As someone who enjoys Kool and The Gang's early 70s work,as well as their polished 80s music,even I have to admit that "Celebration" is terrible.I never liked that song.

phunkdaddy said:

Timmy84 said:

And no, almost everyone thinks early '70s KATG was their best period. As do I.

Most definitely. I hope i don't hurt anyone's feelings by saying this but

I wish Celebration would be put to rest.

Let me do it! Oh, PLEASE let me do it!

[img:$uid]http://i34.tinypic.com/biq7g5.jpg[/img:$uid]

Timmy84 said:

phunkdaddy said:

I think most here have already agreed that Kool & the Gang's early 70's period was

much tighter than the polished sound they adopted in the 79 through 80's period. I

recently discovered some earlier stuff i hadn't heard from the band a few years ago.

Even on the more polished Ladies Night, Robert "Kool's bass licks on that and other

latter 80's songs are tight and legendary. I'll exclude Celebration because i know

that's a vomit pig for a lot of funk fans.

I listened to some of the 45's you posted and they are cool. Most are more of that

polished funk. For someone like Vainandy and even myself at times we prefer the

funk to be hard.

I consider "Celebration" to be their albatross. Absolutely one of the worst songs of all time. OBVIOUSLY not the same group who did either "Funky Stuff" OR "Ladies' Night". They still had some tight grooves in the late '70s and early '80s.

When I listen to Kool & The Gang greatest hits, Celebration is NEVER played on my computer OR boom box.

BlaqueKnight said:

minneapolisFunq said:

You are such an ignorant fucking dumbass

seriously, atleast you finally said what you have been wanting to say ever since U first jumped on my dick. bitch ass old man catching feelings over MY opinions. how sad.

"true funk" and "Pure funk" are subjective terms.

You can't just count out those 'exceptions' because you prefer a different type of funk.

With your logic Prince would have been moving closer to 'real 'funk, he moved away from synths and brought in the live horns.

I can find R&B from that era that Is far from funky, to throw it all into the same category is another stupid generalization. (whats new with you)

The music evolved and sadly it failed to continue its growth in the 90s.

As others have stated, Troutman and a few other select groups still put out some nice jams. 4 example, Bridging the Gap has a grip of dope joints.

*Midas Touch is dope btw, that bassline is off the hook

Your opinions of me are insignificant. I won't even bother with a retort.

Your rant is off base and discounted nothing I said.

Oh, and I actually knew Roger, kid. There is nothing you can lecture me about him or his music.

And Midas Touch was some bullshit. It was pop R&B at the time - on par with what Chris Brown is doing today.

You have no perspective of the tone of the culture back then. That's why you come to the conclusions you do. You don't know what ELSE was being played and what everybody was into at the time.

Lol, you are so fucking sad.

Your opinions hold more value because U "knew" Roger and U prefer an older style of Funk?

Fuck, you are stupid, and I find it really lame that U only posted in this thread to attack my personal taste.

Does it really matter if I wasn't around? I can still listen to the music and thats all that matters.

It's already clear that U have disdain for the 80s style so what's the point in trying to accentuate that any further?

anyways, fuck you

This thread is so off track now

[Edited 8/7/10 17:12pm]

Militant said:

MrSoulpower said:

I was about to respond to your other points, but when I came accross this ^^ (see bold), I realized that our understanding of Funk and feeling is so fundamentally different, we'll never get to agree.

I think you are right. These are essentially different genres that have a few things in common.

What I don't like is the condescending attitude that you have displayed a little bit (and that people who prefer older versions of a genre tend to do across the board), that synth-funk is somehow "not real funk" or is in some way inferior to other types of funk.

That isn't the case at all. Maybe, because you love the earlier funk so much you feel it was somewhat diminished by electro and synth funk and feel bitter towards it.....and that's fine, but that doesn't excuse you from having an attitude or superiority complex about it.

Let's just agree to disagree and move on. Peace bro.

Two of the same debates in one thread

One of my favorite Kool & The Gang songs!

MrSoulpower said:

BlaqueKnight said:

phunkdaddy said:

Most definitely. I hope i don't hurt anyone's feelings by saying this but

I wish Celebration would be put to rest.

Let me do it! Oh, PLEASE let me do it!

[img:$uid]http://i34.tinypic.com/biq7g5.jpg[/img:$uid]

Go ahead.

