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Printableangel345 said: angel345 said: And maybe it's possible that trying to classify what is considered an addiction is the issue. Only a doctor can determine that. I couldn't help but agree with someone here if he was addicted, he would'nt be able to do "This Is It", based on his rehearsals. That's the logical way to think about it. But that's usually overruled by nonsense since this is Michael Jackson we're talking about.  "You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend." - Bruce Lee
"Water can nourish me, but water can also carry me. Water has magic laws." - JCVD | |
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MOL said: BabyBeMine said: Michael Jackson is not the only person to have money and help out his family weather a musician or athlete. Many NBA, NFL, MLB players make a lot of money and help out there family or the family members asking for momey if there broke. It aint new and not a excuse to make his family have to have appointments and want nothing to do with them. My point about Santa Maria in 2005 is if you want nothing to do with them before then then why want something to do with them during the trial. If i was one of his brothers id be like i can't make it because i didnt make a appointment. MJ is lucky to have brothers and sisters who forgave him for his evil ways. Many ppl would be like
go to trial on your own because you have wanted nothing to do with us for years. Watching the Jacksons reality show, maybe MJ should have hung with his brothers more often and maybe had some of his brother Marlon's Gumbo cooking, chillin with his brothers for a change and not think he was to good. Maybe he would still be alive. But instead he was handing with Dr Murray which was his choice. [Edited 4/3/10 12:12pm] Baby, I don't think you understood. Mike de La Purré: "Michael had to run away from his brothers. He told me: "It's impossible to be with them. I want to, but they are constantly hounding me for reunion tours."" (...) "Once I saw the brothers with him, it was a hell just to watch. They only mentioned some reunion tour and were clearly forcing him to do that." I'm not talking about helping the family. I'm talking about the brothers being COMPLETELY DEPENDENT on Michael. I'm talking about the brothers being jobless, penniless, deadbeats, sex addicts and abusers. They didn't even have money to buy a lettuce, damnit. Michael paid even for their panties. Do you think this is normal? One thing is to help your family, another is to be their only source of income because they refuse to have a job. One thing is to ask for money. Another is to leech off of your relative, or extort him at every opportunity. IT'S VERY DIFFERENT! What Randy, Joe and Jermaine did to Michael is UNFORGIVABLE. The family is lucky Michael forgave them for their evil ways. You should put it like that. Because you can be damn sure that most of them have a place in hell, boy. [Edited 4/3/10 12:27pm]  ....  "You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend." - Bruce Lee
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WaterInYourBath said: angel345 said: I couldn't help but agree with someone here if he was addicted, he would'nt be able to do "This Is It", based on his rehearsals. That's the logical way to think about it. But that's usually overruled by nonsense since this is Michael Jackson we're talking about. U guys don't know what addiction is....You know, it is possible to be a functioning addict, right?..You don't have to be shooting up somewhere in an alley...lol....I love MJ just as much as anyone here...Let's try to keep perspective here... | |
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I completely disagree that all the brothers were bugging MJ about getting back together to the point where he was so annoyed to the point he wanted nothing to do with them. Just watching the Jackson Reality show the only one that's obsessed with getting back together is Jermaine. Marlon can really care less and didn't even look to motivated so that's 1, Tito to me doesn't look obsessed with getting back together so thats 2. I don't picture Tito and Marlon when they see MJ in person bugging him lets get back together one last time everytime they see him to the point where its annoying where he wants very little to do with them. I don't picture Jackie bugging MJ constantly about it either to the point where MJ wants very little to do with him.
