alphastreet said:

it is true they looked at a bunch of other doctors but they were also looking at mj supposedly getting meds under different names including his own son's name though that turned out false

That was only speculated. I remember looking at stupid shit like Michael having heroin in his home. I think 'Toya said that. They didn't find any heroin (or cocaine) but they found some leftover weed that was possibly Murray's in there. Other than that the usual medical equipment that was there to aid Michael when he went to sleep.

Janet didn't say 3 years ago, she said there was one but could not recall when, she was being very vague. And there were rumors in 2007 about an intervention, but the family released a statement/signed letter to the media refuting those claims from what I recall.

Timmy84 said:

alphastreet said:

it is true they looked at a bunch of other doctors but they were also looking at mj supposedly getting meds under different names including his own son's name though that turned out false

That was only speculated. I remember looking at stupid shit like Michael having heroin in his home. I think 'Toya said that. They didn't find any heroin (or cocaine) but they found some leftover weed that was possibly Murray's in there. Other than that the usual medical equipment that was there to aid Michael when he went to sleep.

can't they say murray was smoking weed and under the infuence when he gave mj propofol too and left him? I hope to god this is used in court! There was so much information to take in that I couldn't take it all in at once and blocked out a lot and now it's all coming back

and those were oxygen tanks, not the stuff needed when giving propofol which he didn't have on him but still administered.

Timmy84 said:

alphastreet said:

it is true they looked at a bunch of other doctors but they were also looking at mj supposedly getting meds under different names including his own son's name though that turned out false

That was only speculated. I remember looking at stupid shit like Michael having heroin in his home. I think 'Toya said that. They didn't find any heroin (or cocaine) but they found some leftover weed that was possibly Murray's in there. Other than that the usual medical equipment that was there to aid Michael when he went to sleep.

If Michael was an heroin addict, he wouldn't have no teeth.

And finally this of all

[Edited 8/25/10 17:15pm]

suga10 said:

MOL said:

Suga, GIVE IT UP. Don't try to fool anyone with what a Dr says in an interview with...Diane Dimond!

For every Susan Etok there is a Dr. Ionache, a Dr. Rebbes, a Tom Mesereau, a cook, dozens of bodyguards, company's representatives, dozens of dancers who claim exactly the opposite.

And there is also an autopsy report.

You still don't say anything about him taking Propofol regularly every night.

What about his sister Janet saying he was very much in denial on Oprah?

Michael was an insomniac and he took Propofol as a way of getting sleep.

Janet who, assumedly, had no contact with Michael claimed he was addicted. She based her addict claims on the argument that Michael was addicted to Propofol. Had Michael been addicted to it and he wouldn't even have been able to move since Propofol is a very powerful sedative. Yet, there are over 100 hours of taped rehearsals which, immeadiately, killes any "addicted to Propofol" theory. This proves that Janet was lying.

By reading Tito's interview with the Mirror it's easy to realize that the only reason as to why the family thinks Michael was addicted was because he kept a distance from them which made them wonder why. That's when the Jacksons, unable to look at their own actions, started thinking that Michael was "hiding something" from them and, eventually, conjectured he was a drug addict.

Janet talked, on Oprah, as if Michael had died as a result of a drug addiction. Well, we know, since the autopsy came out, that Michael's death was a result of an overdose which could have happened regardless of the deceased's condition as an addict or non-addict. That is, Michael didn't die as a result of addiction. He died because the doctor whom he hired to put him to sleep every night, since he was an insomniac, admnistered 40x more Propofol than he should have. That resulted in Michael's death. Yet Janet, just like the rest of the family, talks as if Michael had died as a result of an immense drug addiction. The autopsy proved her wrong and it did, indeed, show two things: 1- Janet is absolutely clueless when it comes to Michael's death. 2- She bases her claims that Michael was an addict on hearsey, guesses and conjectures.

Michael refused to have any contact with his family which propelled them to think he was "hiding something". That's when, unable to look at themselves, the family started conjecturing about drug addiction.

Then Michael dies and they, contrarily to the evidence available, think he died due to drug addiction.

Janet, througout her speech, makes it seem as if Murray was only wrong because he admnistered the drug to Michael, as if he was the drug dealer and Michael the dealer's addicted customer. That proves she is completely CLUELESS. She doesn't seem to know that Murray was only putting Michael to sleep, not feeding his alleged drug addiction. Janet also doesn't seem to realize that the only thing Myurray did wrong was that he gave more Propofol than he should have.

But it's clear she thinks Mochael died as a result of a drug addiction fed by doctors. Well, that has been debunked long ago. Not only was it confirmed that Michael wasn't addicted but also that he dies as a result of an overdose: he was an insomniac who wanted to sleep so he hired a doctor who could make him sleep. The problem was that the doctor he hired was incopetent and admnistered more substance than he should have. But Janet is so out of the blue and so clueless that she assumed that Michael was addicted to Propofol and that the doctor fed his addiction. Well, not the case. And takes all the credibility away from Janet.