LoveIsTheMessage said:

One of my favorite Kool & The Gang songs!

MrSoulpower said:

I have that 45

Cinnie said:

I have that 45

Funk can return to prominence when some woman pushes the next Brother's Johnson out of her va-hin-a.

Like I said in my first post on this thread: BASS GUITAR.

BlaqueKnight said:

Like I said in my first post on this thread: BASS GUITAR.

The Red Hot Chili Peppers have proven that slappy funk bass has its place in the mainstream arena without being dumbed down.

I could also go for some chunky ass synth bass I.E. Zapp and Roger

Also synthwizzards like Bernie Worrell and Junie Morrison already added that phat synthbass to P-Funk in the late 70's.

In an early 80's funkjam from Don Blackman was another funktional bass-synth added. The Moog-bass was a popular keyboard.

It all depends on how slick you can add that phat sound into the mix.

Keyboard-player Chuckii Booker proved still to throw down around 1992. The albumtitle-track "Niice N' Wiild" contains him doing rediculous double-layered chords on keys,

adding a synth-bass, and on top of that slapping on a bass-guitar by Derek "DOA" Allen (who performed later years with Morris & The Time) : Niice N' Wiild

[Edited 8/9/10 13:04pm]

MrSoulpower said:

vainandy said:

Funk of the mid to late 1970s and early 1980s just sounded more advanced to another level, much less jazz influenced, and very funky and danceable. I guess the best way to explain it is to compare it to the way rock fans love their rock. They rave about their rock beginning with the 1960s with The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, The Rolling Stones and folks like that but rock was around in the 1950s also but sounded much more primitive. You rarely hear them mention that they love this or that artist from the 1950s.

Just had to address this ... I know where you are trying to go with this, but I don't agree. The earliest Funk artist, the man who pioneered it, is James Brown. His early Funk from around 167/68 wasn't primitive .. it remains the tightest and most sophisticated Funk out there, and nobody - I mean NOBODY - beats James Brown when it comes to Funk. Just listen to "There was a time" from the second "Live in the Apollo" album and you'll know what I mean. Late 1970s and early 1980s Funk was more advanced regarding recording technology. But musically, it was much simpler, much more stale and more watered down - thanks to the impact that Disco had on Funk. After all, the music you're referring to was made to appeal to the mainstream, while early Funk was not. Nothing Zapp has ever released will reach the complexity and sophististication of a James Brown horn arrangement, and no drum computer will ever reproduce the energy of drummers like Clyde Stubblefield, Melvin Parker or Jab'o Starks. How you can call that "primitive" is beyond me.

In that sense, early Funk was and is extremely danceable ... believe me, I see it every night on the dancefloor when I DJ. Early Funk has an energy and edge to it that cannot be matched by later Funk ... If you play a set of rare early, high energy Funk and switch to Zapp, it's guaranteed to kill the dancefloor ...

I think that you're a Disco fan ... and you like your Funk disco-ish, but you ignore that Disco was a serious blow to Funk, and it took Funk artists over a decade to recover from the damage Disco has done to this music. For a while, in the 1980s, it really looked like Funk was about to die.

I'm a huge disco fan and disco was my first love. It was because of disco's death that I converted completely over to black radio in late 1979/early 1980 when white radio not only stopped playing it but started bashing it also. I searched the radio dial craving some disco and came across the black stations that were not only playing the disco songs I was already familiar with from white radio, but they were also playing disco songs such as "Move You Boogie Body" by The Barkays and "It's A Disco Night" by The Isley Brothers that I had not been exposed to on white radio. Then I started hearing jams like "Shake Your Pants" by Cameo, "Firecracker" by Mass Production, "All Night Thing" by The Invisible Man's Band coming out brand new only on black radio after disco's death and I knew that black radio was definately the place for me. It was like the disco era had never ended but only became more funky than it previously was.

As more years went by in the early 1980s, I was into black radio exclusively. You are right, disco definately had a lasting impact on the funk of the early 1980s because I don't think that funk jams like "Let It Whip" by The Dazz Band, "Operator" by Midnight Star, "I Know You Got Another" by The Reddings, "You're The One For Me" by D Train, etc. would have ever been made if disco had never occurred a few years earlier. Disco just seemed to speed the funk up and modernize the sound and get it further away from jazz. I didn't see it coming to and end until 1985 when Shitney Houston made her big splash doing adult contemporary and watered down fast R&B songs. You wanna talk about watered down, some shit like "How Will I Know" is definately some watered down shit.

