NoVideo said:

JoeTyler said:

ha, your post just lost its credibility with that last paragraph.

ha, lost credibility with you? I think I'll survive somehow.

no need to act like an angry little princess, no need to turn this into a personal argument... I talked about the credibility of that post, not your credibility (as a whole)...I don't have problems with you and I usually agree with many of your posts (but not about Tori )

Fiona01 said:

Don't mean to patronise you, but I don't think you know what you think.

One minute you say:

JoeTyler said:

in fact, she remains a relatevely unknown artist (sort of) despite her mid-90s (short-lived) popularity.

And yet the next:

Joe Tyler said:

her music is CRIMINALLY OVERRATED

Make up your mind.

The fact is, you probably don't know anything about her or her music.

there's a big difference between being popular (worldwide) and the quality of the music (heard by alternative fans, her fans and music journalists, basically)

not that hard to understand, really

"The fact is, you probably don't know anything about her or her music". : gotta admit that I haven't heard her last two albums

[Edited 8/2/10 11:14am]

MattyJam said:

BramblingMan said:

The thread's author was - I think - referring to two new records, containing new material and not vaulted stuff, both being released in one year.

Correct.

Prince has never released two brand new studio albums in one year.

I already pointed this out but in 1996 Prince released Chaos and Disorder and Emancipation. Someone claimed that Chaos and Disorder was a vault release but I don't think that disqualifies it from being a new album. Most of it was recorded circa 1994/1995 and many new albums feature music that was recorded a year or two before the album is released. Certainly at the time of it's release Chaos and Disorder was presented as a new album.

In 1998 Prince released The Truth (as part of Crystal Ball) and Newpower Soul in the same year.

If you are going to disqualify 1994 due to the fact that The Black Album is a vault release then I think you should include it as a 1987 release in which case that is another year that he released two new albums. Four if you count the two Madhouse albums.

He also released Xpectation and N.E.W.S. in the same year (2003).

[Edited 8/2/10 13:40pm]

rialb said:

MattyJam said:

Correct.

Prince has never released two brand new studio albums in one year.

I already pointed this out but in 1996 Prince released Chaos and Disorder and Emancipation. Someone claimed that Chaos and Disorder was a vault release but I don't think that disqualifies it from being a new album. Most of it was recorded circa 1994/1995 and many new albums feature music that was recorded a year or two before the album is released. Certainly at the time of it's release Chaos and Disorder was presented as a new album.

In 1998 Prince released The Truth (as part of Crystal Ball) and Newpower Soul in the same year.

If you are going to disqualify 1994 due to the fact that The Black Album is a vault release then I think you should include it as a 1987 release in which case that is another year that he released two new albums. Four if you count the two Madhouse albums.

He also released Xpectation and N.E.W.S. in the same year (2003).

[Edited 8/2/10 13:40pm]

Didn't Prince release One Nite Alone and The Rainbow Children in the same year? I guess that doesn't count because the former isn't a "studio" release, based on the criteria provided.

NoVideo said:

She does have a staggering amount of material, and most of it very strong.

How many female artists, especially those 40+, are still having the kind of career she is having? Not very many.

She's had 5 straight Top 10 entries with her studio albums, including her last record "Abnormally Attracted to Sin" which is one of the strongest of her career.

We are only 2 years away from the 20th anniversary of "Little Earthquakes." I believe that eventually Tori Amos will get much more appreciation for her longevity, and the depth of her output. She is one of the great artists of the last quarter century.

A top 10 debut 5 times in a row is impressive, but the numbers one needs to attain that these days are far lower than they used to be. According to some estimates, Tori Soundscan numbers hitabout 100,000-200,000 units of her last 2 albums combined.

Now, that's a healthy number in the 21st century, and her singles chart well internationally, but the top 10 finishes can be deceiving, even for today's megastars.

All that said, she's a wonderful and important artist of our generation.

I would like to point out that one of the two album's that Tori released last year was a Christmas album. If people are disqualifying Chaos and Disorder, The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale and The Black Album on the grounds of them being "vault" releases I am going to disqualify Midwinter Graces. Does a Christmas album really meet the standards of being a new album? I say no. Now, it's true that there are several new compositions on the album but it's not really an all new album.

Tori fans, the ball is in your court.

rialb said:

I would like to point out that one of the two album's that Tori released last year was a Christmas album. If people are disqualifying Chaos and Disorder, The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale and The Black Album on the grounds of them being "vault" releases I am going to disqualify Midwinter Graces. Does a Christmas album really meet the standards of being a new album? I say no. Now, it's true that there are several new compositions on the album but it's not really an all new album.

Tori fans, the ball is in your court.

Well, my last email didn't count that release because apparently it wasn't released in the US.

Looked interesting, though,

namepeace said:

NoVideo said:

She does have a staggering amount of material, and most of it very strong.