Once again...

[Edited 8/25/10 17:21pm]

Please comment on that Klein and Harvey interview, MOL

The fact that Michael was taking Propofol- for no valid reason proves that he was abusing drugs. Propofol is not for sleep, its for putting patients to sleep during surgical procedures. My cousins are anesthesiologists I know this stuff.

[Edited 8/25/10 17:24pm]

Suga, the more you post the more you bury yourself.

Hell, do you even know what Propofol is?

Propofol and related anesthetics were the only drugs found in Michael's system. Yet you claim that Propofol wasn't founded in his system. Once again, you're caught in a lie!

If Michael wasnt addicted to Propofol and that was the only drug caught in his system...how is it possible that he was a drug addict as of his death?

Explain that to me.

suga10 said:

Please comment on that Klein and Harvey interview, MOL.

MOL said:

Militant. Mili-Mili, Yes. Legally it is forbidden to book shows for your client (mainly when there was a contract, a priori) without his/her consent. You know how "the shit" works? And I have more than two brain cells. I'm no artist; I'm a future doctor but one thing is to be in the business, another is to live this fairytale conspiracy. Try the first.

Nope. I'm not essentially saying ANYTHING. If you read the contract (you can find it on ET) you'll see that there is a limit of shows (50). If AEG was so desperate to push Michael...why didn't they made him perform in 85 concerts which is what they initially wanted? Hell, if they puhed him so much, why didn't they force Michael to do 85 shows? AEG directors, at one point, asked Michael if he wanted to do 85 shows. Why, instead of asking (the meanies!), didn't they plain and simple force him to do 85 shows?

Michael was a shrewd businessman. There are many accounts of that. It is a well known fact. Do you really think that a man who has 45 years of career under his belt would be deceived in such a simple a way? Don't you think he hum....actually read the contract? Or was Michael an erratic illetrate?

Look, had AEG added more shows without Michael's consent and there would be a high probability of them being sued or being vulnerable to such. I don't think (but I'm just a crappy future doctor...shall you enlighten me, artist?) AEG would risk its reputation by deceiving the most famous person on Earth. Had Michael sued them and AEG would have been starring in pejorative headlines after pejorative headlines, in every corner of the world, which would taint its image.

Honey: I have Propedeutic to study (I know artists like you are so good that there is no need to do so but future doctors, those meanies, have to). Go to ET and read the "fraudulent" contract.

For instance, in what way EXACTLY, did AEG act "shadily"? AEG have worked with thousands of artists and not even one complained. Besides, AEG is an amazingly rich company...why would they cheat Michael? Why exactly are those valid feelings? IN what way? Why ignore evidence?

Michael himself never said anything.

"People on this forum saw a YouTube video of him saying it."- Who are you trying to fool? Whom, to be more precise? There was only ONE person who claimed to have seen such video. Curiously, it's the same person who is claiming with all certainty that Michael is alive. It's the same person who is repeating EVERYTHING the likes of Latoya and Oxman have said. It's the same person who is claiming absolutely delusional things. It's the same person who swears to God Tohme Tohme signed the TII contract for Michael. The same person who claims Tohme Tohme pushed "pissed and forced looking" Michael to the stage to announce the TII shows. The same person who is grasping at straws to, with absolutely delusional and even laughable arguments, make it seem as if Michael was a deadman walking. Just read Suga's posts and you'll know what I'm talking about. Ad Hominem. Only one person claimed that and that one person has ZERO credibility (just read her/his other posts). The only person who "saw" the video is the person who has been caught lying, plain and simple, more than just a dozen times. Again: who are you trying to fool?

Mili-Mili: Joe is just a victim. Look at what he, Rowe and Oxman have been doing, on a daily basis, since the day Michael told them to get lost. Look at what those three did just 2 hours after Michael's death was announced. Look at what those guys have been doing since the 25th of June. They're just victims, right? The world hates Joe for no apparent reason. Poor man!

I'm not the only person who thinks AEG has absolutely nothing to do with MJ's death. Just ask fans who actually know something about all this.

Michael could come back as a freakin' ghost and tell the world that he holds AEG responsible for his death and you'd find a way to say it was bullshit and actually we should blame Joe Jackson.

Exactly. What unearthly demon would dare to point the finger at Joe after all he has been doing since his beloved son died! Do you even know half of what Joe has been doing, Militant? Half?

Joe is nothing but a loving father. Michael owes his career to him, OK?!

But I'm just a hater, isn't it?

[Edited 8/25/10 16:19pm]

1. No, IT ISN'T. Not if you authorize your representatives to do so on your behalf. I very rarely sign the contracts to play shows myself, and yes, that includes shows booked by corporations like AEG - I've never been booked by AEG for one of their events, but I have by Live Nation, who as I said are a bigger company than AEG in this field. My manager signs them because we have an agreement to do so.