I don't think funk ever recovered, at least not the kind of funk I was looking for anyway. I remember in the 1990s, there was groups like Brand New Heavies and Jamiroquai but they had a more early 1970s sound and hints of jazz in their music which was definately not what I wanted. When Jamiroquai sped things up the 2000s and started going towards a faster, more "disco" tempo and feel, that's when I started loving their music but I hated their 1990s stuff. It was too jazzy or "artsy" sounding for me.

.

.

.

[Edited 8/9/10 11:46am]

vainandy said:

MrSoulpower said:

Just had to address this ... I know where you are trying to go with this, but I don't agree. The earliest Funk artist, the man who pioneered it, is James Brown. His early Funk from around 167/68 wasn't primitive .. it remains the tightest and most sophisticated Funk out there, and nobody - I mean NOBODY - beats James Brown when it comes to Funk. Just listen to "There was a time" from the second "Live in the Apollo" album and you'll know what I mean. Late 1970s and early 1980s Funk was more advanced regarding recording technology. But musically, it was much simpler, much more stale and more watered down - thanks to the impact that Disco had on Funk. After all, the music you're referring to was made to appeal to the mainstream, while early Funk was not. Nothing Zapp has ever released will reach the complexity and sophististication of a James Brown horn arrangement, and no drum computer will ever reproduce the energy of drummers like Clyde Stubblefield, Melvin Parker or Jab'o Starks. How you can call that "primitive" is beyond me.

In that sense, early Funk was and is extremely danceable ... believe me, I see it every night on the dancefloor when I DJ. Early Funk has an energy and edge to it that cannot be matched by later Funk ... If you play a set of rare early, high energy Funk and switch to Zapp, it's guaranteed to kill the dancefloor ...

I think that you're a Disco fan ... and you like your Funk disco-ish, but you ignore that Disco was a serious blow to Funk, and it took Funk artists over a decade to recover from the damage Disco has done to this music. For a while, in the 1980s, it really looked like Funk was about to die.

I'm a huge disco fan and disco was my first love. It was because of disco's death that I converted completely over to black radio in late 1979/early 1980 when white radio not only stopped playing it but started bashing it also. I searched the radio dial craving some disco and came across the black stations that were not only playing the disco songs I was already familiar with from white radio, but they were also playing disco songs such as "Move You Boogie Body" by The Barkays and "It's A Disco Night" by The Isley Brothers that I had not been exposed to on white radio. Then I started jams like "Shake Your Pants" by Cameo, "Firecracker" by Mass Production, "All Night Thing" by The Invisible Man's Band coming out brand new only on black radio after disco's death and I knew that black radio was definately the place for me. It was like the disco era had never ended but only became more funky than it previously was.

As more years went by in the early 1980s, I was into black radio exclusively. You are right, disco definately had a lasting impact on the funk of the early 1980s because I don't think that funk jams like "Let It Whip" by The Dazz Band, "Operator" by Midnight Star, "I Know You Got Another" by The Reddings, "You're The One For Me" by D Train, etc. would have ever been made if disco had never occurred a few years earlier. Disco just seemed to speed the funk up and modernize the sound and get it further away from jazz. I didn't see it coming to and end until 1985 when Shitney Houston made her big splash doing adult contemporary and watered down fast R&B songs. You wanna talk about watered down, some shit like "How Will I Know" is definately some watered down shit.

I don't think funk ever recovered, at least not the kind of funk I was looking for anyway. I remember in the 1990s, there was groups like Brand New Heavies and Jamiroquai but they had a more early 1970s sound and hints of jazz in their music which was definately not what I wanted. When Jamiroquai sped things up the 2000s and started going towards a faster, more "disco" tempo and feel, that's when I started loving their music but I hated their 1990s stuff. It was too jazzy or "artsy" sounding for me.

I remember when Jamiroquai had that one song, man that shit was bananas. Gotta look for it but it was quite popular when it came out.

"Ain't nothin wrong with disco....it goes along with the funk....if you don't like it, don't get mad at US."

Cameo, 1979

MrSoulpower said:

TonyVanDam said:

James Brown's funk was not primitive. But it is definitely a classic example of horn-driven funk. I say the same thing about Kool & The Gang (pre-JT Taylor) & Tower Of Power.

