Funkmaster3000 said:

So, am i getting it right that an "instrument", to you, is a "traditional instrument"? Do you notice something?

On the other hand, for the first time now you start to talk about you're own taste. Absolutely nothing bad about saying "I'll take my Funk without a Rap". My personal playlists (since some years) consist of 70% pure funk, 20% soul, 5% jazz and other stuff and maybe 5% rap, and that's a high approximation. But saying Rap wasn't music and all the other nonsense you posted above is something different. Sorry for being rude, but i hate when people try to diss a culture as being inferior just because some 50cent no-names made some corny records for MTV.

lafleurdove said:

had to turn em both off right away lol. it felt so hmm ican't even put it in words lol i do remember the wild wild west from the movie though along time ago lol.

So beautiful. lol no words necessary literally. defeats any rapper. i can understand everything he wants to say with out any lyrics.
http://www.youtube.com/wa...McjXo8ZuqE

Right. Your last but one post, together with what you said about the lack of a "classic rap" style or period (you're really serious, eh? LMFAO!!!), just made me realize that you actually don't want to understand, nor to learn.

All your posts contain nothing but nonsense. A-historical, uninformed, ignorant nonsense. Some of the things you said almost made me think you were just a racist asshole, trying to deliver some ho-ho-mean punches to a genuine black subculture. But I ain't goin out like that. I guess it's just your lack of education about music in general. If you knew anything about music, you could appreciate the lyrical and musical genius involved in rap music at least in parts - something which hasn't got anything to do with taste and could be acknowledged with not a single rap record in your collection. Miles Davis, James Brown, Prince, George Clinton, Maceo Parker, and i could go on and on and on, they all know what you're denying: That rap is an integral part of the evolution of music, and they all give credits where due and include hiphop elements in their work. Maybe they all are just wrong, but maybe you are, too.

[Snip - luv4u]

FunkyDissCo said:

what do you mean rap wasn't music. It isn't lol. just joking maybe it is music but most often times the ones who get famous aren't talented. i didn't say rap culture is inferior because i never said anything bout rap culture or hip hop culture.

Funkmaster3000 said:

turntablism http://en.wikipedia.org/w...urntablism
Turntablism is the art of manipulating sounds and creating music using phonograph turntables or digital turntables and a DJ mixer.

The history of the turntable being used as a musical instrument has its roots dating back to the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s when musique concrète and other experimental composers (such as John Cage and Pierre Schaeffer), used them in a manner similar to that of today's producers and DJs, by essentially sampling and creating music that was entirely produced by the turntable. Cage's "Imaginary Landscape No. 1" (1939) is composed for 2 variable speed turntables, frequency recordings, muted piano & cymbal.

Even earlier, Edgard Varèse experimented with turntables in 1930, though he never formally produced any works using them. This school of thought and practice is not directly linked to the current definition of hip hop-related turntablism, though it has had an influence on modern experimental sound artists such as Christian Marclay, Otomo Yoshihide, Philip Jeck and Janek Schaefer. These artists are the direct descendants of people like John Cage and Pierre Schaeffer and are often credited as a variant to the modern turntablist DJ and producer.

Examples of turntable effects can also be found on popular records produced in the 1960s and 1970's. Creedence Clearwater Revival's 1968 self-titled debut album features a backspin effect in the song "Walk on the Water". However, turntablism as we know it now did not surface until the introduction of hip hop in the late 1970s.

Hip hop
Turntablism as a modern art form and musical practice has its roots within hip hop and hip hop culture of the early 1970s. It stems from one of the culture's "five pillars" - DJing (see "five elements," Hip Hop Culture).

people who use this artform are called " turntablists."

FunkyDissCo said:

If i was a racist i wouldn't be on a prince fan site lol. Second of all. Just because i don't like rap doesn't mean i'm a racist. lol i never called you any names. so relax man. whats wrong with a debate. if there was some good rap id listento it maybe to my definition of good rap. I mean some Ratm songs are good but other than maybe a few random songs its not my cup of tea. Sure its evolution but it hasn't evolved in a good way because the music that predated set the bar so high rap couldn't follow it.

Calling RATM a "rap act" once again proves your own complete illiterateness. All you're saying has a racist touch to it, at least for me. Think about why people think that of you.

Here's some of your greatest misses about rap music and other related nonsense. Yeah, i spent some 5 minutes on grabbing them, LOL... Read it again. Is that really you? Poor you.



