"I'm not sharin' a stage with that motherfucker."





The perennial argument that has truly divided the jazz world, each side of the debate fiercely arguing that the OTHER sides music isn't jazz.

Each icon epitomises these two conflicting ideologies.

Wynton Marsalis is a bad trumpeteer, real good at improvisation, and his music swings but his music isn't challenging. He believes jazz is America's classical music, a tradition that should be preserved, "museum music" as his detractors call it, and whether you like it or not, it would appear the general buying public agrees with him as he is generally regarded as the mouthpiece of contemporary jazz.

Miles Davis, another bad trumpeteer, miles may be dead, but the spirit of his music lives on in the innovators of todays jazz, mostly in avant-garde. The spirit of artistic restlessness, constant evolution and straying, farther and farther away from the dixieland from which jazz blossomed. Some, like Wynton, say it's strayed too far, and isn't jazz.

Which side are you on?

Miles.
[Edited 3/8/10 23:34pm]

I love them both.

It's wrong to say Wynton's music isn't "challenging" though (I'd like to see you try and play his take on "Cherokee"!). It's more that his music is more traditional/historic. But that music is still just as "challenging" in terms of its virtuosic requirements.

Miles made a career out of saying "F.U" to the establishment, and I think he saw Wynton and his crew as part of that establishment. He was just doing what he'd always done. But I always thought that was a bit one-dimensional of him, as there was a whole school of young and fresh players in the '80s that loved to play the 'old' sound (and to be honest, there was more of a market for it as well as the general public had become weary of the 'limitlessness' of fusion. As much as he'd hate to admit it, even Miles's music became more accessible late in his career - mixing elements of pop and funk to his brew).

Sometimes people put too much weight on being 'experimental'. If all music is 'experimental', then there's no common ground for people to experience a shared meaning. As much as music is instilled in our genes, there's also an element of it that is "learned" and thus shared by the community. People like Wynton exemplify that.

But similarly I always thought Wynton took that aspect a little too much to heart, and almost to kind of prove his point continued to present himself as the statesman of so-called "good" jazz to the point now where it wouldn't be out of place to label his music as "muesum music". I would have loved to have seen him have a go at something more experimental. An opportunity missed, perhaps.

But ultimately, I think their rivalry was healthy for music. It's very much a 'yin-yang' thing. Wynton asks his listeners to reflect and rejoice... Miles's asks his to question... Each opinions are equally valid.

Sandino said:

I think thats unfair to Mr.Marsalis to bill him against Miles Davis.

With that said, I never quite figured out the resentment against Wynton and it seemed like it climaxed after Ken Burns' Jazz film,,,although in this case, I understand why.

toejam said:

Great post Ya know, its funny how some attack jazz purists when THEY too have a purist stance/idea on how should jazz music be presented.

But as much as I respect Wynton, I didn't like how he & Stanley Crouch discredit the fusion era of the 70s when they participated in Jazz.
[Edited 3/9/10 0:44am]

Miles Davis

Mr. Marsalis is a very articulent and eloquent man. He's done a lot of the heavy lifting in building an instituion for jazz (MET) and extending his skills to jazz/music education. But Mr. Marsalis music is boring as hell, formulaic, and redundant. If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, he needs to apologize.. for he has failed at this miserably. He is to Duke Ellington what composer Antonio Salieri was to Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, the difference being Salieri came to realize his musical mediocrity.

As far as the feud with Mr. Davis.....

Mr. Davis believed Mr. Marsalis allowed himself to be used by Davis's enemies. some fellow musicians but primarily music critics. Davis cussing Marsalis out, Mr. Davis said Mr. Marsalis had committed a fauz pas when he appeared on stage with him without asking permission. Davis noted, as close as he was to Mr. Dizzy Gillespie, they never went on stage at each others concerts without asking permission.


I'm not on either side for personal reasons (why would I be) but artistically, tha's a whole different matter.
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[Edited 3/9/10 1:04am]

toejam said:

Like I said, f*** Wynton Marsalis!

AFAIC, Louis Armstrong & Miles Davis are the original kings of all jazz trumpeters. These 2 are like the Michael Jackson & Prince of the genre.

Wynton is like Usher.