How many female artists, especially those 40+, are still having the kind of career she is having? Not very many.

She's had 5 straight Top 10 entries with her studio albums, including her last record "Abnormally Attracted to Sin" which is one of the strongest of her career.

We are only 2 years away from the 20th anniversary of "Little Earthquakes." I believe that eventually Tori Amos will get much more appreciation for her longevity, and the depth of her output. She is one of the great artists of the last quarter century.

A top 10 debut 5 times in a row is impressive, but the numbers one needs to attain that these days are far lower than they used to be. According to some estimates, Tori Soundscan numbers hitabout 100,000-200,000 units of her last 2 albums combined.

Now, that's a healthy number in the 21st century, and her singles chart well internationally, but the top 10 finishes can be deceiving, even for today's megastars.

All that said, she's a wonderful and important artist of our generation.

I agree that the numbers are not what they once were - no argument there. But it's all relative. Nobody is moving the same numbers as in the past - even artists like Eminem.

I don't agree with the premise of this thread that she is the "female Prince", although I think most folks have misinterpreted what the original poster was trying to say. He was speaking of her prolific nature.

To me, she follows a more Patti Smith type career arc, or perhaps Annie Lennox: influential and with a die-hard cult following, largely outside the mainstream although flirting with it at times. Tori's last album debuted in the US Top 10 with almost no support from radio or any of the video channels; same with her last 3 albums, in fact. She's had only ONE major radio hit the last decade - "A Sorta Fairytale" - and has never reached the Top 40 pop singles charts in America.

Just about any artist who has lasted as long as Tori will have changing commercial fortunes, and periods where there seems little support or appreciation beyond the "die-hard" fan base. Think Prince from the mid-90s up to Musicology. As Prince fans, we all know he never went away, but with all the praise and attention he got around that period you'd have thought he just returned from a 5 year retreat in the Himalayas. I predict that moment will come for Tori Amos, eventually. As she continues, and the sum total of her already impressive body of work increases, more rock critics and writers and fans will look back at her career with more respect than she is given now. She's earned it - year after year, album after album, tour after tour, still connecting with a loyal fans world-wide, still putting out terrific and original music.

What other comparable female singer/songwriter/musician has done what Tori Amos has over the past 20 years? She's 46 years old now, so she'll likely be 47 or 48 by the time her next album comes out. And if history is our guide, it will land right in the Top 10 like her others. What other female artist who is pushing 50 could say the same? (Or male for that matter?) Very very few. Especially outside the world of pop & R&B. Rock n' Roll is a boys club, for sure, but her talents stands up next to anybody. And she has complete artistic freedom - she's never had to compromise. She has her own studio in England and works with pretty much the same small group of people on each album. She has not tried to latch on and follow passing trends. She does what she wants when she wants it, and is still successful.

I will say that some of her decisions with her appearance kinda baffle me (that carrot wig from the "American Doll Posse" album needs to be burned, ASAP ), but I have nothing but respect for her as an artist. A stellar songwriter and musician, vocalist and performer. Hope she keeps it up for another 20 years.

rialb said:

I would like to point out that one of the two album's that Tori released last year was a Christmas album. If people are disqualifying Chaos and Disorder, The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale and The Black Album on the grounds of them being "vault" releases I am going to disqualify Midwinter Graces. Does a Christmas album really meet the standards of being a new album? I say no. Now, it's true that there are several new compositions on the album but it's not really an all new album.

Tori fans, the ball is in your court.

This is a non-issue, IMHO. Nobody is doubting or questioning Prince's incredibly prolific output. Yes, he's put out multiple discs of studio material in a given year. Whether it was "vault" material or not hardly matters if its being treated as a new album. He has even included "vault" material alongside newer material on new studio albums. So I think the original poster was incorrect about that.

[Edited 8/2/10 15:04pm]

Around 98ish, I heard one of her albums with trip-hop -like beats on some songs. I liked it, was surprised to be told it was Tori Amos though, what album would it have been?

elmer said:

Around 98ish, I heard one of her albums with trip-hop -like beats on some songs. I liked it, was surprised to be told it was Tori Amos though, what album would it have been?

You're probably thinking of To Venus and Back, which was 1999.

rialb said:

I would like to point out that one of the two album's that Tori released last year was a Christmas album. If people are disqualifying Chaos and Disorder, The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale and The Black Album on the grounds of them being "vault" releases I am going to disqualify Midwinter Graces. Does a Christmas album really meet the standards of being a new album? I say no. Now, it's true that there are several new compositions on the album but it's not really an all new album.

Tori fans, the ball is in your court.

I guess this is what happens when you go to a Prince fansite and even suggest someone can "compete" with Princey's brillliance, lol.

