Superstition said:

yes! you can totally see it in this video, i love it

BabyBeMine said:

I think its pretty obvious that MJ didn't exactly have the most normal ubringing that other men in general do have.

Coming into showbiz at such an early age leaves different effects on people, and its no different in the case of MJ. MJ wasn't allowed to be a kid, and was seen a cash cow for all these music executives around him. That probably created a very sad individual who wanted to be free from the pressure that surrounded him and be just like any other kid.

To me MJ is a person who was suffering from arrested development, and I don't think he did anything wrong to those kids.

BabyBeMine said:

Rebbie did accompany Mike to the trial. A couple of times, at least. And you don't know how close/estranged the family members were, if at all. All the time there's a pic that surfaces of the family, Michael included, all together.

1992 Rebbie said she had not seen her brother in 3 years. Tito admitted in a recent interview that the familly did attempt a intervention and was not let in the house. Mansion

BabyBeMine said:

That was 1992. They are a big, busy family. They did stuff after 1992 (including Rebbie releasing an album on Michael's label in 1998 or something like that), and were together at the trial (which contradicts an earlier statement by you).

As far as an intervention, well... maybe Michael did tell them to leave. I've slammed the door on family members before. I've hung up the phone on them.. they've done it to me. It doesn't mean I'm estranged from them.

What exactly is your point in all of this? That he molested a kid because he and his family had riffs? He forgave Jermaine for writing a song about him and he forgave Latoya for basically being manipulated into calling him a child molester, so I would say the roots ran pretty deep in that family.
[Edited 8/23/09 21:52pm]

What is my point?

My point is the shy,nice MJ to me is just BS.

Let me ask you a question? What is your opinion of Mj's friend Frank Tyson saying MJ and him drank wine from soda cans back when Frank was 13.

Frank defends MJ but forgot adding that actually hurts MJ

Its the complete picture that i look at


1. Alcohol to Minors - You can say the 2005 accuser is lying but MJ's good friend Frank Tyson also said he and MJ drank wine together and Frank was only 13 years old.

2. Accused of molestation - The average man in the world does not get accused of this by 3 boys accused MJ of this. Jordy, Maids son and Gavin.

3.Sleeping in same bed as 13 year old boys not your own - The average man does not do this and if he did im sure a entire neighborhood would be like what da hell. This is not normal.

4. His history with the ladies - Brooke Shields. MJ was not interested in her at all sexually. Tatiana from 1988 was kicked off the Bad tour. The excuse that MJ's manager Frank Dileo kicked her off cause she kissed MJ is a WEAK EXCUSE

Any man that loves women and entertainer would have loved that kiss and tried to hook up with Tatiana. MJ called the shots and could have kept her on the tour.

BabyBeMine said:[quote]Its the complete picture that i look at


1. Alcohol to Minors - You can say the 2005 accuser is lying but MJ's good friend Frank Tyson also said he and MJ drank wine together and Frank was only 13 years old.

2. Accused of molestation - The average man in the world does not get accused of this by 3 boys accused MJ of this. Jordy, Maids son and Gavin.

3.Sleeping in same bed as 13 year old boys not your own - The average man does not do this and if he did im sure a entire neighborhood would be like what da hell. This is not normal.

4. His history with the ladies - Brooke Shields. MJ was not interested in her at all sexually. Tatiana from 1988 was kicked off the Bad tour. The excuse that MJ's manager Frank Dileo kicked her off cause she kissed MJ is a WEAK EXCUSE

Any man that loves women and entertainer would have loved that kiss and tried to hook up with Tatiana. MJ called the shots and could have kept her on the tour. She was kicked off cause it turned him off.


Forget about the big things and look at the little things. How come MJ only had a relationship and let everyone know after the 1993 charges? How come he didnt do that in 1984, 1985, 1986,1988 thru 1992. You didnt see MJ kissing females on the MTV awards before Jordy Chandler. Did you

BabyBeMine said:

You do know the guy is dead right? I can never understand why people can hate someone this bad if they never even meet him.

BabyBeMine said:[quote]

BabyBeMine said:

http://www.mjj2005.com/ko...e=threaded

Tyson also rejected the prosecution's other allegations against Jackson.

The prosecution has alleged that he and Jackson showed the accuser and his brother pornography on the Internet, but Tyson says he and Jackson were out of the room when the boys found the Web sites themselves.

He said the pop star expressed concerns when they did. "He says, "'Frank, they can't do that. I do not want this coming back on me,' " Tyson told McFadden.

