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PrintableGiovanni777 said: abigail05 said: I adore Frank's music, but try not to get to know the man he was. He seemed like a major dick. An FBI agent is alleged to have said about him: He had a hoodlum complex. Seems about right.
NO. Seems about WRONG. Frank was tough, and stuck up 4 what he believed in, in a time when it wasn't "popular" 2 do so. He hated the names he heard (and received) when he was a kid, and fought prejudice 4 the rest of his life, and in a very genuine way. He used his power 2 INSIST that Black artists get paid well, threatening 2 never play at a venue again if they didn't do so. He loved Billie Holiday, also stated her as a major influence, then later paying her hospital bills, etc. He gave anonymously 2 several causes, the biggest being the Civil Rights movement. Frank coined a young Quincy Jones "The Q", which stuck obviously. Mob connections? U do know that Frank essentially got JFK elected, and not just with money. JFK's father asked Frank if he could swing the votes in West Virginia, by using the unions. JFK couldn't win without it, and no way would a Catholic Northerner who supported Civil Rights get the vote there. Frank asked Sam Giacana 4 this favor, and it was granted. Ironically, after JFK was elected, and made his prick brother, Bobby Kennedy, Attorney General, Bobby then went after Italian organized crime, including Sam Giancana. ANYWAY... Musically, Frank's voice was outstanding, with killer rhythm and phrasing... especially after the "idol/crooner" Columbia years... The Capitol years and Reprise years were the best. Frank started Reprise records 2 provide a, well... reprise from the major labels. More freedom 4 the artists who he signed, as 2 material and recording technique. Thanks for laying that out Giovanni777. It's hard to not respect a man like Sinatra. | |
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Not so much Frank, but have always liked Dean Martins voice, he did some amazing versions of songs and his own songs.
Its good to like easy listening as well, I love it when an easy listening song comes on in between all the Prince and camp pop music (Grace Jones etc, Disco, Pet Shop boys etc). So what are u going 2 do? R u just gonna sit there and watch? I'm not gonna stop until the war is over. Its gonna take a long time | |
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I too was raised listening to a lot of this music, so I'm a big fan!
I love Tony Bennett too. He's an awesome entertainer and artist and is still going strong in his 80's. | |
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carlcranshaw said: The Summit are indeed the Summit.
Let's all drink a shot of Jack and tip our hats to Frank, Sammy, Dean, Joey and Peter.   | |
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NewPowerToad said: abigail05 said: I adore Frank's music, but try not to get to know the man he was. He seemed like a major dick. An FBI agent is alleged to have said about him: He had a hoodlum complex. Seems about right.
Yeah, but it's also been said by anyone that knew him, that Frank was the most generous thoughtful man you would ever wanna be friends with. Hell, when Sammy Davis Jr wanted to marry swedish actress May Britt, he asked Frank to stand up for him. Frank put his career on the line for standing up for his friend, because at the time, the idea of a black man marrying a white woman was unheard of. The wedding was ultimately postponed, but for Frank to not even think twice about doing what was right, and put his reputation on the line, was a big statement of his charachter. And not to mention, he was one of the first who looked past color, and helped bring Sammy to Las Vegas. Sinatra may have been a hardass, and have mob ties. But he always treated everyone with the utmost respect, until you crossed him. Then you might of well have been dead to him. 
Peter learned that lesson the hard way after Frank kicked him out of The Summit. Never mind that Peter's brother-in-law, President Kennedy was the one responsible for screwing The Summit over. | |
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Sinatra had a kind of cool matched by few. Most performers these days couldn't hold a candle to the guy.
My favourite of the bunch was easily Sammy Davis Jr though. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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Giovanni777 said: abigail05 said: I adore Frank's music, but try not to get to know the man he was. He seemed like a major dick. An FBI agent is alleged to have said about him: He had a hoodlum complex. Seems about right.