2. It isn't as black and white as you are making it. I'm not saying AEG "forced" him to do 50 shows. I'm saying (despite the contract which I will take a look at) that MJ's understanding of the situation was that he was going to do 10 shows initially and then they would discuss more, then he woke up and they'd booked 50 shows with set dates and sold the tickets. That's what seems to have happened. MJ was not crazy enough to book himself 50 shows straight up like that. He wanted to take things step by step and be rational about it. There's no way he was ready to do 50 shows. Not a chance and you think he didn't know that?

3. For being a medical student one would think you knew how to spell illiterate.

4. You said it yourself... Michael WAS a shrewd businessman. The last few years of his life were peppered with bad business decisions, probably mostly due to shady sycophants and him not knowing who to trust. You paint the picture of Michael and Randy Phillips sitting in a room making agreements and both of them knowing the full picture. Not the case. You know how many people were involved in this deal? Dr. Tohme, Dileo, Branca, other lawyers, and so on. Often in this business the artist knows the LEAST of what's going on. Trust me. My manager is representing Lauryn Hill right now and she's touring. You know how many people are involved in the smallest of deals, the simplest of decisions? You know how hard it is to stay in the loop of what's going on and who's saying what, what's been agreed, what's been signed, etc, etc, etc? Fact is people were taking advantage of Michael, AEG included. Michael was not well emotionally or psychologically, he wasn't sleeping, he wasn't eating properly, he was not in the right frame of mind to deal with this shit. No way, no how. AEG weren't concerned about his wellbeing. Not for shit. Even if that's the only thing they're guilty of - they STILL took advantage. I'm not playing the blame game here and you don't need to make sarcastic comments like "Joe is nothing but a loving father" to me. I'm not saying he's innocent. Pretty much EVERYBODY involved is guilty of taking advantage of Michael, and YES that includes AEG.

MJ was not in any state to sue anybody. This much is obvious. He had NO idea of the intricacies of the deal. He was barely able to handle the creative element of these shows and you think he was up to scratch on every part of the business deal? HELL NO. He was trusting the people around him and the things they were telling him. He was being the trusting person that he always had been and accepting what he was told - "Sign here Michael", "Do this Michael", "You've agreed to do that Michael". He was in no state to be the shrewd businessman he was in the past. Honestly I doubt he even read the contracts. Remember the whole debacle with the charity song? What about the 2Seas Records deal in Bahrain? Are those the actions of a "shrewd businessman"? No, they're the actions of someone surrounded by sycophants and blood-sucking "representatives" who has no fucking clue what he's agreeing to half the time.

If Michael said he didn't agree to xxx amount of shows, somebody would come out of the woodwork and provide some evidence that he did agree to it and Michael would believe them and not investigate further. LOOK at that video suga10 posted. He couldn't remember when and where things happened, he admits medication impaired his judgements. He doesn't remember how long he was on medication, his mind was all over the place. There are SO MANY reports of Michael seeming in a haze, and out of it.

Why would AEG cheat Michael? Same reason as everyone else - money and as much as possible.

Want facts? AEG didn't fucking lose money on this. They made more money with Michael dead - Life Insurance + Payout from Sony for footage + REBOOKING THE VENUE. The O2 hasn't been empty on all the dates Michael was scheduled to play and MOST of the fans did NOT ask for their money back because they kept the tickets as mementos.

5. I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. Yes, I know what Joe has been doing and I never claimed he was innocent or wasn't taking advantage of Michael and I never said he was a victim. So enough with that. Here's the fundamental difference between you and I - you think Joe and Rowe are more guilty than AEG and I don't. Joe's trying to make this situation financially viable for him and always has been, yes. But so far, he's failed. Who has gained the most from what happened... Joe or AEG? Who has lost the most in this situation? Joe. He's lost his son who supported him financially to the point where he's trying to get a claim in the estate on that VERY basis.

We could take a poll right now in this thread and EVERY SINGLE PERSON POSTING IN HERE is going to say there's something suspicious about the way AEG operated and that they TOOK ADVANTAGE OF MICHAEL.

Nobody is going to say that Joe and Leonard Rowe didn't try and take advantage too. But enough with the AEG-apologising. It's tired, unsubstantiated, and nobody in here agrees with you. Fact.

You have been single-handedly apologising for AEG, shooting down anyone who says the slightest thing about them, usually at the expense of various members of the Jackson Family from Joe to Latoya to Randy to Janet for months and it's getting OLD. Yes, yes, whatever, the Jackson Family is the most evil moneyhungry family in history and they're all lazy and live of MJ's money and don't wanna work and don't provide for their children and BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. WE GET IT, YOU DON'T LIKE THEM.

But here's another fact - even if both the Jackson Family and AEG were EQUALLY exploiting Michael..... he CARED about his family and he didn't give a FUCK about AEG.

