despite a complete lack of corroborative evidence. For example, Diane Dimond appeared on Larry King Live days after Jackson's arrest and spoke repeatedly about a 'stack of love letters' the star had supposedly written to Gavin Arvizo.

"Does anyone here... know of the existence of these letters?" asked King.

"Absolutely," Dimond replied. "I do. I absolutely know of their existence!"

"Diane, have you read them?"

"No, I have not read them."

Dimond admitted that she'd never even seen the letters, let alone read them, but said she knew about them from "high law enforcement sources". But those love letters never materialized. When Dimond said she 'absolutely knew' of their existence she was basing her comments solely on the words of police sources. At best, the police sources were parroting the Arvizos' allegations in good faith. At worst, they'd concocted the story themselves to sully Jackson's name. Either way, the story went around the world with not a shred of evidence to support it.

It was over a year between Jackson's arrest and the beginning of his trial and the media was forced to try to pad the story out for as long as they could in the interim. Aware that Jackson was bound by gag order and therefore powerless to respond, prosecution sympathizers started leaking documents such as Jordan Chandler's 1993 police statement. The media, hungry for scandal and sensationalism, pounced on them.

At the same time, allegations sold to tabloid TV shows by disgruntled ex-employees in the 1990s were constantly re-hashed and presented as news. Small details of the Arvizo family's allegations would also periodically leak.

While most media outlets reported these stories as allegations rather than facts, the sheer amount and frequency of stories connecting Jackson to ugly sexual abuse, coupled with his inability to refute them, had a devastating effect on the star's public image.

The trial began in early 2005 with jury selection. Asked by NBC about prosecution and defense jury selection tactics, Dimond said the difference was that prosecutors would be looking for jurors who had a sense of 'good versus evil' and 'right and wrong'.

No sooner had the jurors been selected than Newsweek was trying to undermine them, claiming that a middle class jury would be unable to fairly judge a family of lower class accusers. In an article titled 'Playing the Class Card' the magazine said, "The Jackson trial may hinge on something other than race. And we don't mean the evidence."

As the trial kicked into gear, it became quickly apparent that the case was full of holes. The prosecution's only 'evidence' was a stack of heterosexual porn magazines and a couple of legal art books. Thomas Mesereau wrote in a court motion, "The effort to try Mr. Jackson for having one of the largest private libraries in the world is alarming. Not since the dark day of almost three quarters of a century ago has anyone witnessed a prosecution which claimed that the possession of books by well known artists were evidence of a crime against the state."

Gavin Arvizo's brother, Star, took the stand early in the trial and claimed to have witnessed two specific acts of molestation but his testimony was completely inconsistent. Regarding one alleged act, he claimed in court that Jackson had been fondling Gavin, but in a previous description of the same incident he told a wildly different story, claiming Jackson had been rubbing his penis against Gavin's buttocks. He also told two different stories about the other alleged act on two consecutive days in court.

During cross examination Jackson's lawyer, Thomas Mesereau, showed the boy a copy of Barely Legal and repeatedly asked if it was the specific edition Jackson had shown him and his brother. The boy insisted that it was, only for Mesereau to reveal that it was published in August 2003; five months after the Arvizo family had left Neverland.

But this information went almost entirely unreported, the media focusing on the boy's allegations rather than the cross examination which undermined them. Allegations make good soundbites. Complex cross examination does not.

When Gavin Arvizo took the stand, he claimed that Jackson had instigated the first act of molestation by telling him that all boys had to masturbate or else they would turn into rapists. But Mesereau showed under cross examination that the boy had previously admitted his grandmother made that comment, not Jackson, meaning that the whole molestation story was predicated on a lie.

Under cross examination the boy severely undermined the prosecution's conspiracy charge by claiming he'd never felt afraid at Neverland and he'd never wanted to leave. His accounts of the alleged molestation also differed from his brother's.

Unfortunately for Jackson, Gavin Arvizo's cross examination was all but ignored as newspapers giggled and gossiped about what became known as 'pajama day'. On the first day of the boy's direct examination Jackson slipped in his shower, bruised his lung and was rushed to hospital. When Judge Rodney Melville ordered a bench warrant for Jackson's arrest unless he arrived within an hour, the singer sped to the courthouse in the pajama trousers he'd been wearing when he was rushed to hospital.

The photographs of Jackson in his pajamas went all over the word, often with no mention of Jackson's injury or the reason he was wearing them. Many journalists accused Jackson of faking the entire event in order to gain sympathy, although sympathetic is the last word you'd use to describe the media's reaction.

The incident didn't stop the media from sending Gavin Arvizo's lurid allegations around the world the following day. Some outlets even ran the boy's testimony as fact rather than conjecture. "He Said If Boys Don't Do It They Might Turn Into Rapists - Cancer Boy Gavin Tells Court of Jackson Sex," wrote The Mirror.

But the boy's cross examination was another story. It went almost completely unreported. Instead of stories about Gavin Arvizo's lies and the two brothers' contradictory allegations, newspaper pages were filled with snarky opinion pieces about Jackson's pajamas, even though 'pajama day' had been days previously. Thousands of words were dedicated to whether or not Jackson wore a wig and the Sun even ran an article attacking Jackson for the accessories he pinned to his waistcoats every day. It seemed like the press would write anything to avoid discussing the boy's cross examination, which severely undermined the prosecution's case.