Now if you're a fan of The Funk at its most primitive state, listen to The Meters. THIS classic funk band had no horn section OR synths neither. And to top it all off, The Meters' funk was downtempo most of the time (hence where Dr. Dre/Warren G. borrowed the downtempo idea from for G-Funk).

Now don't get it twisted. I always liked The Meters, given that they're from New Orleans just like me. But their funk has absolutely no ounce of advance technology in it. To my ears, that is primitive.

Just saying.

Well, if you use the word "primitive" to decsribe raw and uncut music free of technological advancements, then OK ... I'd agree. But usually, the word primitive has a rather negative association ... like "unskilled".

For the record, I'm a huge Meters fan, but these guys were a commerical hit compared to most of the obscure Funk artists that recorded in those days.

Not being as advanced as the modern technologies of the late 1970s and early 1980s sound is definately what I meant when I said early 1970s funk sounded primitive to my ears. It had not advanced into that newer sound that came later. I would never call them unskilled whatsoever because they were definately skilled. You just totally misunderstood what I meant when I said "primitive", that's all. The music I love myself would be considered primitive considering the advancements of computers making music these days. But I'll take primitive over those shit hop advancements any day. They've become so advanced that they don't have to play any instruments. At least we played instruments along with our advancements.

Uh...I don't give a damn what none of you motherfuckers say, I love "Celebration". It's one of my favorites from Kool and The Gang.

If you wanna talk some weak shit, lets talk about "Misled" and "Joanna". Now, that's some weak shit.

JamFanHot said:

"Ain't nothin wrong with disco....it goes along with the funk....if you don't like it, don't get mad at US."

Cameo, 1979

YOU TELL 'EM CAMEO!

vainandy said:

Uh...I don't give a damn what none of you motherfuckers say, I love "Celebration". It's one of my favorites from Kool and The Gang.

If you wanna talk some weak shit, lets talk about "Misled" and "Joanna". Now, that's some weak shit.

Well they're garbage anyway.

A friend of mine had a good line about this topic.....

"original funk was just heroin. By the time disco hit it, it was a speedball. Disco just added the coke."

vainandy said:

MrSoulpower said:

Well, if you use the word "primitive" to decsribe raw and uncut music free of technological advancements, then OK ... I'd agree. But usually, the word primitive has a rather negative association ... like "unskilled".

For the record, I'm a huge Meters fan, but these guys were a commerical hit compared to most of the obscure Funk artists that recorded in those days.

Not being as advanced as the modern technologies of the late 1970s and early 1980s sound is definately what I meant when I said early 1970s funk sounded primitive to my ears. It had not advanced into that newer sound that came later. I would never call them unskilled whatsoever because they were definately skilled. You just totally misunderstood what I meant when I said "primitive", that's all. The music I love myself would be considered primitive considering the advancements of computers making music these days. But I'll take primitive over those shit hop advancements any day. They've become so advanced that they don't have to play any instruments. At least we played instruments along with our advancements.

BREAKING NEWS: Autotunes is NOT an instrument.

JamFanHot said:

A friend of mine had a good line about this topic.....

"original funk was just heroin. By the time disco hit it, it was a speedball. Disco just added the coke."

Timmy84 said:

vainandy said:

Uh...I don't give a damn what none of you motherfuckers say, I love "Celebration". It's one of my favorites from Kool and The Gang.

If you wanna talk some weak shit, lets talk about "Misled" and "Joanna". Now, that's some weak shit.

Well they're garbage anyway.

When it comes to Kool and The Gang, I would say my favorite song from them is probably "Celebration". I just loved the hell out of the song when it first came out. It was such a fun song and the other songs on the radio at that time were so fun also. I think it gets a bad rap because it's been so damned overplayed throughout the years and a lot of pop fans act like it's the only song the group ever made.

My favorite album from them is "Ladies Night" also. It's one of those album that I love all the way straight through and it is soooo disco that it gives me the same feeling when I listen to it today that I felt during that era. As SoulAlive has described it, "the entire album feels like a night out on the town during the disco era" and he is absolutely correct in his description.

