BanishedBrian said:

"Britney is basically MJ without the vocal or dancing talent."- Michael had awesome song-writing skills. He also produced his own music and did arrengements. He choreographed his videos/tours and much more. He was definitely a creative force. From his charisma to his trademark stuff. Admit it.

To me- and to millions of people- there are a lot of better ARTISTS then MJ

MOL said:

Admit it? When have I denied it?

Like a lot of other talented artists, he had a good 10 year run and made some great music before the ideas dried up.

To me- and to millions of people- there are a lot of better ARTISTS then MJ

BanishedBrian said:

C'mon: he wasn't just like "other talented artists". Don't talk about a "10 years run". You are a Prince fan. Don't spit on your toe or I will start talking about Prince's last 20 years.

When MJ died, hundreds and hundreds of musicians/entertainers called Michael an influence, the best of the best, a genious, the greatest entertainer ever, an amazingly talented person and the list goes on and on and on and on.

But, hey: they have low standarts, don't they?*sarcasm*

In the studio, Michael wasn't a genious. But he was one on stage. No one presents a song like Michael, on stage. I don't expect you to acknowledge this, but give him credit.

MOL said:

OK, I think we're making progress now. So you acknowledge he wasn't a genius in the studio. Fair play to you.

Moving on to the stage: yes, he was a great performer and showman. Of course, it's probably a bit of an advantage when you only tour every 5 or 10 years. But don't treat that as a knock; there aren't many artists like Prince who can train a new band and put together a great tour with varied setlists at a moment's notice.

But please, if you don't think Prince has made any great music since 1989, then move along to michaeljackson.org. If Prince had retired in 1989, I wouldn't have half the respect that I do for his career body of work. For all intents and purposes, MJ did retire 20 years ago.
[Edited 9/25/09 11:58am]

MOL said:

OK, I think we're making progress now. So you acknowledge he wasn't a genius in the studio. Fair play to you.

Moving on to the stage: yes, he was a great performer and showman. Of course, it's probably a bit of an advantage when you only tour every 5 or 10 years. But don't treat that as a knock; there aren't many artists like Prince who can train a new band and put together a great tour with varied setlists at a moment's notice.

But please, if you don't think Prince has made any great music since 1989, then move along to michaeljackson.org. If Prince had retired in 1989, I wouldn't have half the respect that I do for his career body of work. For all intents and purposes, MJ did retire 20 years ago.
[Edited 9/25/09 11:58am]

BanishedBrian said:

Prince's last 20 years haven't been perfect. You do realize this, don't you? Or your bias don't allow you to see this? Next thing you're going to say is that Planet Earth is a great album.
"Of course, it's probably a bit of an advantage when you only tour every 5 or 10 years."- And you seem to be forgeting that at 20 years old, Michael had already toured 7 times. This amount of work, at such a young age, takes its tool on every human being. Maybe Michael needed to live. Maybe. But I don't see any advantage here.
"if you don't think Prince has made any great music since 1989"- I never stated this.


When you have respected musicians/entertainers saying beautiful things about Michael, I don't think you can downplay him like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaity_OLqAQ

MOL said:

I think your emotions are getting in the way here.

I never said Prince's last 20 years have been perfect, lol. In fact, I listened to PE twice when it was available as a free stream and then decided I never needed to hear it again. But in the last 20 years, Prince has blown me away at times with some great work, especially when he was in the SLAVE period. And the TRC project, while flawed, was ambitious and interesting in a way that Michael hasn't been in decades. Ditto the ONA tour, which was brilliant. And ditto Prince's mid-90s shows at Paisley Park.

The point is that Prince is a consistently interesting artist. He's inconsistent as hell, but he never loses relevance if you're a music fan (as opposed to a fan of image/pop).

Whether MJ has excuses for why he didn't or couldn't hit the road isn't my concern. We're not arguing about hypotheticals; we're arguing about what actually unfolded.

Frankly, MJ could have passed 20 years ago and his legacy wouldn't be any worse. If Prince had died 20 years ago his musical (not "pop") legacy would be drastically different and inferior.

MOL said:

I think your emotions are getting in the way here.

