I keep reading in many music forums about this or that artist "selling-out", "being a sellout" (in a negative way I think)... I'm not sure of the meaning of the expression.. Whats that supposed to mean?

A lot of people call others "sellouts" when they achieve mainstream success...which is ridiculous because that's really what every artists wants.

Most times it is simply used out of jealousy.

To use Prince as an example some of his pre Purple Rain fanbase accused him of selling out with that album/movie.

Some fans thought that Nat King Cole sold out when he stopped recording jazz music and started recording pop music.

Some Metallica fans though that they sold out in 1991 with the Metallica album.

Often when a band or artist changes their sound they are accused of selling out.

Someone, I forgot who, said that they were also accused of being a sellout. His response was, "Yeah I'm selling out, I'm selling out records and concert tickets."

FrenchGuy said:

I keep reading in many music forums about this or that artist "selling-out", "being a sellout" (in a negative way I think)... I'm not sure of the meaning of the expression.. Whats that supposed to mean?

Musically speaking......

"Selling Out" is when an recording artist changes his/her musical sound AND/OR philosophy for the sheer purpose of crossing over to a mainstream pop culture audience. In most cases, it results in an increase of fanbase AND finanical profits for the recording artist, but at the expense of potentially losing some members of his/her original grassroot level fans.

EXAMPLES OF ARTISTS THAT SOLD OUT IN MUSIC HISTORY:

The Black Eyed Peas (Fergie era)

Michael Jackson (post-Thriller?)

Prince (post-Purple Rain)

M.C. Hammer

Vanilla Ice

Kool & The Gang (JT Taylor era)

Ronald Isley (Mr. Bigg era)

Kanye West (Roc Nation era)

The Calloways (after leaving Midnight Star)

Metallica

Herbie Hancock (according to jazz purists, anything outside of jazz)

.......and pretty much every rap artist after 1993 that has crossover to mainstream at the expensive of abandoning the phiolsophy of real hip-hop/rap culture.

[Edited 8/15/10 11:20am]

rialb said:

To use Prince as an example some of his pre Purple Rain fanbase accused him of selling out with that album/movie.

Some fans thought that Nat King Cole sold out when he stopped recording jazz music and started recording pop music.

Some Metallica fans though that they sold out in 1991 with the Metallica album.

Often when a band or artist changes their sound they are accused of selling out.

Most metal purists believe Metallica sold out the moment the band toned-down their thrash metal sound in exchange for actually writing sensible song lyrics throught the Metallica album.

But in my opinion, Metallica really sold out when they sued Napster!

I say that believe at that point, the band that was one consider to be musical rebels within metal were now looking AND talking corporate. All 4 band members even got hair cuts (which was the final blow to every metal fans that believes in the tradition of having long hair).

Timmy84 said:

Someone, I forgot who, said that they were also accused of being a sellout. His response was, "Yeah I'm selling out, I'm selling out records and concert tickets."

Possibly the Metallica Behind The Music where Jason Newsted mentions that, yes, they do sell-out every venue they play. Or something like that.

Strange thing about Metallica is that they did sell-out, but they did so AFTER they had already achieved massive, MASSIVE success.

As far as the meaning of the word, I agree with what Tony posted up above there.

Unfortunately it's also a tag that usually gets thrown at any bad who starts of indie and then signs with a major. In that case I think it's nonsense. An example of that would be Death Cab For Cutie. They had an entire catalogue of albums before they ever signed with a major. Unfortunately for them, they were completely underground. But that's something that a lot of their fans loved about them because you feel like you're part of a small, secret club. Once they signed with a major they had big hit single and a platinum selling album (or two now, I think). They look the same, their music sounds the same, but they were still labeled sell-outs.

[Edited 8/15/10 11:46am]

TonyVanDam said:

EXAMPLES OF ARTISTS THAT SOLD OUT IN MUSIC HISTORY:

Prince (post-Purple Rain)

This is completely and utterly NOT TRUE. Prince is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of a sellout.