Your going off MJ's own words of everytime i see them they always want to get back together. Considering MJ has lied several times from the Bashir interview to the ridiculous police brutality thing that was most likely a lie as well. Marlon is the coolest dude and funny, how can you not want to chill with him and eat some Gumbo LOL...Only MJ | |
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murph said: WaterInYourBath said: That's the logical way to think about it. But that's usually overruled by nonsense since this is Michael Jackson we're talking about. U guys don't know what addiction is....You know, it is possible to be a functioning addict, right?..You don't have to be shooting up somewhere in an alley...lol....I love MJ just as much as anyone here...Let's try to keep perspective here... OK, Murph. Only you know what addiction is. It doesn't matter what his autopsy says, or the evidence. Only you know what it is. We are all blind fans. because we defend the guy in this particular topic using evidence. You're the only sane admiror! We are all crazy but you. You're that good while we, the rest, are a bunch of worshippers who know nothing. Please murph, enlighten us (without using the same argument again and again...but that's just a post scriptum)! | |
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BabyBeMine said: I completely disagree that all the brothers were bugging MJ about getting back together to the point where he was so annoyed to the point he wanted nothing to do with them. Just watching the Jackson Reality show the only one that's obsessed with getting back together is Jermaine. Marlon can really care less and didn't even look to motivated so that's 1, Tito to me doesn't look obsessed with getting back together so thats 2. I don't picture Tito and Marlon when they see MJ in person bugging him lets get back together one last time everytime they see him to the point where its annoying where he wants very little to do with them. I don't picture Jackie bugging MJ constantly about it either to the point where MJ wants very little to do with him.
Your going off MJ's own words of everytime i see them they always want to get back together. Considering MJ has lied several times from the Bashir interview to the ridiculous police brutality thing that was most likely a lie as well. Marlon is the coolest dude and funny, how can you not want to chill with him and eat some Gumbo LOL...Only MJ It doesn't matter what you picture. BTW, are we talking about the same Tito? Or did you forget that, two days after TII was announced, Tito said: "I hope Michael still finds time to do a tour with us." [refering to TII being Michael's curtain call]? Something you obviously don't know; do you know who sued Michael in May over a reunion tour? If you did, you wouldn't be saying that. Ohhh...and don't be so naive, Baby. You saw the brothers acting...in front of a camara. It's obvious that they are not going to do anything "evil" and will try to pass the "perfect family" image. [Edited 4/3/10 12:46pm] | |
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MOL said: murph said: U guys don't know what addiction is....You know, it is possible to be a functioning addict, right?..You don't have to be shooting up somewhere in an alley...lol....I love MJ just as much as anyone here...Let's try to keep perspective here... OK, Murph. Only you know what addiction is. It doesn't matter what his autopsy says, or the evidence. Only you know what it is. We are all blind fans. because we defend the guy in this particular topic using evidence. You're the only sane admiror! We are all crazy but you. You're that good while we, the rest, are a bunch of worshippers who know nothing. Please murph, enlighten us (without using the same argument again and again...but that's just a post scriptum)! It's not about me knowing what addiction is...It's about a few overzealous MJ fans not understanding that addiction varies....You can be an addict and go on to live a successful, healthy life... The Rolling Stones' Keith Richards is an addict Robert Downy Jr. is an addict Eric Clapton is an addict And you know what all these guys have in common?...They all all functioning addicts who are still able to tour and perform....Some of you have a child-like view of what addiction is....And you are applying that child like view to MJ's problems... The whole "MJ was performing pretty well on This Is It" theory is shaky...Mike was a functioning addict...He was able to bring himself from the brink...And he should be given credit from this because God knows I wanted the man to stay around...But from all accounts, it was still a daily battle for him...Live-in doctor's scoring you a plethora of prescriptions does not exactly mean someone has gotten over their addictions...What it means is, MJ was able to contain his addictions.. The only problem was he chose the wrong doctor... | |
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murph said: WaterInYourBath said: That's the logical way to think about it. But that's usually overruled by nonsense since this is Michael Jackson we're talking about. U guys don't know what addiction is....You know, it is possible to be a functioning addict, right?..You don't have to be shooting up somewhere in an alley...lol....I love MJ just as much as anyone here...Let's try to keep perspective here... I know what you're saying. But: 1) You're not an "addict" when you are in literal pain all the time. People who take prescription painkillers for medically diagnosed chronic pain problems are NOT addicts. "Chronic Pain" is the #1 WORST affliction a human can have, and it's obvious he had that.... 2) Like numerous others have said: Propofol is not addictive.  Michael did not do any research and was mislead into thinking it was working, but he could have easily stopped without any withdrawal effects. "You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend." - Bruce Lee
