DesireeNevermind said:

really?! I could tell it was his son without even seeing the words at first. Although they dont look exactly alike or anything I can totally see the young Marlon in him.

lowkey said:

I'm not adressing your whole post. But just the last sentence you made I have to disagree with. Its perfectly acceptable to believe some things Latoya and Quincy say and not other things they say. Do you honestly have people in your life where you dont believe a word one says and others where you believe everything that comes out of their mouth? Thats not normal. Individuals lie sometimes and tell the truth sometimes. Distinguishing is about having valuable sources who back up information or not. Some things Latoya says are backed up by Michael himself in private conversations, and some things like Quincys insults are just assumptions really.

Arnotts said:

You are right Arnotts, but don't expect Lowkey to understand your post.

angel345 said:

I'm not calling MJ crazy. And, yes, Neverland, according to many, was a beautiful, pure place. I was just saying that Neverland is a material proof of MJ's difficult childhood. I don't think the man was crazy: I'm a big fan!!!

DesireeNevermind said:

EXACTLY! Amazing post!

A good example of what you said is the fact that Joe showed affection to Joh'Vonnie, while treating the other kids, but Jermaine, like dogs. Joe kissed and hugged his love child, he let her call him "daddy", he showered her with gifts and was, basically, an amazing dad to her. That's why I don't buy the "Joe doesn't know how to show affection because he had a tough childhood" argument. He knew how to show it! He knew it damn well.

I remember a Latoya story in which she talked about Joe telling his chauffer to leave his car at home. The chauffer left the car in Hayvenhurst. Five minutes latter, the chauffer comes back to the car and gets out of Hayvenhurst. Where did the chauffer go? He went to the house Joe had bought to Cheryl Teryl, Joh'Vonnie's mother. To Joe, Hayvenhurst was a house while the house where Joh'Vonnie lived was his home. Even Michael says that Joe treated his love child like a princess while treating his other children like shit. I remember a story in Margaret's book in which she talks about a party Joe organized. Randy went to the party and Joe, out of pure malice, called Randy's ex-wife and then told bodyguards that his youngest son was drunk (a lie) and, therefore, they needed to take him out of the house. Joe did things to his children (the ones he had with Kate) out of pure malice. In a sick way, it seems that Joe enjoyed torturing his children. It seems that Joe enjoyed harming/causing pain to his own sons. It seems he had an inexplicable hatred for them. Michael represented everything Joe wanted to be, while, for example, Jermaine represented everything Joe was. This, perhaps, explains why Joe made Michael's life a living hell but was a good dad to Jermaine (according to many Jermaine was Joe's favourite child).
There's no denying that Joe always wanted to be a star. He always desired to be a performer. That was his ambition. He desperately wanted to be in the spotlight, to be a star! Maragaret Maldonaldo says, in her book, that Joe, just like Jermaine, jumped at every opportunity to be in the spotlight. When Michael was accused of pedophilia, Joe and Jermaine did everything to attract attention to themselves by giving interviews, press conferences, etc. Joe just loved the attention. Some days before Michael's 30th anniversary concert, Joe held a press conference, behind Michae's back, in which he announced that he would start selling stuff form the J5. All the journalists that went to the conference commented that Joe salivated; he desperately wanted to be the star. He desperately wanted to be the famous one. He desperately wanted his ambition of becoming a celebrity fullfilled. Like one journalist said (Friedman): "It was so clear that Joe wanted to be the star. All the journalist noticed that; he was salivating to become the star and couldn't stand the fact that Michael had become what he [Joe] always obssessively wanted to be.".
Joe always tried to pass the image and tried to feel more important than he really was. He used to hire bodyguards to go to supermarkets or to even walk down the street as if to make him and others think that he is constantly getting mobbed.

An interesting part of both Latoy's book and Margaret's, is the part i which they talk about Joe's relationship with Jackie. Joe couldn't stand his son! Joe hated him! The part in which Margaret describes their discussions is simply awful. Jackie was the playboy of the family and Joe was massively jealous of that. Like Margaret and Latoya said; a discussion between Joe and Jackiw could easily end up like a Marvin Gaye and father one. Margaret talks about how Joe looked at Jackie with anger and Latoya even says Joe didn't have feelings for his own son (and Jackie knew it).