If Prince had sold-out, he would have looked at the success of "Purple Rain" and said to himself "Hey! This works! I'm going to make another album that sounds exactly the same!"

But what did he do? He made a artsy, uncommercial, retro throwback record with bits of world music (the title track), Beatles-esque psychdelic pop (Paisley Park), etc. This was the anti-thesis to Purple Rain. It was definitely not made for commercial success.

Hell, Prince didn't even want to push a single. The album was sent to radio stations with the instructions to "play whatever you like". The result? They didn't play anything, because it just confused the hell out of them. Warners got scared and basically forced Prince to do a video for "Raspberry Beret" which they felt to be the most radio-friendly song. The second single from the album - "Pop Life" didn't even get a music video, again indicating that Prince didn't want to play the commercial game.

I don't believe Prince has ever done anything where people could legitimately call him a sellout. He's always marched to the beat of his own drum and done what he wants to do.

My brother in-law HATES Bowie's Let's Dance era for this.

Militant said:

TonyVanDam said:

EXAMPLES OF ARTISTS THAT SOLD OUT IN MUSIC HISTORY:

Prince (post-Purple Rain)

This is completely and utterly NOT TRUE. Prince is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of a sellout.

If Prince had sold-out, he would have looked at the success of "Purple Rain" and said to himself "Hey! This works! I'm going to make another album that sounds exactly the same!"

But what did he do? He made a artsy, uncommercial, retro throwback record with bits of world music (the title track), Beatles-esque psychdelic pop (Paisley Park), etc. This was the anti-thesis to Purple Rain. It was definitely not made for commercial success.

Hell, Prince didn't even want to push a single. The album was sent to radio stations with the instructions to "play whatever you like". The result? They didn't play anything, because it just confused the hell out of them. Warners got scared and basically forced Prince to do a video for "Raspberry Beret" which they felt to be the most radio-friendly song. The second single from the album - "Pop Life" didn't even get a music video, again indicating that Prince didn't want to play the commercial game.

I don't believe Prince has ever done anything where people could legitimately call him a sellout. He's always marched to the beat of his own drum and done what he wants to do.

Some people would argue that the Diamonds and Pearls album was a bit of a sellout and that Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic was a failed sellout.

I'm not sure exactly what it was referencing but in the Emancipation booklet each song has a little comment after it, presumably written by Prince. The comment after "White Mansion" is "In a perfect universe-dreams come true. Sellout? never again!" Was this Prince admitting that in the past he considered himself a sellout? Who knows. It was just after he left WB so maybe he was taking shots at them and saying that they made him a sellout?

Santana

any artist that makes money is a sellout.

Acts/bands/artists who embrace with open arms the sounds/production heard in the mainstream radio... many times the final product is uneven (I mean, bad, weak songs) but the album is successful just because its usually well received by the mainstrem public...

[Edited 8/15/10 13:25pm]

There's nothing wrong with going mainstream as long as the music is decent or listenable. The artist is trying to sell records and get paid right lol.

I think selling out is more a function of marketing than music... people can be sold anything... people can be made to like anything...

I see the " Selling Out" term more in the Hip Hop Community especially when it comes to mixtapes . The mixtapes are usually better than the album.

When there's no mo' tikets left at the box office!

Ultimately I think it's about later -- sometimes even decades so –- wishing for a remix on choices made.

But more often than not, including among professional critics, it seems to be when our carefully constructed personal truth built for another collapses beneath the weight.

babybugz said:

I see the " Selling Out" term more in the Hip Hop Community especially when it comes to mixtapes . The mixtapes are usually better than the album.

Mixtapes is for the streets, albums are for "The People" which can be subjective.

JustErin said:

A lot of people call others "sellouts" when they achieve mainstream success...which is ridiculous because that's really what every artists wants.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

babybugz said:

I see the " Selling Out" term more in the Hip Hop Community especially when it comes to mixtapes . The mixtapes are usually better than the album.