I never said Prince's last 20 years have been perfect, lol. In fact, I listened to PE twice when it was available as a free stream and then decided I never needed to hear it again. But in the last 20 years, Prince has blown me away at times with some great work, especially when he was in the SLAVE period. And the TRC project, while flawed, was ambitious and interesting in a way that Michael hasn't been in decades. Ditto the ONA tour, which was brilliant. And ditto Prince's mid-90s shows at Paisley Park.

The point is that Prince is a consistently interesting artist. He's inconsistent as hell, but he never loses relevance if you're a music fan (as opposed to a fan of image/pop).

Whether MJ has excuses for why he didn't or couldn't hit the road isn't my concern. We're not arguing about hypotheticals; we're arguing about what actually unfolded.

Frankly, MJ could have passed 20 years ago and his legacy wouldn't be any worse. If Prince had died 20 years ago his musical (not "pop") legacy would be drastically different and inferior.

What some people here seem to forget is that Prince at least had / has the potential, and also felt brave and free enough, to develop himself as an artist.
He might have been less commercially succesfull since the (mid) nineties, but as a composer, songwriter and musician he had seemed to found joy in playing traditional R&B, jazz and soul, both live and on an album like The Vault, he could rock out if he wanted too (on Gold and Chaos and Disorder) or experiment with jazz-rock / fusion on The Rainbow Children, without caring too much about commercial succes.
And why look to his 'lesser nineties'? He made a quirky, playfully, breezy, european-influenced album (Parade) in 1986. Taking his artistic freedom, instead of going for mainstream-concessions.

MJ has always seemed OVER-obsessed with commercial succes. Like he wanted to sell even more albums then he did with Thriller.
It werent creative and artistic values that were prevalent for him, but numbers, record sales... the bigger the better, quantity over quality. In essence, MJ did stop to evolve as a musician after Thriller... he only wanted to go for more succes, more sales, more stardom. Thats not what being a musician is about.

Of course, it made him the biggest and most popular entertainer in the world (like many here seem to repeat to a point its gets tiresome and annoying), but also a very empty one, without real soul. A sad, pathetic person lost in his one fairytales.

What some people here seem to forget is that Prince at least had / has the potential, and also felt brave and free enough, to develop himself as an artist.
He might have been less commercially succesfull since the (mid) nineties, but as a composer, songwriter and musician he had seemed to found joy in playing traditional R&B, jazz and soul, both live and on an album like The Vault, he could rock out if he wanted too (on Gold and Chaos and Disorder) or experiment with jazz-rock / fusion on The Rainbow Children, without caring too much about commercial succes.
And why look to his 'lesser nineties'? He made a quirky, playfully, breezy, european-influenced album (Parade) in 1986. Taking his artistic freedom, instead of going for mainstream-concessions.

MJ has always seemed OVER-obsessed with commercial succes. Like he wanted to sell even more albums then he did with Thriller.
It werent creative and artistic values that were prevalent for him, but numbers, record sales... the bigger the better, quantity over quality. In essence, MJ did stop to evolve as a musician after Thriller... he only wanted to go for more succes, more sales, more stardom. Thats not what being a musician is about.

Of course, it made him the biggest and most popular entertainer in the world (like many here seem to repeat to a point its gets tiresome and annoying), but also a very empty one, without real soul. A sad, pathetic person lost in his one fairytales.

If Prince had died 20 years ago, his discography would have few flaws:
# 1978: For You
# 1979: Prince
# 1980: Dirty Mind
# 1981: Controversy
# 1982: 1999
# 1984: Purple Rain
# 1985: Around the World in a Day
# 1986: Parade
# 1987: Sign o' the Times
# 1988: Lovesexy
# 1989: Batman

In 1990, though, he started making CDs for himself. Only himself.

If Prince had died 20 years ago, his discography would have few flaws:
# 1978: For You
# 1979: Prince
# 1980: Dirty Mind
# 1981: Controversy
# 1982: 1999
# 1984: Purple Rain
# 1985: Around the World in a Day
# 1986: Parade
# 1987: Sign o' the Times
# 1988: Lovesexy
# 1989: Batman

In 1990, though, he started making CDs for himself. Only himself.

MOL said:

Well I'm glad he made some music for himself instead of the pop world, because he has some good tastes.

MOL said:

....and me.