NO. Seems about WRONG. Frank was tough, and stuck up 4 what he believed in, in a time when it wasn't "popular" 2 do so. He hated the names he heard (and received) when he was a kid, and fought prejudice 4 the rest of his life, and in a very genuine way. He used his power 2 INSIST that Black artists get paid well, threatening 2 never play at a venue again if they didn't do so. He loved Billie Holiday, also stated her as a major influence, then later paying her hospital bills, etc. He gave anonymously 2 several causes, the biggest being the Civil Rights movement. Frank coined a young Quincy Jones "The Q", which stuck obviously. Mob connections? U do know that Frank essentially got JFK elected, and not just with money. JFK's father asked Frank if he could swing the votes in West Virginia, by using the unions. JFK couldn't win without it, and no way would a Catholic Northerner who supported Civil Rights get the vote there. Frank asked Sam Giacana 4 this favor, and it was granted. Ironically, after JFK was elected, and made his prick brother, Bobby Kennedy, Attorney General, Bobby then went after Italian organized crime, including Sam Giancana. ANYWAY... Musically, Frank's voice was outstanding, with killer rhythm and phrasing... especially after the "idol/crooner" Columbia years... The Capitol years and Reprise years were the best. Frank started Reprise records 2 provide a, well... reprise from the major labels. More freedom 4 the artists who he signed, as 2 material and recording technique. Frank did a lot of nice, humanistic things. Good for him. By what you wrote I see that he also aligned himself with hoodlums. | |
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meow85 said: Sinatra had a kind of cool matched by few. Most performers these days couldn't hold a candle to the guy.
My favourite of the bunch was easily Sammy Davis Jr though. I love Sammy...but out of Dean and Frank, I love Frank's voice the most. It was so smooth and precise. I can listen to his music any day.I will forever love and miss you...my sweet Prince. | |
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Giovanni777 said: missfee said: I've always loved that picture.  I want to frame it and put it on my wall in my house.That's funny, 'cause I do have it hanging in my house... Wanna come? ; ) Oh sure.....  I will forever love and miss you...my sweet Prince. | |
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When I was a kid, I was naive enough to think that Frank Sinatra was an evil man because of his mob ties.
The way the Frank Sinatra character was portrayed in the Godfather, also may have influenced me. As I got older, I learned to respect the guy a little more, especially when I realized the nature of show business, and all of the shady characters in it. But what I still couldn't get past is how much Sammy Davis looked like a clown when he was with Dean and Frank. Sammy, as talented as he was, acted like he was the junior partner. In America of the 1950's, he probably had to play that persona, not be too "uppity", in order to get accepted. The marrying of Mae Britt, the conversion to Judaism, the Steppin Fechit persona while on stage, just seemed to make me withdraw from 1950's and 60's Sammy. Or maybe I am reading too much into it. The three main guys in the crew, Davis, Sinatra, and Martin were giants in their field and genuine friends. Lawford and Bishop just couldn't captivate a stage like the other three. Sinatra was a champion of real music by real musicians, Dean Martin was probably the toughest of three, and Davis, the most versatile. I loved how they dressed and how they partied. A talented and popular group of guys who never took themselves too seriously, the Rat Pack rules!   
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Alasseon said: When I was a kid, I was naive enough to think that Frank Sinatra was an evil man because of his mob ties.
The way the Frank Sinatra character was portrayed in the Godfather, also may have influenced me. As I got older, I learned to respect the guy a little more, especially when I realized the nature of show business, and all of the shady characters in it. But what I still couldn't get past is how much Sammy Davis looked like a clown when he was with Dean and Frank. Sammy, as talented as he was, acted like he was the junior partner. In America of the 1950's, he probably had to play that persona, not be too "uppity", in order to get accepted. The marrying of Mae Britt, the conversion to Judaism, the Steppin Fechit persona while on stage, just seemed to make me withdraw from 1950's and 60's Sammy. Or maybe I am reading too much into it. The three main guys in the crew, Davis, Sinatra, and Martin were giants in their field and genuine friends. Lawford and Bishop just couldn't captivate a stage like the other three. Sinatra was a champion of real music by real musicians, Dean Martin was probably the toughest of three, and Davis, the most versatile. I loved how they dressed and how they partied. A talented and popular group of guys who never took themselves too seriously, the Rat Pack rules! I heard Frank was upset at the Johnny Fontaine character(played by Al Martino). Years ago Martino claimed on the Howard Stern show Sinatra black-balled him in the industry. Who knows? I think you're right on about Sammy's role. But, that's the way it was back in those days. I wonder if that story is true about the mob causing Sammy's accident? No one did it like the rat Pack - drink, smoke, party, gamble, bang some showgirls, then do a show. | |
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Thats exactly the reason why I cringe everytime I watch the "Rat Pack" - Sammy Davis' "happy slave" routine.