The point is, 95% of those statements are just factually wrong. Again, this is nothing about personal taste.




This is the statement i would ban you for if this was my website, for expressing perfectly racist views.






Question: Are you american? If so, then who does? LOL!

Funkmaster3000 said:

And your opinion is respected,but you're well aware that someone older or younger than you would disagree.Rap is almost 40yrs old and already has a golder era and a classic songs.You don't know this because you're not familiar with this genre. Someone mentioned Pharaoh Monche..him, Big L, and other rappers you have never heard are considered top shelf lyricist but you bring up inferior lyricist that you've been "exposed" to.Hence your generalizations...Answer me this.why when they talk about "greatest albums of all time", "Low End Theory" and "It takes a Nation.." is always mentioned? ...hmm maybe it's because of "quality"

Funkmaster3000 said:

It's ok to drop names like Satriani or Stevie Vai and they are masters at the guitar..what we're trying to tell you is that there's more to the world than that.I know they're rock gods..I grew up on rock and listen to Janes Addiction way more than Jay Z..but I would NEVER demean another music form.No musician would do that and no musician has ever question rap's legitimacy.

Sorry to inform you but a turntable is an instrument..you're just going to have to get over it

To say rap isn't sexy nor explosive exposes you're ignorance to this subject once again..Big Daddy Kane's whole vibe was sexy and when I hear Outkast's "Bombs Over Baghdad"..i hear bombs going off.

FunkyDissCo said:

Lol i never said anything racist and never implied anything about race. i just don't like rap.lol. I never even mentioned it once. you brought it up not me. Im not calling RATM a rap act. Im calling it a rap rock act because it is heavily rap influenced.

SavonOsco said:

Im trying to say that its whole other level of sexiness. These people don't need to use anything but their instruments to be sexy and in rap there really are no dominant instruments to do so and the turntable come on. When i saw bombs i mean explosive riffs. Like My michelle that explosion or welcome to the jungle the way it builds to that main riff.

SavonOsco said:

Look im just going to say this once more im about musicanship. theres almost none in the rap world. When i listen to music i disect every instrument. When i listen to rap i don't necessarily care about the lyrics as long as they aren't to bad or to corny. (which alot of them are in many genres) i listen to bass which in rap never solos. I listen to the guitar which is non existant usually. I listen to the drum which again never solos. I like when musicans broadcast their talent. In rap they don't do that. I love Joe satriani because he doesn't need any one to sing his songs because he is able to broadcast his ability and his emotions with just a guitar. Thats the deepest meaning to me in music. Being able to understand the writter of the song with out hearing any lyrics which is almost impossible in rap. because in rap you need lyrics. Not saying i hate lyrics, i like people who sing. If you want to talk fast talk fast. but if you want to put your voice in music, how about you sing. it just repulses me how artists nowadays just have no talent and get famous. i don't hate all rappers i hate the faces of rap mostley because they repersent the genre and im sorry if your offended by me making fun of rap but i didn't choose who would be the face of rap. i believe rap has pontential but it still hasn't reached it. They need to focus more on musical talent. Im listening to jethro tull at the moment and im going wow listening to ian andersons flute. gimme someone like that in rap . "Bouree" the song to be exact
http://www.youtube.com/wa...2RNe2jwHE0
so beast
[Edited 2/3/10 21:32pm]

Funkmaster3000 said:

Commander Cody's "Hot Rod Lincoln" (1972) C.W. McCall's "Convoy" (1975) are two examples of country hits that involved rapping
---

rapping refers to "spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics with a strong rhythmic accompaniment. (are these country musicians not "rapping?" are you going to find a logical viewpoint to express an appreciation of this type of rap?)

realize:
turntables were used in many cases as musical instruments as they were easier to obtain more accessible, due to economics of many urban areas.
being able to afford music lessons and buying actual musical instruments was a dream for many of the young male dwellers in these areas. however they did not let the issue of econmics squelch their musical creative drive.
(i know how expensive music lessons as well as buying a reliable instrument, i've paid out $30 dollars weekly for a half hour lesson for 3yrs for my teen. there a many people who can't afford to do this. i've even cleaned houses beside my regular job to be able to so, and i only have 1)
so:
if you look at some of the history of white american music you will see the similarities of how econmics affected the development of music.

like the:
jug and barrel bands of the rural areas of the white south, although some (psuedo) elitists would not call this type of sound music.

