The jury is not out on D'Angelo. D'Angelo and Erykah Badu are the father and mother of the Neo Soul movement. That is fact. That is history and its not even realistically up for debate. No D'Angelo, no neo-soul. Real talk.

Prince is not a genre of music.

BlaqueKnight said:

I'm done with this silly thread. "Prince music"

Prince is not a genre of music.[/b]

BK........actually........he sort of is.

Back in the 1990s, the best in terms of writing and production was Dallas Austin.

BlaqueKnight said:

The jury is not out on D'Angelo. D'Angelo and Erykah Badu are the father and mother of the Neo Soul movement. That is fact. That is history and its not even realistically up for debate. No D'Angelo, no neo-soul. Real talk.

And excuse me but Europe isn't exactly the cornerstone of black American music. I hear he's not that big in New Dheli either but it doesn't take away from his impact on soul music in the States, which is where his work originates. D'Angelo changed the direction of black music in America when even Prince couldn't (and HE WAS TRYING). You have to respect dude for that whether he put out one disc or one hundred. And just because you're not hearing music doesn't mean an artist has stopped making it.

I'm done with this silly thread. "Prince music"

Prince is not a genre of music.

The statement that two artists "founded the neo-soul movement" is not up for debate? Come on, man, I KNOW you know better than that.

The neo-soul movement had more founding fathers and mothers who each deserve some credit. If Badu is Betsy Ross, and D'Angelo George Washington, then Maxwell is Thomas Jefferson, Me'Shell Ndegeocello is Susan B. Anthony. Let's not forget the others in that movement, the Brand New Heavies, Groove Theory, Lewis Taylor and others who arrived at the same time and/or preceded D'Angelo. If you're going to limit credit, then Maxwell deserves to be included in the Trinity.

D'Angelo is a great artist. His current body of work eclipses Prince's cumulative body of work in that same time, and that's saying something. But the point that has been made on this thread, which is "not realisitically up for debate," is that it is sparse. In comparison, other great artists, well, you know, worked. Me'Shell whipped his tail in that same period, making great album after great album while D'Angelo sat in label purgatory, or was otherwise fighting his own demons. And you can make the argument that he's making good music unreleased to the general public, but it's like a series of trees falling in the woods. Hell, people would be talking about "D'Angelo music" had he bothered to release an album at least as often as the Olympics rolled around.

So the jury is indeed out on him in this regard: how large will his body of work be? Some great artists have legitimate reasons for sparse output (like, say, Jimi). D'Angelo? Well, who knows? He's Gayle Sayers at this point, a hall of famer but with a limited body of work nonetheless. You can't ignore that in evaluating his place on the scene, which is, well, you know, the other point of this thread.

The case can indeed be made that Prince's body of work is so voluminous and so distinctive that he can lay claim to a genre or sub-genre of music. Hell, even non fans talk about "Prince albums" as types of albums, i.e., _________ made the Prince Album Prince hasn't made in 10 years.

But . . . as I've said at least five times already (a point which you still haven't addressed), "Prince music" is often used as shorthand to describe a musical tradition of genre-bending synthesis that was successfully done before and after him, he just happens to be the most prominent "contemporary" of that tradition.

Without a doubt, Maxwell was right along in there, but like Maury says he is NOT THE FATHER. The history is strong on this and I laugh at orgers who constantly try to re-write it like there is nobody left from the 90s to know this. D was the one that made the genre change. It was Brown Sugar that made the R&B scene go "maybe we should be doing what he's doing". D defined it and set the pace along with Erykah. Brand New Heavies was NOT. That was not neo-soul and they were never big on the American R&B music scene. Sorry. That's the truth. Meshell has done some GREAT work. There is no denying that. I myself don't know what D was/is working on when he's not publicly releasing music and neither do you, so just say "you don't know" just like I did and keep it pushing. ?uestlove has spoken numerous times on work they have done, so I'll take ?uest's word over the org all day every day.

