You see a monster, you see a freak, you see your personal toy to hurt, but I'm a good person and I'm a human being, but if that's how you see me, then so be it

You feel his heart. Not the hurt, but his heart

My rant: The man was such a beautiful soul, it's frustrating that the world refused and still refuses to see it

Sometimes, though, I really believe he relished being seen as a monster, I really do. Not because that's what he actually was but, how much different is being a monster than being idolized really? they are just flip sides of the same coin.

mozfonky said:

You see a monster, you see a freak, you see your personal toy to hurt, but I'm a good person and I'm a human being, but if that's how you see me, then so be it

You feel his heart. Not the hurt, but his heart

My rant: The man was such a beautiful soul, it's frustrating that the world refused and still refuses to see it

Sometimes, though, I really believe he relished being seen as a monster, I really do. Not because that's what he actually was but, how much different is being a monster than being idolized really? they are just flip sides of the same coin.

I think he liked being seen as bizarre and unique, but when people started seeing him as a predator, and evil person, I think that's when it crossed the line for him

bboy87 said:

mozfonky said:

Sometimes, though, I really believe he relished being seen as a monster, I really do. Not because that's what he actually was but, how much different is being a monster than being idolized really? they are just flip sides of the same coin.

I think he liked being seen as bizarre and unique, but when people started seeing him as a predator, and evil person, I think that's when it crossed the line for him

Unholyalliance said:

I just wonder, because it seems that when you see images of MJ across the world, they all seem to use various images of him from different time periods. Bad era MJ seems really popular in Asia, trial era MJ seems to be very popular amongst mainstream American media, HIStory era in Europe, Jackson 5 era MJ amongst black Americans, and etc. I'm not trying to generalize anyone or anything, but this it was a curious observation.

Never having been outside of America I can't really say but I can say this, the way America has convinced the world that the american black male is an inveterate thug and rapacious goon, if the world has bought into that, and I think they have if what my friends tell me is true, then yes, his transformation helped him. One thing I hate about all the hip hop ignorance, it gave the world more reason to believe the bs about black folks. Even africans in seattle here tell there children to stay away from black americans.

bboy87 said:

mozfonky said:

Sometimes, though, I really believe he relished being seen as a monster, I really do. Not because that's what he actually was but, how much different is being a monster than being idolized really? they are just flip sides of the same coin.

I think he liked being seen as bizarre and unique, but when people started seeing him as a predator, and evil person, I think that's when it crossed the line for him

well, i always thought he saw himself as very similar and sure he didn't want to be seen as evil. But when people are clawing at you and you are just a child, there must be some kind of fear there. I always thought he identified with John Merrick for those reasons. Truth is, you don't have that kind of charisma or presence by being normal, you just don't.

T

Unholyalliance said:

whatsgoingon said:

Having said that MJ was at his most popular during the Thriller era, where he still looked very much like a black man inspite of the nose jobs, therefore I don't think the transformation made him more popular, if anything it made him more notorious.

He became way more popular internationally around Bad era rather than the Thriller era. Thriller era MJ is mostly a US thing. This is why I asked that question.

Speaking of Blood on the Dancefloor, I will repeat that Morphine and Is It Scary are my favorite tracks on the album, with Morphine probably being in my top 5 favorite songs from his entire catalog.

Also, MJ was voted #1 on CNN's Music icons list:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/24/music.icon.gallery/

[Edited 8/26/10 8:35am]

[Edited 8/26/10 8:38am]

That is wrong, he was at his peak internationally during the Thriller period too. I don't know where people get this idea that Thriller was just an American thing, it was far from an American thing, it was an international thing, infact the reason why Thriller is the best selling album ever is because it sold considerably over seas as well as in America. I was abroad during the Thriller period and the songs and MJ was all over the place.

The only thing that the Bad era had over the Thriller period is that he took the Bad tour international which he didn't do with the Victory tour. I remember people from places like Africa, where he had been famous since he was in the J5, saying they didn't like him much after Thriller because he had changed so much.

[Edited 8/26/10 11:05am]

bboy87 said:

mozfonky said:

Sometimes, though, I really believe he relished being seen as a monster, I really do. Not because that's what he actually was but, how much different is being a monster than being idolized really? they are just flip sides of the same coin.

I think he liked being seen as bizarre and unique, but when people started seeing him as a predator, and evil person, I think that's when it crossed the line for him

Yeah, even Lisa Marie- he was into that stuff to bring on that mysterious image, but then eventually it stopped working for him. I think it backfired on him big time and he realized that. It weird now, how people see Michael differently than ever ever since his death.