Everybody in this entire thread is going to support the Jackson Family over AEG except you, no matter how many irrelevant posts you make about how Janet said this about Michael on TV or Latoya is conspiring to make up this story about how Michael was something or other or some shit about Randy.

Oh yeah, I read that Taj Jackson is the only family member with any say on the day-to-day affairs of the Estate. What's your conspiracy about him? Gonna try and find some dirt on him next to say he's just as bad as everyone else in the family and exploiting his Uncle?

MOL said:

Suga, the more you post the more you bury yourself.

Hell, do you even know what Propofol is?

Propofol and related anesthetics were the only drugs found in Michael's system. Yet you claim that Propofol wasn't founded in his system. Once again, you're caught in a lie!

If Michael wasnt addicted to Propofol and that was the only drug caught in his system...how is it possible that he was a drug addict as of his death?

Explain that to me.

Propofol leaves the bloodstream quickly. That's why they could not detect it on the autopsy

MJ was abusing propofol= abusing medication! Propofol is for surgery. He was not getting surgery done. There therefore its drug abuse!

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/propofol/index.html

[Edited 8/25/10 17:29pm]

suga10 said:

Please comment on that Klein and Harvey interview, MOL

The fact that Michael was taking Propofol- for no valid reason proves that he was abusing drugs. Propofol is not for sleep, its for putting patients to sleep during surgical procedures. My cousins are anesthesiologists I know this stuff.

[Edited 8/25/10 17:24pm]

Michael was using Propofol to sleep. It's a well known fact that he was an insomniac who used Propofol in order to be put to sleep. He DID have a valid reason to be using Propofol. He didn't just use it for the sake of doing so. Besides, haven't your cousins told you that Propofol is a non-addictive drug? Having your cousins told you that a person addicted to Propofol can't even walk? If a person addicted to it can't even move why are there hours and hours of taped rehearsals? Explain that to me. Well, I'll help you: Michael wasn't addicted.

Usually, Propofol is used as a knowck out drug used for surgeries, yes.

You said yourself that Michael took Propofol at night. If he was such an addict why did he have timetables? Why did he just took Propofol at night? Strange uh? Mainly when a Propofol addict has to have doses of Propofol from hour to hour.

You don't know more about "this stuff" than I do. I'm almost a doctor so I also know about "this stuff" and, probably, better than you ever will.

suga10 said:

MOL said:

Suga, the more you post the more you bury yourself.

Hell, do you even know what Propofol is?

Propofol and related anesthetics were the only drugs found in Michael's system. Yet you claim that Propofol wasn't founded in his system. Once again, you're caught in a lie!

If Michael wasnt addicted to Propofol and that was the only drug caught in his system...how is it possible that he was a drug addict as of his death?

Explain that to me.

Propofol leaves the bloodstream quickly. That's why they could not detect it on the autopsy

MJ was abusing propofol= abusing medication! Propofol is for surgery. He was not getting surgery done. There therefore its drug abuse!

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/propofol/index.html

Propofol is one of the most widely used drugs for anesthesia. It has been implicated in the death of Michael Jackson and researchers say that abuse of propofol is growing.

Introduced about 20 years ago, propofol quickly became a popular choice for anesthesiologists, replacing sodium pentathol, whose side effects included nausea. Propofol is used for colonoscopies, surgery on hips and broken bones and plastic surgery, where Mr. Jackson might have been given it.

Its benefits in the operating room are many. It wears off quickly, leaves no grogginess or nausea and is not believed to be physically addictive. A white liquid that doctors refer to as "milk of amnesia," the drug is liked by abusers because it induces relaxation or sleep, can cause mild euphoria, sexual fantasies or sexual disinhibition upon waking and leaves the bloodstream so quickly it is difficult to detect. But propofol can be extremely dangerous if not constantly monitored as it is in hospitals because it can slow breathing or lower blood pressure to the point of death. Its effects become compounded by other drugs in a person's system.

At Talbott Recovery Campus in Atlanta, an addiction treatment program, medical professionals who listed propofol among the drugs they were taking grew to 27 in 2008 from 8 in 2006, or 8 percent of those in the program, said Dr. Paul H. Earley, Talbott's medical director.

A 2007 survey found 18 percent of anesthesia training programs reported cases of propofol abuse among employees or trainees, including seven deaths. While the numbers were small compared with other prescription drugs, the results were significantly higher than 10 years earlier.

Law enforcement officials investigating Mr. Jackson's death have subpoenaed medical records from Dr. Conrad Murray, who was with Mr. Jackson when he died, and from other doctors who had treated the singer. The request specified "shipping orders, distribution lists, use records relating to the purchase, transfer, receiving, ordering, delivery and storage of propofol."

Family members had said that Mr. Jackson was taking propofol as a sleep aid. The official toxicology reports in his case have not been made public.

[Edited 8/25/10 17:29pm]

Propofol WAS detected in the autopsy, Suga. Autopsies detect much more than just what is in the bloodstream.