This habit of reporting lurid allegations but ignoring the cross examination which discredited them became a distinct trend throughout Jackson's trial. In an April 2005 interview with Matt Drudge, Fox columnist Roger Friedman explained, "What's not reported is that the cross examination of these witnesses is usually fatal to them." He added that whenever anybody said anything salacious or dramatic about Jackson, the media 'went running outside to report on it' and missed the subsequent cross examination.

Drudge agreed, adding, "You're not hearing how witness after witness is disintegrating on the stand. There is not one witness, at least lately, that hasn't admitted to perjuring themselves in previous proceedings either in this case or in some other case."

This alarming trend of ignoring cross examination was perhaps most apparent in the media's coverage of Kiki Fournier's testimony. Under direct examination by the prosecution, Fournier - a Neverland housekeeper - testified that when at Neverland children often became unruly and she had sometimes seen children so hyperactive that they could, feasibly, have been intoxicated. The media scurried outside to report this apparent bombshell and missed one of the most significant pieces of testimony in the entire trial.

Under cross examination by Thomas Mesereau, Fournier said that during the Arvizo family's final weeks at Neverland - the period during which the molestation supposedly happened - the two boys' guest room had been constantly messy, leading her to believe they'd been sleeping in their own quarters all along - not Michael Jackson's bedroom.

She also testified that Star Arvizo had once pulled a knife on her in the kitchen, explaining that she did not feel it had been intended as a joke and that she thought he'd been 'trying to assert some sort of authority'.

In a devastating blow to the prosecution's increasingly hilarious conspiracy charge, Fournier laughed at the idea that anybody could be held prisoner at Neverland Ranch, telling the jurors that there was no high fence around the property and the family could have walked out at any time 'with ease'.

When Gavin and Star's mother Janet Arvizo took the stand Tom Sneddon was seen with his head in his hands. She claimed that a videotape of herself and her children praising Jackson had been scripted word for word by a German man who barely spoke English. In outtakes she was seen singing Jackson's praises then looking embarrassed and asking if she was being recorded. She said that had been scripted too.

She claimed she'd been held hostage at Neverland even though log books and receipts showed that she'd left the ranch and returned on three occasions during the period of 'captivity'. It became apparent that she was currently under investigation for welfare fraud and had also been falsely obtaining money on the back of her son's illness, holding benefits to pay for his cancer treatment when he was already covered by insurance.

Even the most ardent prosecution supporters had to admit that Janet Arvizo was a disastrous witness for the state. Except Diane Dimond, who in March 2005 seemed to use Janet Arvizo's welfare fraud (she was convicted in the wake of Jackson's trial) as roundabout proof of Jackson's guilt, signing off a New York Post article with the gob smacking line, "Pedophiles don't target kids with Ozzie and Harriet parents."

Watching their case crumble before their eyes, the prosecution applied to the judge for permission to admit evidence of 'prior bad acts'. Permission was granted. Prosecutors told the jury they would hear evidence of five former victims. But those five prior cases turned out to be even more laughable than the Arvizos' claims.

A parade of disgruntled security guards and housekeepers took the stand to testify that they had witnessed molestation, much of it carried out on three boys; Wade Robson, Brett Barnes and Macauley Culkin. But those three boys were the defense's first three witnesses, each of them testifying that Jackson had never touched them and they resented the implication.

Moreover, it was revealed that each of these former employees had been fired by Jackson for stealing from his property or had lost a wrongful termination suit and wound up owing Jackson huge amounts of money. They'd also neglected to tell the police when they supposedly witnessed this molestation, even when questioned in connection with Jordan Chandler's 1993 allegations, but subsequently tried to sell stories to the press - sometimes successfully. The more money on the table, the more salacious the allegations became.

Roger Friedman complained in an interview with Matt Drudge that the media was ignoring the cross examination of the 'prior bad acts' witnesses, resulting in skewed reporting. He said, "When Thursday started, that first hour was with this guy Ralph Chacon who had worked at the Ranch as a security guard. He told the most outrageous story. It was so graphic. And of course everybody went running outside to report on it. But there were ten minutes right before the first break on Thursday when Tom Mesereau got up and cross examined this guy and obliterated him."

The fourth 'victim', Jason Francia, took the stand and claimed that when he was a child, Jackson had molested him on three separate occasions. Pushed for details of the 'molestation', he said Jackson had tickled him three times outside his clothes and he'd needed years of therapy to get over it. The jury was seen rolling their eyes but reporters including Dan Abrams heralded him as 'compelling', predicting that he could be the witness who put Jackson behind bars.

The media repeatedly claimed that Francia's allegations had been made in 1990, leading audiences to believe that the Jordan Chandler allegations were predated. In actuality, although Jason Francia claimed that the acts of molestation occurred in 1990, he didn't report them until after the media storm over Chandler's claims, at which point his mother, Neverland maid Blanca Francia, promptly extracted $200,000 from Hard Copy for an interview with Diane Dimond and another $2.4million in a settlement from Jackson.