1, the washtub bass, or "gutbucket". the gutbucket is a stringed instrument used in American folk music that uses a metal washtub as a resonator
also:
2. a jug band is a band employing a jug player and a mix of traditional and home-made instruments.
the jug sound is made by taking a jug (usually made of glass or stoneware) and buzzing the lips into its mouth from about an inch away. As with brass instruments, changes in pitch are controlled by altering lip tension, an accomplished jug player could have a two octave range such instruments were developed in these ares due to the economics and poverty.
today this history in music is embraced as part of valuable part of american history.

(note: these instruments were created and developed by poor blacks, then appreciated and taken over by whites and was then developed into an acceptable and appreciated artform.

lastly a side bar regarding the Roots of rapping:
Rapping can be traced back to its African roots. Centuries before hip hop music existed, the griots of West Africa were delivering stories rhythmically, over drums and sparse instrumentation. My thanks to the country gentlemen who delved into the roots of the artform known as "rapping."

On a sidenote, again, you're mixing things up. You're looking for vocalists "keeping the tone" in rap, and you're looking for bass solos in rap. That's not what rap is about, mainly. You're making a serious mistake here in applying categories of one world onto another. Hey, i just listened to the complete LedZep debut album and i couldn't find one good sample and no catchy punchline. It doesn't have one good scratch on it, and absolutely nothing which comes close to the funky phat synth basslines on Dre's Chronic album. Also, it completely lacks the political consciousness and explicitness of Public Enemy. Does that make Led Zeppelin a bad band? No, of course.

I then switched to some John Coltrane, and i couldn't find a stunning guitar solo on it either. Am I missing something?`Or is he just a lousy rock artist?

You're understanding of music is seriously bounded. Try to open your mind, and if you decide not to do so, stop stating false facts. It's pathetic.

Funkmaster3000 said:

I love Jethro Tull..but you're again exposing yourself to not knowing the genre..flutes?.listen to Tribe Called Quest,Pete Rock,The Roots,Groove Collective,Ozmalti,Common..you'll get flutes,violins,harps,sitars,all types of instruments.This is what we are trying to tell you..there's more to rap than the pop stuff you hear on the radio.

Jazz artists would speak over music,sometimes during their scat moments..basically a precursor to todays' spoken word genre.Are you going to sit here and tell me that's not music?..that required no talent?
Indian and African tribe would tell stories to drum backbeats, really no different than rap..are you going to tell me that required no talent?
These two instances are way before you're beloved guitar rock..lol..I get it,if you can't read music and play an instrument then you're a fraud..that's what you're saying.How about I switch it around.If you can't program a drum pattern,add some bass and synths and put lyrics over that track,then you're a fraud.Based on your theory..I know how to play their instruments,but I doubt if they can play mine.

Someone get this guy one of Guru's Jazzmatazz albums

I agree with those of you who said that old-school rap was more about social commentary and was more light-hearted. I love rap music from the 80's, but I honestly don't like the rap music that is on the radio today.

"Friends" by Whodini is my jam right there. it!

Funkmaster3000 said:

Your percentages are way off. I can pull up many good rap songs and smart rappers.
The same standard can be held for most other forms of music as well. The so-called "powers that be" want rap to have a certain image, which is why 50 Cent is one of the highest selling rappers ever while at the same time being one of the worst in the genre.
In R&B you have singers like Ledisi and Anthony David with great voices and good songs while Cassie and Rihanna and gimmick artists like T-Pain get the limelight. Its very deliberate and not in the hands of the R&B community just like who shines in rap is not in the hands of the hip-hop community.
[Edited 2/4/10 11:21am]

FunkyDissCo said:

what do you mean by good samples or punchlines lol. did you hear the riff explode in how many more times? did you hear how explosive plants vocals are in babe im going to leave you? Did you hear the complete acoustic awesomeness in black mountain side? The mega bluesy you shook me and i can't quit you babe? whose lousy led zeppelin or john coltrane. but there are some stunning solos by coltrane and zeppelin. Not only guitar solos, bass solos, drum solos, sax solos are all good for me. And im sorry im not willing to debate this but no dre album can even stand up to led zeppelin 1. And with the bass solos in rap. I know im looking in the genre. lol. my point is because rap really has no solos, i don't like it. I don't need to hear a solo to like a song. I just like to know the artist has the ability to play one really good.

bboy87 said:

1st one wasn't bad. Didn't like the 2nd one. the 3rd one was weird with a beast ass drum solo. mega beast. if rap was more like the 1st one maybe i'd respect it more. But they don't get the limelight. and when i say i hate rap im usually talking about the artists who are most associated with the genre. like when we talk american presidents people don't talk about franklin pierce or john tyler. we talk about fdr, and lincoln.
[Edited 2/4/10 14:21pm]

Where you are messing up is you are using rock music for your examples. When you use rock for examples, the door is always left open for someone else to say "If you don't like rap, then simply don't listen to it" which is true in rock's case, just like I don't like country music and I simply don't listen to it but I have nothing against it, it just ain't what I like.