Swa said:

Sadly little conversations about the music.

So i throw this out there....

What is everyone's take on Blood On The Dance Floor the album? Did you vibe on it when it came out? Do you vibe on it still? Do you count it as an album or remix cd / ep of new stuff.

Where do you place it in his solo work?

Swa

i didn't really get a chance to listen to the whole album, i think i heard all the tracks but I was really caught by Morphine, Is it Scary and Ghosts (if that's on this album) those songs belong with his best work and I'd take them over most of the stuff on bad and dangerous. Morphine is a potent song, obviously from experience and dark, I always liked mike best dark because I'm dark. I believe he was showing the angst ridden whiteboys of the grunge and industrial era that they really didn't know what pain and isolation or fame was. It just makes me wonder what would have happened if he'd done the rumoured Hurt by trent reznor, a great song already eclipsed by Johnny Cash's version.

suga10 said:

This almost looks nothing like MJ [img:$uid]http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5678/gallery7296641345.jpg[/img:$uid]

It is from the same shoot as this.

[img:$uid]http://img819.i.../img:$uid]

As for the BOODTF discussion, the only remix I really like on that album is the one of YANA. That´s even better than the original and generally speaking, I don´t like remixes at all.

Unholyalliance said:

Question for you guys though:

I saw in another thread here once that questioned whether or not MJ would have made it as big as he did had it not been for the plastic surgeries or vitiligo. My friend seemed to have agreed that while a lot of people criticized MJ's physical transformations, funny enough, it may have contributed to the fact that he was so accessible internationally. So what do you guys think? Do you think that his physical 'transformations' made a huge difference to his career or was it all just coincidence? Do you think that, for example, Jacksons era MJ would have hit it as big with Thriller and so on?

I just wonder, because it seems that when you see images of MJ across the world, they all seem to use various images of him from different time periods. Bad era MJ seems really popular in Asia, trial era MJ seems to be very popular amongst mainstream American media, HIStory era in Europe, Jackson 5 era MJ amongst black Americans, and etc. I'm not trying to generalize anyone or anything, but this it was a curious observation.

Ugh... I wish that were not true. But so it seems to be.

Whenever you look at poll results “Your favourite MJ’s look”, “Your favourite MJ’s era” - in any community, in any language – “Bad” is always a notorious winner, followed by “Dangerous”. Especially ladies are dying over "Bad" .

Don’t want to pick any further on that “universal accessibility”, but so far, it looks like his transformations were very helpful to his international success - at least for a while.

There are no studies about how many fans he lost on the same occasion, though.

I also saw a few rather well argumented speculations that his looks in every era was perfectly adjusted to his sound – and that later it was his looks again that did not allow him to return musically where he originally had come from (“just sit down and sing”)

I also think that MJ's face transformations made him more universally appealing to say the least. In a way, the vitiligo help him gain world wide sympathy.

[Edited 8/26/10 11:30am]

greatpink said:

Unholyalliance said:

Question for you guys though:

I saw in another thread here once that questioned whether or not MJ would have made it as big as he did had it not been for the plastic surgeries or vitiligo. My friend seemed to have agreed that while a lot of people criticized MJ's physical transformations, funny enough, it may have contributed to the fact that he was so accessible internationally. So what do you guys think? Do you think that his physical 'transformations' made a huge difference to his career or was it all just coincidence? Do you think that, for example, Jacksons era MJ would have hit it as big with Thriller and so on?

I just wonder, because it seems that when you see images of MJ across the world, they all seem to use various images of him from different time periods. Bad era MJ seems really popular in Asia, trial era MJ seems to be very popular amongst mainstream American media, HIStory era in Europe, Jackson 5 era MJ amongst black Americans, and etc. I'm not trying to generalize anyone or anything, but this it was a curious observation.

Ugh... I wish that were not true. But so it seems to be.

Whenever you look at poll results “Your favourite MJ’s look”, “Your favourite MJ’s era” - in any community, in any language – “Bad” is always a notorious winner, followed by “Dangerous”. Especially ladies are dying over "Bad" .

Don’t want to pick any further on that “universal accessibility”, but so far, it looks like his transformations were very helpful to his international success - at least for a while.

There are no studies about how many fans he lost on the same occasion, though.

I also saw a few rather well argumented speculations that his looks in every era was perfectly adjusted to his sound – and that later it was his looks again that did not allow him to return musically where he originally had come from (“just sit down and sing”)

I have never thought of it like that. I´ve just always seen him as very shy about his looks. Those masks and so on, I always felt, he was trying to hide. I really feel that he was insecure because of folks making fun of his big nose and later on vitiligo. But he was sooooooooooo gorgeous.