Moreover, transcripts from police interviews showed that the Francia had repeatedly changed his story and had originally insisted that he'd never been molested. Transcripts also showed that he only said he was molested after police officers repeatedly overstepped the mark during interviews. Officers repeatedly referred to Jackson as a 'molester'. On one occasion they told the boy that Jackson was molesting Macauley Culkin as they spoke, claiming that the only way they could rescue Culkin was if Francia told them he'd been sexually abused by the star. Transcripts also showed that Francia had previously said of the police, "They made me come up with stuff. They kept pushing. I wanted to hit them in the head."

The fifth 'victim' was Jordan Chandler, who fled the country rather than testify against his former friend. Thomas Mesereau said in a Harvard lecture later that year, "The prosecutors tried to get him to show up and he wouldn't. If he had, I had witnesses who were going to come in and say he told them it never happened and that he would never talk to his parents again for what they made him say. It turned out he'd gone into court and got legal emancipation from his parents."

June Chandler, Jordan's mother, testified that she hadn't spoken to her son in 11 years. Questioned about the 1993 case, she seemed to suffer from a severe case of selective memory. At one point she claimed she couldn't remember being sued by Michael Jackson and at another she said she'd never heard of her own attorney. She also never witnessed any molestation.

When the prosecution rested, the media seemed to lose interest in the trial. The defense case was given comparatively little newspaper space and air time. The Hollywood Reporter, which had been diligently reporting on the Jackson trial, missed out two whole weeks of the defense case. The attitude seemed to be that unless the testimony was graphic and salacious - unless it made a good soundbite - it wasn't worth reporting.

The defense called numerous fantastic witnesses; boys and girls who had stayed with Jackson time and again and never witnessed any inappropriate behavior, employees who had witnessed the Arvizo boys helping themselves to alcohol in Jackson's absence and celebrities who had also been targeted for handouts by the accuser. But little of this testimony was relayed to the public. When DA Tom Sneddon referred to black comic Chris Tucker as 'boy' during his cross examination, the media didn't bat an eyelid.

When both sides rested jurors were told that if they found reasonable doubt, they had to acquit. Anybody who had been paying attention to proceedings could see that the doubt was so far beyond reasonable it wasn't even funny. Almost every single prosecution witness either perjured themselves or wound up helping the defense. There wasn't a shred of evidence connecting Jackson to any crime and there wasn't a single credible witness connecting him to a crime either.

But that didn't stop journalists and pundits from predicting guilty verdicts, CNN's Nancy Grace leading the way. Defense attorney Robert Shapiro, who had once represented the Chandler family, stated with certainty on CNN, "He's going to be convicted." Ex-prosecutor Wendy Murphy told Fox News, "There is no question we will see convictions here."

The hysteria of the fans outside the courthouse was mirrored by that of the reporters who secured seats inside, who were so excitable that Judge Rodney Melville ordered them to 'restrain themselves'. Thomas Mesereau commented retrospectively that the media had been "almost salivating about having [Jackson] hauled off to jail."

When the jury delivered 14 'not guilty' verdicts, the media was 'humiliated', Mesereau said in a subsequent interview. Media analyst Tim Rutten later commented, "So what happened when Jackson was acquitted on all counts? Red faces? Second thoughts? A little soul-searching, perhaps? Maybe one expression of regret for the rush to judgment? Naaawww. The reaction, instead, was rage liberally laced with contempt and the odd puzzled expression. Its targets were the jurors... Hell hath no fury like a cable anchor held up for scorn."

In a post-verdict news conference Sneddon continued to refer to Gavin Arvizo as a 'victim' and said he suspected that the 'celebrity factor' had impeded the jury's judgment - a line many media pundits swiftly appropriated as they set about undermining the jurors and their verdicts.

Within minutes of the announcement, Nancy Grace appeared on CourtTV to allege that jurors had been seduced by Jackson's fame and bizarrely claim that the prosecution's only weak link had been Janet Arvizo.

"I'm having a crow sandwich right now," she said. "It doesn't taste very good. But you know what? I'm also not surprised. I thought that celebrity is such a big factor. When you think you know somebody, when you have watched their concerts, listened to their records, read the lyrics, believed they were coming from somebody's heart... Jackson is very charismatic, although he never took the stand. That has an effect on this jury.

"I'm not gonna throw a stone at the mom, although I think she was the weak link in the state's case, but the reality is I'm not surprised. I thought that the jury would vote in favor of the similar transaction witnesses. Apparently the defense overwhelmed them with the cross-examining of the mother. I think it boils down to that, plain and simple."

Grace later stated that Jackson was 'not guilty by reason of celebrity' and was seen attempting to hound jury foreman Paul Rodriguez into saying he believed Jackson had molested children. One of Grace's guests, psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, leveled personal attacks towards one female juror, saying, "This is a woman who has no life."

Over on Fox News, Wendy Murphy branded Jackson 'the Teflon molester' and said that the jurors needed IQ tests. She later added, "I really think it's the celebrity factor, not the evidence. I don't think the jurors even understand how influenced they were by who Michael Jackson is... They basically put targets on the backs of all, especially highly vulnerable, kids that will now come into Michael Jackson's life."

Legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin told CNN that he thought the 'prior bad acts' testimony had been 'effective evidence', even though various boys at the heart of that testimony had taken the stand as defense witnesses and denied ever being molested. He also claimed that the defense had won because "they could tell a story, and juries, you know, always understand stories rather than sort of individual facts."