AGAIN: Propofol WAS detected in the autopsy report. Just read it (ET).

Michael used Propofol in order to get some sleep. Everything was monitored by a doctor to make sure it was used Propofol and reached the goal that was to put an insomniac person to sleep. That is not abuse.

[Edited 8/25/10 17:35pm]

MOL said:

suga10 said:

Please comment on that Klein and Harvey interview, MOL

The fact that Michael was taking Propofol- for no valid reason proves that he was abusing drugs. Propofol is not for sleep, its for putting patients to sleep during surgical procedures. My cousins are anesthesiologists I know this stuff.

[Edited 8/25/10 17:24pm]

Michael was using Propofol to sleep. It's a well known fact that he was an insomniac who used Propofol in order to be put to sleep. He DID have a valid reason to be using Propofol. He didn't just use it for the sake of doing so. Besides, haven't your cousins told you that Propofol is a non-addictive drug? Having your cousins told you that a person addicted to Propofol can't even walk? If a person addicted to it can't even move why are there hours and hours of taped rehearsals? Explain that to me. Well, I'll help you: Michael wasn't addicted.

Usually, Propofol is used as a knowck out drug used for surgeries, yes.

You said yourself that Michael took Propofol at night. If he was such an addict why did he have timetables? Why did he just took Propofol at night? Strange uh? Mainly when a Propofol addict has to have doses of Propofol from hour to hour.

You don't know more about "this stuff" than I do. I'm almost a doctor so I also know about "this stuff" and, probably, better than you ever will.

Propofol outside of a hospital setting is UNACCEPTABLE! Period! He was not supposed to have that stuff in his home being administered, and too by a freaking cardiologist. If he had a sleeping problem, he should have went to somebody who specializes in sleeping disorders, not to Dr. Quack, a cardiologist! Stop justifying this behavior. MJ was wrong!

And of course dude was going to take propofol at night- duh! He was going to sleep that time. He was not sleeping during the day!

And my sister is an anthesiologist as well, so I know a lot of stuff! She was literally shaking her head when she heard about what MJ did.

[Edited 8/25/10 17:38pm]

babybugz said:

Timmy84 said:

People arguing to cope with the loss... or at least that's what someone said.

I was just trying to keep it real.

I saw you trrying to distract with pictures and videos .....lmfaoo

yea and i tried to support him, none of us is happy about what happened, I tend to be a bitter person so I was trying to just chill. Lots to be grateful for, and I say that about who EACH of us is as a person, because of Mike.

suga10 said:

MOL said:

Michael was using Propofol to sleep. It's a well known fact that he was an insomniac who used Propofol in order to be put to sleep. He DID have a valid reason to be using Propofol. He didn't just use it for the sake of doing so. Besides, haven't your cousins told you that Propofol is a non-addictive drug? Having your cousins told you that a person addicted to Propofol can't even walk? If a person addicted to it can't even move why are there hours and hours of taped rehearsals? Explain that to me. Well, I'll help you: Michael wasn't addicted.

Usually, Propofol is used as a knowck out drug used for surgeries, yes.

You said yourself that Michael took Propofol at night. If he was such an addict why did he have timetables? Why did he just took Propofol at night? Strange uh? Mainly when a Propofol addict has to have doses of Propofol from hour to hour.

You don't know more about "this stuff" than I do. I'm almost a doctor so I also know about "this stuff" and, probably, better than you ever will.

Propofol outside of a hospital setting is UNACCEPTABLE! Period! He was not supposed to have that stuff in his home being administered, and too by a freaking cardiologist. If he had a sleeping problem, he should have went to somebody who specializes in sleeping disorders, not to Dr. Quack, a cardiologist! Stop justifying this behavior. MJ was wrong!

And of course dude was going to take propofol at night- duh! He was going to sleep that time. He was not sleeping during the day!

And my sister is an anthesiologist as well, so I know a lot of stuff!

He was wrong for not looking for insomnia treatment...but that doesn't make him an addict.

Suga, I'll repeat it slowly: I claimed Michael used Propofol only at night because you accused him of being addicted to it. So, I claimed exactly what you just stated, that he only took Propofol at night because he "was not going to sleep during the day". Yet, you accused him of being addicted to Propofol and, so, I used the "night" argument in order to counter argument your accusation. Was that difficult to understand?

WOW, everybody in your family is an anestheologist. I guess intelligence went to everybody else.

Timmy84 said:

I don't know if he was suffering a cold or going through another vocal transition (I say it's possibly the latter) but he still sounded great here.

That was from the 1975 show in Mexico. I have it on DVD,and it!!

mozfonky said:

babybugz said:

I saw you trrying to distract with pictures and videos .....lmfaoo

yea and i tried to support him, none of us is happy about what happened, I tend to be a bitter person so I was trying to just chill. Lots to be grateful for, and I say that about who EACH of us is as a person, because of Mike.