BUT then again, I understand where he came from,,,,and also, for all the coonery & buffonery, there's NO mistaking the substance that the man possessed, he was truly a gifted man. My heart grew soft for him when he explained his "Uncle Tom" act in his famous Arsenio Hall interview. There's def more to him than his minstrel show persona. | |
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The Rat Pack:
  [Edited 3/4/10 18:32pm] I will forever love and miss you...my sweet Prince. | |
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Harlepolis said:[quote]Thats exactly the reason why I cringe everytime I watch the "Rat Pack" - Sammy Davis' "happy slave" routine.
BUT then again, I understand where he came from,,,,and also, for all the coonery & buffonery, there's NO mistaking the substance that the man possessed, he was truly a gifted man. My heart grew soft for him when he explained his "Uncle Tom" act in his famous Arsenio Hall interview. There's def more to him than his minstrel show persona.
One the best interviews I've seen with Mr. Davis is with Tony Brown... I'd say 74/75. Davis had really torn his ass with black folks when he had gone to the White House huggin up on President Nixon. I was surprised with his blunt assessment of some of the choices he made and admitted to "Tomin'" and it had cost him his own self-respect. Basically he said, he trying to navigate through all the bullshit and made some choices he later regretted. Tony Brown needs make his show available on DVD, maybe he has. The man did some amazing interviews/shows in the 70's. ===== [Edited 3/5/10 5:53am] | |
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TD3 said:[quote] Harlepolis said: Thats exactly the reason why I cringe everytime I watch the "Rat Pack" - Sammy Davis' "happy slave" routine.
BUT then again, I understand where he came from,,,,and also, for all the coonery & buffonery, there's NO mistaking the substance that the man possessed, he was truly a gifted man. My heart grew soft for him when he explained his "Uncle Tom" act in his famous Arsenio Hall interview. There's def more to him than his minstrel show persona.
One the best interviews I've seen with Mr. Davis is with Tony Brown... I'd say 74/75. Davis had really torn his ass with black folks when he had gone to the White House [i]huggin[/i' up on President Nixon. I was surprised with his blunt assessment of some of the choices he made and admitted to "Tomin'" and it had cost him his own self-respect. Basically he said, he trying to navigate through all the bullshit and made some choices he later regretted. Tony Brown needs make his show available on DVD, maybe he has. The man did some amazing interviews/shows in the 70's. It's not easy for some people to truly understand what life was like for people of color even within our lifetimes. There is so much self-hatred in the non-white community, where even the light-skinned minorities hate the darker-skinned minorities. It's in every culture on the planet. English speaking, Spanish speaking, Asian countries, everywhere. It's easy to hate Sammy for some of his choices, but it's not easy to understand the world he lived in. Sure, now 50 Cent can revel in who he is and where he came from, but he's standing on the shoulders of all the entertainers, statesmen, and academics who held the door open wide enough for him to wriggle through. For every Flava Flav, you had to have had 100 Chuck D's to redefine what it was to be a black person in society. Sammy Davis was a flawed man; he admitted it himself many times, but he was incredibly talented, and towards the end of his life and his career, he appeared to have come to terms with who he was. To better understand Sammy --- look at Michael Jackson, who as recently as the 1980's ran far away from being "black". Yes, he had vitiligo. How did he get Caucasian children? The vitiligo straighted his hair, straighted his nose, and changed his DNA. O.J. as talented as he was on the field, never did a thing for the Black community until he was accused of murder. Then he remembered who he was. Even Prince, to some degree, didn't fully embrace his funk roots until long after Purple Rain. That's not to say that every bruva with a gheri curl is a self-hating black man, but the entertainment industry of the 20th Century was a crueler beast than today. And today it ain't so nice either...
Some people tell me I've got great legs... | |
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Alasseon said:[quote] TD3 said: Harlepolis said: Thats exactly the reason why I cringe everytime I watch the "Rat Pack" - Sammy Davis' "happy slave" routine.