Only Robert Shapiro was dignified in the face of the verdicts, telling viewers that they should accept the jurors' decision because the jurors were from "a very conservative part of California and if they had no doubt, none of us should have any doubt."

The following day on Good Morning America, Diane Sawyer upheld the notion that the verdict had been influenced by Jackson's celebrity status. "Are you sure?" she pleaded. "Are you sure that this gigantically renowned guy walking into the room had no influence at all?"

The Washington Post commented, "An acquittal doesn't clear his name, it only muddies the water." Both the New York Post and the New York Daily News ran with the snide headline 'Boy, Oh, Boy!'

In her final New York Post article about the trial, Diane Dimond bemoaned the not guilty verdict, saying that it left Michael Jackson untouchable. She wrote, "He walked out of court a free man, not guilty on all counts. But Michael Jackson is so much more than free. He now has carte blanche to live his life any way he wants, with whomever he wants, because who would ever try to prosecute Michael Jackson now?"

In Britain's Sun newspaper, celebrity rent-a-gob and talking head extraordinaire Jane Moore penned an article titled 'If the jury agree Janet Arvizo is a bad mum (and she IS)... How did they let Jackson off?' It began: "Michael Jackson is innocent. Justice has been done. Or so the loony tunes gathered outside the courthouse would have us believe." She went on to question the jurors' mental capacity and dismiss the American legal system as 'half-baked'. "Nothing and no one truly emerges as a winner from this sorry mess," she finished, "least of all what they laughably call American 'justice'."

Sun contributor Ally Ross dismissed Jackson's fans as 'sad, solitary dick-wits'. Another Sun article, penned by daytime TV presenter Lorraine Kelly, titled 'Don't forget the kids still at risk... Jackson's own', overtly labeled Jackson a guilty man. Kelly - who never attended Jackson's trial - bemoaned the fact that Jackson 'got away with it', complaining that "instead of languishing in jail, Jackson is now back home in Neverland." Jackson, she concluded, was "a sad, sick loser who uses his fame and money to dazzle the parents of children he takes a shine to."

After the initial outrage, the Michael Jackson story slipped out of the headlines. There was little analysis of the not guilty verdicts and how they were reached. An acquittal was considered less profitable than a conviction.

Indeed, Thomas Mesereau said in later years that if Jackson had been convicted it would have created a 'cottage industry' for the media, generating a story a day for years to come. Long-running sagas like custody of Jackson's children, control of his financial empire, other 'victims' filing civil suits and the long-winded appeals process would have generated thousands of stories each for months, years, perhaps even decades.

Jackson's imprisonment would have created a never ending supply of gratuitous headlines; Who is visiting? Who isn't? Is he in solitary confinement? If not, who are his cellmates? What about his prison wardens? Does he have a prison pen-pal girlfriend? Can we fly a helicopter over the prison yard and film him exercising? The possibilities were endless. A bidding war was raging over who would get the first leaked images of Jackson in his cell before the jury even began its deliberations.

A not guilty verdict was not quite so lucrative. In an interview with Newsweek, CNN boss Jonathan Klein recalled watching the not guilty verdicts come in and then telling his deputies, "We have a less interesting story now." The Hollywood Reporter noted that hastily assembled TV specials about Jackson's acquittal performed badly and were beaten in the ratings by a re-run of Nanny 911.

The story was over. There were no apologies and no retractions. There was no scrutiny - no inquiries or investigations. Nobody was held to account for what was done to Michael Jackson. The media was content to let people go on believing their heavily skewed and borderline fictitious account of the trial. That was that.

When Michael Jackson died the media went into overdrive again. What drugs had killed him? How long had he been using them? Who had prescribed them? What else was in his system? How much did he weigh?

But there was one question nobody seemed to want to ask: Why?

Why was Michael Jackson so stressed and so paranoid that he couldn't even get a decent night's sleep unless somebody stuck a tube full of anesthetic into his arm? I think the answer can be found in the results of various polls conducted in the wake of Michael Jackson's trial.

A poll conducted by Gallup in the hours after the verdict showed that 54% of White Americans and 48% of the overall population disagreed with the jury's decision of 'not guilty'. The poll also found that 62% of people felt Jackson's celebrity status was instrumental in the verdicts. 34% said they were 'saddened' by the verdict and 24% said they were 'outraged'. In a Fox News poll 37% of voters said the verdict was 'wrong' while an additional 25% said 'celebrities buy justice'. A poll by People Weekly found that a staggering 88% of readers disagreed with the jury's decision.

The media did a number on its audience and it did a number on Jackson. After battling his way through an exhausting and horrifying trial, riddled with hideous accusations and character assassinations, Michael Jackson should have felt vindicated when the jury delivered 14 unanimous not guilty verdicts. But the media's irresponsible coverage of the trial made it impossible for Jackson to ever feel truly vindicated. The legal system may have declared him innocent but the public, on the whole, still thought otherwise. Allegations which were disproven in court went unchallenged in the press. Shaky testimony was presented as fact. The defense's case was all but ignored.

When asked about those who doubted the verdicts, the jury replied, "They didn't see what we saw."

They're right. We didn't. But we should have done. And those who refused to tell us remain in their jobs unchecked, unpunished and free to do exactly the same thing to anybody they desire.