[img:$uid]http://img822.i.../img:$uid]
[img:$uid]http://img839.i.../img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://img837.i.../img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://img823.i.../img:$uid]

[Edited 8/26/10 11:42am]

I really like this picture. I think he was looking better in recent years.

[img:$uid]http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Michael+Jackson+Hospitalized+ooHNM2nkcVXl.jpg[/img:$uid]

TPain and Michael in late 2008

[img:$uid]http://cdn.theurbandaily.com/files/2009/08/3693121944_8ae39aceba.jpg[/img:$uid]

Jackie and Michael

[img:$uid]http://preview3.accesshollywood.com/content/images/97/230x306/97060_michael-jackson-and-his-brother-jackie-jackson-smile-as-they-re-enter-the-courtroom-after-a-break-fo.jpg[/img:$uid]

[Edited 8/26/10 11:41am]

mozfonky said:

Unholyalliance said:

I just wonder, because it seems that when you see images of MJ across the world, they all seem to use various images of him from different time periods. Bad era MJ seems really popular in Asia, trial era MJ seems to be very popular amongst mainstream American media, HIStory era in Europe, Jackson 5 era MJ amongst black Americans, and etc. I'm not trying to generalize anyone or anything, but this it was a curious observation.

Never having been outside of America I can't really say but I can say this, the way America has convinced the world that the american black male is an inveterate thug and rapacious goon, if the world has bought into that, and I think they have if what my friends tell me is true, then yes, his transformation helped him. One thing I hate about all the hip hop ignorance, it gave the world more reason to believe the bs about black folks. Even africans in seattle here tell there children to stay away from black americans.

I would say that to an average Joe outside of US that black community thing is only confusing, no more. At a closer look it's getting scary.

dag said:

greatpink said:

Ugh... I wish that were not true. But so it seems to be.

Whenever you look at poll results “Your favourite MJ’s look”, “Your favourite MJ’s era” - in any community, in any language – “Bad” is always a notorious winner, followed by “Dangerous”. Especially ladies are dying over "Bad" .

Don’t want to pick any further on that “universal accessibility”, but so far, it looks like his transformations were very helpful to his international success - at least for a while.

There are no studies about how many fans he lost on the same occasion, though.

I also saw a few rather well argumented speculations that his looks in every era was perfectly adjusted to his sound – and that later it was his looks again that did not allow him to return musically where he originally had come from (“just sit down and sing”)

I have never thought of it like that. I´ve just always seen him as very shy about his looks. Those masks and so on, I always felt, he was trying to hide. I really feel that he was insecure because of folks making fun of his big nose and later on vitiligo. But he was sooooooooooo gorgeous.

I dunno

I personally wish he would have changed nothing at all on himself, not even his nose.

But if he was unhappy with it...

Besides, with no changes at all he would have had a fairly small chance to become a world star

greatpink said:

Unholyalliance said:

Question for you guys though:

I saw in another thread here once that questioned whether or not MJ would have made it as big as he did had it not been for the plastic surgeries or vitiligo. My friend seemed to have agreed that while a lot of people criticized MJ's physical transformations, funny enough, it may have contributed to the fact that he was so accessible internationally. So what do you guys think? Do you think that his physical 'transformations' made a huge difference to his career or was it all just coincidence? Do you think that, for example, Jacksons era MJ would have hit it as big with Thriller and so on?

I just wonder, because it seems that when you see images of MJ across the world, they all seem to use various images of him from different time periods. Bad era MJ seems really popular in Asia, trial era MJ seems to be very popular amongst mainstream American media, HIStory era in Europe, Jackson 5 era MJ amongst black Americans, and etc. I'm not trying to generalize anyone or anything, but this it was a curious observation.

Ugh... I wish that were not true. But so it seems to be.

Whenever you look at poll results “Your favourite MJ’s look”, “Your favourite MJ’s era” - in any community, in any language – “Bad” is always a notorious winner, followed by “Dangerous”. Especially ladies are dying over "Bad" .

Don’t want to pick any further on that “universal accessibility”, but so far, it looks like his transformations were very helpful to his international success - at least for a while.

There are no studies about how many fans he lost on the same occasion, though.

I also saw a few rather well argumented speculations that his looks in every era was perfectly adjusted to his sound – and that later it was his looks again that did not allow him to return musically where he originally had come from (“just sit down and sing”)

But that is due to the fact that his more ardent fans usually became fans during the Bad/Dangerous era. If you ask fans dating back to the Jackson 5 era I doubt very much Bad or Dangerous era would be their favourite era. The thing about MJ death is that it brought Michael how we first remembered him when he first became famous back into focus. I have even seen many people rocking J5 t-shirts, something that was very rare before.