On the org; nowhere else.

And yes, he is the most prominent contemporary of that tradition.

[Edited 7/14/10 12:59pm]

BlaqueKnight said:

[. Volumewise, there is no denying how prolific he and his various camps have been but only on the org is Prince considered a "genre" - ONLY ON THE ORG.

[Edited 7/14/10 12:59pm]

Bk,

I would NOT put any $$$ on that if I were u.

BlaqueKnight said:

Without a doubt, Maxwell was right along in there, but like Maury says he is NOT THE FATHER. The history is strong on this and I laugh at orgers who constantly try to re-write it like there is nobody left from the 90s to know this. D was the one that made the genre change. It was Brown Sugar that made the R&B scene go "maybe we should be doing what he's doing". D defined it and set the pace along with Erykah. Brand New Heavies was NOT. That was not neo-soul and they were never big on the American R&B music scene. Sorry. That's the truth. Meshell has done some GREAT work. There is no denying that. I myself don't know what D was/is working on when he's not publicly releasing music and neither do you, so just say "you don't know" just like I did and keep it pushing. ?uestlove has spoken numerous times on work they have done, so I'll take ?uest's word over the org all day every day.

And bullshit on Prince being able to lay claim to a genre of music. His work has been unique but not distinctive enough to be a genre of its own. He has borrowed from way too many sources for that. Volumewise, there is no denying how prolific he and his various camps have been but only on the org is Prince considered a "genre" - ONLY ON THE ORG.

My point about D was that he was doing his own thing, just like Meshell, just like Maxwell, just like Van and just like others.

But . . . as I've said at least five times already (a point which you still haven't addressed), [b]"Prince music" is often used as shorthand to describe a musical tradition of genre-bending synthesis that was successfully done before and after him, he just happens to be the most prominent "contemporary" of that tradition

On the org; nowhere else.

And yes, he is the most prominent contemporary of that tradition.

[Edited 7/14/10 12:59pm]

Hell, critics have used the term "Prince album" or "Prince song" to describe other folks' material so much that it has become a decades-old cliche. You have to know that. There was even a bump on Adult Swim in response to Prince's latest comments that the Dream had made the best "Prince album" in 20 years. That was just last week! If you do take G/C up on that bet, you lose. Right or wrong, the concept of "Prince music" goes beyond the Org.

I don't deny D'Angelo has probably made some incredible songs, but that was my point: the audience (you and me included) don't know what it is. (I raised the point to allow for that possibility, umemba?) Hell, cats like ?uestlove have said the same things about sessions with Prince, and it's kinda like hearing about Snuffy, the hot Canadian girlfriend, or the chocolate syrup that cures diabetes. You can build hope based on credible sources, but they're a theories if they remain concealed. You can't widen your impact based on stacks of demos gathering dust. If you could, millions of artists could lay claim to elite status. D'Angelo's story (a great one even if he never played another note) cannot be fully written until his day is done, and it isn't for all we know. Hence, the jury's still out; to carry the allusion further, we all know he's won the case, the question is the size of the verdict.

D'Angelo helped define the neo-soul movement. He was a founding father. Maxwell was right there with him. "Brown Sugar" was a defining moment; as was "On and On"; but "Ascension had a similar impact. Everybody who remembers that era talks about those 3 artists nterchangeably. Everything you say about D'Angelo can and has been said about Maxwell. The fact that BNH or anyone else had a smaller commercial or artistic impact doesn't mean they didn't have a hand in shaping the genre and I'd be surprised if you of all people said any differently.

does Prince practicaly just like Prince....any other, no...he's just too unique in my eyes. There's only one Prince...anyone else is PALE in comparison...no pun intended to his skin tone.

Just like Mike was Mike....not a fan but I like some of his stuff and no one could do Mike like Mike.

There's crooner, and funker's and rockers and punkers...but no one stirs 'em all together like Prince do.