"Water can nourish me, but water can also carry me. Water has magic laws." - JCVD | |
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"You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend." - Bruce Lee
"Water can nourish me, but water can also carry me. Water has magic laws." - JCVD | |
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murph said: WaterInYourBath said: That's the logical way to think about it. But that's usually overruled by nonsense since this is Michael Jackson we're talking about. U guys don't know what addiction is....You know, it is possible to be a functioning addict, right?..You don't have to be shooting up somewhere in an alley...lol....I love MJ just as much as anyone here...Let's try to keep perspective here... This is why I have stated in post #461 that everyone has a different view of what an addiction is. Only a doctor can determine it. | |
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WaterInYourBath said: murph said: U guys don't know what addiction is....You know, it is possible to be a functioning addict, right?..You don't have to be shooting up somewhere in an alley...lol....I love MJ just as much as anyone here...Let's try to keep perspective here... I know what you're saying. But: 1) You're not an "addict" when you are in literal pain all the time. People who take prescription painkillers for medically diagnosed chronic pain problems are NOT addicts. "Chronic Pain" is the #1 WORST affliction a human can have, and it's obvious he had that.... 2) Like numerous others have said: Propofol is not addictive. Michael did not do any research and was mislead into thinking it was working, but he could have easily stopped without any withdrawal effects. Actually, this is how addiction, particularly prescription pill addiction, starts...Usually patients with drug issues start by taking drugs because of legit "pain" issues....But then the patient slides into addiction...They began to to think that they cannot "function" without their perspective drug...They feel like they can't sleep without a particular drug...This is called addiction... As stated previously, MJ was able to keep his addictions under control in the months leading up to the shows...Just as Eric Clapton and the likes of Natalie Cole have been able to do... But for addicts it's always a daily struggle... | |
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angel345 said: murph said: U guys don't know what addiction is....You know, it is possible to be a functioning addict, right?..You don't have to be shooting up somewhere in an alley...lol....I love MJ just as much as anyone here...Let's try to keep perspective here... This is why I have stated in post #461 that everyone has a different view of what an addiction is. Only a doctor can determine it. The only view of addiction is the correct view...If you need something to function, you are ann addict...The only difference is there are various levels of addiction whether it's cigarettes, booze, or crack...But addiction is addiction... | |
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WaterInYourBath said: smile... | |
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murph said: angel345 said: This is why I have stated in post #461 that everyone has a different view of what an addiction is. Only a doctor can determine it. The only view of addiction is the correct view...If you need something to function, you are ann addict...The only difference is there are various levels of addiction whether it's cigarettes, booze, or crack...But addiction is addiction... Ok, then I'll see how this play out in court. That's what I'm going to do  | |
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murph said: WaterInYourBath said: I know what you're saying. But: 1) You're not an "addict" when you are in literal pain all the time. People who take prescription painkillers for medically diagnosed chronic pain problems are NOT addicts. "Chronic Pain" is the #1 WORST affliction a human can have, and it's obvious he had that.... 2) Like numerous others have said: Propofol is not addictive. Michael did not do any research and was mislead into thinking it was working, but he could have easily stopped without any withdrawal effects. Actually, this is how addiction, particularly prescription pill addiction, starts...Usually patients with drug issues start by taking drugs because of legit "pain" issues....But then the patient slides into addiction...They began to to think that they cannot "function" without their perspective drug...They feel like they can't sleep without a particular drug...This is called addiction... As stated previously, MJ was able to keep his addictions under control in the months leading up to the shows...Just as Eric Clapton and the likes of Natalie Cole have been able to do... But for addicts it's always a daily struggle... So, an insomniac who wants to sleep is a druggie? Think about it. | |
