Timmy84 said:

VinnyM27 said:

He seems like Joe Jackson 2.0! Maybe not abusive (although we can't say for sure he ISN'T) but he most definately is a strong arming stage father. It's sad. That probably is why "B'Day" was a secret.

Yeah he does seem to be a pushy stage father.

well once DC broke through he made sure she was fron and center, and not that i blame him for that because the other DC girls at the time were not Girls that you could see "everyone" liking, lets face it, as much as we Dig Kelly Rowland alot of people dont, and she isnt appealing to a wide audience thats just the way it is, mainstream would never have someone like her, just ask Mya,teedra Moses,Angie Stone,Amerie etc...anyone slightly to the "left" of "center" isnt marketable. So matthew took full advantage of that, and once money rolled in for the label, he made sure his girl was the ONE. And he made sure that the label had no other "focus" (cue Amerie) Matthew was holding the "chip" that being Beyonce, and if they went with someone else, he would take her somewhere else. Beyonce rakes in billions for Sony, they could care less about songwriting credits

lastdecember said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah he does seem to be a pushy stage father.

well once DC broke through he made sure she was fron and center, and not that i blame him for that because the other DC girls at the time were not Girls that you could see "everyone" liking, lets face it, as much as we Dig Kelly Rowland alot of people dont, and she isnt appealing to a wide audience thats just the way it is, mainstream would never have someone like her, just ask Mya,teedra Moses,Angie Stone,Amerie etc...anyone slightly to the "left" of "center" isnt marketable. So matthew took full advantage of that, and once money rolled in for the label, he made sure his girl was the ONE. And he made sure that the label had no other "focus" (cue Amerie) Matthew was holding the "chip" that being Beyonce, and if they went with someone else, he would take her somewhere else. Beyonce rakes in billions for Sony, they could care less about songwriting credits

wide audience = non-black folks outside of the hip-hop/r&b circle

TonyVanDam said:

lastdecember said:

well once DC broke through he made sure she was fron and center, and not that i blame him for that because the other DC girls at the time were not Girls that you could see "everyone" liking, lets face it, as much as we Dig Kelly Rowland alot of people dont, and she isnt appealing to a wide audience thats just the way it is, mainstream would never have someone like her, just ask Mya,teedra Moses,Angie Stone,Amerie etc...anyone slightly to the "left" of "center" isnt marketable. So matthew took full advantage of that, and once money rolled in for the label, he made sure his girl was the ONE. And he made sure that the label had no other "focus" (cue Amerie) Matthew was holding the "chip" that being Beyonce, and if they went with someone else, he would take her somewhere else. Beyonce rakes in billions for Sony, they could care less about songwriting credits

wide audience = non-black folks outside of the hip-hop/r&b circle

exactly, Beyonce is someone that can be pushed to all races of people

BlaqueKnight said:

Caramelpfe said:

I think its safe to say if your a songwriter & Beyonce walks into the room you must face facts . . . you no longer wrote the song you toiled hours over.

This is true for MOST big artists. Its a hard fact to face if you place a lot of value on your own merits.

Make sure you are getting a FAT ass check for your work and keep pushing. The truth of the matter is, in the case of pop stars, the song is less important than the artist. Pop music is about image building. As long as you know you will get money if the song is redone by another artist and you are getting paid, all should be accepted.

The solution to not sharing credit is to simply not sell your song and either do it yourself or hire a singer to do it for you. You won't make the dough, but it'll be yours (for what its worth).

Beyoncé does and has publicly credited other writers on quite a few occasions. That doesn't mean that everyone in her camp is getting a fair shake. I think her dad is probably more responsible for trying to hog as much credit as possible for her than Beyoncé herself is.

[Edited 7/14/10 12:21pm]

Thats a shame. The sad part is Beyonce can barely read..you know her ass can't write.

shorttrini said:

sosgemini said:

Yes, as arrangers but not songwriters.

But, it is part of the song writting process, arranging, assigning parts.

No writing an original song and arranging different versions of that song is not the same and should not be creditted as such.

In the old days it wasn't. It was usually a writer, a seperate person doing the arrangements (sometimes oneperson arranging vocals, a different person arranging the rhythm section, and another person arranging horn and/ or string section), and then another person as producer.

lastdecember said:

TonyVanDam said:

wide audience = non-black folks outside of the hip-hop/r&b circle

exactly, Beyonce is someone that can be pushed to all races of people

Kelly Rowlands first album was very successful though.

