Riverpoet31 said:

[That's a terrible thing to say snip - luv4u]

cdcgold said:

but he's right.

Timmy84 said:

and he was more concerned about getting high than having them help him get better. two way street.

xperience319 said:

he's right. at least speaking from this addicts perspective. only i make the decision to stop using drugs no doctor, friend or other person does that for me.

ehuffnsd said:

Whatever! Bottom line is that law enforcement will charge Dr. Murray at least for involuntary manslaughter. Other docs such as Dr. Klein and the pharmacies, who prescribed such high dosages of these dangerous meds in the 1st place, r under the probe as well.

Just curious: How many of you here would have referred to MJ, in normal conversation or personal description, as a "drug addict" prior to June 25th?

cdcgold said:

LOL! Pot calling the kettle....

Yes, there would be no death, charges etc without the addiction. But, that does not excuse these doctors for enabling an addict. Michael paid with his life and these doctors will have to pay some type of price, too.

SefraNSue said:

me

The difference between Michael's case and an accidental overdose that drug addicts typically die of:


Michael Jackson's Medical Homicide: What The Coroner's Announcement Really Means
Newsweek

Michael Jackson’s death took a bizarre turn this afternoon when the Los Angeles County Coroner’s office announced it’d found the anesthetic propofol, usually used in general surgery, and two other sedatives to have caused the singer’s death in June. The drugs were no surprise—court testimony earlier this week established early on that Jackson was on myriad medications the day he died. The big shock came when the coroner announced that the death was being labeled a homicide.

It's important to note that homicide indicates that Jackson was killed; it does not, necessarily, mean he was murdered (homicide with intent to kill); many previous medical homicide cases have involved euthanasia. The Los Angeles County DA has not yet announced murder or manslaughter charges against Jackson's physician,Conrad Murray, who admits to giving Jackson the drugs.

Besides the fact that it made Jackson family whisperings of a conspiracy sound slightly less crazy, the homicide announcement left us wondering: what does medical homicide even mean? How do you draw the line between medical homicide and malpractice? And is as bad as it sounds?

By classifying this death as a homicide, what is the Los Angeles County Coroner’s Office saying about the actions of Jackson’s doctor?
What they’re alleging is that [Michael Jackson’s doctor] gave [Jackson] a medication for a non-medical reason and that caused the death…The reason they can classify this as a homicide is that there is simply no medical reason for this drug to have been administered. Suppose he was in surgery, and the doctor had given him too much medication. That’s a different situation which would probably be signed off on as an accident. But in this situation, it’s clearly a homicide.

In general, how do you define a medical homicide? What makes it different from medical malpractice?
There are five ways that forensic pathologists categorize deaths: natural, accidental, homicide, suicide or undetermined. Essentially, homicide means that somebody has caused the death of another person…In terms of medical homicide specifically, I think the simplest way to say it is that it’s a medical decision that’s outrageous, that you could not justify your actions medically. Or you just go to extremes, like deciding to do an operative procedure for which you don’t have the support, doing an operation on your kitchen table. That’s essentially the way to say it: if you have a medical situation, where you’re using things inappropriately and have no medical justification, that’s homicide.

Is it difficult, in medical situations, to draw a line between accident and homicide? Are there cases that fall in between?
Usually, it’s actually really simple. If the doctor makes a mistake, you have records and other people who were in the room, and it would mostly be classified as malpractice. If it’s reasonable, and you screw up, it’s not going to be homicide. When you do something that’s really out there, that makes absolutely no medical sense at all, something like this, that’s when it’s no longer malpractice.

What about the Jackson case clearly indicates it was a homicide?
Even though there was no intention to kill, what he did was so beyond what normal people would consider reasonable medicine that it gets classified as a homicide. There was no medical justification and, besides that, he was using an anesthetic without an anesthesiologist. So not only do you have no medical justification, you also don’t have the right support system in place.


Will it be possible for the doctor to argue his case as a medical mistake, a case of negligence, not homicide?
You just can’t argue this one. Here’s the problem question for him: what is the medical justification for giving him this drug? And that’s where they’ve got him, because there is no medical reason for the situation he was in. He wasn’t even doing an operative procedure and there was no anesthesiologist. Moreover, he’s an internist. Even if the drug were warranted, the conditions would be inappropriate. It’s not his specialty, its not internal medicine and there were no support personnel.

How often do medical homicide cases come up in forensic pathology?
Very rarely. You do get some situations where doctors do medical procedures that are not recognized, causing the death of a patient, but most of these are medical malpractice. Most of the homicide cases that I know of are euthanasia, which is a bit different. It just gets to the point that, for something to be categorized as homicide, it would have to be something really gross, where there’s no real justification for what they are doing.

How does the Jackson case fit into the history of forensic pathology?
It’s completely unusual, not something that anyone, myself included, would ever expect to encounter. The only cases called homicide, that I know of, were where it was intended [the euthanasia cases]. But there’s nothing to this level.
http://blog.newsweek.com/...means.aspx
[Edited 8/24/09 23:06pm]

Riverpoet31 said:

I agree - he was his own worst enemy.
We're not talking about the music or the musician here
we're talking about his total disrespect for his own body and that's what killed him

Timmy84 said:

Maybe not suicidal, but let's not pretend that Michael didn't have a problem with painkillers and sedatives. I think there was a lack of responsibility on both sides of the issue, but given how passionate people are in their support for Michael, this is going to turn into a one sided circus, with a lot of people asserting irrational claims with a very narrow view, and not assigning him any responsibility at all for how his own decisions helped contribute to his untimely death.