BobGeorge to Gett off to For You to Chaos And Disorder to Adore to the Most Beautiful Girl In the World to Valentena to Beggining Endlessly to She Loves Me for Me to Honky Tonk Woman(cover...i know) to Exodus Has Begun to Rock Hard In A Funky Place to Manic Monday....so on and so on...

NO ONE else has that kind of diversity going on.

namepeace said:

Hell, critics have used the term "Prince album" or "Prince song" to describe other folks' material so much that it has become a decades-old cliche. You have to know that. There was even a bump on Adult Swim in response to Prince's latest comments that the Dream had made the best "Prince album" in 20 years. That was just last week! If you do take G/C up on that bet, you lose. Right or wrong, the concept of "Prince music" goes beyond the Org.

I don't deny D'Angelo has probably made some incredible songs, but that was my point: the audience (you and me included) don't know what it is. (I raised the point to allow for that possibility, umemba?) Hell, cats like ?uestlove have said the same things about sessions with Prince, and it's kinda like hearing about Snuffy, the hot Canadian girlfriend, or the chocolate syrup that cures diabetes. You can build hope based on credible sources, but they're a theories if they remain concealed. You can't widen your impact based on stacks of demos gathering dust. If you could, millions of artists could lay claim to elite status. D'Angelo's story (a great one even if he never played another note) cannot be fully written until his day is done, and it isn't for all we know. Hence, the jury's still out; to carry the allusion further, we all know he's won the case, the question is the size of the verdict.

D'Angelo helped define the neo-soul movement. He was a founding father. Maxwell was right there with him. "Brown Sugar" was a defining moment; as was "On and On"; but "Ascension had a similar impact. Everybody who remembers that era talks about those 3 artists nterchangeably. Everything you say about D'Angelo can and has been said about Maxwell. The fact that BNH or anyone else had a smaller commercial or artistic impact doesn't mean they didn't have a hand in shaping the genre and I'd be surprised if you of all people said any differently.

Brown Sugar came out on 1995; Urban Hang Suite in 1996 - almost a year apart. Maxwell would be the Thomas Jefferson to D'Angelo's George Washington. I wasn't disputing that. My point was that D was FIRST. He was. That disc made a hell of an impact before Maxwell dropped. We're not really disagreeing here (except on that Prince as a genre of music bullshit), just emphasizing different points.

Either way, NEITHER of these artists were making "Prince records" - their works hold their own merit. Respect an artist for what they do, not for how it resembles what you like.

Neither Prince nor Michael Jackson SHOULD be music genres!

"The Song Formerly Known As......."

BlaqueKnight said:

Brown Sugar came out on 1995; Urban Hang Suite in 1996 - almost a year apart. Maxwell would be the Thomas Jefferson to D'Angelo's George Washington. I wasn't disputing that. My point was that D was FIRST. He was. That disc made a hell of an impact before Maxwell dropped. We're not really disagreeing here (except on that Prince as a genre of music bullshit), just emphasizing different points.

Either way, NEITHER of these artists were making "Prince records" - their works hold their own merit. Respect an artist for what they do, not for how it resembles what you like.

No, you said quite definitively that D'Angelo founded the neo-soul movement. That's where a I disagreed but in hindsight you're right, it's not much of a difference.

I never said either artist was making "Prince" records. Other folks were. I know I've been away awhile, so it's easy to forget my views on this which are similar to yours. The reason I loved and still love those cats is that they helped make soul music (extremely co-opted by hip-hop at the time, as it is now) relevant again, with different voices and different takes on proud musical traditions. It was a breath of fresh air that Prince could not provide because he can't do what they do. Then, or now. People who compare them to Prince are more accurately describing a musical tradition to which Prince rightly belongs.

A Big Mac is a hamburger. Opinions may vary on its quality, but many people consider and often talk about a Big Mac in a category of its own because 1) so many of them are sold, and 2) it has become an icon for American food (for better or worse).

The case can be made is all I've said.