The reason I'm hard pressed to credit Prince with releasing two records in a year is because these records were released by a label Prince was no longer affiliated with, without the need for Prince's involvement, at a time when he was disowning the work contained in the records...heck, he didn't even help to pick the songs that went onto Old Friends for Sale.

I did forget about The Truth and Newpowersoul, though! And even though The Truth is thrown into a box set of previously recorded material (which was my whole point about not counting them as two new releases), I think The Truth was all new material. So there ya go, they both released two new records in one year Tori's winter solstice record was all new material, so yeah, I definitely consider it...new material, lol.

We have to be a little logical...if Tori started releasing work every six months that was nothing but compiled b sides and unreleased tracks, I'd hardly give her props for releasing two records in a year. How much effort does it take to sit down with an engineer and grab tracks that already exist, put together a tracklist and get some album art. Not much. And that's my point between recording new material and releasing it back to back versus putting together a "best of my never released" cd.

BramblingMan said:

rialb said:

I would like to point out that one of the two album's that Tori released last year was a Christmas album. If people are disqualifying Chaos and Disorder, The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale and The Black Album on the grounds of them being "vault" releases I am going to disqualify Midwinter Graces. Does a Christmas album really meet the standards of being a new album? I say no. Now, it's true that there are several new compositions on the album but it's not really an all new album.

Tori fans, the ball is in your court.

I guess this is what happens when you go to a Prince fansite and even suggest someone can "compete" with Princey's brillliance, lol.

The reason I'm hard pressed to credit Prince with releasing two records in a year is because these records were released by a label Prince was no longer affiliated with, without the need for Prince's involvement, at a time when he was disowning the work contained in the records...heck, he didn't even help to pick the songs that went onto Old Friends for Sale.

I did forget about The Truth and Newpowersoul, though! And even though The Truth is thrown into a box set of previously recorded material (which was my whole point about not counting them as two new releases), I think The Truth was all new material. So there ya go, they both released two new records in one year Tori's winter solstice record was all new material, so yeah, I definitely consider it...new material, lol.

We have to be a little logical...if Tori started releasing work every six months that was nothing but compiled b sides and unreleased tracks, I'd hardly give her props for releasing two records in a year. How much effort does it take to sit down with an engineer and grab tracks that already exist, put together a tracklist and get some album art. Not much. And that's my point between recording new material and releasing it back to back versus putting together a "best of my never released" cd.

I got no problem with giving people credit for competing with Prince's brilliance. I just disagree with your assertion of what constitutes a "real" album. The Gold Experience sat around for over a year before it was released, does that make it a "vault" album? What about Graffiti Bridge? Many of those songs were several years old, is that a new album or a compilation of old songs?

At the time Chaos and Disorder was released Prince was affiliated with WB and he even did (limited) promotion for it so I see no reason why it should not count. I can almost agree with you about something like The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale but I do think that The Black Album should count as a new album, either for 1987 or 1994.

I think you are mistaken about The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale. I'm pretty sure that was delivered to WB in 1996 as the last album that Prince owed them. When it was delivered the tracklist and art was already finalized. I believe some folks at WB commented on it being a take it or leave it proposition.

The reason I cast doubt on the Christmas album is because I don't think much effort goes into recording them. More than half of her album was cover songs. Seems to me the same argument you are using in regards to Prince's vault albums would apply to a Christmas album. I'll admit that Tori put a lot more effort into hers than most folks but typically Christmas albums are slapped together fairly quickly in an effort to cash in.

Lastly, I should say that if it seems like I am being too defensive, particularly in regards to Chaos and Disorder, there may be a valid reason for it. That was my first Prince album and because of that it has always been a favourite. It takes a lot of abuse and I always feel the need to defend it as a "real" and valid Prince album.

Now, how about we give each other a big hug and just agree to disagree.

rialb said:

BramblingMan said:

I guess this is what happens when you go to a Prince fansite and even suggest someone can "compete" with Princey's brillliance, lol.

The reason I'm hard pressed to credit Prince with releasing two records in a year is because these records were released by a label Prince was no longer affiliated with, without the need for Prince's involvement, at a time when he was disowning the work contained in the records...heck, he didn't even help to pick the songs that went onto Old Friends for Sale.

I did forget about The Truth and Newpowersoul, though! And even though The Truth is thrown into a box set of previously recorded material (which was my whole point about not counting them as two new releases), I think The Truth was all new material. So there ya go, they both released two new records in one year Tori's winter solstice record was all new material, so yeah, I definitely consider it...new material, lol.

We have to be a little logical...if Tori started releasing work every six months that was nothing but compiled b sides and unreleased tracks, I'd hardly give her props for releasing two records in a year. How much effort does it take to sit down with an engineer and grab tracks that already exist, put together a tracklist and get some album art. Not much. And that's my point between recording new material and releasing it back to back versus putting together a "best of my never released" cd.