Michael became exactly what Joe wanted to be and that's why he is always taking credit for Michael's success. Before eulogizing Michael, Joe always says he was the one behind his son's success, he was his son's success' architect. In every interview, Joe credits himself fot Michael's success and just eulogizes Michael after eulogizing himslef. He wants to think (although deep inside he knows the truth) that Michael, the kid he was always jealous of, owes his success to him. That's a way of fullfilling his ambitions and downplaying his inner frustration.

I, just like you, think Joe had an hatred for some of his children.
[Edited 12/27/09 5:08am]

MOL said:

you don't think michael was crazy? as in dysfunctional

dearmother said:

I think Michael Jackson did what we would all do if we had his billions: eccentricities. I don't think he was necessarily crazy, just different in a good way!

MOL said:

That's the word, eccentric. I agree

Arnotts said:

of course their are people in my life i feel that way about, the problem is these people are not in our lives, we dont know them, how can we decide whats true or not? all we are doing is forming our own opinion.we can sit on a computer and assume something is true or not all day, but the reality is we dont know.michael has said alot of things that i dont believe are true just like other people has said things about him that i dont believe.i dont have a problem with anybody's opinion, but mol likes to claim her opinions as facts.if mj says his father was this monster and thats what you believe cool, but you cant call the other members of his family liars because they dont feel the same.if you feel like every bad thing that happened in michael's life was caused by his family thats your opinion, but dont try to push your views on everybody else because some people dont agree.

I hear ya, Music. Back in the day, Latoya was a beautiful girl. She didn't need the cosmetic surgery.

I remember last time JANET toured AUSTRALIA - 1999 I think, she mentioned that her musical director of that tour - producer REX SALAS - was family, coz he was married to REBBIE's daughter - STACEY - I think that's her on the left, but not sure, does any1 know about this?...

Anyway, love em or hate em, they're a beautiful family (IMHO).

i think mj used to be eccentric and went into dysfunctional (all those surgeries!!!) also i read he had panic attacks

michael was not dysfunctional.
[Edited 12/27/09 18:34pm]

Oh goodness

she also donated $10,000

yeah but for me by definition body dysmorphia is dysfunctional. i dont mean crazy like he heard voices or anything like that.

lowkey said:

I so agree with you here. We all have opinions but at the end of the day they are just that opinions. I mean take the name calling that MJ suffered from his brothers and father, I think they all called each other names including MJ. There is a video on Youtube of the 17 yr old MJ calling his brother, Randy an "ape", of course it was said in jest but it just showed everything his brothers was capable of so was MJ. I doubt it was always MJ against his brothers and his father. It was more like the brothers in general against their father. At the end of the day we are all outsiders and no one really knows the dynamics of any family, even if it is the most famous family in the world, who have had numerous books and articles written about them.

babybugz said:

I have that

Here's Michael's final performance with his brothers in 2001

whatsgoingon said:

We are not talking about brothers insulting each other. We are talking about A FATHER insulting A SON with REALLY mean-spirited insults. Is it, for you, OK for a father to do so?
[Edited 12/28/09 15:11pm]

MOL can we drop it now , whatever happen in the past is the past it's not going to bring Michael back sadly . I don't have a issue with us all discussing things about the family but when it consumes the whole thread it's like enough already .. sadly when people talk about the jacksons it's rarely about the music.And i'm not trying to get on your case lol but .... but enough.

JabarR74 said:

they always playing that 30th anniversary on TV one and FUSE is ALL MJ today

bboy87 said:

wait, your local? and yet no date invite? hmmm...

sosgemini said:

I thought you knew I lived in the Bay Area

mimi07 said:

Looks like she gotta lil camel toe peeking thru. how YOU doing Toy?!

ViintageJunkiie said:

I have to admit, she was looking mildly fuckable recently



there, I said it!

babybugz said:

Mike´s so beautiful here. Can a man look cooler than this?

bboy87 said:

That first picture, I'd hit...that second picture? not so much