Interview with Sly's attorney sheds some light on how he and other artists get cheated by scum like Jerry Goldstein.

babynoz said:

-----
Wow it is really interesting since so many people on this board assume that it is always the artist's fault when the lose out on their royalties when in reality you have a lot of crooks in the managment side of the music industry.

Same old.

George Clinton, Sly Stone ... all the greats purged and raped.

"They are not going to sit there and read an 80 page document."


Really?



Anytime you sign your name to a contract and you don't read it, you are asking for trouble and to be ripped off.




=====
[Edited 5/1/10 10:53am]

TD3 said:

Tell me about it...

We know it's true though. Hell, I can't even get people to read the signs posted on the damn wall or the info printed on their summons when they come to court and they're presumably sober at the time.

For the life of me I don't get why people would rather die and go to hell than simply read information right in front of them, especially contracts. And knowing how they deliberately complicate documents with legalese, it's important to get clarification before signing anything. Oddly, the vast majority of artistic types don't give a second thought to those kinds of details.

babynoz said:

Isn't that the truth. Artists are so excited to get "signed" to a lable/management that they tend to skip over the particulars or hidden clauses and loop-holes that the slick attorneys put in inorder to get over on the artist. The legalese is purposely complicated to the average joe. Experience is the best teacher and I hope he gets his due. I also hope he does the smart thing and let a responsible family member control the money for obvious reasons. He needs to produce other artists within his own element away from California, perhaps in the mountains, away from "interference". Talent shouldn't go to waste when given a second chance.

babynoz said:

-----
Did you not listen to what the lawyer was saying. Sly was high out of his mind when he hooked up with this guy and Goldstein went out of his way to form corporations so he could steal royalites.
[Edited 5/2/10 9:48am]

babynoz said:

.....DAMN!!!!!

laurarichardson said:

Ms. Richardson eveyone heard what Mr. Stewart's lawyer said. He also stated at the very end of that interview (9:50) that many of these artist are dupped or ripped off because the don't read what they sign. If you sign a document without reading it, you bare some responsibility for the consquences, if you are defrauded. That was my point and only point.

Whether Mr. Stewart case has merit will have to be prove in a court of law: proving that documents were signed under duress aren't easy cases to prove. Ones party's actions may have been unethical, but not necessarily illegal.



=====
[Edited 5/2/10 12:49pm]

Sly being high is not a real excuse when artists who are sober when signing their contracts don't read what they're signing.

Timmy84 said:

I understand your point, however, lawyers are trained to circomvent the law for their advantage.

madhattter said:

And I can understand that too. There are two sides after all.

madhattter said:

Yeah, that's one of the reasons too. Even when not under the influence they tend to get stars in their eyes and fall prey to fast talkers that tell them what they wanna hear, especially when they're young.

At this point I don't know how much Sly trusts his family or anybody for that matter. From what I've read of him he sounds like the hard headed type. It would be a shame if Goldstein gets away with this and leave him with nothing but a social security check.

TD3 said:

I know, right?

As I was saying, I get plenty of perfectly sober people every day who won't even read their court summons, much less the contract they signed. They all seem to think that "I didn't know" is a legitimate defense,

In Sly's case, ain't no judge tryin' to hear, "I was high your honor". Unless his attorney can prove that Goldstein personally drugged him, that excuse ain't gonna fly.

Here's my question counsellor, if it can be shown that Goldstein has a pattern of doing this with other artists, (such as WAR), even going so far as to create companies with similar sounding names with intent to defraud, how much bearing would it have on a preponderance of the evidence?

babynoz said:

-----
"that many of these artist are dupped or ripped off because the don't read what they sign. If you sign a document without reading it, you bare some responsibility for the consquences, if you are defrauded. That was my point and only point.

All that is true but Sly was also high out of his mind. Don't you think he might have some legal defense or at least have some sympathy for him.

In additon Mr.Goldstein has a history of setting up publishing companies with similar names to steal royalties.

Artist should not sign anything without reading it but greedy asshole like Goldstein should not go around stealing royalty check with fake publishing companies which is the first thing he did to Sly before Sly signed anything.

In addtion, according to the lawyer he has done the publishing stealing to a dozen other groups and artist.

Try blaming the criminal and not the victim.

laurarichardson said:

I fully agree!!!!!

laurarichardson said:

I can't tell if you are addressing me or TD3 'cause you keep quoting my posts while answering her points?

babynoz said:

-----
Some of us have other things to do than sit on the org all day so I mixed up the questions but, you do not appear to think that Goldstein did anything wrong


I am sorry setting up fake companies with similar names to steal royalty checks has got to violate some laws. How about mail fraud and check fraud. I mean they put Ron Isley in prison for cashing his dead brother roylaty checks and you don't think Goldstein is in the wrong.

Sly can't use the I did know defense but he can use the Goldstein is a fucking crook defense.

laurarichardson said:

He is a crook!!

laurarichardson said:

I really don't understand why you see it as your duty to bring venom and vitriol to every discussion, not to mention that you're just plain wrong for mis-representing what I said. If you didn't get what I said you could simply ask me to clarify...



I said:


and:


and:


and:



Please tell me in what universe those quotes are defending Goldstein? I'm the one who started the thread that shows the attorney explaining how guys like Goldstein rip artists off, including my favorite band, WAR. I'm not blaming any victims, I'm sticking up for Sly even though he may not have acted in his own best interest. I pointed out several times that even sober people often don't read their contracts.