Now that's what I call injustice.

"We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #787 posted 09/03/10 9:30pm

Timmy84

I still can't fully get behind dude. How can one defend someone on one hand and then diss him the next and then claim he wasn't a fan? Sorry but no.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #788 posted 09/03/10 9:34pm

tangerine7

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #789 posted 09/03/10 10:17pm

mimi07

avatar

"we make our heroes in America only to destroy them"
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #790 posted 09/03/10 11:40pm

bboy87

avatar

[img:$uid]http://i51.tinypic.com/205wqxx.jpg[/img:$uid]

"We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #791 posted 09/03/10 11:41pm

Swa

avatar

mozfonky said:

THIS IS IT In Retrospect

I did buy this DVD and watched it with love from beginning to end, anger too. A few days earlier I saw the incredible footage from Bucharest, really no comparison as far as quality but understandable. Watching This Is It was objectively like watching Elvis in his last days except that Elvis was at his best as a singer and his worst as a dancer. Michael was still very vital as a singer and his dancing only held glimpses of his past greatness, but even those were precious and better than anyone else now living. I think it came down to his insecurity, his confidence just seems nonexistent, as was the passion. That's to be somewhat expected and I've said before I'm positive he would have done fine BUT I don't think he thought that. Like Elvis before his 68 special he looked very, very tentative. I hear Elvis was always nervous before a show, no big deal there, but his heart didn't always look into it. I remember once speaking to a broken down Navy Seal who would go in and out of clarity, in his moments of clarity you could see the same type of glimpses into what he used to be, a lethal, efficient, instinctively intelligent machine, watching Michael in his better moments, especially during Billy Jean or even in the ambiguous, heartbreaking scene where he floats above the dancers like a puppeteer during Threatened. That scene particularly, (once described as "demonic" by a reviewer) where he looks both fragile/victimlike and completely in command at the same time was the most powerful scene for me. Maybe that was part of Michael's (and Elvis' for that matter) appeal. He always seemed at once completely out of control and completely in control at the same time. I have to repeat that I believe he would have done fine as Elvis once he got cooking, and as a performer myself I am completely aware of how you can go onstage and emotional mess and full of doubts and come off feeling like a god. Michael seemed genuinely touched by the rabid cheers of his crew at the end of Billie Jean, unlike the taken for granted applause of his younger self. It's what the love of people can do when you touch them and they respond, I know Michael still had it in him, pity we didn't get the oppurtunity to witness more magic.

[Edited 9/3/10 18:27pm]

Interesting retrospective thoughts on This Is It here moz. I guess everyone probably has a different point of view on the film and maybe have different expectations of what they were going to see.

As someone who had tickets to 2 of his shows in the TII tour I went along to the film's initial opening with a sense of dred. I knew that this was going to be a film showing Michael not at "opening night" performance level and thought the fact that this was rehearsal footage might be lost on the general public (and even critics). Thankfully for the most part it wasn't.

Was this MJ at 100% - clearly not. And perhaps this was partly due to confidence, but it must be said that this was also due to it still being weeks out from opening night. This was MJ working to 100% performance, not at 100% performance.

Having watched the DVD now several times (most recently this past weekend) I still appreciate seeing Michael finding his feet again and working his way through a work in progress. One of the things I did notice is how Michael would use his hands sometimes to indicate what he would do as evident in moments like Billie Jean or Threatened when he would point and spin his hand as if to say "and here I will do this".

In Threatened, which you mentioned you clearly see MJ on the ramp above the dancers doing some of the moves and using his hands to indicate others. (In the Blu-Ray bonus features you see sections of MJ working through steps from Ghost which most of the "Threatened" routine was based on).

For what it is, a movie of rehearsal footage, This Is It is a glimpse of potential. An insight into the creative process and the coming together of a tour, and a moment of what might have been. When you watch all the bonus features you get a more holistic view of what the show would have been like (including the Dirty Diana moments, how the films would have worked in sequence of the show etc).

For me I think MJ would have pulled it off, and won the critics over and I was happy to have placed my money where my mouth was. When you view This Is It as a warm up rather than a full blown performance, I think you appreciate it more.

As Michael said, at least you get a feel for it.

"I'm not human I'm a dove, I'm ur conscience. I am love"
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #792 posted 09/03/10 11:48pm

Timmy84

bboy87 said:

[img:$uid]http://i51.tinypic.com/205wqxx.jpg[/img:$uid]

I think this was a moving GIF or something... I could've sworn I saw stuff move around MJ's face... hmmm

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #793 posted 09/04/10 12:28am

alphastreet

MyLuv229 said:

Can we please get back to the music before I feeling ill

jealous aren't we? lol

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #794 posted 09/04/10 1:24am

mozfonky

avatar

Swa said:

mozfonky said:

THIS IS IT In Retrospect

I did buy this DVD and watched it with love from beginning to end, anger too. A few days earlier I saw the incredible footage from Bucharest, really no comparison as far as quality but understandable. Watching This Is It was objectively like watching Elvis in his last days except that Elvis was at his best as a singer and his worst as a dancer. Michael was still very vital as a singer and his dancing only held glimpses of his past greatness, but even those were precious and better than anyone else now living. I think it came down to his insecurity, his confidence just seems nonexistent, as was the passion. That's to be somewhat expected and I've said before I'm positive he would have done fine BUT I don't think he thought that. Like Elvis before his 68 special he looked very, very tentative. I hear Elvis was always nervous before a show, no big deal there, but his heart didn't always look into it. I remember once speaking to a broken down Navy Seal who would go in and out of clarity, in his moments of clarity you could see the same type of glimpses into what he used to be, a lethal, efficient, instinctively intelligent machine, watching Michael in his better moments, especially during Billy Jean or even in the ambiguous, heartbreaking scene where he floats above the dancers like a puppeteer during Threatened. That scene particularly, (once described as "demonic" by a reviewer) where he looks both fragile/victimlike and completely in command at the same time was the most powerful scene for me. Maybe that was part of Michael's (and Elvis' for that matter) appeal. He always seemed at once completely out of control and completely in control at the same time. I have to repeat that I believe he would have done fine as Elvis once he got cooking, and as a performer myself I am completely aware of how you can go onstage and emotional mess and full of doubts and come off feeling like a god. Michael seemed genuinely touched by the rabid cheers of his crew at the end of Billie Jean, unlike the taken for granted applause of his younger self. It's what the love of people can do when you touch them and they respond, I know Michael still had it in him, pity we didn't get the oppurtunity to witness more magic.

[Edited 9/3/10 18:27pm]

Interesting retrospective thoughts on This Is It here moz. I guess everyone probably has a different point of view on the film and maybe have different expectations of what they were going to see.

As someone who had tickets to 2 of his shows in the TII tour I went along to the film's initial opening with a sense of dred. I knew that this was going to be a film showing Michael not at "opening night" performance level and thought the fact that this was rehearsal footage might be lost on the general public (and even critics). Thankfully for the most part it wasn't.

Was this MJ at 100% - clearly not. And perhaps this was partly due to confidence, but it must be said that this was also due to it still being weeks out from opening night. This was MJ working to 100% performance, not at 100% performance.

Having watched the DVD now several times (most recently this past weekend) I still appreciate seeing Michael finding his feet again and working his way through a work in progress. One of the things I did notice is how Michael would use his hands sometimes to indicate what he would do as evident in moments like Billie Jean or Threatened when he would point and spin his hand as if to say "and here I will do this".

In Threatened, which you mentioned you clearly see MJ on the ramp above the dancers doing some of the moves and using his hands to indicate others. (In the Blu-Ray bonus features you see sections of MJ working through steps from Ghost which most of the "Threatened" routine was based on).

For what it is, a movie of rehearsal footage, This Is It is a glimpse of potential. An insight into the creative process and the coming together of a tour, and a moment of what might have been. When you watch all the bonus features you get a more holistic view of what the show would have been like (including the Dirty Diana moments, how the films would have worked in sequence of the show etc).

For me I think MJ would have pulled it off, and won the critics over and I was happy to have placed my money where my mouth was. When you view This Is It as a warm up rather than a full blown performance, I think you appreciate it more.

As Michael said, at least you get a feel for it.

I'd seen the movie once before, knew i'd have to buy it eventually. It really is bittersweet for me and a lot of people. Many people loved him so much they can hardly even look at him without breaking up. The Threatened scene was potent because you see him frenzied, in control but to me he still looked frail and gaunt and helpless, like Amadeus in the last scenes where he's been pushed past his limits but still carries the air of a wizard. Michael needing someone right next to him to make sure he doesn't fall off stage and can find his way safely off that platform just seems full of pathos to me, not sure if that's just my projections or reality.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #795 posted 09/04/10 1:25am

bboy87

avatar

Timmy84 said:

I still can't fully get behind dude. How can one defend someone on one hand and then diss him the next and then claim he wasn't a fan? Sorry but no.

Me either, but a comment in Music and More irked me so I felt the need the post them

you know how I get sometimes lol

"We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #796 posted 09/04/10 1:32am

mozfonky

avatar

The Way You Make Me Feel, Dancewise Michaels Best?

I've been watching this one alot and it occured to me that he may be more varied, more fresh and more inspired here than in any other video. He moves catlike after the girl, the poses and timing of his gestures and stances are brilliant. The moves are from old musicals and some are new. I see lots of history in his movements. I have to say this is my favorite over any of his other videos dancewise, and even in his enthusiasm. He looks genuinely happy and excited, not the angry dancer of Beat It or the regimented guy of thriller, it's Michael alone for the most part and he's better than he ever was and maybe better than he ever would be. I've been trying to find out who choreographed the vid, if anyone. It looks perfectly planned and thought out, not just the moves but the interaction between Michael/girl, it's a perfect reflection of the man/woman courtship dynamic. The girl plays her role so convincingly it's hard to believe she was the one smitten by Michael in real life. She played the unnatainable to a t.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #797 posted 09/04/10 1:34am

mozfonky

avatar

bboy87 said:

Timmy84 said:

I still can't fully get behind dude. How can one defend someone on one hand and then diss him the next and then claim he wasn't a fan? Sorry but no.