BUT then again, I understand where he came from,,,,and also, for all the coonery & buffonery, there's NO mistaking the substance that the man possessed, he was truly a gifted man. My heart grew soft for him when he explained his "Uncle Tom" act in his famous Arsenio Hall interview. There's def more to him than his minstrel show persona.
One the best interviews I've seen with Mr. Davis is with Tony Brown... I'd say 74/75. Davis had really torn his ass with black folks when he had gone to the White House [i]huggin[/i' up on President Nixon. I was surprised with his blunt assessment of some of the choices he made and admitted to "Tomin'" and it had cost him his own self-respect. Basically he said, he trying to navigate through all the bullshit and made some choices he later regretted. Tony Brown needs make his show available on DVD, maybe he has. The man did some amazing interviews/shows in the 70's. It's not easy for some people to truly understand what life was like for people of color even within our lifetimes. There is so much self-hatred in the non-white community, where even the light-skinned minorities hate the darker-skinned minorities. It's in every culture on the planet. English speaking, Spanish speaking, Asian countries, everywhere. It's easy to hate Sammy for some of his choices, but it's not easy to understand the world he lived in. Sure, now 50 Cent can revel in who he is and where he came from, but he's standing on the shoulders of all the entertainers, statesmen, and academics who held the door open wide enough for him to wriggle through. For every Flava Flav, you had to have had 100 Chuck D's to redefine what it was to be a black person in society. Sammy Davis was a flawed man; he admitted it himself many times, but he was incredibly talented, and towards the end of his life and his career, he appeared to have come to terms with who he was. To better understand Sammy --- look at Michael Jackson, who as recently as the 1980's ran far away from being "black". Yes, he had vitiligo. How did he get Caucasian children? The vitiligo straighted his hair, straighted his nose, and changed his DNA. O.J. as talented as he was on the field, never did a thing for the Black community until he was accused of murder. Then he remembered who he was. Even Prince, to some degree, didn't fully embrace his funk roots until long after Purple Rain. That's not to say that every bruva with a gheri curl is a self-hating black man, but the entertainment industry of the 20th Century was a crueler beast than today. And today it ain't so nice either...  That's a great statement. I know there are many african americans who criticized Sammy and labeled him an "uncle Tom" or a "wannabee", but as he said on the Arsenio Hall Show, that was just his personality..to be happy and to just entertain. At the same time, he had to please his caucasion fans and co-horts as well, so its like he was at a catch 22. He wasn't black enough for his people, but he definitely wasn't white either. I hate the statement that some african americans make towards each other about "acting white".  I myself has even been told that I "talk white" because I don't do the slang thing and I'm 27. Anywho, I enjoy the rat pack performances because there was overflowing impromptu talent there. We'll never see talent that rich again.I will forever love and miss you...my sweet Prince. | |
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TD3 said: ...Davis had really torn his ass with black folks when he had gone to the White House huggin up on President Nixon.
Hell yeah. Nixon was fucking evil...a dyed-in-the-wool racist/anti-Semite, and here was Sammy kissing his ass. | |
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missfee said: Alasseon said: It's not easy for some people to truly understand what life was like for people of color even within our lifetimes. There is so much self-hatred in the non-white community, where even the light-skinned minorities hate the darker-skinned minorities. It's in every culture on the planet. English speaking, Spanish speaking, Asian countries, everywhere. It's easy to hate Sammy for some of his choices, but it's not easy to understand the world he lived in. Though we've given the latter group because they haven't act nor responded as some of use have wished. 