It seems like it's always more important to you to look for a reason to pounce than to understand what is being said and I hope you will not continue to disrupt the thread with misinterpretations and hostility.

On some levels I feel 4 the artist but it seems that there is a lack of any intelligence with a lot of artist. Everyone knows the 1950, 1960's artist who have been ripped off. Why in the hell would u come behind these folks and do the same thing?

Graycap23 said:

Some lawyers tend to think that "ONCE A FOOL, ALWAYS A FOOL."

Here's a case of someone who obviously could not read his own contract and fortunately got it right.

An excerpt from a story posted here: http://prince.org/msg/8/335735

Margouleff and Cecil mentioned attorney Johanan Vigoda to him. A long time music business attorney who cut Jimi Hendrix's first US record deal and handled Richie Havens, Vigoda was a long-haired maverick who looked like hell, but was as sharp as they come ("Forget the fucking costume," one of his opponents once warned, "Vigoda's a shark"). He first met with Wonder in his Holiday Inn room, where Wonder told his prospective representative that he was going to ask for 25 per cent of his earnings across the board; records, songs, performances. "To me, it sounded nuts," said Vigoda.

It would be up to Vigoda to solve Wonder's problems with his somewhat tyrannical, usually inflexible record company. While Vigoda briefly entertained offers from other labels, Wonder always felt an allegiance to Motown and never seriously considered leaving the label, Vigoda said. Of course, Motown had never before granted any artist the kind of control over his career that Wonder was demanding.

BEFORE LONG, VIGODA FOUND HIMSELF IN CALIFORNIA, trying to hammer out a satisfactory agreement with Motown Records President Ewart Abner, who Vigoda used to represent when he ran Vee-Jay Records. "They basically surrounded me with lawyers," Vigoda said. "Every six hours, they would bring in another two lawyers with a fresh draft, around the clock. Berry hired all these outside law firms to cover me. They would have all these fancy lawyers in their suits with their yellow pads and I showed up in jeans, bandana and cowboy boots. I would do yoga, stand on my head, to deal with it."

While Motown's lawyers waited for Vigoda and Wonder to sign the finalised agreement, Vigoda realised they had worn him down to where he gave away some crucial procedural points and, at the last minute, advised Stevie against signing the document. After a long, restful sleep, Vigoda re-read the entire 240 page contract, making semi-legible handwritten changes with a felt-tipped magic marker. He delivered the dog-eared, scrawled-over contract to Motown with Wonder's signature and told them they had 48 hours to return this exact document signed or the deal was off. They brought it back, signed, in six hours.

Vigoda won unprecedented concessions from Motown. Wonder earned the total creative control he sought. The label was required to release the records he delivered "as is", said Vigoda. Wonder had complete command of cover art. The company retained only the right to pick the singles. Wonder won half of all his future publishing for his own Black Bull Music, and he won back half of the publishing to all his previous work. "He needed the freedom," said Vigoda. "He needed the money basically, to fund the freedom. He made more on the initial advance than he netted the entire previous 10 years."

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


Music for adventurous listeners


tA

Tribal Records

theAudience said:

Are we being facetious Neil ?


Mr. Wonder probably had his contracts transcribed to Braille. Mr. Wonder had firm grasp/knowledge on what he wanted and rightfully should get interms of his dealings with Motown and Mr. Gordy. There have been a small mintority of artist who've taken care of their business. The most important words, they took care to make sure they recieved what was rightfully theirs


Mr. Stewart suite isn't against a record label though, it's against his former manager (Mr. Goldstein) for allegedly bilking him out of millions in royalties during the past two decades. When Mr. Stewart chose Mr. Goldstein to be his manager they entered into and signed a music manager contract. Artist have lost millions (rights to their music) because they've intrusted their business decisions to a music managers. Again, you should have a full understanding of the contract you are signing: the length of your agreement, how much power you intrust (power of attorney), and what percentage of your earnings your manager and/or management recieves.

theAudience said:

Neil, you do know Stevie HAS an education. You know blind people can read in Braille, right?
[Edited 5/12/10 10:53am]

TD3 said:

And that's where the difference lies. Stevie had to make sure Motown didn't steal the rest of his shit (considering that he only made $1 million out of $30 million during his first ten years in Motown). Sly on the other hand has to deal with "businessmen" that didn't know how to deal with the artist's money. Sly's far from the only one to suffer through that. Lots of musicians have managers who don't know how to manage an artist's money or keep it to themselves.

TD3 said:

Partially.

The main point being that he had competent representation to, at the very least, help him through the negotiation.
Any artist that doesn't also have a legal background, is foolish to sign anything (recording/management/etc contract) without serious counsel.


Music for adventurous listeners


tA

Tribal Records

theAudience said:

Well ain't that why Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder, two men with an obvious disability, were basically laughing their ways to the bank? They KNEW better. Other artists weren't too sure lol

Timmy84 said:

Mr. Wonder lived and learned, quickly.

Exactly. Look, your money your intellectual property and take responsibility for running your affairs. We all have to trust someone but it doesn't mean you should hand your affairs over to someone on go on with your life.

TD3 said:

And from what I'm reading, Sly trusted that motherfucker with everything. There's no reason why that man should be struggling for social security at his age. No reason, man. 67 and struggling with social security, all that money his music made? Shame.
[Edited 5/12/10 11:47am]