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murph said: MOL said: OK, Murph. Only you know what addiction is. It doesn't matter what his autopsy says, or the evidence. Only you know what it is. We are all blind fans. because we defend the guy in this particular topic using evidence. You're the only sane admiror! We are all crazy but you. You're that good while we, the rest, are a bunch of worshippers who know nothing. Please murph, enlighten us (without using the same argument again and again...but that's just a post scriptum)! It's not about me knowing what addiction is...It's about a few overzealous MJ fans not understanding that addiction varies....You can be an addict and go on to live a successful, healthy life... The Rolling Stones' Keith Richards is an addict Robert Downy Jr. is an addict Eric Clapton is an addict And you know what all these guys have in common?...They all all functioning addicts who are still able to tour and perform....Some of you have a child-like view of what addiction is....And you are applying that child like view to MJ's problems... The whole "MJ was performing pretty well on This Is It" theory is shaky...Mike was a functioning addict...He was able to bring himself from the brink...And he should be given credit from this because God knows I wanted the man to stay around...But from all accounts, it was still a daily battle for him...Live-in doctor's scoring you a plethora of prescriptions does not exactly mean someone has gotten over their addictions...What it means is, MJ was able to contain his addictions.. The only problem was he chose the wrong doctor... From all accounts but the autopsy one
That's where you miss the point. Ok, then I'll see how this play out in court. That's what I'm going to do shrug
No, angel. The doctor will get away because it will be convenient to too many people to claim MJ was a junkie and a crazy person. And those claims are essential to the defense. Remember those claims are also important to invalidate wills, sue big companies (AEG) and get monthly allowances. Get why Muraay will walk away (though he is as guilty as sin)? [Edited 4/3/10 13:19pm] | |
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MOL said: murph said: Actually, this is how addiction, particularly prescription pill addiction, starts...Usually patients with drug issues start by taking drugs because of legit "pain" issues....But then the patient slides into addiction...They began to to think that they cannot "function" without their perspective drug...They feel like they can't sleep without a particular drug...This is called addiction... As stated previously, MJ was able to keep his addictions under control in the months leading up to the shows...Just as Eric Clapton and the likes of Natalie Cole have been able to do... But for addicts it's always a daily struggle... So, an insomniac who wants to sleep is a druggie? Think about it. No... But someone who feels like he/she has to take pills to sleep is an addict....It may not be from the specific drug that he or she is taking...When you have a history of drug usage it all becomes part of your physical, emotional and mental make-up...MJ was always dealing with this...That's the daily struggle of all addicts... | |
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MOL said:[quote] murph said: From all accounts but the autopsy one
That's where you miss the point. Ok, then I'll see how this play out in court. That's what I'm going to do shrug
No, angel. The doctor will get away because it will be convenient to too many people to claim MJ was a junkie and a crazy person. And those claims are essential to the defense. Remember those claims are also important to invalidate wills, sue big companies (AEG) and get monthly allowances. Get why Muraay will walk away (though he is as guilty as sin)? [Edited 4/3/10 13:19pm] It's possible, considering MJ has admitted his addiction to painkillers. It's tough | |
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murph said: MOL said: So, an insomniac who wants to sleep is a druggie? Think about it. No... But someone who feels like he/she has to take pills to sleep is an addict....It may not be from the specific drug that he or she is taking...When you have a history of drug usage it all becomes part of your physical, emotional and mental make-up...MJ was always dealing with this...That's the daily struggle of all addicts... Sorry, perhaps I'm just too slow for your mighty intelligence but your "no" defines the answer. The rest contradicts your "No" in the beginning of the sentence. [The Dramatic end] But, oh well, that's the daily struggle of all addicts [with the dramatic punctuation] ... [Edited 4/3/10 13:26pm] | |
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angel345 said: MOL said: No, angel. The doctor will get away because it will be convenient to too many people to claim MJ was a junkie and a crazy person. And those claims are essential to the defense. Remember those claims are also important to invalidate wills, sue big companies (AEG) and get monthly allowances. Get why Muraay will walk away (though he is as guilty as sin)? [Edited 4/3/10 13:19pm] It's possible, considering MJ has admitted his addiction to painkillers. It's tough He admitted in 1993 and after some months went to rehab. It doesn't mean he was a junkie all his life. | |