Me either, but a comment in Music and More irked me so I felt the need the post them

you know how I get sometimes lol

what dude? the author? If so why not? Does seem everyone flip flopped after michael passed. "Well, on second thought, I really don't think he did anything" type of sentiment.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #798 posted 09/04/10 1:37am

bboy87

avatar

mozfonky said:

bboy87 said:

Me either, but a comment in Music and More irked me so I felt the need the post them

you know how I get sometimes lol

what dude? the author? If so why not? Does seem everyone flip flopped after michael passed. "Well, on second thought, I really don't think he did anything" type of sentiment.

yeah the author, he said some pretty crappy things before Michael passed but he seems to be considered the Pro Michael guy to go to these days

"We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #799 posted 09/04/10 1:50am

ViintageJunkii
e

avatar

One of my favorite MJ tracks

BBoy, could u post the dates of when the Thriller and Bad videos were filmed? I remember reading somewhere a few years ago that Leave Me Alone was recorded AFTER the Bad session and was added when the album made its debut on compact disc.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #800 posted 09/04/10 2:09am

bboy87

avatar

ViintageJunkiie said:

One of my favorite MJ tracks

BBoy, could u post the dates of when the Thriller and Bad videos were filmed? I remember reading somewhere a few years ago that Leave Me Alone was recorded AFTER the Bad session and was added when the album made its debut on compact disc.

Going by memory....

Billie Jean- December 1982-January 1983

Beat It- March 1983

Say Say Say- August- September 1983

Thriller- September- November 1983

Bad- December 1986 in NY

Smooth Criminal- February- March 1987 in California

The Way You Make Me Feel- June 1987 in California

Leave Me Alone- August 1987 in California- he was hollering at Tatiana during this time lol

Speed Demon in California- December 1987

Dirty Diana in California- January-or February 1988

Another Part Of Me- June 27-28 in Paris and July 14-15 in London (audio is from the July 14th show in London)

Come Together had to be filmed in late 1988

"We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #801 posted 09/04/10 7:13am

Timmy84

bboy87 said:

Timmy84 said:

I still can't fully get behind dude. How can one defend someone on one hand and then diss him the next and then claim he wasn't a fan? Sorry but no.

Me either, but a comment in Music and More irked me so I felt the need the post them

you know how I get sometimes lol

Yeah I know. lol

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #802 posted 09/04/10 7:32am

Unholyalliance

mjwifey4l said:

thriller (the album) has sold over 110 million copies NOT INCLUDING SINGLES.... he even recieved a diamond award in 2006 at the world music awards for sales of thriller surpassing 104 million copies. alot of ppl cant believe that ONE ALBUM can sale so many copies without singles sales being included or that the amount is being greatly exaggerated. probably becuz no other album in history has even come close. and if you look the total revenue that THRILLER has raked since its release in its surpasses $4 BILLION. (and no its not a typo i DID say BILLION nod )

Well, I just posted someone's, a very trusted person in the chart sales community, breakdown of Thriller's album sales and someone else posted what is believe to be Sony's actual sales tally. Both of them have figures that come closer to the 70 million number as there's no real sales proof of that 110 million figure.

But, in the end, it's whatever helps you to sleep at night. :3

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #803 posted 09/04/10 8:51am

Swa

avatar

mozfonky said:

Swa said:

Interesting retrospective thoughts on This Is It here moz. I guess everyone probably has a different point of view on the film and maybe have different expectations of what they were going to see.

As someone who had tickets to 2 of his shows in the TII tour I went along to the film's initial opening with a sense of dred. I knew that this was going to be a film showing Michael not at "opening night" performance level and thought the fact that this was rehearsal footage might be lost on the general public (and even critics). Thankfully for the most part it wasn't.

Was this MJ at 100% - clearly not. And perhaps this was partly due to confidence, but it must be said that this was also due to it still being weeks out from opening night. This was MJ working to 100% performance, not at 100% performance.

Having watched the DVD now several times (most recently this past weekend) I still appreciate seeing Michael finding his feet again and working his way through a work in progress. One of the things I did notice is how Michael would use his hands sometimes to indicate what he would do as evident in moments like Billie Jean or Threatened when he would point and spin his hand as if to say "and here I will do this".

In Threatened, which you mentioned you clearly see MJ on the ramp above the dancers doing some of the moves and using his hands to indicate others. (In the Blu-Ray bonus features you see sections of MJ working through steps from Ghost which most of the "Threatened" routine was based on).

For what it is, a movie of rehearsal footage, This Is It is a glimpse of potential. An insight into the creative process and the coming together of a tour, and a moment of what might have been. When you watch all the bonus features you get a more holistic view of what the show would have been like (including the Dirty Diana moments, how the films would have worked in sequence of the show etc).

For me I think MJ would have pulled it off, and won the critics over and I was happy to have placed my money where my mouth was. When you view This Is It as a warm up rather than a full blown performance, I think you appreciate it more.

As Michael said, at least you get a feel for it.

I'd seen the movie once before, knew i'd have to buy it eventually. It really is bittersweet for me and a lot of people. Many people loved him so much they can hardly even look at him without breaking up. The Threatened scene was potent because you see him frenzied, in control but to me he still looked frail and gaunt and helpless, like Amadeus in the last scenes where he's been pushed past his limits but still carries the air of a wizard. Michael needing someone right next to him to make sure he doesn't fall off stage and can find his way safely off that platform just seems full of pathos to me, not sure if that's just my projections or reality.