By the way I know a lot of Europeans and Asians who actually prefered MJ in all his natural glory, afro and all. I also know some white people who have actually said they were glad he got vitiligo and wore his hair/wigs straight(Infact some of them thought those wigs were his natural hair) because the darker skin MJ with his afro looked intimidating. It just goes to show even amongst fans opinions varied.

suga10 said:

I really like this picture. I think he was looking better in recent years.

[Edited 8/26/10 11:41am]

These are my recent favourite looks:

[img:$uid]http://img838.i.../img:$uid]
[img:$uid]http://img837.i.../img:$uid]
[img:$uid]http://img838.i.../img:$uid]
[img:$uid]http://img838.i.../img:$uid]

I love the colors of his clothes here.

[img:$uid]http://img830.i.../img:$uid]

And I have always loved him in this interview. Mike looks so good with facial hair. Just too hot.

[img:$uid]http://img535.i.../img:$uid]

[Edited 8/26/10 11:59am]

Somebody just posted these on KOP board.

Oh, his eyes.

Like father, like son. I miss his crazy outfits.

[img:$uid]http://img826.i.../img:$uid]

whatsgoingon said:

greatpink said:

Ugh... I wish that were not true. But so it seems to be.

Whenever you look at poll results “Your favourite MJ’s look”, “Your favourite MJ’s era” - in any community, in any language – “Bad” is always a notorious winner, followed by “Dangerous”. Especially ladies are dying over "Bad" .

Don’t want to pick any further on that “universal accessibility”, but so far, it looks like his transformations were very helpful to his international success - at least for a while.

There are no studies about how many fans he lost on the same occasion, though.

I also saw a few rather well argumented speculations that his looks in every era was perfectly adjusted to his sound – and that later it was his looks again that did not allow him to return musically where he originally had come from (“just sit down and sing”)

But that is due to the fact that his more ardent fans usually became fans during the Bad/Dangerous era. If you ask fans dating back to the Jackson 5 era I doubt very much Bad or Dangerous era would be their favourite era. The thing about MJ death is that it brought Michael how we first remembered him when he first became famous back into focus. I have even seen many people rocking J5 t-shirts, something that was very rare before.

By the way I know a lot of Europeans and Asians who actually prefered MJ in all his natural glory, afro and all. I also know some white people who have actually said they were glad he got vitiligo and wore his hair/wigs straight(Infact some of them thought those wigs were his natural hair) because the darker skin MJ with his afro looked intimidating. It just goes to show even amongst fans opinions varied.

Yes, sure.

Besides, you can never write off the "still waters" - people who don't speak or vote, but still have opinion and go to concerts and music stores.

The bolded part is what I am glad about (as a white European and a fan of his original looks )

(Would wish him back yet in ANY shape, looks or shade )

Swa said:

Sadly little conversations about the music.

So i throw this out there....

What is everyone's take on Blood On The Dance Floor the album? Did you vibe on it when it came out? Do you vibe on it still? Do you count it as an album or remix cd / ep of new stuff.

Where do you place it in his solo work?

Swa

Hey Bboy, something i picked up on that bugs me, the lyrics for 'Is It Scary' contain a mysterious word on all the lyric sites.

'Eccentiarialities'.

Well just google that word. No such word from the looks of things. I've always believed he was singing 'Eccentric Comedies' which is more fitting for the tone of the song.

Marrk said:

Hey Bboy, something i picked up on that bugs me, the lyrics for 'Is It Scary' contain a mysterious word on all the lyric sites.

'Eccentiarialities'.

Well just google that word. No such word from the looks of things. I've always believed he was singing 'Eccentric Comedies' which is more fitting for the tone of the song.

I think the person who typed them up got the word wrong

bboy87 said:

Marrk said:

Hey Bboy, something i picked up on that bugs me, the lyrics for 'Is It Scary' contain a mysterious word on all the lyric sites.

'Eccentiarialities'.

Well just google that word. No such word from the looks of things. I've always believed he was singing 'Eccentric Comedies' which is more fitting for the tone of the song.

I think the person who typed them up got the word wrong

babybugz said:

bboy87 said:

I think the person who typed them up got the word wrong

You know Michael like to make up his own words

Oh really? Chamon now, i don't believe it. Da!

seeingvoices12 said:

he says Eccentric oddities

Possibly.