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murph said: angel345 said: This is why I have stated in post #461 that everyone has a different view of what an addiction is. Only a doctor can determine it. The only view of addiction is the correct view...If you need something to function, you are an addict...The only difference is there are various levels of addiction whether it's cigarettes, booze, or crack...But addiction is addiction... Sorry Murph, but that's not true. That's so not true....Millions of people need all types of supplements to live normally/healthily, whether they are prescriptions, vitamins, or herbal remedies, and not by choice either. So it's not fair for you to say that. We ALL need water and food to function. Does that make all of us addicts? I'm not trying to defend every mistake Mike made. He caused a lot of the pain he ended up needing to take painkillers for. But that still does not compare to true voluntary "addicts" like the examples you named. They said: "Hmm, I think I'll try some cocaine today. Why not?" Michael said: "Gosh, my head, neck, back, face, and knees are hurting. What can I do to stop this pain?" See the difference? That's just my perspective. "You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend." - Bruce Lee
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MOL said: angel345 said: It's possible, considering MJ has admitted his addiction to painkillers. It's tough He admitted in 1993 and after some months went to rehab. It doesn't mean he was a junkie all his life. I was agreeing with you that because of his past addiction, it could benefit Murray's case, and that's why I said man, it's tough. | |
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MOL said:[quote] murph said: From all accounts but the autopsy one
That's where you miss the point. Ok, then I'll see how this play out in court. That's what I'm going to do shrug
No, angel. The doctor will get away because it will be convenient to too many people to claim MJ was a junkie and a crazy person. And those claims are essential to the defense. Remember those claims are also important to invalidate wills, sue big companies (AEG) and get monthly allowances. Get why Muraay will walk away (though he is as guilty as sin)? [Edited 4/3/10 13:19pm] You still don't get it do you?...lol...If God forbid that Eric Clapton was to die from an accidental mix of sleeping pills and cough medicine, most likely an autopsy would find a man in relatively good health....The autopsy would say he showed no signs of heavy drug usage...Because he was no longer doing drugs like a mad man...He had it under control...But as he always notes in interviews, every day is a struggle for addicts whether it's pills or booze or heroin.. I think the second worst thing besides MJ's tragic death for all of us fans was the autopsy...Because it merely fed into some of the more hardcore MJ fans' warped view of him as a person... | |
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angel345 said: MOL said: He admitted in 1993 and after some months went to rehab. It doesn't mean he was a junkie all his life. I was agreeing with you that because of his past addiction, it could benefit Murray's case, and that's why I said man, it's tough. Sorry for the misinterpretation! You're completely right.  | |
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murph said: MOL said: No, angel. The doctor will get away because it will be convenient to too many people to claim MJ was a junkie and a crazy person. And those claims are essential to the defense. Remember those claims are also important to invalidate wills, sue big companies (AEG) and get monthly allowances. Get why Muraay will walk away (though he is as guilty as sin)? [Edited 4/3/10 13:19pm] You still don't get it do you?...lol...If God forbid that Eric Clapton was to die from an accidental mix of sleeping pills and cough medicine, most likely an autopsy would find a man in relatively good health....The autopsy would say he showed no signs of heavy drug usage...Because he was no longer doing drugs like a mad man...He had it under control...But as he always notes in interviews, every day is a struggle for addicts whether it's pills or booze or heroin.. I think the second worst thing besides MJ's tragic death for all of us fans was the autopsy...Because it merely fed into some of the more hardcore MJ fans' warped view of him as a person... And where is the dramatic end? | |
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MOL said: murph said: No... But someone who feels like he/she has to take pills to sleep is an addict....It may not be from the specific drug that he or she is taking...When you have a history of drug usage it all becomes part of your physical, emotional and mental make-up...MJ was always dealing with this...That's the daily struggle of all addicts... Sorry, perhaps I'm just too slow for your mighty intelligence but your "no" defines the answer. The rest contradicts your "No" in the beginning of the sentence. [The Dramatic end] But, oh well, that's the daily struggle of all addicts [with the dramatic punctuation] ... [Edited 4/3/10 13:26pm] No mighty intelligence needed...Just spend some times with some addicts and you will understand... | |
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MOL said: BabyBeMine said: I completely disagree that all the brothers were bugging MJ about getting back together to the point where he was so annoyed to the point he wanted nothing to do with them. Just watching the Jackson Reality show the only one that's obsessed with getting back together is Jermaine. Marlon can really care less and didn't even look to motivated so that's 1, Tito to me doesn't look obsessed with getting back together so thats 2. I don't picture Tito and Marlon when they see MJ in person bugging him lets get back together one last time everytime they see him to the point where its annoying where he wants very little to do with them. I don't picture Jackie bugging MJ constantly about it either to the point where MJ wants very little to do with him.