I got no problem with giving people credit for competing with Prince's brilliance. I just disagree with your assertion of what constitutes a "real" album. The Gold Experience sat around for over a year before it was released, does that make it a "vault" album? What about Graffiti Bridge? Many of those songs were several years old, is that a new album or a compilation of old songs?

At the time Chaos and Disorder was released Prince was affiliated with WB and he even did (limited) promotion for it so I see no reason why it should not count. I can almost agree with you about something like The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale but I do think that The Black Album should count as a new album, either for 1987 or 1994.

I think you are mistaken about The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale. I'm pretty sure that was delivered to WB in 1996 as the last album that Prince owed them. When it was delivered the tracklist and art was already finalized. I believe some folks at WB commented on it being a take it or leave it proposition.

The reason I cast doubt on the Christmas album is because I don't think much effort goes into recording them. More than half of her album was cover songs. Seems to me the same argument you are using in regards to Prince's vault albums would apply to a Christmas album. I'll admit that Tori put a lot more effort into hers than most folks but typically Christmas albums are slapped together fairly quickly in an effort to cash in.

Lastly, I should say that if it seems like I am being too defensive, particularly in regards to Chaos and Disorder, there may be a valid reason for it. That was my first Prince album and because of that it has always been a favourite. It takes a lot of abuse and I always feel the need to defend it as a "real" and valid Prince album.

Now, how about we give each other a big hug and just agree to disagree.

I agree with you on this premise, and as I said earlier the argument is kinda irrelevant. Does anybody seriously doubt that Prince could release an album of brand new material every couple of months for a year if he chose to? He could for sure.

But I will disagree w/ the Christmas album point you made in this particular case, because it was essentially a whole new studio album. Even the songs that were covers were completely reinvented; she used the essence of them and went with something completely original. So while it's not technically a normal studio ablum, I do think she put a great deal of effort into it. Tori is not the kinda of artist that half-asses something.

But generally speaking, I would agree - yes, there is probably less effort put into Christmas albums.

NoVideo said:

rialb said:

I got no problem with giving people credit for competing with Prince's brilliance. I just disagree with your assertion of what constitutes a "real" album. The Gold Experience sat around for over a year before it was released, does that make it a "vault" album? What about Graffiti Bridge? Many of those songs were several years old, is that a new album or a compilation of old songs?

At the time Chaos and Disorder was released Prince was affiliated with WB and he even did (limited) promotion for it so I see no reason why it should not count. I can almost agree with you about something like The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale but I do think that The Black Album should count as a new album, either for 1987 or 1994.

I think you are mistaken about The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale. I'm pretty sure that was delivered to WB in 1996 as the last album that Prince owed them. When it was delivered the tracklist and art was already finalized. I believe some folks at WB commented on it being a take it or leave it proposition.

The reason I cast doubt on the Christmas album is because I don't think much effort goes into recording them. More than half of her album was cover songs. Seems to me the same argument you are using in regards to Prince's vault albums would apply to a Christmas album. I'll admit that Tori put a lot more effort into hers than most folks but typically Christmas albums are slapped together fairly quickly in an effort to cash in.

Lastly, I should say that if it seems like I am being too defensive, particularly in regards to Chaos and Disorder, there may be a valid reason for it. That was my first Prince album and because of that it has always been a favourite. It takes a lot of abuse and I always feel the need to defend it as a "real" and valid Prince album.

Now, how about we give each other a big hug and just agree to disagree.

I agree with you on this premise, and as I said earlier the argument is kinda irrelevant. Does anybody seriously doubt that Prince could release an album of brand new material every couple of months for a year if he chose to? He could for sure.

But I will disagree w/ the Christmas album point you made in this particular case, because it was essentially a whole new studio album. Even the songs that were covers were completely reinvented; she used the essence of them and went with something completely original. So while it's not technically a normal studio ablum, I do think she put a great deal of effort into it. Tori is not the kinda of artist that half-asses something.

But generally speaking, I would agree - yes, there is probably less effort put into Christmas albums.

Not having heard the album, and not being very knowledgable about Tori Amos, I will have to concede this point to you.

rialb said:

NoVideo said:

I agree with you on this premise, and as I said earlier the argument is kinda irrelevant. Does anybody seriously doubt that Prince could release an album of brand new material every couple of months for a year if he chose to? He could for sure.

But I will disagree w/ the Christmas album point you made in this particular case, because it was essentially a whole new studio album. Even the songs that were covers were completely reinvented; she used the essence of them and went with something completely original. So while it's not technically a normal studio ablum, I do think she put a great deal of effort into it. Tori is not the kinda of artist that half-asses something.

But generally speaking, I would agree - yes, there is probably less effort put into Christmas albums.

Not having heard the album, and not being very knowledgable about Tori Amos, I will have to concede this point to you.