I know I have a choice to stop reading, but I just feel like throwing things around and breaking something over what could have been. It's driving me crazy cause I know Murray is at fault and getting away with it and people are falling for it being michael's fault though I really really wish he took a different direction too at that point in his life if this was all going to be the end result

sometimes I just wish I could forget michael and move on but I love him too much and this is hurting me so much

[Edited 8/25/10 18:01pm]

angel345 said:

Timmy84 said:

That was only speculated. I remember looking at stupid shit like Michael having heroin in his home. I think 'Toya said that. They didn't find any heroin (or cocaine) but they found some leftover weed that was possibly Murray's in there. Other than that the usual medical equipment that was there to aid Michael when he went to sleep.

If Michael was an heroin addict, he wouldn't have no teeth.

Yeah that rumor was just FLAT OUT ridiculous. I couldn't even believe why 'Toya even SAID that. As for Janet, she didn't really know what was going on. She's used by the family too.

Militant said:

MOL said:

Militant. Mili-Mili, Yes. Legally it is forbidden to book shows for your client (mainly when there was a contract, a priori) without his/her consent. You know how "the shit" works? And I have more than two brain cells. I'm no artist; I'm a future doctor but one thing is to be in the business, another is to live this fairytale conspiracy. Try the first.

Nope. I'm not essentially saying ANYTHING. If you read the contract (you can find it on ET) you'll see that there is a limit of shows (50). If AEG was so desperate to push Michael...why didn't they made him perform in 85 concerts which is what they initially wanted? Hell, if they puhed him so much, why didn't they force Michael to do 85 shows? AEG directors, at one point, asked Michael if he wanted to do 85 shows. Why, instead of asking (the meanies!), didn't they plain and simple force him to do 85 shows?

Michael was a shrewd businessman. There are many accounts of that. It is a well known fact. Do you really think that a man who has 45 years of career under his belt would be deceived in such a simple a way? Don't you think he hum....actually read the contract? Or was Michael an erratic illetrate?

Look, had AEG added more shows without Michael's consent and there would be a high probability of them being sued or being vulnerable to such. I don't think (but I'm just a crappy future doctor...shall you enlighten me, artist?) AEG would risk its reputation by deceiving the most famous person on Earth. Had Michael sued them and AEG would have been starring in pejorative headlines after pejorative headlines, in every corner of the world, which would taint its image.

Honey: I have Propedeutic to study (I know artists like you are so good that there is no need to do so but future doctors, those meanies, have to). Go to ET and read the "fraudulent" contract.

For instance, in what way EXACTLY, did AEG act "shadily"? AEG have worked with thousands of artists and not even one complained. Besides, AEG is an amazingly rich company...why would they cheat Michael? Why exactly are those valid feelings? IN what way? Why ignore evidence?

Michael himself never said anything.

"People on this forum saw a YouTube video of him saying it."- Who are you trying to fool? Whom, to be more precise? There was only ONE person who claimed to have seen such video. Curiously, it's the same person who is claiming with all certainty that Michael is alive. It's the same person who is repeating EVERYTHING the likes of Latoya and Oxman have said. It's the same person who is claiming absolutely delusional things. It's the same person who swears to God Tohme Tohme signed the TII contract for Michael. The same person who claims Tohme Tohme pushed "pissed and forced looking" Michael to the stage to announce the TII shows. The same person who is grasping at straws to, with absolutely delusional and even laughable arguments, make it seem as if Michael was a deadman walking. Just read Suga's posts and you'll know what I'm talking about. Ad Hominem. Only one person claimed that and that one person has ZERO credibility (just read her/his other posts). The only person who "saw" the video is the person who has been caught lying, plain and simple, more than just a dozen times. Again: who are you trying to fool?

Mili-Mili: Joe is just a victim. Look at what he, Rowe and Oxman have been doing, on a daily basis, since the day Michael told them to get lost. Look at what those three did just 2 hours after Michael's death was announced. Look at what those guys have been doing since the 25th of June. They're just victims, right? The world hates Joe for no apparent reason. Poor man!

I'm not the only person who thinks AEG has absolutely nothing to do with MJ's death. Just ask fans who actually know something about all this.

Exactly. What unearthly demon would dare to point the finger at Joe after all he has been doing since his beloved son died! Do you even know half of what Joe has been doing, Militant? Half?

Joe is nothing but a loving father. Michael owes his career to him, OK?!

But I'm just a hater, isn't it?

[Edited 8/25/10 16:19pm]

1. No, IT ISN'T. Not if you authorize your representatives to do so on your behalf. I very rarely sign the contracts to play shows myself, and yes, that includes shows booked by corporations like AEG - I've never been booked by AEG for one of their events, but I have by Live Nation, who as I said are a bigger company than AEG in this field. My manager signs them because we have an agreement to do so.