Mixtapes is for the streets, albums are for "The People" which can be subjective.

I know but I see alot of people compare mixtapes and albums when it shouldn't be compared lol.

When a black artist goes pop that's considered selling out to some

rialb said:

Militant said:

This is completely and utterly NOT TRUE. Prince is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of a sellout.

If Prince had sold-out, he would have looked at the success of "Purple Rain" and said to himself "Hey! This works! I'm going to make another album that sounds exactly the same!"

But what did he do? He made a artsy, uncommercial, retro throwback record with bits of world music (the title track), Beatles-esque psychdelic pop (Paisley Park), etc. This was the anti-thesis to Purple Rain. It was definitely not made for commercial success.

Hell, Prince didn't even want to push a single. The album was sent to radio stations with the instructions to "play whatever you like". The result? They didn't play anything, because it just confused the hell out of them. Warners got scared and basically forced Prince to do a video for "Raspberry Beret" which they felt to be the most radio-friendly song. The second single from the album - "Pop Life" didn't even get a music video, again indicating that Prince didn't want to play the commercial game.

I don't believe Prince has ever done anything where people could legitimately call him a sellout. He's always marched to the beat of his own drum and done what he wants to do.

Some people would argue that the Diamonds and Pearls album was a bit of a sellout and that Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic was a failed sellout.

I'm not sure exactly what it was referencing but in the Emancipation booklet each song has a little comment after it, presumably written by Prince. The comment after "White Mansion" is "In a perfect universe-dreams come true. Sellout? never again!" Was this Prince admitting that in the past he considered himself a sellout? Who knows. It was just after he left WB so maybe he was taking shots at them and saying that they made him a sellout?

I thought it was strange that in the 80s Prince was so against the grain, and creating musical trends that people copied, and even going so far in "Dead On It" 2 kinda condemn rappers and rap music (even Alan Leeds has said Prince thought it would be a passing trend"), but then after slipping record sales and running the risk of being seen as less cutting edge and "old" (by the standards of the record buying youth), all of a sudden the Nude tour and the "Diamonds & Pearls" album, he's incorporating hip-hop and rappers and dancers in2 his band trying 2 remain relevant in an era of Nirvana and NWA. I've always felt that was a sellout move on his part. The whole "homeboy in high-heels" thing? Not buying it...

Militant said:

TonyVanDam said:

EXAMPLES OF ARTISTS THAT SOLD OUT IN MUSIC HISTORY:

Prince (post-Purple Rain)

This is completely and utterly NOT TRUE. Prince is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of a sellout.

If Prince had sold-out, he would have looked at the success of "Purple Rain" and said to himself "Hey! This works! I'm going to make another album that sounds exactly the same!"

But what did he do? He made a artsy, uncommercial, retro throwback record with bits of world music (the title track), Beatles-esque psychdelic pop (Paisley Park), etc. This was the anti-thesis to Purple Rain. It was definitely not made for commercial success.

Hell, Prince didn't even want to push a single. The album was sent to radio stations with the instructions to "play whatever you like". The result? They didn't play anything, because it just confused the hell out of them. Warners got scared and basically forced Prince to do a video for "Raspberry Beret" which they felt to be the most radio-friendly song. The second single from the album - "Pop Life" didn't even get a music video, again indicating that Prince didn't want to play the commercial game.

I don't believe Prince has ever done anything where people could legitimately call him a sellout. He's always marched to the beat of his own drum and done what he wants to do.

I know that Prince didn't sellout (per se). YOU know Prince didn't sellout.

But there are plenty of funk purists that have said years ago that Prince definitely sold out the moment he stop using the MPLS sound and never looked back.

Cinnie said:

My brother in-law HATES Bowie's Let's Dance era for this.

Your in-law might believe that Bowie's Low album is a masterpiece like many Prince die-hards think the album 1999 is Prince's masterpiece.