BanishedBrian said:

Another thing that kills me is to conotate Michael with pop, exclusively. He was New-Jackswing, R&B, some Rock, etc..

Bullshit. Without soul... pathetic... BS!

That is your view.

Nineties and 00's MJ did give me the creeps. Lypsynching, his band using prerecorded tapes, letting New Jack Swing / plastic R&B producers produce his albums, kids on stage, ballerina's on stage, bandmembers with masks on stage.

Anyone with a soul can see MJ wasnt enjoying himself on stage anymore in the nineties and later on.

Anyone with a soul can hear MJ was only obsessed with 'stardom' on his albums after Thriller.

That so many people, like you, still seemed to think he was 'the greatest' in that period, shows how much you did let fool yourself by fake emotions, stadium tricks and superficiality in general.

Riverpoet31 said:

Co-sign.

I have said it several times before, I don't hate Michael Jackson. He is THE 'number 1 mainstream mega-superstar'... lol. And in that 'context' he has done a great job.
The effects you are describing: people stopping traffic, immitating his dance moves is a result of that popularity.
And the fact that millions of people were willing to pay for his later tours, knowing he would lypsynch most of the songs, illustrates that 'mass mainstream popularity' too.

But to me PERSONALLY a musician lypsynching, and a band playing prerecorded music, are a big turn off. I love it more when a singer can really touch you with his or her live-vocals, and a band are playing so well together it creates a certain 'kind of magic'. Different strokes for different folks.

The same goes with all the extra's during MJ's latests tours: choirs, ballerina's and children. Some might love it, thats their choice, but personally i considered it a lot of 'window-dressing' for performances lacking real soul. Its like watching a formula blockbuster movie: big actor names, lavish special effects, maybe nice superficial entertainment for 90 minutes or so, but its ultimately leaving me 'cold'.

As I said, different strokes for different folks. I respect what MJ has achieved as a mainstream artist and I see that his worldwide popularity and succes is a phenomenon, but he simply just doesnt 'touches' me like dozens and dozens of others musicians and artists who keep it more 'pure IMO', do.

No he couldn't play guitar or piano, he couldn't even read music. But he sang songs asking us to "pray for all the lost children" he told us "to change the world by changing ourselves" he taught us "there's a place in your heart and I know that it is love" he advised us to "heal the world" he reassured us "we are not alone" he asked us "to make a little space to make a better place.." "he asked what more can we give" he told us that "WE ARE THE WORLD."

[Edited 9/25/09 14:10pm]

Riverpoet31 said:

Thank you for your words and respect for MJ as an artist. Of course people experience things differently. I too don't like mainstream music much, I don't even like the Thriller album that much, but MJ's talents were exceptional. I've seen fantastic acrobatic hib hop dancers and the like but I've never seen anyone move so fluidly without the acrobatics, as MJ did. I don't like ALL his music, but the stuff that I do love is engraved in me. So what he sounded like "live" or whether he lip synched or not I don't care!!!!! The MJ phenomena is part of my life and me as along with billion others. I've been listening to him since I was 5! (I also love Prince by the way!)

I don't think MJ was over obsessed with commercial success. The WORLD was over obsessed with Michael. We also collectively judged and crucified him at every chance we got, highlighting & publicizing all his weaknesses and failures.

I just wish that in his death people would appreciate him for who and what he was and respect what he gave to the billion who did love him. Who else can bring millions of strangers together to cry for the loss of someone that was part of so many of us? We have lost someone very special and we don't care about his weaknesses or faults we only remember what he gave us.

No he couldn't play guitar or piano, he couldn't even read music. But he sang songs asking us to "pray for all the lost children" he told us "to change the world by changing ourselves" he taught us "there's a place in your heart and I know that it is love" he advised us to "heal the world" he reassured us "we are not alone" he asked us "to make a little space to make a better place.." "he asked what more can we give" he told us that "WE ARE THE WORLD."

I could go on and on but the MAIN message Michael brought through his music was one of love and peace. Something the world does not see a lot of these days. And not something a lot of people sing about either.
[Edited 9/25/09 14:10pm]

Bohemian67 said:

Michael knew how to play piano and guitar, but not in a professional level. He started his career, in J5, playing percussion instruments. He also made arrangements.