Then, I like some of their earlier work such as "Open Sesame", "Rated X", "Jungle Boogie", "Hollywood Swinging", etc. After that, I like their work they did after "Celebration" such as "Get Down On It", "Take My Heart", "Tonight", "Victory", etc. but I always hated "Misled" and "Joanna" from day one. Those had no dance feel to them whatsoever and didn't have the sexiness of a slow jam either. They were just bland and pop sounding that weren't for neither the dance floor nor the bedroom. And you know how I feel about that. If a song isn't made for either of those two places, then it's useless.

vainandy said:

Uh...I don't give a damn what none of you motherfuckers say, I love "Celebration". It's one of my favorites from Kool and The Gang.

If you wanna talk some weak shit, lets talk about "Misled" and "Joanna". Now, that's some weak shit.

Excuse you, at least Misled has a rock guitar on the track. And I'm also a huge fan of the video (even if it is a rip-off of Thriller & Raiders Of The Lost Ark!).

Celebration is ther definitely mainstream pop classic, without question. But THAT track gets played to death too often by every business parties that is hosted by white folks. I rather play Jungle Boogie, Spirit Of The Boogie, Ladies Night, OR Get Down On It ahead of Celebration.

vainandy said:

I don't think funk ever recovered, at least not the kind of funk I was looking for anyway. I remember in the 1990s, there was groups like Brand New Heavies and Jamiroquai but they had a more early 1970s sound and hints of jazz in their music which was definately not what I wanted. When Jamiroquai sped things up the 2000s and started going towards a faster, more "disco" tempo and feel, that's when I started loving their music but I hated their 1990s stuff. It was too jazzy or "artsy" sounding for me.

You didn't dig ^this^ one though ? ... got some phat slapbass in the mix

TonyVanDam said:

vainandy said:

Uh...I don't give a damn what none of you motherfuckers say, I love "Celebration". It's one of my favorites from Kool and The Gang.

If you wanna talk some weak shit, lets talk about "Misled" and "Joanna". Now, that's some weak shit.

Excuse you, at least Misled has a rock guitar on the track. And I'm also a huge fan of the video (even if it is a rip-off of Thriller & Raiders Of The Lost Ark!).

Celebration is ther definitely mainstream pop classic, without question. But THAT track gets played to death too often by every business parties that is hosted by white folks. I rather play Jungle Boogie, Spirit Of The Boogie, Ladies Night, OR Get Down On It ahead of Celebration.

I think that rock guitar was the first thing to turn me off to the song because it was so obvious they were intentionally trying their absolutely damndest to crossover. "Tonight" had a rock guitar also but the song had a more danceable feel to it. "Misled" was up and down and all over the place. It went from slow to fast and from slow to fast.

Speaking of videos, I can't remember what the video for "Misled" looked like but I remember hating the way most 1980s black videos were made at the time. They would include a dancefloor full of mostly white people and some of the songs that had a dancefloor full of white people, the songs were completely unknown to the majority of white people in general. Then, they always would dress them in those damn leotards and leg warmers and have them doing those choreographed, sissy looking leaping and toe pointing dances. They looked like they were in rehearsal gear rehearsing for a ballet or a broadway show or something. This was definately not a true depiction of where a lot of these songs were played at the time. A lot of them were played in black clubs and skating rinks and there sure as hell wasn't no damn leotards, leg warmers, leaping, and toe pointing in those places. If someone had come in there with that shit on dancing those dances, they would have gotten their ass beat.

Shango said:

vainandy said:

I don't think funk ever recovered, at least not the kind of funk I was looking for anyway. I remember in the 1990s, there was groups like Brand New Heavies and Jamiroquai but they had a more early 1970s sound and hints of jazz in their music which was definately not what I wanted. When Jamiroquai sped things up the 2000s and started going towards a faster, more "disco" tempo and feel, that's when I started loving their music but I hated their 1990s stuff. It was too jazzy or "artsy" sounding for me.

You didn't dig ^this^ one though ? ... got some phat slapbass in the mix

I can't see videos on this computer. A friend of mine made me a copy of that album though and I don't remember really getting into any particular track on it.

^That's too bad man lol. I thought it was one of his better jams from his debut.

About 4 to 5 years after having produced "Celebration", Eumir Deodato supervised these

vainandy said:

Uh...I don't give a damn what none of you motherfuckers say, I love "Celebration". It's one of my favorites from Kool and The Gang.

If you wanna talk some weak shit, lets talk about "Misled" and "Joanna". Now, that's some weak shit.

Now see,I dislike "Celebration" but I love those other two songs you mentioned "Misled" is a pop masterpiece,imo.