2. It isn't as black and white as you are making it. I'm not saying AEG "forced" him to do 50 shows. I'm saying (despite the contract which I will take a look at) that MJ's understanding of the situation was that he was going to do 10 shows initially and then they would discuss more, then he woke up and they'd booked 50 shows with set dates and sold the tickets. That's what seems to have happened. MJ was not crazy enough to book himself 50 shows straight up like that. He wanted to take things step by step and be rational about it. There's no way he was ready to do 50 shows. Not a chance and you think he didn't know that?

3. For being a medical student one would think you knew how to spell illiterate.

4. You said it yourself... Michael WAS a shrewd businessman. The last few years of his life were peppered with bad business decisions, probably mostly due to shady sycophants and him not knowing who to trust. You paint the picture of Michael and Randy Phillips sitting in a room making agreements and both of them knowing the full picture. Not the case. You know how many people were involved in this deal? Dr. Tohme, Dileo, Branca, other lawyers, and so on. Often in this business the artist knows the LEAST of what's going on. Trust me. My manager is representing Lauryn Hill right now and she's touring. You know how many people are involved in the smallest of deals, the simplest of decisions? You know how hard it is to stay in the loop of what's going on and who's saying what, what's been agreed, what's been signed, etc, etc, etc? Fact is people were taking advantage of Michael, AEG included. Michael was not well emotionally or psychologically, he wasn't sleeping, he wasn't eating properly, he was not in the right frame of mind to deal with this shit. No way, no how. AEG weren't concerned about his wellbeing. Not for shit. Even if that's the only thing they're guilty of - they STILL took advantage. I'm not playing the blame game here and you don't need to make sarcastic comments like "Joe is nothing but a loving father" to me. I'm not saying he's innocent. Pretty much EVERYBODY involved is guilty of taking advantage of Michael, and YES that includes AEG.

MJ was not in any state to sue anybody. This much is obvious. He had NO idea of the intricacies of the deal. He was barely able to handle the creative element of these shows and you think he was up to scratch on every part of the business deal? HELL NO. He was trusting the people around him and the things they were telling him. He was being the trusting person that he always had been and accepting what he was told - "Sign here Michael", "Do this Michael", "You've agreed to do that Michael". He was in no state to be the shrewd businessman he was in the past. Honestly I doubt he even read the contracts. Remember the whole debacle with the charity song? What about the 2Seas Records deal in Bahrain? Are those the actions of a "shrewd businessman"? No, they're the actions of someone surrounded by sycophants and blood-sucking "representatives" who has no fucking clue what he's agreeing to half the time.

If Michael said he didn't agree to xxx amount of shows, somebody would come out of the woodwork and provide some evidence that he did agree to it and Michael would believe them and not investigate further. LOOK at that video suga10 posted. He couldn't remember when and where things happened, he admits medication impaired his judgements. He doesn't remember how long he was on medication, his mind was all over the place. There are SO MANY reports of Michael seeming in a haze, and out of it.

Why would AEG cheat Michael? Same reason as everyone else - money and as much as possible.

Want facts? AEG didn't fucking lose money on this. They made more money with Michael dead - Life Insurance + Payout from Sony for footage + REBOOKING THE VENUE. The O2 hasn't been empty on all the dates Michael was scheduled to play and MOST of the fans did NOT ask for their money back because they kept the tickets as mementos.

5. I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. Yes, I know what Joe has been doing and I never claimed he was innocent or wasn't taking advantage of Michael and I never said he was a victim. So enough with that. Here's the fundamental difference between you and I - you think Joe and Rowe are more guilty than AEG and I don't. Joe's trying to make this situation financially viable for him and always has been, yes. But so far, he's failed. Who has gained the most from what happened... Joe or AEG? Who has lost the most in this situation? Joe. He's lost his son who supported him financially to the point where he's trying to get a claim in the estate on that VERY basis.

We could take a poll right now in this thread and EVERY SINGLE PERSON POSTING IN HERE is going to say there's something suspicious about the way AEG operated and that they TOOK ADVANTAGE OF MICHAEL.

Nobody is going to say that Joe and Leonard Rowe didn't try and take advantage too. But enough with the AEG-apologising. It's tired, unsubstantiated, and nobody in here agrees with you. Fact.

You have been single-handedly apologising for AEG, shooting down anyone who says the slightest thing about them, usually at the expense of various members of the Jackson Family from Joe to Latoya to Randy to Janet for months and it's getting OLD. Yes, yes, whatever, the Jackson Family is the most evil moneyhungry family in history and they're all lazy and live of MJ's money and don't wanna work and don't provide for their children and BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. WE GET IT, YOU DON'T LIKE THEM.

But here's another fact - even if both the Jackson Family and AEG were EQUALLY exploiting Michael..... he CARED about his family and he didn't give a FUCK about AEG.

Everybody in this entire thread is going to support the Jackson Family over AEG except you, no matter how many irrelevant posts you make about how Janet said this about Michael on TV or Latoya is conspiring to make up this story about how Michael was something or other or some shit about Randy.