Beyonce is doing no more than Janet, Madonna and some others. It seems to be a "rule" that if you write just ONE word of a song, you get songwriting credits. For example, I always thought that Janet was a writer on the album "Control" because that's the info supplied to the press. However, when I purchased the songbook for the music and lyrics, I only saw Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis' names listed on every song. I remember an instance where Madonna took credit for a song that Ingrid Chavez ( I think that's her name) had written. Ingrid made a big deal out it. After a while, Ingrid shut the hell up and it was said that money changed hands so that Madonna could get the songwriting credid. I don't think that Beyonce is doing anything that the aforementioned singers and some others have done.

Free2BMe said:

Beyonce is doing no more than Janet, Madonna and some others. It seems to be a "rule" that if you write just ONE word of a song, you get songwriting credits. For example, I always thought that Janet was a writer on the album "Control" because that's the info supplied to the press. However, when I purchased the songbook for the music and lyrics, I only saw Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis' names listed on every song. I remember an instance where Madonna took credit for a song that Ingrid Chavez ( I think that's her name) had written. Ingrid made a big deal out it. After a while, Ingrid shut the hell up and it was said that money changed hands so that Madonna could get the songwriting credid. I don't think that Beyonce is doing anything that the aforementioned singers and some others have done.

Major fail. Most of the Control album was done (production wise) before Janet ever got to the studio. Reason why you might've heard that the album was turned down by a couple of artists before getting to Janet. But she did participate in the writing process of most of the songs like 'Nasty' 'WHYDFML' 'Control' and etc.

[Edited 7/17/10 22:23pm]

[Edited 7/17/10 22:35pm]

shorttrini said:

nd33 said:

PurpleRain2010 said: Let's not get it twisted, people do different "arrangements" of an already written song all the time. It is called covering a song. Arranging an already written song into instrument/vocal parts is different to writing the lyrics/chord progression/lead melody. Without those 3 components, you have nothing. [Edited 7/17/10 10:23am]

I am not sure if I agree with that. Let's take MJ's song, "2,000 Watts" for example. That song was written by Tyreese for his album of the same name, it just had not gone to press yet. When Michael heard it, he changed the vocal arrangement of the song. To me, that is not covering a song, that is adding to it and making it our own. When Beyonce, recieved "Irreplaceble", from Neyo, she also changed the vocal arrangement, Does that mean that neither she nor MJ, should have gotten credit, for their contribution?

[Edited 7/17/10 10:38am]

Co-writing credit, yes. But that doesn't mean he or she wrote the song. Beyonce claimed to have written 'Irreplaceable'. When it was NeYo who penned the whole thing and even offered the song to Fantasia first.

[Edited 7/17/10 22:34pm]

Free2BMe said:

Beyonce is doing no more than Janet, Madonna and some others. It seems to be a "rule" that if you write just ONE word of a song, you get songwriting credits. For example, I always thought that Janet was a writer on the album "Control" because that's the info supplied to the press. However, when I purchased the songbook for the music and lyrics, I only saw Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis' names listed on every song. I remember an instance where Madonna took credit for a song that Ingrid Chavez ( I think that's her name) had written. Ingrid made a big deal out it. After a while, Ingrid shut the hell up and it was said that money changed hands so that Madonna could get the songwriting credid. I don't think that Beyonce is doing anything that the aforementioned singers and some others have done.

Umm, Chavez sued and won credit for partially writing the song with Kravitz *and* Madonna. While, yes, this is nothing new: See Elvis Presley. I'm not 100% sold that Janet and Madonna are the best examples to be giving. Janet was in no position to negotiate away songwriting credit from Jam & Lewis (yes, some of the songs were created prior to her involvement but it's my view that Janet did take part in personalizing the lyrics) and Madonna has never hidden the fact that she relies on "collaborating" with others. Beyonce, like Elvis, is a whole different beast though.

The thing is, Beyonce rarely says she "co-wrote" with others. She always say "I wrote this song for...". Prime example of how she changes a line in a song and gets credit

ORIGINAL VERSION of her song "Smash Into You" originally called "SMACK Into You" and this was for John McLaughlin's album "OK Now"

All they did was change ONE word (From SMACK to SMASH)...LITERALLY

ORIGINAL VERSION of "Halo" sung by Ryan Tedder

ONLY difference is, she omitted the bridge that was originally in the song.

sosgemini said:

Free2BMe said:

Beyonce is doing no more than Janet, Madonna and some others. It seems to be a "rule" that if you write just ONE word of a song, you get songwriting credits. For example, I always thought that Janet was a writer on the album "Control" because that's the info supplied to the press. However, when I purchased the songbook for the music and lyrics, I only saw Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis' names listed on every song. I remember an instance where Madonna took credit for a song that Ingrid Chavez ( I think that's her name) had written. Ingrid made a big deal out it. After a while, Ingrid shut the hell up and it was said that money changed hands so that Madonna could get the songwriting credid. I don't think that Beyonce is doing anything that the aforementioned singers and some others have done.