I don't think fan support has anything to do with LAPD launching a manslaughter investigation against Murray. It's not like MJ had a good history with California law enforcement so they weren't one of his fans. LAPD has all the facts and we don't. If they want to determine this as a homicide they have every right to do so. & blaming Michael at this point is moot imo considering the fact that he is dead and is not here to hear any of these accusations.

Ottensen said:

I don't doubt MJ's personal issues with prescription drugs. MJ's state of mind at that point is totally irrevelant. The point is that doc knew better!! He's the medical expert. 1st he told investigators that after administering the drug he left MJ to use the bathroom for a couple of minutes then came back to find him dead. Then later changed his report stating that he instead left MJ's home to go to his office to answer phone calls. No cadiologist, no anethesiologist, not even a nurse to assist him. Malpractice isn't even in the vocabulary on this 1.

Ottensen said:

Might be but the doctor is not showing himself to be of good judgment changing stories and such. Sure he'll be able to present his side but his actions to me look more fishy and suspect than what he or his attorney may try to say in court.

Well, LaToya was half-right...

There is no doubt Michael had an addiction. He was even in rehab for it. BUT...this a two lane street. Michael allowed the doctor to give them the drugs but the doctor was also giving them to him. It's like if someone wants to kill themselves, and so you shoot them in the head. Your still going to jail for manslaughter. Michael Jackson paid his price. Now it's time for Conrad Murray pay his.
[Edited 8/25/09 0:51am]

Not to hate or anything but i think fans should expect a similair defense from Dr Murray that MJ had so don't be surprised. Im sure his defense will bring up MJ's past drug problems and addictions with proof in order to create reasonable doubt if this goes to trial. Remember in the MJ trial the defense focused on past behaviors of the family in order to create that reasonable doubt.

Just like ppl 4 years ago were saying what does that have to do with the boy saying he was molested you will be saying the same thing. What does Michael's past drug use have to do with him dying June 25th?

Ottensen said:

I do hear what you're saying. It sounds like it was just a matter of time. Whether you have a trained doctor or not, when dealing with drugs, and especially a powerful drug like propofol, at some point the luck runs out. It happened on Dr. Murray's watch, and he'll have to pay the piper. But, if it wasn't him, it would've been some other doctor. Or MJ might have eventually OD'd on a cocktail of meds by himself, like Heath Ledger. Very sad.

It seems to me that the dr should be much more culpable than Michael. Ok, Michael was an addict. The dr wasn't. Addicts are addicts because they are unable to control the habit.

It would be like the dr sitting in the room with an alcoholic who the DR has gotten wasted and giving him more and more alcohol until he dies from alcohol poisoning. Or a drug dealer sitting in the back room with a junkie who is clearly about to OD giving him or her another shot of heroin.

Some drs are no better than drug dealers and should be prosecuted as such.

It makes no sense. Murray is all "I'm gonna wean him off propofol" then he gives him all these different drugs in a short time frame and ultimately gives him propofol on top of all these drugs. Then fucks off to make phone calls when he should be observing, i believe he new what he'd done and was trying to cover his ass.

What a disaster.

I hope people realize that the official coroner report is still sealed and the report that is being shown is a leaked statement which Dr Murray gave to the police about what happened on the night/morning of MJ death.

There are obvious holes in this story, for instance why would MJ still be asking for propolfol at 10:40 in the morning when he was suppose to be up and getting ready for his rehersals? Most people who suffer from insomania give up trying to sleep once it reaches a certain time especially if they have things to do.

this is all so sad and was completely avoidable

that doctor needs to be prosectued or maybe someone will get his ass if he has the courage to walk the streets.

i feel sick, how can a doctor be so negligent. even if michael begged for this he's NOT the doctor and and he's not INJECTING himself with this stuff.

he was surrounded but greedy bastards, he needed more people around who cared about his well being *sigh*

whatsgoingon said:

i agree- its not the full legitimate report- and those drugs like lorezapam and ativan- you can take every 4 hours. - they don't even last in your system that long- they problably were not even present for the autopsy. and further more- I don't know if that list of drugs is clear cause that family of drugs is very powerful- they should have at the very least relaxed him alot- if someone takes ativan after one hour they should be relaxed enough to sleep for at least 4-6 hours.

yes there are holes in this story that bring up more questions...HELL is gonna rise when the full report is released

mimi07 said:

exactly what I think too. I think its devastating to know that his death could had been avoided, had he selected a more COMPETENT doctor...but thats unfortunate. I do know one thing, that doctor can kiss his practice and career goodbye.

ehuffnsd said:

No, he's not. The man had serious insomnia and anxiety and by 10am he STILL hadn't gotten any sleep. People get desperate when they're that tired but even if he did, it's up to the DOCTOR in the room to take care of his patient, not keep hurling drugs into his system until something "works" then LEAVE the room.

As if that isn't negligent enough, he waits 86 minutes to call 911 while he rings around trying to cover his own horrible error - that's got nothing to do with Michael being an addict or whatever you think.

Doctors Oath states: ...to practice and prescribe to the best of my ability for the good of my patients, and to try to avoid harming them. I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan.

Whatever you think of Michael, it is NOT his fault his doctor killed him.
[Edited 8/25/09 6:16am]

chocolatehandles said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Because they didnt want to be off the payroll by saying no

chocolatehandles said:

Even if that was the case...it was not Michael that injected himself with the meds. I said in the past if he had just had a hit of some good J he would have been alright.