Your going off MJ's own words of everytime i see them they always want to get back together. Considering MJ has lied several times from the Bashir interview to the ridiculous police brutality thing that was most likely a lie as well. Marlon is the coolest dude and funny, how can you not want to chill with him and eat some Gumbo LOL...Only MJ It doesn't matter what you picture. BTW, are we talking about the same Tito? Or did you forget that, two days after TII was announced, Tito said: "I hope Michael still finds time to do a tour with us." [refering to TII being Michael's curtain call]? Something you obviously don't know; do you know who sued Michael in May over a reunion tour? If you did, you wouldn't be saying that. Ohhh...and don't be so naive, Baby. You saw the brothers acting...in front of a camara. It's obvious that they are not going to do anything "evil" and will try to pass the "perfect family" image. [Edited 4/3/10 12:46pm] So because Tito makes that comment or because he might make it to MJ once in a while that means you want nothing to do with them. MJ isn't the only solo artist who performed in a group and members maybe asked lets tour one more time. This is not the reason MJ didnt want to see his family. The true reason MJ didnt want his family to see him was because he had a addiction and he didnt want them to see him like that and he was annoyed when they tried to step in. Thats why. Not because they occassionally say hey Mike lets try and get back together and tour. Thats not reason to want nothing to do with them. MJ was annoyed they asked him about his addiction and telling him that he needs help and like Janet said he was in denial. Janet has her own career and MJ wanted nothing to do with her either so you can't use the excuse Janet wants to get back together because she wasn't even in the group. | |
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MOL said: murph said: You still don't get it do you?...lol...If God forbid that Eric Clapton was to die from an accidental mix of sleeping pills and cough medicine, most likely an autopsy would find a man in relatively good health....The autopsy would say he showed no signs of heavy drug usage...Because he was no longer doing drugs like a mad man...He had it under control...But as he always notes in interviews, every day is a struggle for addicts whether it's pills or booze or heroin.. I think the second worst thing besides MJ's tragic death for all of us fans was the autopsy...Because it merely fed into some of the more hardcore MJ fans' warped view of him as a person... And where is the dramatic end? It lies with some of you guys...U make it too easy...I'm a MJ fan...And I usually take up for the man when it comes to folks' dismissive view of his overall talents....But I can also separate the man from the myth...Which is what some fans are clearly unable to do... | |
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MOL said: angel345 said: It's possible, considering MJ has admitted his addiction to painkillers. It's tough He admitted in 1993 and after some months went to rehab. It doesn't mean he was a junkie all his life. Again...lol...You don't have to be a "junkie" to be an addict.... | |
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WaterInYourBath said: murph said: The only view of addiction is the correct view...If you need something to function, you are an addict...The only difference is there are various levels of addiction whether it's cigarettes, booze, or crack...But addiction is addiction... Sorry Murph, but that's not true. That's so not true....Millions of people need all types of supplements to live normally/healthily, whether they are prescriptions, vitamins, or herbal remedies, and not by choice either. So it's not fair for you to say that. We ALL need water and food to function. Does that make all of us addicts? When did I ever say all addiction was by choice?...A person that takes vitamins every day is different than someone who has to have a drink everyday in order to keep from not going nuts....And some folks become alcoholics (or drug addicts) because it's in their genes... WaterInYourBath said: I'm not trying to defend every mistake Mike made. He caused a lot of the pain he ended up needing to take painkillers for. But that still does not compare to true voluntary "addicts" like the examples you named. They said: "Hmm, I think I'll try some cocaine today. Why not?" Michael said: "Gosh, my head, neck, back, face, and knees are hurting. What can I do to stop this pain?" See the difference? That's just my perspective.
But here's the thing...I'm not trying to make it out to seem like MJ made "mistakes"...What I'm trying to show is the man was human...Again, i think i stated that most prescription addicts started using because of LEGIT pain...That's how it mostly always happens...MJ was in pain...He had to take prescription pills...And he became addictive...His pill prescription problem were not unlike many Americans...He was human... | |
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