Umm, Chavez sued and won credit for partially writing the song with Kravitz *and* Madonna. While, yes, this is nothing new: See Elvis Presley.

Overglorified frauds

these versions are very good

trueiopian said:

Free2BMe said:

Beyonce is doing no more than Janet, Madonna and some others. It seems to be a "rule" that if you write just ONE word of a song, you get songwriting credits. For example, I always thought that Janet was a writer on the album "Control" because that's the info supplied to the press. However, when I purchased the songbook for the music and lyrics, I only saw Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis' names listed on every song. I remember an instance where Madonna took credit for a song that Ingrid Chavez ( I think that's her name) had written. Ingrid made a big deal out it. After a while, Ingrid shut the hell up and it was said that money changed hands so that Madonna could get the songwriting credid. I don't think that Beyonce is doing anything that the aforementioned singers and some others have done.

Major fail. Most of the Control album was done (production wise) before Janet ever got to the studio. Reason why you might've heard that the album was turned down by a couple of artists before getting to Janet. But she did participate in the writing process of most of the songs like 'Nasty' 'WHYDFML' 'Control' and etc.

I wonder why Janet's name was not listed on ANY of the songs from the Control Album Piano/Vocal Songbook that I purchased. Again, I was shocked because I had heard her say that she participated in the writing process and she was even given songwriting credit on the album liner notes. Just saying, why isn't her name listed on the music in this song collection that I bought? I am going to have to go and look for this book because I bought it years ago and haven't used it in a long time. I will get back with you if I find the book and will post the publisher, ID# and any other info that is pertinent.

[Edited 7/17/10 22:23pm]

[Edited 7/17/10 22:35pm]

trueiopian said:

shorttrini said:

I am not sure if I agree with that. Let's take MJ's song, "2,000 Watts" for example. That song was written by Tyreese for his album of the same name, it just had not gone to press yet. When Michael heard it, he changed the vocal arrangement of the song. To me, that is not covering a song, that is adding to it and making it our own. When Beyonce, recieved "Irreplaceble", from Neyo, she also changed the vocal arrangement, Does that mean that neither she nor MJ, should have gotten credit, for their contribution?

[Edited 7/17/10 10:38am]

Co-writing credit, yes. But that doesn't mean he or she wrote the song. Beyonce claimed to have written 'Irreplaceable'. When it was NeYo who penned the whole thing and even offered the song to Fantasia first.

[Edited 7/17/10 22:34pm]

See. I have heard a different story. I heard that he offered it first to, Chisette Michele. Who's management passed on the song. By the time it got to B, she was the one that changed the arrangement of it, because the original, had more of a country music vibe, to it.

shorttrini said:

trueiopian said:

Co-writing credit, yes. But that doesn't mean he or she wrote the song. Beyonce claimed to have written 'Irreplaceable'. When it was NeYo who penned the whole thing and even offered the song to Fantasia first.

[Edited 7/17/10 22:34pm]

See. I have heard a different story. I heard that he offered it first to, Chisette Michele. Who's management passed on the song. By the time it got to B, she was the one that changed the arrangement of it, because the original, had more of a country music vibe, to it.

Production style is not part of song writing, it's part of producing. If you take "Purple Rain", rerecord and produce a techno version of it, cutting the guitar solo bridge and adding some different counter melody background harmonies in the chorus, you're still not going to get listed as part songwriter in the eyes of the current system, because you're not writing the song, you're interpreting an already written song.

This all being said, not being a song writer doesn't take anything away from the talents of the great arrangers and producers, it's just that they're different parts of the process of recorded music as we know it.

Arrangement and producing usually cross over as the same thing in popular music.

I couldn't even get Beyonce props for producing, she co-produces as it is, I don't know if she arranges as much as she "produces", she probably collaborates in a way that is like she can TALK about changing the musical arrangement like "how about we do it like this?" She won't exactly "do it" but she'll probably tell them where to go. Not taking away from her talent and all because I do think she's involved in a way just not in the way people think she's involved. She's part of some process, just like Elvis was. Elvis was also listed as producer/arranger of songs too. He probably wasn't in no booth but he probably suggested to writers what to change. That's technically what producers do anyway.

ViintageJunkiie said:

The thing is, Beyonce rarely says she "co-wrote" with others. She always say "I wrote this song for...". Prime example of how she changes a line in a song and gets credit

ORIGINAL VERSION of her song "Smash Into You" originally called "SMACK Into You" and this was for John McLaughlin's album "OK Now"

All they did was change ONE word (From SMACK to SMASH)...LITERALLY

ORIGINAL VERSION of "Halo" sung by Ryan Tedder

ONLY difference is, she omitted the bridge that was originally in the song.