Sure, now 50 Cent can revel in who he is and where he came from, but he's standing on the shoulders of all the entertainers, statesmen, and academics who held the door open wide enough for him to wriggle through. For every Flava Flav, you had to have had 100 Chuck D's to redefine what it was to be a black person in society. Sammy Davis was a flawed man; he admitted it himself many times, but he was incredibly talented, and towards the end of his life and his career, he appeared to have come to terms with who he was. To better understand Sammy --- look at Michael Jackson, who as recently as the 1980's ran far away from being "black". Yes, he had vitiligo. How did he get Caucasian children? The vitiligo straighted his hair, straighted his nose, and changed his DNA. O.J. as talented as he was on the field, never did a thing for the Black community until he was accused of murder. Then he remembered who he was. Even Prince, to some degree, didn't fully embrace his funk roots until long after Purple Rain. That's not to say that every bruva with a gheri curl is a self-hating black man, but the entertainment industry of the 20th Century was a crueler beast than today. And today it ain't so nice either... That's a great statement. I know there are many african americans who criticized Sammy and labeled him an "uncle Tom" or a "wannabee", but as he said on the Arsenio Hall Show, that was just his personality..to be happy and to just entertain. At the same time, he had to please his caucasion fans and co-horts as well, so its like he was at a catch 22. He wasn't black enough for his people, but he definitely wasn't white either. I hate the statement that some african americans make towards each other about "acting white". I myself has even been told that I "talk white" because I don't do the slang thing and I'm 27. Anywho, I enjoy the rat pack performances because there was overflowing impromptu talent there. We'll never see talent that rich again.There is a big difference between Tomin' (Justice Clarence Thomas as an example) and being a genuinely postive cherryfull person or successful. As far as the "acting white" or "speaking white" this is a very recent addition to the list of self-hatred that exist in our community. Many of the people I grew up with (UpNorth) parents had been sharecroppers.. could neither read nor write but understood the importance of education and speaking standard english. ===== [Edited 3/5/10 13:50pm] | |
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uPtoWnNY said: TD3 said: ...Davis had really torn his ass with black folks when he had gone to the White House huggin up on President Nixon.
Hell yeah. Nixon was fucking evil...a dyed-in-the-wool racist/anti-Semite, and here was Sammy kissing his ass. Why did Sammy get the raw deal while Soul Brother #1 get the pass though? Am I missing something? I mean James left a bad taste in people mouth when he supported Dick but thats about it and sure enough they forgot it Sammy on the other hand was REALLY the one who made folks heat up. I was watching The Jeffersons a couple of days ago and Florence made a remark about I didn't see that much huggin' untill Sammy Davis stopped hanging in the white house  I mean DAMN, even white folks had some slick shit to say(Norman Lear & his writers). | |
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TD3 said: missfee said: That's a great statement. I know there are many african americans who criticized Sammy and labeled him an "uncle Tom" or a "wannabee", but as he said on the Arsenio Hall Show, that was just his personality..to be happy and to just entertain. At the same time, he had to please his caucasion fans and co-horts as well, so its like he was at a catch 22. He wasn't black enough for his people, but he definitely wasn't white either. I hate the statement that some african americans make towards each other about "acting white". I myself has even been told that I "talk white" because I don't do the slang thing and I'm 27. Anywho, I enjoy the rat pack performances because there was overflowing impromptu talent there. We'll never see talent that rich again.There is a big difference between Tomin' (Justice Clarence Thomas as an example) and being a genuinely postive cherryfull person or succesful. As far as the "acting white" or "speaking white" this is a very recent addition to the list of self-hatred that exist in our community. Many of the people I grew up with (UpNorth) parents had been sharecroppers.. could neither read nor write but understood the importance of educations and speaking standard english. ===== [Edited 3/5/10 7:15am] I'm sorry that some of my people equate diction and excellence with "acting white". Or as my brother call it - assimilation
I mean, HOW in the hell did black pride end up being so damn one dimensional? I'm a PROUD black woman, but I'm a complex woman too who don't take labeling very lightly. But then again, black people weren't the FIRST ones who came up with "stay in the box" propaganda, but some of them are as guilty for feeding into it. | |
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TD3 said: As far as the "acting white" or "speaking white" this is a very recent addition to the list of self-hatred that exist in our community. Many of the people I grew up with (UpNorth) parents had been sharecroppers.. could neither read nor write but understood the importance of educations and speaking standard english.