Mindbells9 said:

but then after slipping record sales and running the risk of being seen as less cutting edge and "old" (by the standards of the record buying youth), all of a sudden the Nude tour and the "Diamonds & Pearls" album, he's incorporating hip-hop and rappers and dancers in2 his band trying 2 remain relevant in an era of Nirvana and NWA. I've always felt that was a sellout move on his part.

I understand how it could be viewed that way, but from my perspective, he'd only be a sellout if he didn't like hip-hop. But he obviously did, and it's not like his attempts at making hip-hop were unsuccessful. As I tweeted just last week, "Gett Off" jams harder than most hip-hop of the 90's.

As for "Dead On It", it hadn't been officially released at that time since Prince had cancelled "The Black Album", and the only reason it came out on '94 was so Prince could get out of the contract quicker. Sure, when he recorded that track he might have been feeling threatened by the genre, but that feeling soon passed, as later that same year he included Sheila's rap on "It's Gonna Be A Beautiful Night", and Cat's rap on "Alphabet St" the following year.

I don't think Prince changed his band line-up simply in order to "stay relevant". The incorporation of more hip-hop into Prince's sound was simply the natural evolution of what was going on. Prince ALWAYS had a part of whatever was the cutting-edge in music at the time, whether that's "Dirty Mind"'s punk influences or the New Wave/New Romantic influences of "Purple Rain"

By that logic, Prince would be a sellout for incorporating New Wave influences into the Purple Rain album and movie, despite having said "We Don't Like New Wave" at the end of "Onedayi'mgonnabesomebody" from "What Time Is It?" in 1982.

As for "slipping record sales"..... ummm.... what? Prince's record sales were NOT slipping. Prior to "Diamonds & Pearls" you had "Graffiti Bridge" which sold well, although it would have sold more had the movie not confused the hell out of people. Prior to that you had the "Batman" album which sold very well indeed, and prior to that you had "Lovesexy" which sold incredibly well overseas, but not so well in the US because of the country being so conservative and many record stores refusing to even stock the record due to the cover. I'm sure that had a knock-on effect with more conservative type people not wanting to be seen buying it, too. Prior to that, "Sign O The Times" sold well, as did "Parade".

Of course, "Diamonds & Pearls" was very commercially successful, but all evidence points towards this being a result of it having a lot more promotion, not to mention the very important fact that Prince had by this point hired a man who knew more than a thing or two about selling records - Michael Jackson's former manager Frank Dileo.

So, no, I don't agree that that he sold out.

Cinnie said:

My brother in-law HATES Bowie's Let's Dance era for this.

I love Bowie's Let's Dance, China Girl, Modern Love, Cat People (Putting Out Fire)... produced by the guy from Chic, forgot his name right now :

Let's Dance was my first Bowie album.

To me a sellout is just someone jumping in the business for that quick fix and than jumping back out and going into acting or modeling or whatever. If you are a musician it comes in all levels of success and not "commercial success" i mean Elton John was all over the place from 1970-1979 in terms of charts and tours but that wasnt because of selling out, that was his commercial peak when the people dug him in droves. Now people have often lumped in bands like u2 and REM and Inxs all who didnt have "commercial" success but then all of a sudden did, this too is not selling out, because they were doing what they artistically felt at the time, i mean "Kick" and "joshua tree" and "Out of time" are 3 great albums by 3 great artists that just happen to sell 10's of millions worlwide, thats not selling out, thats just catching that wave after waiting so long. Selling out is simply doing something to be "down" but isnt what you want to do.

thedance said:

Cinnie said:

My brother in-law HATES Bowie's Let's Dance era for this.

I love Bowie's Let's Dance, China Girl, Modern Love, Cat People (Putting Out Fire)... produced by the guy from Chic, forgot his name right now :

Let's Dance was my first Bowie album.

Nile Rodgers

Recording contract w/major label = sellout.