Watching Threatened now - and I guess I see things differently. We know that for some rehearsals Travis filled in for Michael when rehearsing with the dances. So to me, Travis is there next to him counting him through beats (you can seem him clicking his fingers counting it down) as Michael is doing parts from the Ghost routine. Travis then points for MJ to exit at the back of the stage and then you hear Kenny say "can we make sure someone is there with a flashlight for Michael" obviously meaning that on show nights, someone has to show MJ the steps down at the back of the stage off the ramp. I believe the idea was for MJ to exit the song on the riser and then go down under the stage so he could re-appear in the bed for Dirty Diana as it rose up through the stage.

I guess we each see in the clips want we want - maybe I am optimistic or perhaps just caught up in MJ getting into the track and the steps from Ghost. What I see as caught in the moment, you might see as frenzied - each to their own.

But it is good in hearing other's views on it as it makes watching it next time round like seeing it fresh.

"I'm not human I'm a dove, I'm ur conscience. I am love"
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #804 posted 09/04/10 12:04pm

bboy87

avatar

This is something I've noticed during This Is It, and maybe it's just me.....

but has anyone noticed Kenny's tone when talking to Michael sometimes? Kind of like he was talking to him like he was a child?

"We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #805 posted 09/04/10 12:08pm

ViintageJunkii
e

avatar

bboy87 said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

One of my favorite MJ tracks

BBoy, could u post the dates of when the Thriller and Bad videos were filmed? I remember reading somewhere a few years ago that Leave Me Alone was recorded AFTER the Bad session and was added when the album made its debut on compact disc.

Going by memory....

Billie Jean- December 1982-January 1983

Beat It- March 1983

Say Say Say- August- September 1983

Thriller- September- November 1983

Bad- December 1986 in NY

Smooth Criminal- February- March 1987 in California

The Way You Make Me Feel- June 1987 in California

Leave Me Alone- August 1987 in California- he was hollering at Tatiana during this time lol

Speed Demon in California- December 1987

Dirty Diana in California- January-or February 1988

Another Part Of Me- June 27-28 in Paris and July 14-15 in London (audio is from the July 14th show in London)

Come Together had to be filmed in late 1988

Thanks! Now, I think it was in the Moonwalk book, or Quincy said it...they said that they were prepping for Thriller DURING the Motown 25 era.

You didn't even answer my damn question! lol was Leave Me Alone recorded AFTER the Bad session?

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #806 posted 09/04/10 12:10pm

bboy87

avatar

ViintageJunkiie said:

bboy87 said:

Going by memory....

Billie Jean- December 1982-January 1983

Beat It- March 1983

Say Say Say- August- September 1983

Thriller- September- November 1983

Bad- December 1986 in NY

Smooth Criminal- February- March 1987 in California

The Way You Make Me Feel- June 1987 in California

Leave Me Alone- August 1987 in California- he was hollering at Tatiana during this time lol

Speed Demon in California- December 1987

Dirty Diana in California- January-or February 1988

Another Part Of Me- June 27-28 in Paris and July 14-15 in London (audio is from the July 14th show in London)

Come Together had to be filmed in late 1988

Thanks! Now, I think it was in the Moonwalk book, or Quincy said it...they said that they were prepping for Thriller DURING the Motown 25 era.

You didn't even answer my damn question! lol was Leave Me Alone recorded AFTER the Bad session?

Wait a minute....how were they prepping for Thriller during the Motown 25 performance? Thriller had been out at least 5 months and had already sold around 3 mil by then lol

I believe it was recorded during the sessions. I hope someone gets their hands on the old Westlake Studios recording logs and finds out the exact days which songs were recorded. That would be a goldmine for me lol

"We may deify or demonize them but not ignore them. And we call them genius, because they are the people who change the world."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #807 posted 09/04/10 12:18pm

Timmy84

ViintageJunkiie said:

bboy87 said:

Going by memory....

Billie Jean- December 1982-January 1983

Beat It- March 1983

Say Say Say- August- September 1983

Thriller- September- November 1983

Bad- December 1986 in NY

Smooth Criminal- February- March 1987 in California

The Way You Make Me Feel- June 1987 in California

Leave Me Alone- August 1987 in California- he was hollering at Tatiana during this time lol

Speed Demon in California- December 1987

Dirty Diana in California- January-or February 1988

Another Part Of Me- June 27-28 in Paris and July 14-15 in London (audio is from the July 14th show in London)

Come Together had to be filmed in late 1988

Thanks! Now, I think it was in the Moonwalk book, or Quincy said it...they said that they were prepping for Thriller DURING the Motown 25 era.

You didn't even answer my damn question! lol was Leave Me Alone recorded AFTER the Bad session?

I doubt it. lol Jay's account is more accurate.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #808 posted 09/04/10 12:20pm

Timmy84

"Leave Me Alone" was recorded during the Bad sessions as far as I'm concerned lol

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #809 posted 09/04/10 12:43pm

babybugz

avatar

bboy87 said:

This is something I've noticed during This Is It, and maybe it's just me.....

but has anyone noticed Kenny's tone when talking to Michael sometimes? Kind of like he was talking to him like he was a child?

Because Michaels mind wasn't a mind of a adult at times ..he was off in things.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Page 27 of 32 « First<232425262728293031>Last »
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Music: Non-Prince > Discuss Everything and Anything MJ