Tyson also denied that Jackson has ever forced, given or offered alcohol to children. "He would never do that," he said.

He did acknowledge that Jackson drank alcohol out of soda cans when he was around children. But he said the pop star did so precisely to protect the children around him -- so they would not see him drinking alcohol and feel that they should try it themselves.

"He is known all around the world," Tyson said. "He does not want to influence a child, to -- especially drink alcohol."

BabyBeMine said:[quote]Its the complete picture that i look at




When and where was this stated? Because this is the first I have ever heard about it. I'm not saying you're lying, I would just like a source... one that isn't "The Sun", "The Globe", "The Enquirer" or something like that.



The average man also doesn't have random women claiming to be the father of their child, but it happens. The average man also isn't a celebrity from the age of 11 and isn't the most famous man in the world.



It's not normal, you're right. What it also isn't is, in itself, criminal. A bad choice with obvious dire consequences as he found out, but not criminal.



So?



Well that certainly seals and settles it then?

He was different, no question about it. But the bottom line is there has not been a single soul who has stepped forward out of the blue with nothing to gain with a credible story about Jackson and child molestation. A fired maid, a fired security guard, a mother who's sued people before, a father who gave his son questionable drugs, who spoke of suing Jackson and getting everything he wanted (with no mention of justice for his supposedly-molested son).

Also, child abuse allegations are an easy thing to accuse someone of, but very hard to prove or disprove. However, in the second case, the fact that nobody could keep a story straight (and would even elicit snickering and laughing from the jury) is a tell-tale sign to me that something isn't right.

BabyBeMine said:[quote]

BabyBeMine said:

1. You are quoting what someone said someone said. Not what Frank actually said in court or in any interview.

2. 2 (not 3) accused Michael. In the first instance the claimed abuse did not proceed to trial, and it was later seen that the description that should have been a nail in the coffin was incorrect. The second accusation did go to trial and Michael was cleared of ALL charges, not the majority, not one or two but ALL. That has to say something about the credibility of the charges brought.


3. Agree this is not normal. However, Michael did often say that he would sleep on the floor. Regardless such behaviour was reckless no mater how innocent as as history shows us leave him open to be exploited.

4. Just because he didn't have sex with either of the ladies you mentioned doesn't automatically make him guilty. And just because you don't know of any sexual activity of Michael's with women (beyond what has been stated by both Lisa Marie Presley and friends of Debbie Rowe) doesn't mean he was therefore guilty. If you actually dug around there were rumours of Michael being involved with Karen Faye during 1986. There have also been many reports of Michael being linked with many women - but just as you will dismiss these, some fans will be convinced of them.

At the end of the day, if you sincerely think that you want to explore the facts of the cases then I recommend trawling through the court records (not the media's reporting of it) and also pick up Ian Halperin's book, as it gives you a warts and all view of the accusations with surprising discoveries.

But really, at the end of the day it sounds as if you are convinced of Michael's guilt - and if so, so be it. But trying to convince other's is just as pointless as die hard fans trying to convince you of his innocence.

At the end of the day, each fan has probably had that moment where they wondered "what if it is true?". I know I did. I was ready to pack up all my MJ belongings and never listen nor support him ever again if I felt he was guilty and if he was convicted. But the more you read on the cases, the more dubious it is. This isn't to say that Michael's actions weren't naive at best and reckless at worst. He did leave himself open, and bring on a lot of it himself. But as someone who has trawled through the trial transcripts and depositions, I have come to think that Michael was indeed innocent.

To base your judgement on accusations alone, is just as misleading and akin to calling Prince a baby killer as a result of his actions surrounding the birth of his child. Just as ridiculous a claim.

Swa

bboy87 said:[quote]

BabyBeMine said:

I actually find it hilarious that Brooke and Tatiana would suddenly claim MJ wanted to either marry them or "pledge their love" to him now that he's not here to hear it.

People on the transcript site did the time frame of the phone tapes and it's estimated that he first started to be intimate with that Arab girl was during Bad tour because he discusses tour dates on them. In The Closet is most likely about her so the time frame with her on the tapes is about '88-91/92. So I now see why Tatiana got in trouble for kissing him.

StillDirrty said:

And that FURTHER explains why Frank kicked her off if the timeline's correct.

^Yup. & Tatiana most likely didn't know about her because Michael said that very few knew about it. I imagine so because they could have gotten in BIG trouble for that. Those people don't play when it comes to customs and arranged marriages. I've heard stories from the Middle East of girls getting killed for not being a virgin.