Oh yeah, I read that Taj Jackson is the only family member with any say on the day-to-day affairs of the Estate. What's your conspiracy about him? Gonna try and find some dirt on him next to say he's just as bad as everyone else in the family and exploiting his Uncle?

Mili, I did not read your post. I'll do so tomorrow. Here, in my country, it's already time to go to bed so I'll read it tomorrow and, of course, reply.

But there is one thing that caught my attention while reading in "the diagonal".

3. For being a medical student one would think you knew how to spell illiterate.

Shall you know that English is not my first language. Try learning portuguese in three years and, after that, writing enormous texts without a single mistake. I thank you for point out my mistake and I urge you to do so every time you see one. There is no better way to learn English and I'm always ready to learn. But try doing that more comprehensively.

alphastreet said:

I know I have a choice to stop reading, but I just feel like throwing things around and breaking something over what could have been. It's driving me crazy cause I know Murray is at fault and getting away with it and people are falling for it being michael's fault though I really really wish he took a different direction too at that point in his life if this was all going to be the end result

sometimes I just wish I could forget michael and move on but I love him too much and this is hurting me so much

[Edited 8/25/10 18:01pm]

Forget the rumors.

Forget the speculation.

Forget the negativity.

Forget Murray.

But don't ever...

EVER...

EVER IN YOUR LIFE...

don't EVER forget Michael. I surely ain't.

Timmy84 said:

[img:$uid]http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l7pwedZxpn1qcg4pzo1_500.jpg[/img:$uid]

What is this for? Oh please please PLEEEEASE let it be for a blu-ray release!!!

I never will, ever, he will always have my back, but I feel like my attachment over the years has just hurt me too much cause I let it and I myself am self-destructive emotionally. I just feel so upset today especially cause my friend and I were discussing the case last night too and I was strong during that and while reading all this today after waking up it was hitting me again that it's all for real It's like I want to scream but I can't, cause I'm still in shock in a way. I want it to feel like old times again too for selfish reasons

[Edited 8/25/10 18:23pm]

Timmy84 said:

angel345 said:

If Michael was an heroin addict, he wouldn't have no teeth.

Yeah that rumor was just FLAT OUT ridiculous. I couldn't even believe why 'Toya even SAID that. As for Janet, she didn't really know what was going on. She's used by the family too.

Micheal didn't have to worry about dentures for the rest of his life.

Michael was a shrewd businessman. There are many accounts of that. It is a well known fact. Do you really think that a man who has 45 years of career under his belt would be deceived in such a simple a way? Don't you think he hum....actually read the contract? Or was Michael an erratic illetrate?

Look, had AEG added more shows without Michael's consent and there would be a high probability of them being sued or being vulnerable to such. I don't think (but I'm just a crappy future doctor...shall you enlighten me, artist?) AEG would risk its reputation by deceiving the most famous person on Earth. Had Michael sued them and AEG would have been starring in pejorative headlines after pejorative headlines, in every corner of the world, which would taint its image.

Shrewd Businessman my foot- at least ever since the mid 90s. Prior to History he was a good businessman. Around 1995, things started going downhill.

History was a far bigger success in Europe than in the United States. The only single that was a major success here was- You Are Not Alone and Scream to some extent. Otherwise no one cared about the other singles. Michael was so powerful, that he couldn't make History a major success in the US- that was one big failure of his as a businessman.

Invincible was not up to expectations for a Michael Jackson project- but that was obviously because of the whole crap that went on between him and Sony at that time. You Rock My World was a replica of Smooth Criminal all over again. Butterfly and Cry as singles now- come on!

Post 2000 was a disaster for MJ as a businessman really. Thriller 25 was the only great project in my opinion- with assistance on the part of Peter Lopez.

[Edited 8/25/10 18:57pm]

EmeraldSkies said:

Timmy84 said:

[img:$uid]http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l7pwedZxpn1qcg4pzo1_500.jpg[/img:$uid]

What is this for? Oh please please PLEEEEASE let it be for a blu-ray release!!!

I think it's just art. Who knows though?

Thriller Book? Deleted scenes of Thriller or Thriller in 3D. you have to wonder

[Edited 8/25/10 19:01pm]

angel345 said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah that rumor was just FLAT OUT ridiculous. I couldn't even believe why 'Toya even SAID that. As for Janet, she didn't really know what was going on. She's used by the family too.

Micheal didn't have to worry about dentures for the rest of his life.

I meant to say for all of his life

Timmy84 said:

babybugz said:

I saw you trrying to distract with pictures and videos .....lmfaoo

Yeah because people were going on and on and on about this and that. I'm TIRED of it.

Thank you for that, by the way I know something was up when this thread was 6 pages in since I last checked yesterday I just scrolled to the pictures/videos you posted. Good stuff and nice finds!!!