It's a whole different story though if you use funk or R&B as your examples because it is R&B radio that has been overrun and contaminated by shit hop and now you have to "search for good R&B or funk" when it should be the other way around...you should have to be searching for good shit hop (if there is such a thing). It's a little more complicated than simply "don't listen to it" then because there is nothing else new to listen to unless you "search for it" which I refuse to do. It's like some thug trash coming in, taking over, and throwing you out of your house. You're going to be pissed.

As for rappers never playing instruments, that's not fully true. In the early years, they did have instruments on their records with original grooves and sometimes bands. Kurtis Blow had original music, so did Newcleus, Egyptian Lover, Run DMC, Divine Sounds, Twilight 22, and endless others and even folks like Soul Sonic Force who may have borrowed from Kraftwerk, still remade the groove rather than sampling it. Of course, folks will say..."well, that's electro, not hip hop" but the truth is, there was no such genre as electro back when those groups were out, they were simply called either rap or hip hop. People come up with excuses for dismissing them as electro because they don't want to admit that the majority of shit hop for the last 20 years has been a bunch of bullshit. In the early 1980s and on into the late 1980s, the majority of rap or hip hop was actually funk that just had rapped lyrics rather than sung lyrics. That's back when it was "hip hop". When it become stripped down of instruments and the tempo slowed down to midtempo with just a "beat with some talking", that's when it became shit hop and it has been shit hop since the early 1990s after hip house and Miami bass type rap disappeared. I'll break it down and make it simple, if you can't shake ass to it, then it's shit hop and has no place on the radio. If someone simply wants "poetry", then they need to go to some dorky poetry club where folks wear black turtleneck sweaters and shades and beat on bongos reciting poetry. The radio should be for jams.
.
.
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[Edited 2/4/10 14:37pm]

vainandy said:

Thank god. They helped put the shit in shit hop.

Uh....excuse me but that type of rap was fast as hell. The absolute definition of shit hop is midtempo moreso than sampling. Hell, I could tolerate a sample every blue moon if it jams.

vainandy said:

i never said rappers don't know how to play instruments i said they usually don't. I mean people call jimi hendrix a guitar god. you never hear of any rappers getting such titles and not only for guitar for any instrument.

Funkmaster3000 said:

That movie you refer to is, if I'm not mistaken, "Wild Wild West" with Will Smith. You say that you remember it from that movie "along time ago lol." Usually, if someone calls a film that was made in 1999 really old and adds a "lol" to this statement, it's because this someone is pretty young, probably born in the '90s.
So let me ask... How old are you?

With the return of Andy, it's official now. This thread is dead. It never had a chance. R.I.P. See you...

VenusBlingBling said:

i meant i can't believe its been 11 years since the movie came out. it feels just like yesterday i saw it in the theatre. Time really flies. I remember the song and dance being everywhere .

Even if they wanted to play instruments, the record label wouldn't let them. It's a plague in R&B as well as rap. I consider the entire R&B scene whether it's singers or rappers as shit hop because it all has those horrible weak shit hop sounding drum machines which define the cheap shit hop sound.

For example, I heard Anthony Hamilton (an R&B singer) rehearsing some song about a bigbone or redbone woman or something or other, for a concert. I heard a full band with real drums pounding and it was sounding funky as hell. I could feel my ass wanting to shake just like the old days. However, when I got in my car to go home, I heard the same Anthony Hamilton song on the radio with some weak shit hop sounding drum machines and it sounded like a shitty shit hop mess.

Something apparently is going on here other than someone like him using a band to sound good in concert because why couldn't he have recorded his album with that same band? If he had, he probably would have gotten no radio airplay because radio (which is a monopoly just like labels are) isn't going to let something that cost more to make possibly change people's tastes and threaten their cheaply made shit hop acts.