Wow.

midiscover said:

ViintageJunkiie said:

The thing is, Beyonce rarely says she "co-wrote" with others. She always say "I wrote this song for...". Prime example of how she changes a line in a song and gets credit

ORIGINAL VERSION of her song "Smash Into You" originally called "SMACK Into You" and this was for John McLaughlin's album "OK Now"

All they did was change ONE word (From SMACK to SMASH)...LITERALLY

ORIGINAL VERSION of "Halo" sung by Ryan Tedder

ONLY difference is, she omitted the bridge that was originally in the song.

Wow.

RIGHT! These songs are already created, she just comes in and changes a LINE in a verse and BAM! Co-written by Beyonce

ANOTHER EXAMPLE! BC Jean, the ORIGINAL writer to the track "If I Were A Boy"

Changed ONE LINE at 0:35 from "I'd make out with who I wanted, and I'd never get confronted for it" to "I'D KICK IT WITH WHO I WANTED, and I'd never get confronted for it"

BAM! Co-written by Beyonce

I've said this before, but Puffy has been getting away with this for YEARS!! Nobody, has said a thing.

shorttrini said:

I've said this before, but Puffy has been getting away with this for YEARS!! Nobody, has said a thing.

I did. I've mention in the late 1990's that The Hitmen would do all of the hard work with the producing, beatmaking, and songwriting. And yet, Sean Combs would give himself a co-producing credit because he added extra percussion parts to those tracks even after the master tapes were given to him.

shorttrini said:

I've said this before, but Puffy has been getting away with this for YEARS!! Nobody, has said a thing.

We've BEEN saying Puffy had ghostwriters/ghost producers.

[Edited 7/18/10 22:47pm]

sosgemini said:

Free2BMe said:

Beyonce is doing no more than Janet, Madonna and some others. It seems to be a "rule" that if you write just ONE word of a song, you get songwriting credits. For example, I always thought that Janet was a writer on the album "Control" because that's the info supplied to the press. However, when I purchased the songbook for the music and lyrics, I only saw Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis' names listed on every song. I remember an instance where Madonna took credit for a song that Ingrid Chavez ( I think that's her name) had written. Ingrid made a big deal out it. After a while, Ingrid shut the hell up and it was said that money changed hands so that Madonna could get the songwriting credid. I don't think that Beyonce is doing anything that the aforementioned singers and some others have done.

Umm, Chavez sued and won credit for partially writing the song with Kravitz *and* Madonna. While, yes, this is nothing new: See Elvis Presley. I'm not 100% sold that Janet and Madonna are the best examples to be giving. Janet was in no position to negotiate away songwriting credit from Jam & Lewis (yes, some of the songs were created prior to her involvement but it's my view that Janet did take part in personalizing the lyrics) and Madonna has never hidden the fact that she relies on "collaborating" with others. Beyonce, like Elvis, is a whole different beast though.

And Madonna CERTAINLY wasn't in any position to negotaite SOLE songwriting credits on the majority of the "Madonna" songs, that's for damn sure.

I really don't care what Beyonce does, anyone who can take credit for the crap songs that she sings should be ashamed of themselves.

Timmy84 said:

shorttrini said:

I've said this before, but Puffy has been getting away with this for YEARS!! Nobody, has said a thing.

We've BEEN saying Puffy had ghostwriters/ghost producers.

[Edited 7/18/10 22:47pm]

Yes, Timmy, we have. But, he as well as others that have done it, have not recieved the same flack that Beyonce has recieved. That's all I'm saying.

ViintageJunkiie said:

midiscover said:

Wow.

RIGHT! These songs are already created, she just comes in and changes a LINE in a verse and BAM! Co-written by Beyonce

ANOTHER EXAMPLE! BC Jean, the ORIGINAL writer to the track "If I Were A Boy"

Changed ONE LINE at 0:35 from "I'd make out with who I wanted, and I'd never get confronted for it" to "I'D KICK IT WITH WHO I WANTED, and I'd never get confronted for it"

BAM! Co-written by Beyonce

BC Jean did the same to Eric Bazilian though

I can understand her getting credit as a co-producer if she sings the lyrics a certain way, but not as a songwriter

shorttrini said:

Timmy84 said:

We've BEEN saying Puffy had ghostwriters/ghost producers.

[Edited 7/18/10 22:47pm]

Yes, Timmy, we have. But, he as well as others that have done it, have not recieved the same flack that Beyonce has recieved. That's all I'm saying.

I've given Puffy more flack than Beyonce. Matter of fact I even made an excuse as to why Beyonce gets more credit than she ought to. Others may be dissing her but I'm not trying to.

SoulAlive said:

The thing is...her songs are so crappy anyway,regardless of who really wrote them

Yeah, this.

Prospect said:

I can understand her getting credit as a co-producer if she sings the lyrics a certain way, but not as a songwriter

So now singing = producing?