Timmy84 said:

I agree. Not only that, but as a culture we are really f***** up if we think that a man, just for the fact that he's a man, doesn't have any morals and would have sex with any girl just because she is hot. I don't think so! There are guys with standards who repect women,and above all, repect themselves and their bodies.

Michael was just not a promiscous guy and whatever he did or didn't do sexually speaking, he kept it to himself. The way it should be!

Here is the article of Frank Tyson saying he and MJ drank wine together when he was 13 and they had conversations about sex with women which is strange considering he was only 13 years old. He was actually trying to defend MJ but i guess he accidentally slipped up and spilled the truth about the alcohol.

http://www.contactmusic.c...r-as-a-kid

BabyBeMine said:

Weird that the only record on file is total hearsay - the report only notes what was supposedly told and all quotes are attributed to LISA PHILLIPS the Celebrity Justice reporter. No actual direct quotes are given to Tyson. Sorry but I need more direct quotes from Tyson, not hearsay. Is this covered any where else?

Swa

BabyBeMine said:

Exactly what I thought. That's hardly a reliable source. You'll have to take that with a grain of salt.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...DcViUBZeAs
http://www.youtube.com/wa...DjdMFus3JE
This guy makes some great points. Ugly motherfucker tho.

I think it's clear. Anything that's very negative and points to MJ's guilt will be hearsay and tabloids. Anything thats positive is not. You make it seem like the GQ article is the bible to the truth. Isn't some of that info from Anthony Pellicano's shady investigating. If it was the other way around you would point to him being in prison.

As for the maid not telling police. Do you honestly think Michael's security was making cake and ice cream? Sure go tell on our bose. The lady wasn't exactly powerful. A verbal threat here and there and that would prevent her from going to the police. She said MJ told her if you tell anyone i can have you taken care of.

So because of the fake image MJ displayed you will probably say MJ isnt capable of that.

Bossip has learned that detectives found marijuana in Michael Jackson’s home along with more empty drug bottles.


Detectives have found two bags of marijuana along with numerous empty drug bottles with no indication as to what was in them:

Two bags of marijuana, a bottle of temazepam (used to treat sleeplessness), empty bottles of the sedatives lorazepam and diazepam were discovered during the search. They also found four other empty pill bottles with no indication as to what may have been in them.

Detectives were concerned that, when Jackson died, he had “received an injection of an unknown medication, prior to his death,” the warrants say.

...and we thought Michael was such a sweet and innocent man! I wonder what else he does.

OldTeenager said:

Tests found he had no marijuana, heroine or cocaine in his system.

BabyBeMine said:

The key being the GQ article is mostly facts. The boy's father was on tape and mentioned NOTHING about justice for his son. Nothing about molestation. Just creating hell for Jackson.

Also, in both cases (three if you count the maid)... why did nobody ring the authorities first? Three separate allegations of abuse, and nobody picked up the phone and dialed the police?

Does this "prove" Jackson was innocent? No, it does not. Does it make me question the validity of the allegations? You bet.



So she was threatened, and instead of quietly telling the authorities she tells a tabloid?

An employee fired for theft. If he was so damn worried about what she supposedly saw why didn't he just keep her on the payroll and tell her to keep quiet? Maybe because he didn't do anything and she was lying?



What fake image? I don't expect him or anyone to be nice 100% of the time. I'm sure he got upset at times. I'm sure he did some wrong in his time and I'm sure he was only human. Seems to me YOU'RE the one putting some insane expectation on him, not the fans. However, I DO believe he was probably a hell of a lot more good-natured and kind than most people.

And no, I don't think he's innocent because he "seemed nice", nor do I think most rational people think that. You're pulling things out of your arse, sorry to say.
[Edited 8/28/09 11:13am]

OldTeenager said:

maybe the marijuana was for his chronic pain from back injury? he got during fall during performance (Didn't I read here on org MJ had an injury to his back during Thriller or the Bad era?)

As far as the Tempazepam and Ativan.. it is well known that he had insomnia and those are medications that are used to treat them. So no biggie with those meds found in his home.

Poor Michael... he's gone now, but now his privacy is suffering the ultimate invasion.

prodigalfan said:

The LA Times reported there was no marijuana, cocaine or heroine found in his system. This would have been hard to keep under wraps if it was. My guess is it probably didn't even belong to him. Could've been Murray's or belonged to who knows who else.

even if it did...

i mean, the prescribed stuff is 100000x worse. our society is so messed up

Superstition said:

yep.