That kind of thinking isn't new. I got hit with the "white boy/sellout/fa***t" tag when I was in grammar/middle school(and that was in the 70s).It's worse for black boys, because you're not seen as "cool" and your manhood is questioned. This kind of thinking isn't unique to America - several Euros of color have told me similar stories. | |
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This is Dedicated To Someone this is my Fav
[Edited 3/5/10 13:56pm] | |
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Harlepolis said: uPtoWnNY said: Hell yeah. Nixon was fucking evil...a dyed-in-the-wool racist/anti-Semite, and here was Sammy kissing his ass. Why did Sammy get the raw deal while Soul Brother #1 get the pass though? Am I missing something? I mean James left a bad taste in people mouth when he supported Dick but thats about it and sure enough they forgot it Sammy on the other hand was REALLY the one who made folks heat up. I was watching The Jeffersons a couple of days ago and Florence made a remark about I didn't see that much huggin' untill Sammy Davis stopped hanging in the white house I mean DAMN, even white folks had some slick shit to say(Norman Lear & his writers).You mean James Brown the clown or Jimmy the Clown.  Oh, he took grief it may not have been as long standing as Mr. Davis but Mr. Brown caught hell.
My take. Perception and timing. I think the anger over James Brown support for Nixon subsided was because there was a feeling/perception Mr. Brown was still apart of the community. Many blacks thought Mr. Davis wasn't apart of our community, which wasn't true he just went about things a little bit more quietly. Perception can be a damning thing. | |
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TD3 said: Harlepolis said: Why did Sammy get the raw deal while Soul Brother #1 get the pass though? Am I missing something? I mean James left a bad taste in people mouth when he supported Dick but thats about it and sure enough they forgot it Sammy on the other hand was REALLY the one who made folks heat up. I was watching The Jeffersons a couple of days ago and Florence made a remark about I didn't see that much huggin' untill Sammy Davis stopped hanging in the white house I mean DAMN, even white folks had some slick shit to say(Norman Lear & his writers).You mean James Brown the clown or Jimmy the Clown. Oh, he took grief it may not have been as long standing as Mr. Davis but Mr. Brown caught hell.
My take. Perception and timing. I think the anger over James Brown support for Nixon subsided was because there was a feeling/perception Mr. Brown was still apart of the community. Many blacks thought Mr. Davis wasn't apart of our community, which wasn't true he just went about things a little bit more quietly. Perception can be a damning thing. Nail. Meet. Head.
While we're on the subject, I also never understood why "Brain Gumble" got the raw deal as well(Ok, I know I seem really naive ) but for real though, I never hobbed on the "Mr.Gumble - New Face Of Uncle Tom" bandwagon.
Now THAT, I know I'm missing something. | |
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I just like the Rat Pa....oops I mean "the Summit" and their performances. They were talented, and they were funny and I love their music and their talent and that's it for me.  I will forever love and miss you...my sweet Prince. | |
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Harlepolis said: TD3 said: You mean James Brown the clown or Jimmy the Clown. Oh, he took grief it may not have been as long standing as Mr. Davis but Mr. Brown caught hell.
My take. Perception and timing. I think the anger over James Brown support for Nixon subsided was because there was a feeling/perception Mr. Brown was still apart of the community. Many blacks thought Mr. Davis wasn't apart of our community, which wasn't true he just went about things a little bit more quietly. Perception can be a damning thing. Nail. Meet. Head.
While we're on the subject, I also never understood why "Brain Gumble" got the raw deal as well(Ok, I know I seem really naive ) but for real though, I never hobbed on the "Mr.Gumble - New Face Of Uncle Tom" bandwagon.
Now THAT, I know I'm missing something.
Gumble's a jerk but the characterization that he's a "Uncle Tom" is utterly ridiculous. He's damn good at what he does and he has said somethings that needed to be said, while many both black and white have kept their mouths shut. I don't know how and the hell he got tagged with that. 
===== [Edited 3/5/10 16:40pm] | |
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missfee said: meow85 said: Sinatra had a kind of cool matched by few. Most performers these days couldn't hold a candle to the guy.
My favourite of the bunch was easily Sammy Davis Jr though. I love Sammy...but out of Dean and Frank, I love Frank's voice the most. It was so smooth and precise. I can listen to his music any day.Buuuuttttt..... You have to admit, Dean's voice had this warmth to it, that Sammy and Frank were missing, he had these crooner style vocals designed for ballads and that would ultimately drive the audience apeshit. Yet Dino was the versatile entertainer too and the drunk routine was apparently an act, most of the time it was apple juice. So what are u going 2 do? R u just gonna sit there and watch? I'm not gonna stop until the war is over. Its gonna take a long time | |
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